Three quid a day at the full rate?
Luxury!
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£3 now. Next year how much?? And the year after??
And then it gets introduced into every other town. It's the thin end of the wedge. We get taxed quite enough thank you very much. And our wonderful Government is now threatening the people of Manchester that if they don't vote yes, then they will not get any cash to upgrade public transport. Vote for us or else...democracy at its best!!
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This I don't like about it. The package is wondeful but also over the top in some areas. I would much prefer a scaled down version with an reducted of the area covered.
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These things need sorting. Personaly I would prefer a much simpler system on a much smaller scale where that you have to pay to enter a city centre zone which may perhaps start at Salford University to West, Hulme in the South, Beswick to the East and Cheetham Hill to the north.
Residents of these zones will be extempt. Atm say if you live in Didsbury at rush hour it can take a good hour to get into town, that is only 4 miles away and there is clearly a huge problem there.
I have also noticed a lot of the cars with the vote no stickers on happily plod along outside the bus lanes beeping at me for driving in it. Yet they clearly state they are not in use at that time.
I am in the first to admit there are flaws in the proposals and that is why I am not voting yes for certain only swaying towards it, but something does need to be done about the city centre traffic and the trunks roads into it.
Stagecoach have done a very very good job of getting people out of their cars, the 86 rotue near me for example is far more frequent than it used to be and most the buses are brand new, for £10 a week that is a lot cheaper than driving into town each day.
I am also favour of more park and ride schemes.
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I just cannot see how a system that relies on having a box in the car will work. Because not everyone will have one for fairly obvious reasons. And who pays for the box in the car?
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And what about the people who live outside Manchester. What about someone who lives in Delph or Diggle and has to work in Manchester. How long would it take them to travel on public transport.
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Seems to me the simple answer may be "Don't go to Manchester", which could well be the approach of private individuals (and the contents of their wallets), and also private enterprise when considering location.
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I never get the point with Congestion Charge thing (other than raising some income for treasury).
If traffic is too much, people will become frustrated standing at traffic and they will look for alternate solutions. They may start using public transport which will reduce congestion.
So, after certain level of congestion, people themselves will start other options.
What's the point of forcing someone to pay if people don't mind spending time on traffic queue?
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At the moment lots of people visit the Trafford Centre - with a congestion charge this will cost because it's inside the outer boundary. People come from quite far to get to it too. So during the weak a drop in trade. An although I live within the M60, if I went to the Trafford Centre I'd go on the M60 so would have to pay no doubt!
This has not been thought out.
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But the charge is only peak times, so you would just avoid the TC at those times, and for many people you would drive in against the peak flow so even at peak times you might not have to pay.
As for Delph, Diggle and them funny Oldham towns the idea would be park and ride, maybe drive some where quite close say a massive car park in Oldham then whizz on a tram straight to the city centre.
I went to the TC the other day by bus and it took 45 minutes (I only live 3 miles away from it!) because of the huge amount of cars trying to get into it.
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It won't be possible to avoid going at peak times when they expand the times to be all day, which they will do before too long. Especially if the congestion reduces enough that it isn't generating the revenue they require.
This will affect my family, but we can't vote on it because we don't live in Greater Manchester. There is no way you can get from Cheshire to Stretford on public transport in less than an hour and a half, without changing at least twice, and having to pay 2 different operators. Putting more carriages on the trains won't help, because on main crewe-mcr line there isn't the capacity. I've travelled on this for the last 10 years, and by the time the train gets to stockport its rammed, heaton chapel and levenshulme is squashing room only.
I think that a city centre zone would probably be a good thing and will mean people won't drive into the centre, but having it around the M60 is madness.
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Really imo, it's totally unfair on residents within the boundary's, these folk are captive government milk-cows, virtually every time they use thier cars they are going to be charged. I think residents who are "trapped" by these schemes by virtue of where they habitate should have a reduction of thier v.e.d to offset the forced charges.
Billy
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The problem I have with these schemes is that they look good on paper and then when they get the go-ahead they find all sorts of "issues" which means that the final scheme is very different to what you originally voted for, and usually detrimental to the driver, Rattle... I'd think very carefully before you vote Yes!
Thing is, if they made the public transport better now they wouldn't need to bring it in as people would use it as their natural choice... carrot or stick? And I think that CC is the stick but they should use improvements to PT as the carrot first before considering CC!
Edited by b308 on 17/11/2008 at 16:19
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Some good replies. I used to do the Wilsmlow to Chorlton trip which is pretty much the same as Stretford. I found the train service to be very very good, even at 6pm when I left the trains were not that busy, though it does get congested between Stockport and Picciddily so I used to get off at Stockport and then get the 23 bus.
It was one of the easier public transport trips I had to make a lot.
What do you think will happen if everybody votes No? I can't see that being the end of it.
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I am voting No, for several reasons.
1. I live on a main arterial route likely to be one of the routes on which there is charging. Therefore as soon as I leave my house, I get charged. I cannot do my job withut my car (I am a Chartered Valuation Surveyor) and using a bike or public transport would mean I get only 50% of my inspections does each day at best and probably less.
2. My office is within the inner cordon (near Salford University) and yet I am not in the city centre. The inner cordon should be Trinity Way, Mancunian Way, Gt Ancoats Street.
