It was once considered bad driving if you used your brakes hard other than in an unforseeable emergency. It is curious now how so many rush up to the tail of a vehicle, or a red light, and clap on the anchors.
I think it is a good exercise in anticipation to see how quickly you can get along without using the brakes (other than for these pollutants of highways, the slow cameras!).
Tomo
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Actually I'm no great fan of ABS.
I don't like the feel it gives a brake pedal, in particular it ruins the minimal travel staggering braking of a traditional "fully powered" Citroen system.
Far preferred the ability to haul off speed at the start of a braking "panic". It's my belief folks don't take off enough speed in the first few hundred feet, then they leave the brakes/car with an impossible task at the end.
Give me a non-ABS DS/GS/CX/BX system any day..... featherlight,almost no pedal travel, no fade, immense power.
Another factor is the cost of repairing ABS when the car is a few years old. There are loads about with the ABS bulb removed to save the potential cost of a £300 - £600 ECU or wheel sensors at £75 a corner.
Lastly there is the fact many folks have never tried out the ABS in a quiet area to see what it can do to help in am emergency. If you have never experienced the feel of ABS it can be an odd feeling. In fact I'm amazed by how many own a car for three years and never actuate the ABS. How do you know the system is likely to work at all? The ECU/light only checks the electronic parts.
David W
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David
Hate to disagree with the eminent DW, but ABS makes absolutely no difference to the feel of the pedal when braking normally. It also makes no difference to braking power. This may not be the case on fully powered Citroens, but it is on everything else.
Yes, ABS needs understanding, but frankly if a driver doesn't react fast enough, or brake hard enough, nothing will save them. That said, if it is misjudged, and they then indulge in panic braking, then ABS could save the day. I believe it is a benefit.
Just to confirm the misunderstandings though:
A few years ago a colleague (who's driving horrified the rest of us it must be said) with a BX managed to activate the ABS one frosty morning. Worried by the vibration he took it to the dealer for repair of the brake 'fault' - only to have the ABS function explained to him. He was unaware the car even had ABS, never mind its effects. Needless to say he was one of the 'I never read the instruction book' brigade.
Regards
John S
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A few years ago a colleague (who's driving horrified the rest of us it must be said) with a BX managed to activate the ABS one frosty morning. Worried by the vibration he took it to the dealer for repair of the brake 'fault' - only to have the ABS function explained to him. He was unaware the car even had ABS, never mind its effects. Needless to say he was one of the 'I never read the instruction book' brigade.
Did he not wonder what the "ABS" check light on the dashboard was for?
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DD
Apparently not. The question was asked. It appears the dash lighting up in the morning was just 'one of those things' and of no particular relevance.
Regards
John S
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Interesting...I don't think I've ever activated my ABS, certainly have never felt that i have, although I haven't thought about it. Most of my hard stops are made at very low speeds because of the incessant jaywalkers in this place. I'll have a go now I've read this.
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I have never deliberately activated the ABS in the 5 years we've had our present vehicle and only done one emergecy stop (when 2 escapee dogs ran onto a dual carriageway).
I have assumed that ABS would be checked on each service. Am I wrong?
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I remember driving a hired ford mondeo from work and found the brakes to be horrendously scary. It had ABS and it was almost brand new but I had to push my foot almost to the floor to get it to stop - there was very little "gradual" braking when I touched the pedal. At first this put me off abs, but having an Omega now with ABS I find its excellent with none of the above mentioned drawbacks. Perhaps the hire car was just a lemon and had a problem, though it was from a top company and should have been serviced. The Vauxhall ABS system seems to be excellent, and despite the weight of the Omega the brakes feel very confident and strong. I've never yet had the confidence to try the abs hard, I did try braking heavily once leaving a motorway sliproad (but not hard stamping down as the wife was in the car!), seemed to feel very positive without any worry of things losing control. I remember my cavalier without abs, you had to be very cautious when braking heavily in the rain as it was hard to know if the wheels were going to slip. Personally I am all for abs, as long as it works! I still adopt slow and gentle braking, keeping a good look ahead of prevailing traffic conditions because I know it saves me money on brake pads and discs!!! Its just peace of mind knowing that technology is there to assist me when I need it.
