For the last few years I have lived in Dubai, returning only rarely to the UK. Recently I decided to partially retire and also treat myself to a car I had lusted over for some while ? a Lexus GS450h SE-L. I decided to buy ?nearly new? and spent quite a while waiting for the spec I wanted to show up on the Lexus GB website. Eventually an 06 car of suitable spec became available and I negotiated with the dealer (name not given here for reasons which will become obvious later) seeking confirmation of things like had the car had any previous accident damage etc. I was given positive assurances, by email, to all my questions. I agreed to purchase the vehicle and for it to be delivered when I next returned to the UK.
On delivery the car was quite dirty, and inside was literally filthy with many areas of damage to the upholstery etc. I later also found that the delivery mileage quoted on the sales docket was 500 less than showed on the odometer. After 50 miles the gearbox failed, and my local Lexus dealer (superb service ? not the one I bought the car from) fitted a replacement box under warranty. While the car was on the ramp they noted and drew my attention to some irregularities and advised that I have the car inspected by the RAC. I did this and the RAC report identified that the vehicle had been in a significant front end shunt, and had been poorly repaired. Overall the report was very critical recommending, among many quite significant items, that a full steering and geometry check be carried out and suggested that it was potentially unsafe to drive.
I contacted Trading Standards local to the dealer and, would you believe, then found that because I was in Dubai at the time that I opened the emails assuring me that the vehicle was in good condition with no previous accident history that the UK ?Sale of Goods Act? did not apply and that the dealer could not be prosecuted due to lack of evidence ? because the emails to me were inadmissible evidence !
Eventually, and with legal assistance, I recovered the purchase price of the car from the dealer but was left out of pocket to the tune of over £1000 for legal fees and RAC inspection costs etc. In UK law costs incurred by a buyer because of misdescription by a seller are normally recoverable, and I tried to recover these costs from the dealer but was unsuccessful, being advised to sue him if I wanted reimbursement. My lawyer advised against this, again because of the inadmissible emails.
Obviously I wrote to Lexus GB about this, drawing their attention to the illegal practices being used in their name in order to sell rogue cars. I also telephoned their Customer Relations Department and when I explained what had happened the woman I was speaking to said ?What do you expect us to do about it ?? and explained that my purchase was from the dealer and that Lexus GB distanced themselves from the transaction. I subsequently had a written response from Lexus GB which reiterated the dealer opinion that I had been ?treated fairly? ? notwithstanding that I had sourced a car through the Lexus GB website, had purchased a Lexus Approved Used car from an approved Lexus Dealership and was now over £1000 out of pocket. The letter concluded with ?I am conscious that this reply does not engender goodwill ..? Too true !
Footnote: I eventually bought exactly the car I wanted (a nice shiny red 07 Lexus GS450h SE-L) from my very good and trustworthy local dealer and am 100% pleased. I agree with the HJ observation about this car: Highly recommended !
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Hi Bob.G - bet you paid a fair bit more for it than you'd have paid for the equivalent car in Dubai?! How are you finding fuel costs?
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Nick, Lexus don't sell any hybrids in the UAE - the most common model there is an ES350 which is not sold in the UK. Fuel in Dubai is getting more expensive but is still of course a LOT cheaper than in the UK. I drive a Toyota Crown for seven years (what a fantastic car that is !!) and it used to cost the equivalent of about £13 to fill the tank :)
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Very naughty Lexus dealer,unexpected and disappointing response from Lexus UK.Depending on how you feel i would sue the supplying dealer,they need a shake up.
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>>Footnote: I eventually bought exactly the car I wanted (a nice shiny red 07 Lexus GS450h SE-L) from my very good and trustworthy local dealer and am 100% pleased. I agree with the HJ observation about this car: Highly recommended !>>
I would not have entertained another Lexus, OK you have a good dealer though you cannot expect support from Lexus GB.
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I would never ever buy a car that I hadn't seen and test driven, and of which I hadn't had an AA inspection.
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You don't see or drive a brand new car.
That's not meant to be a flippant comment, a Ford salesman made the remark to me when I was baulking at ordering a nearly new car from the Forddirect website.
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You don't see or drive a brand new car.
I do. I always make it a condition of the order (even for a factory order) that I inspect and drive the car before I hand over the money. I've never yet had a dealer refuse my demand. I wouldn't have an AA inspection on a brand new car, but even that might be advisable when you know that cars can be damaged after they leave the factory.
