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madf totally agree! never let him drive again, cos those who have said about lack of room etc in prison are right! Mannatree, I know that road well, and all i can say both those idiots (yep I mean the policeman as well) are lucky to be alive. I also noted that the police officer makes a comment about the guys poor riding skills early on THEN lets him drive at those speeds putting him and every other road user they went past in danger for at least another 12 miles! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I am SO cross
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I've watched the film now - connection was slow earlier. He was certainly asking to be nicked and the 30 and 40 limit behaviour was definitely beyond the 'normal' juvenile behaviour of motorcycle speeders who usually have the wit to leave the 100mph stuff for clear open roads. Interesting that the copper didn't seem to be having any doubts about keeping up though.
A severe rollocking, a big fine and a meaningful ban would definitely be in order - I mean a year or more, you can get 6 months for habitually doing 35-38 in a 30, as happened to a colleague. I wouldn't even draw the line at confiscating his bike if there was provision for it.
Still other people I'd rather see in jail though.
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>>A severe rollocking, a big fine and a meaningful ban would definitely be in order
For the BiB I guess you mean, as a rollocking isn't really a punishment for an individual...
For the motorcyclist the world would be better if he had a ban for several years.
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Both bikers a disgrace to all us other 2-wheelers.
Cop should have backed off and got the helicopter up.. Could easily have ended in someone's death, especially where roads were wet. Very lucky when filtering at the roundabout. Came through the narrow gap between the cars at 30 to 40 mph. Both very lucky. Biker should be locked up. Cop should be back on Panda cars.
Ted. ex m/cycle cop.
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Should've deployed the stinger...... :-;
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Should've previewed my post...... ;-)
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Read this in the print edition of MCN. As feeble excuses go, it's in the "dog ate my homework" category.
Everytime some bombhead like him does stupid stuff like this, we move another step closer to a bhp limit on new bikes, like they have in France.
140 on an empty, dry motorway in broad daylight would still be unacceptable to most (albeit comparatively safe); nearly the ton in a 30 is lifetime ban territory imo.
Let's remember, there are plenty of intelligent and otherwise fairly reasonable folk out there who would like nothing better than to ban motorcycles altogether. Giles Coren in the Times is one such - I recall a column of his a few weeks ago along those lines.
Agree though that the pursuit was not well handled. Would "picking him up later" not have been an option here?
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Reading several articles, this man had been reported repeated for this type of driving. I did think the following biker was also riding in a fairly hairy fashion. However, people who are scared because they are being followed are unlikely to constantly perform wheelies!
Hate to think how this man drove a car if his contempt for the rules of the road while biking and vunerable is his general attitude to roadcraft.
Edited by deepwith on 07/11/2008 at 10:48
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A years ban and a heavy fine for sure. (Ban anyone longer and most likely they take to the road again completely illegally, no licence, MOT or insurance).
BUT the police cyclist copied every single "dangerous" act, and in several cases placing himself and others in more peril (e.g. at least twice the cop was the filling in a nasty car sandwich between the car he was overtaking and the oncoming vehicle). What are the dual speed readouts with one not working? Was that the calibrated speedo off? I would hazard that there were better ways to stop this trail much earlier on and the cop decided to go on for a bit of extended testing, which was videoed and leaked to the general public.
Why no siren, why no flashing lights? Gaining evidence? I hope to never be attacked in the street with this cop around. He'll no doubt wait to intercede until he gets enough evidence for a solid murder charge.
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Thinking about, the cop was just as bad. Surely it should have been stopped earlier? A police motorcyclist can't defy the laws of physics any more than lesser mortals can.
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Don't forget that a video camera does not give a true refection of close up activity. The image is in the position before the camera. So a 'tight' overtake might not be quite so 'tight' as it appeared. I call it the tv cricket pitch effect.
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As someone who has had to sit in coroners court infront of a young, very dead biker's family, who was driving at somewhat less than 140 and give evidence about the last moments of his existance, I hope he is locked in a dungeon somewhere for a long time such is his ignorance about the conept of danger.
Along with the cop following him. Whats worse than one motorbike at over 100 mph? Answer: Two.
Ive seen on TV many times that they hang back when they consider they are causing their quarry to drive more dangerously by their persuit. Clearly someone didnt get the memo.
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Would "picking him up later" not have been an option here?
Might have had an ID problem then.
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Yet again the police come under attack (unfairly in my opinion) for trying to apprehend a lunatic. Damned if they do, damned if they don't :-(
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It does have to be said though, that in terms of skill, the rider put up quite a good show. Yes, he was playing some very slim percentages & being totally reckless with his own life (and possibly others' lives too) but he didn't crash & in the 10 minute clip I saw, looked quite considered & almost sensible in some overtakes. Strangely, the police rider (from the impression given by the video) looked none too sure on some manoeuvres to me.