3. Sir Howard Bernstein who really wants this, cannot drive. Several years ago he lived near me, whilst shacked up with his now wife but then girlfriend, during his divorce (I know his family pretty well - it wasn't pretty). He would have a black cab waiting for him every morning to take him into the Town Hall. Heaven forbid he should use public transport - at least Red Ken did. I have no respect for him and can have no respect for him until he either uses public transport or starts driving.
4. The overall result will be a dead city centre, businesses with no staff and Manchester looking like Detroit. A centre hole with a bagel of active economy around it. I would be buying up offices on the M60 ring road if I were you. Unlike London, Manchester does not have a real 'City' but a central business district in which many of the occupiers could relocate. I have advised many clients who were renting in the heart of the city but are now or will be looking to have owner occupied office buildings on the fringe or even some distance away. It will only get worse.
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I don't suppose it will influence the final decision but if you don't live in Greater Manchester you can still complete the survey on www.bbc.co.uk/northwesttonight.
I live in Lancashire and go into Manchester about once a month, usually at weekends but sometimes during the week. I indicated on the survey that I would be going elsewhere if the charge is introduced.
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Why the chargre isn't even applicable at weekends. It won't affect you.
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Not initially but for how long will that be the case?
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Lud the charge would be £6 if it was introduced.
To the OP, great that you won't be affected as you live in the city centre, but if you are like most people who work inside the charging zone but not the city centre you will have a choice - pay the charge or face an exhausting journey via the city on public transport as virtually all the rather scant improvements promised are aimed at getting people into Manchester city centre, not moving them efficiently across the whole of Gtr Manchester.
The claim is that fewer than 1 in 10 journeys will incur a charge but that traffic in the zone will drop by 25%.
Yes, that's what I thought as well.........
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I don;t live in the city centre, I am a good 30 minute bus ride/55 minute walk away.
NSAR I do agree with what you are saying, I just disagree with a lot of no vote people as they don't seem to know the first thing about it, many of them didn't even know the charge is peak time only and in peak flow. It is very different ot the London one.
There are issues with it though I admit, but there are also more issues with doing nothing.
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Sorry, I read your first posting as meaning city centre.
It's very different to London because it's 10 times the size of the original London zone and London has a real density of public transport options which Manchester does not and will not even if this daft scheme is voted through.
The lion's share of the transport improvements go to building about 12 miles of extra tram, much of which will run trams to replace trains!
What's on offer is badly thought out and does not address the needs of hundreds of thousands of people who will be given Hobson's choice of pay up or face an impractical journey to work.
What's really disgraceful is that none of the investment would go to introducing measures that are proven to improve traffic flows such as no-stop zones (red routes) and addressing poor junction design which creates pinch points.
All of this is in the Eddington Report, but seemingly disregarded by the architects of this scheme.
Edited by Nsar on 17/11/2008 at 21:55
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I disagree. Manchester city centre is easily navigable at busy times (and I mean busy - it was bearable at 5pm on December 23rd last year coming out of the Printworks car park). What's the point in using a congestion charge? It'll just stop me and a considerable majority of people from using the city centre, which is actually a very nice place.
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The trams would be a lot more frequent than the trains though. I would never have used Stretford railway station to go Bury in the old days, now I often use the tram to go there if I am meeting up with my Rawtanstall mates.
I was on Upperbrook St this evening and the traffic was just laugh, just bumper to bumper stationary cars and I bet it would be like that all the way down Kingsway heading to Wilsmlow. I wonder how many of them people realise there was a 20 minute train they could have caught?
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I am well aware of the times that it will operate, initially. But I am suspicious that it is the thin end of the wedge and that it will be extended to other times, especially if the income is below budget because of people "evading" the charge by travelling at other times.
Also, back in 1997 NuLab promised a big expansion of tramway building. The only new system in England approved by them is the one in Nottingham and now they have made the congestion charge a condition of extending Manchester Metrolink; we all know about the current financial situation but there was a marked reluctance previously to invest in improved public transport, which could have acheived modal shift with carrots rather than sticks.
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I should of course add that the money available is up to £3 Billion". Up to can mean just £1.
Have you seen the adverts for the Yes campaign. Every possible social class is pictured except people who actually work for a living and may just possibly work somewhere within the ridiculously large charging zone.
People will be charged to go to work five miles from the city centre. Bonkers.
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Looking to merge the two threads going on on this topic - Rattle any views ?
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I was thinking the same thing as this thread isn't a passionate yes, and the other one is not a passionate no (well more passionate than this one) anyway go ahead and merge :).
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the charge would be £6 if it was introduced.
so 60p for residents if the London pattern was followed...
This system is unfair on small traders inside the zone who live outside it, and need their vehicles to shift goods. They should have a reduced rate like residents.
People just driving to work have to take it though.
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Some interesting stuff here... and I'll agree with those who say that once the system is in place - the nose of the camel is inside the tent, as it were - then they can bend the rules on times, costs etc to suit themselves.
I can't see a council ignoring the cash-cow of out-of-town visitors at weekends - thousands of folk from Surrey coming to Old Trafford, for example - for long.
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