Gentlemen -
A chap has - let us say - 5 or 6 cars kept off road. V5 left in previous owner's name in all cases. Cars offered for sale, but with the very firm condition that there is no warranty. I thought, surely that's illegal?
NOW - I checked trading standards who redirected me to "Customer Direct" who say - if you trade in cars there is no obligation to provide a guarantee, have premises or insurance. Readers of HJ on a Saturday will no doubt be aware of the obligations bona fide dealers have... but TS or customer direct had never heard of this applying in the case of the home trader.
Does anyone know if 1. customer direct are wrong and 2. if so what is the Act or clause that they can be directed to?
Cheers
BS
Edited by Pugugly on 07/11/2008 at 23:27
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>>no obligation to provide a guarantee, have premises or insurance.
All true.
>>guarantee
You don't have to provide a guarantee. However, if something goes wrong with a car you sell, the consumer can take you to court where (an element of) compensation may be awarded to the victim.
premises
Many people work from home - consultant surgeons, journalists. However, you may need planning permission to operate this sort of business from home, but this will be enforced by the planning department; you may need to pay business rates, but this will be enforced by the council.
>>insurance
Well, you don't have to have insurance to keep cars off the public road, do you? You need insurance to drive on the road. You would be wise to have public liability insurance. But not to keep cars off the road.
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I'm not sure what the OP is trying to achieve.
I don't see the difference between a "bona-fide" dealer and a guy who trades from home, except scale and formality of organisation. A man who deals in cars is, as a matter of fact, a dealer, I'd have thought. So I'd have thought the usual consumer protection statute applies.
If someone OP knows has had a raw deal they should take it to Small Claims Court and see what happens. They might also consider contacting Revenue and Customs and Department of Work and Pensions to pass on the name and address of the dealer, anonymously if preferred: someone who is a bit shy in the way he trades might also be too shy to make himself known to the authorities.
Edited by Optimist on 07/11/2008 at 15:29
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A chap has - let us say - 5 or 6 cars kept off road. V5 left in previous owner's name in all cases <<
Illegal. Substantial fine per car. Grass them up, as I doubt they'll be declaring profits to HMRC either.
Edited by Lygonos on 07/11/2008 at 23:25
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>>Many people work from home - consultant surgeons, journalists>>
What exactly is this aversion to journalists?
I don't know of any journalists who sell cars from their home base and definitely have no knowledge of consultant surgeons who undertake to supply medical services from their preferred choice of sleeping overnight for 365 days a year...:-)
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I don't see anythig untoward with that statement, S, he's just saying that for convenience' sake many people "work from home" - in the case of Consultants and Freelance Journalists thats where they'd be based - my wife used to be a Childminder and she worked from home!
I think that L may have the point that the OP is getting at... is the gentleman concerned paying his taxes as he should... is that whats bothering him I wonder?
Edited by b308 on 08/11/2008 at 07:35
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well folks the original "beef" I had was over an aggressive response when I asked if the seller's name was on the V5 and, as it wasn't, was he a trader. I could imagine him bullying some little old lady who finds the radiator exploding a day after she bought a car off him or something.
To me, you are either a trader or you are not. What is this strange grey area that some people occupy, where they just "dabble" or have a "hobby", or just "change their cars all the time"?
I really believed that if you trade in cars, whether from home or proper premises, then you have to give a 6 month guarantee. The exception, pointed out by HJ in the DT, was if you sell old cars for £400 or something so sense and reason have to prevail.
To pretend NOT to be a trader when really you are is to get out of one's obligations while reaping the benefits, eg not changing the V5 and so adding another owner to the list.
I'm not bothered if he avoids tax frankly, I am bothered about 1. him cheating customers 2. the nuisance 3. the total passivity of trading standards who are more bothered about eradicating imperial measures and going on equality training courses. 4. other stuff I've forgotten just now.
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>>>> To me you are either a trader or you are not. >>
>>
I recall that the authorities say that if you buy and sell more than four cars a year you are a trader.
If you are not sure of the legality of his activities, then report him to the various authorities - Council, HMRC, Trading Standards etc.
I don't buy this talk about "grassing people up". If he is committing an offence then he should pay the penalty. If he isn't committing an offence then he has nothing to worry about.
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his adverts read as though the author was on speed. Or if he was doing a Murray Walker impression. This person has 6 cars on a well-known auction website (ahem) and appears to be relying on bluster to avoid any inconvenient nonsense - you know, like the LAW?
However - does anyone know of the relevant Act and/or clause that stipulates what a dealer actually iis, and that business over the 6 month warranty?
ta
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I really believed that if you trade in cars, whether from home or proper premises, then you have to give a 6 month guarantee. The exception, pointed out by HJ in the DT
See the FAQ tab at the top of this page.