Yes, he should be banned & fined heavily - but you do wonder why the police rider (from the reports I've read anyway) didn't take the opportunity to nick him when he stopped for fuel - the rider by that time had certainly committed several highly endorsable offences - why not just flash the blues & twos (or whatever they have) or stop him there & then?
Prison (which may yet come about - the police are apparently thinking of bringing supplementary charges on top of those resulting in the initial suspended sentance..) I think is harsh & will probably ruin his life chances - a 5 year ban would allow him the exquisite punishment of still seeing others ride, while he rues the day he transgressed & learns from it. Putting him up at taxpayers' expense will just create another jobless, alienated unemployable young man.
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I was curious about how and why it appeared on YouTube at all?
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I was curious about how and why it appeared on YouTube at all?
Because they seem to have stopped showing much pursuit footage on the reality cop shows now haven't they. Maybe some cops wanted it seen and 'leaked' it.
At the end that police bike was doing 88 over the painted 'slow down' lines across the road, and it looked wet and slippery. Sooner him than me!
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>>but you do wonder why the police rider (from the reports I've read anyway) didn't take the opportunity to nick him when he stopped for fuel - the rider by that time had certainly committed several highly endorsable offences - why not just flash the blues & twos (or whatever they have) or stop him there & then?
my guess is previous reports of dangerous or anti-social driving, which culminated in the unmarked police rider wishing to get as much evidence as possible to ensure a decent conviction on this occasion
IMO a tad risky leaving it that long...if he'd wiped out after his fuel stop, can you imagine the hoo-hah... and with the limited facts available, it would seem rightly so
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I saw that happen a number of years ago. A Police Officer keeping obs on a car where the driver had appeared drunk. Waited for her to get back in the car and drive off, there was an accident and she died - turns out it was unrelated to the accident, but I know he questioned his judgement on it. Not an easy call to make, easy to criticise in hindsight.
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Phenomenally good driving by both riders I thought, especially given the wet conditions and heavy traffic including, sometimes, mimsers waddling resentfully down the outside lane of a dual carriageway leaving the nearside lane empty, a silver Vauxhall in particular getting seriously in the way of the police pursuer...
The speeding biker wasn't quite as good at tight traffic overtakes as his pursuer, but on the only unobstructed bit of fast road vanished into the distance at 150mph, while the pursuer never went over 135.
Very quick way of getting about, those big bikes. And what impressively capable machines they are in the right hands.
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sorry Lud! I have to disagree violently, I saw some seriously dangerous lucky driving! I know that road very very well and trust me its a horrible road, and I would also bet there is some poor geezer somewhere south of Flimwell who would have a very strong opinion of how good drivers the pair of em were. Good Job he was riding well otherwise him and that copper would have been dead uns. When I see ex Police Motorcyclists on here saying how dangerous it was, I have to agree!
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Take it easy Stevie. I deliberately avoided the whole question of whether they were taking risks or riding dangerously, and the question of whether either of them should have been doing what we saw them do. Since you raise the question, the least I can say is that I wouldn't have done anything like that myself at any time I can remember, nor actually would I have been capable of it without a lot of practice. But I am afraid of bikes anyway.
I can't help thinking though that even if the fellow in front felt he was taking heart-stopping risks, I doubt very much that the camera bike ever did. Indeed it only braked really hard once, when a mimser waddled into his path from the right, not the Vauxhall, a Fiat I think.
The thing that impressed me was the high-speed handling of those bikes on what looked to me like a greasy road.
Early on in the film by the way the pursuit rider said the fugitive wasn't really a confident rider, something like that. He wasnt as quick as the plod round hhigh-speed bends, and all over those awful slippery white lines, wow. Very impressive indeed, if a tiny bit yobbish. But don't forget they were seldom in anyone's sight for more than fifteen or twenty seconds - there, then gone, as fast bikers always are on the road.
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Yep do see yr point Lud about the handling! and what you cant see is that is an East Sussex Road, and they have a fair few potholes, especially the hill up to Hurst Green, the part that really annoyed me is Mr Policeman chuckling about the poor riding skills of the nutter, but it didnt stop him chasing him! Surely that was the time either to show his hand or back off and use his radio and say, lets stop this chappie up the road! Instead of putting himself into a position where he could in fact be accused of goading the geeza into going faster
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I suspect that's about the size of it. The pursuit cop didn't feel harassed or pushed, he quite admired the fugitive's chutzpah and riding too, but was able to list offence after offence while having a really good excuse for a thrilling blast through East Sussex A road traffic in the wet, just a bit of adrenalin, no fear as such, he wanted to carry on all day....
Tut tut. I am sure some people disapprove even more than I do.
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I only know the facts that are in the public domain. The Police rider had radio contact with a colleague who asked for a couple of updates. You can tell a lot from a persons voice and what the impression I have is that the follow was calm and controlled albeit at some high speeds.