Edited by L'escargot on 24/10/2008 at 10:21
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L'escargot, in principle I agree, However in this case car was offered with full Lexus "Approved Used" warranty and I felt safe. In the end car was a bummer and Lexus GB stood back from that and took the view that the dealer and not them signed up to deliver cars to the "Approved Used" quality - so basically if it's a rogue dealer, even an authorised franchisee, the apparent quality assured standard you think you're getting is meaningless as it's not backed by the manufacturers UK representative. And I can't sue them because I was overseas at the time and all the written evidence I have is inadmissable. Had I been in UK it would be different as Trading Standards would have been all over them - in the end they did the best they could by visiting the dealer a couple of times and writing a warning letter, but that doesn't get me my grand back. Luckily the dealer I'm with now is 100% different and couldn't be more honest or helpful and I just love the car :)
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The hassle sounds very frustrating - I imagine it's that & not so much the money that 's vexxing - even though a loss of £1K isn't trivial of course.
One suggestion (or thought game if you like..) though - the car you've now bought & are delighted with on the 07 plate, would, I guess have suffered more depreciation before you bought it than the 'older' 06 plate. You may have even paid less for it for all I know - so look on whole exercise as having saved you money, but cost a little more in the blood pressure stakes!
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absolutely. If I was a dealer with a dud car to shift, who would I try it on with , somebody local and aware , in my face , or some anon bod in another time zone ??
you left yourself open there
the buyer needs to see, inspect, drive and decide. I never buy a car regardless how cheap ( never mins something that presumably cost £20000 + ) without seeing it on a ramp Ist
Edited by motorprop on 24/10/2008 at 14:08
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It is not unheard of for a main dealer to get an accident repaired (but not written off)car and then sell it on under an approved scheme (Honda did it to me).
Often part-ex's just get a quick look over by a sales guy rather than a full inspection, after it has been part-ex'd then the mechanics do their 120 point check and then the dubious points are noted - some dealers take the loss and dump to auction others will try and sell it on hoping no-one notices.
Most accident repairs are done to a high standard, but you can imagine a situation where rather than face a huge increase in premiums, some owners will look around to people who can straighten the body work for a few hundred pounds and forget the suspension / mechanicals.
The original mail message highlights the point that it can be a pain to recover costs of independent inspections, lawyers etc even if you do win your case. But you have highlighted that Lexus according to your experience do not care what there dealer's get up to and so by putting that on this site they've probably lost £1000 of potential sales anyway from bad publicity. Which is a pity as there must be many good Lexus dealers out there.
Edited by Saltrampen on 24/10/2008 at 11:01
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It'd be worth investing £75 or so in a small claims court procedure for the £1,000 owed. The dealer may decide to pay up, rather than pay an expensive lawyer to represent him.
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It'd be worth investing £75 or so in a small claims court procedure for the £1 000 owed. The dealer may decide to pay up rather than pay an expensive lawyer to represent him.
The bad publicity (if you tell the local rag about it) might shame them into paying up!he road -
You could always park your car on the road opposite the dealership with you tale of woe emblazoned over a car and see what they say about that!
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just slighly off topic - i used to work for a large Ford dealer in birmingham. I had a nearly new 07 plate focus that was involved in a very heavy front end - twisted chassis, airbags blown etc and the car has now been repaired and is on the forecourt. HPI check shows nothing up. The car has been a demo and salemans comapany car since new. Unless asked directly the garage have no obligation to tell the new buyer about this damage.
The car was so badly damaged that the bodyshop thought it would be a scrap yard job.
I advise anyone buying a used car to get an AA or RAC check.
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The messages you had in the UAE may (or may not be) inadmissible. However the ones sent by the dealer in the UK would be. In starting any proceedings you would then be entitled to disclosure of all relevant documents from the dealer, which would include the sent emails.
If they could not produce them, i.e they had deleted them, then it goes to the credibility of their evidence. In addition they may have to have a specialist company retrieve them from their computers (not cheap), as clearly they should maintain, and keep for a reasonable period of time, proper records.
I would suggest a small claims action for the £1,000 as you are not at risk of any of the other side's costs even if you lost.
As the last poster said, tell them you are going to sue them in the small claims court. At the least it will need them to attend (and with the witness, i.e the person who answered your emails) and will cost them more than settling with you.
I assume the arguement that as the car was advertised via their "approved" site, that Lexus GB do in fact have to stand behind their approval of the car cut no ice. Seems even as a goodwill gesture, they should have repaid you.
Good luck.
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The emails themselves are not inaddmisable. The issue is that the sale of goods act does not apply becuase the car was in sold to an oversea buyer in principle.
If the emails tell lies they are in effect fraudulent. They are admissable in a criminal case and I would threaten them with extradition to the UAE
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Interesting, but the car was delivered/received in the UK. The location of the buyer during the negotiations is one thing, but when signing the V5 the new keeper will have entered a UK address, and probably was in the UK when he signed it?
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I would imagine that the dealer's Terms and Conditions state that the contract is subject to English Law. Therefore the Sale of Goods Act will apply to this transaction.
They have breached the contract and you are entitled to reject the goods and claim damages for your loses as a result of the breach of contract.
No need to extradite them!!