Simon
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A major point of an ABS system is that one can brake very hard and still steer.
I check mine sometimes on a nice greasy bit of road, or in the winter where they have not salted.
Fortunately, no actual experience in an emergency.
Tomo
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>A major point of an ABS system is that one can brake very hard >and still steer.
Exactly, pity that the majority of drivers don't realise this and just crash into what ever they could have steered round with the ABS banging away like mad. Driver aids are no use without driver training.....
In adverse conditions (frost / snow) in winter I always brake hard soon after I leave home to find out what the road surface is like, so I can adjust my driving accordingly, and know what lock up sounds and feels like. Doesn't impress SWMBO though as I take great delight in sliding down the road! (No ABS on my 91 BX).
Richard
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Ahem.....unusual for me of all posters to be referring back to topic, but it was "ABS is ineffective on slippery roads..."??
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Growler,
I think your chap refers to the fact ABS can increase stopping distances on snow or very loose surfaces. Normal slippery surfaces are exactly what it was developed for.
John S,
We're not at odds on this, I was meaning the pedal feel when you get to the ABS bit....many cars *feel* like the brakes have *failed* and the pedal *appears* to go to the floor in a stodgy manner.
I agree up to that point the pedal feel is broadly similar to non-ABS in most cars.
Not in my opinion some of the classic Citroens though.....the ones having a pedal that worked by pressure rather than travel. ABS ruins their feel.
I'm not saying that ABS doesn't have a place in safety design, just that I don't see it as essential on my own car.
Remember though I fit my new tyres to the front!
David W
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David
The whle point with ABS seems to come down to this one of 'feel' when it activates. I've only had it in action once in the dry - a lorry suddenly decided he's missed his RAB exit, but went for it from the wrong lane anyway across my bows. The ABS came in, but I was pushing that pedal so b***** hard it had gone down substntially further than usual. Clearly in the wet, you don't have to push so hard to active it.
I
Regards
John S
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OK, Growler!
Well, of course ABS is incapable of increasing tyre/road adhesion. However, as most deceleration is obtained with the tyres just on the point of slipping, as opposed to sliding along with the wheels locked - and the vehicle probably pointing anywhere but forward - and as the average punter has no feel for the optimum point and has never heard of cadence braking, he does stand a better chance with ABS doing the job for him, I suggest, though he will not get a dry road stop.
Partially effective?
Tomo
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Has to be loose surfaces I guess, not a whole of snow round the equator!
We have a lot of concrete roads however, i.e. not tarmac'ed, especially outside of the city, and these get slimy with all the truck and bus traffic. These do get very greasy. I suspect this is what our writer has in mind.
Actually I would think ABS induced skidding is the least of local worries. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 20% of all public service vehicles and trucks have bald or nearly bald tyres!
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In my recent test drives, I've been testing the effacy and feel of several different systems in different cars.
There's a big difference in the feeling given by each when stamping the middle pedal - the Punto without ABS felt like it was never going to stop, with ABS it still felt like it wasn't going to stop but at least you could steer, even in the car lurched around. A Golf on the same piece of road, going faster felt altogether more solid and stopped in a more controlled manner.
A new Clio feels as safe as houses and inspires confidence, but a non assisted new Ibiza slews and slivers across the road, hardly inspiring.
I agree with DW about the feel of the Citroen brakes, they can apply a lot of retardation with a small pedal travel, but will lock very easily if you're not used to them.
However, I think people don't realise just how close they are to the edge of controlablity when braking hard, once the wheels lock you're not much more than a passenger unless you've got the idea of cadence braking, and that's not a natural instinct. It can be the only explanation for the usual lane 3 convoy of cars 10 feet apart at 75mph.
Lee.
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"It's my belief folks don't take off enough speed in the first few hundred feet, then they leave the brakes/car with an impossible task at the end."
Absolutely right. Over four times as much energy has to be dissipated slowing from 60 to 30 than from 30 to zero, for instance, I'm not sure precisely how this translates into pedal force (you can still lock the wheels if you use too much) but it is fair to say that you need a bit more to begin with, while most people do it the other way round.
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