From the conversation with the colleague I am presuming that this was a pre-planned: after numerous complaints, operation and the colleague may well have been the reception committee after the evidence was gathered.
The fact that the Police were intending to pursue further charges would indicate that they had numerous previous complaints.
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No innocent party was hurt, but only by luck rather than design and you wouldn't set out to make an arrest this way (I assume, not being plod, but the fact that this is national news backs me up), but if I was in command of this operation I'd carpet the participants for allowing the situation to get out of their control.
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I think the question as to whether this incident was in or out of control is subjective. Had the Police motorcyclist not been there the first rider would have continued to ride in exactly the same manner. He was not aware that the bike behind was infact a Police bike. If he did see it he must have presumed the bike behind was up fr a 'spirited' ride as was he.
The Police bike was purely evidence gathering after what we can assume were a number of previous complaints ( seemingly justified!)
Had the original rider considered that the bike behind was a Police bike then presumably he would have slowed down. There was no indication that he was trying to evade the Police. If there was then the Police bike becomes involved in a 'pursuit' as opposed to a 'follow'. In these circumstance the Police rider is given the option to abandon if they consider there to be a significant risk.
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Was that a pursuit though or a follow - no suggestion of blues/twos - would the plain bike have been so equipped ?
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Fullchat, the police rider knew what he was doing and if he was unable to realise that the rider in front either feared for his safety or was up for a race then the police rider is not up to the job because he has been blind to the safety of others in continuing his pursuit at unsafe speeds.
Recently not far from me we had the tragic case of a couple killed when a police car in a simulated chase training excercise was hit by one of the police cars doing over 100mph on a winding country road.
If one of these riders had come unstuck and killed themself or a passer-by then we would be having a very different dicussion.
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There wouldn't have been any shortage of charges when it came to court though PU. The police biker was having a thoroughly enjoyable time collecting evidence at the rate of an offence every fifteen seconds or so. The relish and enjoyment can be heard in the running commentary and seen in the driving. No doubt they also have something to do with the clip finding its way onto youtube.
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Not an easy call to make easy to criticise in hindsight.
fair comment
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A couple of technical points maybe - as far as I can gather the miscreant was on a (Honda) Fireblade - a 1litre 170bhp supersports bike, while the copper was on a CBR600RR - a lighter, more agile, though less powerful (circa 118bhp) supersports bike.
It's entirely consistent with the bikes' different focuses, that the miscreant would speed away with top speed & acceleration, whilst the copper's 600 machine would adapt & cope with bends & direction changes more adroitly. The video shows that aspect quite nicely - although of course, different styles/temperament/looney-quotient have to be factored in.
The thing that imprresed with the copper, was his calm & almost insouciant running commentary - more akin to a crown-green bowling league match commentary on a sunny Eastbourne Sunday than a harum-scarum slalom through busy, greasy town & country roads at double NSL speeds.
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"high-speed handling of those bikes on what looked to me like a greasy road."
I was amazed by that, but then I haven`t ridden a bike since 1982. (apart from a recent brief run on a dry road) Have bike tires really improved that much?
Edited by oilrag on 09/11/2008 at 10:03
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Yes they most certainly have.
Mind you mulling over this last night, the rider's style was more akin to the race track than a busy public road. His road positioning was poor and even modern tyres would shudder on the white lines he was riding on........
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even modern tyres would shudder on the white lines he was riding on........
I'm not sure... around here it looks like the white paint is laced with sand or somesuch to remove the old problem of wet white lines. Now tar banding - just as lethal as ever.
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It's the oily bit between the tyre ruts that looks so scary from a biker's point of view in damp conditions. It was glittering evilly in that video. I know these big modern bikes can just shoot out from under the rider on a diesel spill or the like if they open the throttle a whisker too far, because I've seen it happen at low speed in town.
The fact that in the video neither bike ever looked as if it had lost any grip at either end was what really impressed me. And it wasn't just that the bikes and tyres were good. The riders must have been too.
Edited by Lud on 09/11/2008 at 16:06
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Good?
On a track maybe. On a public road, not good.
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Good at riding Nsar. Not morally good, or good necessarily at being careful and tender with others on the road. Although I didn't notice either rider baulking any of the cars they passed, just perhaps giving one or two drivers a start of alarm. They certainly weren't being as murderously crazed or kamikaze-like as some here seem to think. Watching that video I was vividly reminded of the enormous disparities of outlook and response in drivers of different vehicles, conditioned without their really noticing it by the capability of the vehicles themselves... They almost seem to inhabit different, parallel but interleaved universes.
One tends to forget that sort of thing over years of enforced respectable sclerotic mimsing...
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You can drive a car on dial up - bike needs broadband ! Believe me.
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Totally non PC comment I know and please take this in the lighthearted spirit I intend. But.... I am of an age when in my youth drink driving was....well....normal. Driving cars drunk is possible if not advisable. Riding a motorbike while three sheets to the wind is quite difficult...apparently.....
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