Still don't think your copies of the emails are inadmissible, but if you have had legal advice from someone who is specialist in this area, I would bow to their judgement.
Posting, as always, in the hope that it helps.
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Re e-mails it could depend on where your ISP is based as opposed to where you read them, i.e. if they were addressed to you@theemirates it might be a problem though you@btinternet etc perhaps not.
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I'm stunned at Lexus's attitude. They were supposed to be #1 in customer service!
Regarding emails, yes, often they are not considered evidence is court - as you can't get a signature on them.
But as others already said, I would re-iterate that never buy a car without seeing it! Although hideous repair work is difficult to discover for normal buyers.
I once bought a bicycle over internet (new from supplier) and when I tried to ride it, seat fell of immediately! Since then I decided to buy things as much as possible over the shop (unless it is a very cheap item) after actually examining the product.
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I wonder if a letter to Lexus Japan would throw a different light on things, i'm quite sure the president of Lexus would take an extremely dim view of this.
A poor dealer is one thing, but the attitiude of Lexus GB has rather shaken me.
TBH until reading this i too would have been quite prepared to have put myself in that marque's hands on faith and trust, seems i may have been wrong.
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Funny how certain brands make you think of them. I've never really got on with the Lexus thing. For some inexplicable reason they make me think of the sort of man who would wear a medallion, a gold identity bracelet and was just a bit too tanned. The sort of fellow who would leave one too many shirt buttons undone. Probably with a subtle comb over too.
Fine cars I am sure but just a bit, well you know..........too much of some things and not quite enough of others.
;-)
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Have you tried WhatCar, have a legal section every month on exactly this sort of thing, and may be once it gets into a national motoring journal Lexus would have a change of heart.
Would only cost you the time of emailing them, and (hopefully for you) could get the resolution you want.
Hope this helps.
Pete.
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. The sort of fellow who would leave one too many shirt buttons undone.Probably with a subtle comb over too.
Just for a moment there apart from the combover, i wondered if i had a hidden web cam turned on..the slightly too good tan is probably ingrained muck...
It isn't just the previously untarnished Lexus reputation Humph, i've been delivering these things since the early 400ls was released here, they are so unbelievably well made.
Well worth having a nose under a high mileage well used Lexus.
Thats the trouble with doing certain jobs i suppose, mechanics go straight under the bonnet, i go straight underneath for the upside view..ooh er missus... i wonder how gynaecologists inspect their various models..;)
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I'm amazed and baffled by what Trading Standards have told you.
If someone lied to you with the intention of defrauding you of your cash, I don't see how it makes a difference whether you were in Dubai or Dunfermline.
If Trading Standards is right, I suggest all internet based scamsters move to England and happily defraud people everywhere else on the planet knowing that they're entirely safe here provided they e-mail to elsewhere.
Have you got some of a letter you could extract and post up?
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The sort of fellow who would leave one too many shirt buttons undone. Probably with a subtle comb over too. Fine cars I am sure but just a bit well you know......
In a similar spirit HB, I think of them as cars for shrewd, rich people who know what's what but aren't especially interested in cars. But I think we have both allowed our image matrix to get the better of us. In reality Lexuses (proper big ones anyway) are much better than that, sort of perfect, polite Oriental Mercs. I don't slaver over them but I know I would be very very happy with one.
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The sort of fellow who would leave one too many shirt buttons undone. Probably with a subtle comb over too.>>
HB, I was going to ask you, being the footwear expert that you are, what shoes a Lexus owner would wear when driving then it occured to me that he probably leaves his carpet slippers on ;-)
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Well Bob, If you type `Lexus caveat emptor` into Google, this thread seems to show up right under the Lexus UK site.
Something for the Manufacturer and dealerships to think about perhaps? Not to mention potential customers.
What was that adage about a bad apple?
Regards
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Day wear - Loafers ( easier to get on if bending is an issue )
After dark - Slip on "lounge lizard" numbers probably with some form of reptile print panel and heels slightly too high. In extreme cases with a metal trim.
Leisure - Two tone golf shoes
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I can feel another "Friday" thread coming on after HB's point.
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Whoops ( blush ).
Lexus are undoubtedly very very good cars. It's just....oh never mind.......
;-)
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I think your Lexus owner 'profiling' was spot-on HB - with only the possible omission being the blazer-type jacket with metal (usually the shiny brassy type) buttons.
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I think your Lexus owner 'profiling' was spot-on HB - with only the possible omission being the blazer-type jacket with metal (usually the shiny brassy type) buttons.
The Alan Partridge connection has done them no good at all.
The only person I personally know who has a Lexus is the most sober person you could meet - he moved to Lexus after many years of Mercedes ownership, mainly because he was frustrated by options costs on the Merc. He drives a GS300, which I must say is a very nice car indeed.