I think you are mixing up the statutory rights a consumer has with what a trader [any trader, not just a car trader] may or may not decide to offer in form of extra-statutory guarantees or warranties. For new cars, the EU has specified minimum statutory rights, for 2nd hand goods [including cars], UK's Dept of BERR has laid down minumum rights.
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I thank you for your clear and pithy message. However - the question is: is a dealer obliged to guarantee a car for 6 months?
Is anyone prepared to nail his to the table?
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Have a look at this, you won't get a legally binding answer on here.
tinyurl.com/6kvcyt
What is a car trader?
A car trader is a person who regularly buys and sells cars for purposes other than their own personal use. They do not have to own a company or trade from a forecourt or garage - in fact any person who regularly sells cars through classified advertisements in a newspaper or magazine (or even through a card placed in a newsagent's window) may be classed as a car 'trader' in law.
All car traders must declare in their advertising that they are a car trader by using the word agent or by some other means. Some, for example, offer P/EX (part exchange) to indicate that they are a car trader or perhaps just add the letter 'T' to the advertisement.
This distinction is very important because when buying a car from a car trader you have more rights than when buying from a private seller.
Buying from a car trader
All cars bought from any car trader come complete with an implied warranty which really is just your 3 basic statutory rights (see teacher's notes under 'Consumer Rights'). Often there is the option to purchase a warranty (guarantee), and sometimes this is offered as part of the deal. The Sale and Supply of Goods Act may give you the right to return the car and claim compensation if there are serious faults (but not always - the warranty does not cover all parts). If there is any dispute it is possible to go to an independent engineer for a report on the car's condition. On the other hand, if any faults are pointed out to you before the car is bought then you are accepting the car on that basis and cannot claim any compensation later.
No car trader can ever sell a car using the phrase sold as seen. This is a restrictive statement that implies that you have no rights (this is not true - you always retain your rights when buying from a car trader) and the Fair Trading Act makes it a criminal offence to use such phrases.
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However - the question is: is a dealer obliged to guarantee a car for 6 months? Is anyone prepared to nail his to the table?
OK, here is another slightly less pithy reply:
1. A dealer can say whatever he wants as long as it is not illegal
www.tamebay.com/2008/02/these-terms-do-not-affect-...l
2. While a dealer cannot take away your statutory rights, he does not have tot each you what those rights are.
3. Your rights are explained by HJ in his FAQ as I said before, but to save you the trouble of finding out which one, here it is:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=43
Note the reference to 6 months; during that period, it is deemed that the defects were present at time of sale and consumer does NOT have to prove that fact, whereas after 6 months [for an unspecified period thereafter] the statutory protection still applies except that the trader may [if he so wishes if he is not generous, unlike certain traders such as M&S who will give you more than the statutory minimum] now ask that the consumer prove that the defect was present at the time of sale.
updated link from HJ's FAQ:
www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/buying-selling/...l
www.berr.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf
"A traders guide: the law relating to the supply of goods and services"
Other links:
whatconsumer.co.uk/it%e2%80%99s-second-hand-%e2%80.../
whatconsumer.co.uk/buying-a-car/
whatconsumer.co.uk/buying-online/
www.tamebay.com/2008/01/oft-going-after-unregister...l
www.tamebay.com/2008/07/returns-policy-highlighted...l
Edited by jbif on 08/11/2008 at 23:52
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thanks folks, I'm going to save this so I can read it at leisure. However, this is very interesting in that
1. this trader with 6 cars at no point in his ads says he is a trader
2. I won't quote directly because you'll find his ad too easily, but he very firmly says that the buyer has exactly 2 hours to return the car with faults. After that you have no comeback.
From the frantic tone and hype of his text, with the aggressive "disclaimer", I really think this dude should be shown the error of his ways.
He specialises in Vectras of recent vintage it seems, as for where he is, let's hope he doesn't go for country walks bar t'at.
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.. I really think this dude should be shown the error of his ways.
I saw your original post
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=68...8
and did a "other items by the seller" check.
It seemed to me too that he was a trader.
The way to show the dude the error of his ways is to report his restrictive practices to ebay, who do not like traders pretending to be private sellers and taking away the rights of consumers.
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now this is really annoying. Been to the auctions but didn't fancy anything, so checked autotrader online, filtering private sellers only. In OVER HALF of the calls I made, the response to the question "Is it your name on the V5?" was "er...... no."
It's me father in law's and he's not well so he don't want anyone goin round
I just bought it and I'm emigratin so there wasnt no point.
It was me wifes company car
etc etc
tut tut I think autotrader should be able to do something, their website is very sophisticated. Some of these sellers must be well dodgy. Pity the Irish dude from that other post didn't ring one of them - all scammers together!
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