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...I've never really got on with the Lexus thing. For some inexplicable reason they make me think of the sort of man who would wear a medallion, a gold identity bracelet and was just a bit too tanned. The sort of fellow who would leave one too many shirt buttons undone. Probably with a subtle comb over too....
Wow - have you actually met Altea Ego? ;-)
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Well having just come back from italy, the tan part is right.
I must post my stelvio pass experiences....
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This is interesting this thread........
I have a friend in Wome who drives an IS and his wife has a new 3 series.
They are on the motorway today and yesterday I asked hil which car they would be travelling.
His response was the IS as it was a bit more pipe and slippers for motorway work.
I do not see them like that myself but looking at some of recent posts it is clear I do not have much of an idea of image.
PS - The (W)Rome bit is of a lie but I was watching life of Brian on the Lexus DVD system and just felt like adding it.
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Do they rank amongst the highest there ?
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I agree with earlier posts about never buying another Lexus again.
I had a similar experience with Volkswagen UK Customer Service. I had a problem with my Passat just out of warranty, and they treated me like I was a complete numpty. I got so mad I actually told their patronising telephonist that I would never buy a VW again, (and I meant it). They have some cars at the moment that I would like, and their PD diesel engine is/was a complete gem, but they just lost my business because of their "couldn't care less" attitude towards me.
There are plenty of other makes to choose from too. After the Passat being written-off, I ended up with a Subaru Legacy and I love it to bits.
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I'm amazed that VW continue to sell cars with their lousy customer services. Nearly 25 years ago, after several run-ins with their customer services, my dad sold me his VW Polo. (It was actually a decent car, and the price was obviously attractive). I remember on one occasion, I went to the VW dealer and tried to get a spare part for it. They didn't have the part, and clearly weren't interested in ordering it for me. After that I did my own maintenance on it - far more straightforward.
Needless to say, since then, I haven't had a VW. I've owned Austin-Rover, Ford, Peugeot and Vauxhall since then, and compared with VW, they've all been fine. If anything, the customer service at Austin-Rover (as it then was) was the best, but never mind!
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Try filing a claim on www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/
The fee varies with the amount claimed, so try to keep it under the £1000 break-point. See what the fee is and whether or not you think it's worth a gamble. They will hopefully settle out of court. The most you can lose is £75 or so, and it will cost them more than £75 in hassle that's for sure. If you need any examples of how to structure the particulars of the claim, this is how I do mine, (as the third person) in this case, for pothole damage; (Introduction/relationship with defendant, what the claim is for, why the defendant is liable)
The Defendant is soley responsible for
maintaining the carriageway, namely xxxxxx
Street in yyyyyyyy, on which a defect
caused an accident resulting in damage to the
Claimant's motor vehicle and a personal
injury to the Claimant.
The Claimant's claim is for damages, as
remedy for part of the cost of repairs
carried out to the motor vehicle to make good
the damage sustained during the accident.
The Claimant claims that the Defendant's
inspection and maintenance regime was
inadequate, and that there was a lack of due
diligence and reasonable care in carrying out
duties.
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Are they saying that your written evidence is unacceptable because it's electronic, or because you sent and received it while you were in Dubai? Suggest Small Claims Court - don't even mention that you were in Dubai. You bought something in good faith and were screwed over by the dealer, which is exactly what the SMC is for.
You can't really lose anything by giving it a shot, and if the dealer chooses to defend on the "out of the country via email" argument they'll have pay through the nose for a lawyer anyway.
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"if the dealer chooses to defend on the "out of the country via email" argument they'll have pay through the nose for a lawyer anyway. "
I would go for it. Not much if anything to lose. And if they use this as their defence they are saying "we are guilty but he was out of the country" which might not work for them anyway. I would hope not.
PS Whilst you cannot name and shame them here, could you write to a local paper with your story. In this climate a lost sale would cost them potentially more than they cost you and they might pay up. If you lost them a few sales then it might be worth paying up what i think they owe you. I don't mean to go heavy handed but if they messed you around then I would not want someone else going through the same.
Edited by rtj70 on 26/10/2008 at 01:48
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I have used Moneyclaim in the past with success, filing a claim against a large holiday company.
I had written letters to them 3 times and each time they gave me the usual sympathy but said there was nothing they could do.
I filed the claim online and paid £30 fee and within a short time, the holiday company received a summons to appear in a county court.They initially said they were going to defend the claim but a week later, a letter from their law firm turned up with the full amount claimed and the costs of £30.
The accompanying letter stated that it was not worth their while to defend the case so they had decided to settle.
In your case, on the facts as described, I would definitely go ahead and claim. Lexus have far more to loose than you, as you only have the fee to lose at most, they on the other hand have a reputation for excellence at stake.
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Hamsafar - thanks for that very useful link to a service of which I was not aware. Sounds/looks a bit easier than SCC.
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