The problem is every car at this price point willalways have some doubts on. But on the other hand its better to loose £100 than £500 I guess.
There has been so many cars I have walked aweay from and time costs money :(.
I will let him take it to the MOT, get the service done and if its still a bit steamy I will just have to loose the £100.
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Steam in the exhaust does not mean HG, IMHO. Look at the oil and the colour of the expansion tank water, for a start. Or walk away.
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The experts here can correct me, I'm sure, but there's a world of difference between 'steam' and smoke.
I use quotes because what you call steam is likely to be an aerosol of liquid water, produced when the hot gas from the engine condenses in an exhaust that hasn't yet reached operating temperature. Once the exhaust warms up, the water from combustion will reach the outside world as true steam, which is colourless and practically invisible - but much hotter. Neither of these should indicate anything wrong with the engine - but the effect will vary with the temperature and humidity of the air outside.
If there's a problem with the head gasket, you'll see (and smell) blue-white smoke from engine oil getting into the combustion chambers, and that won't go away when the engine's hot.
Over to Screwloose to tell me if I'm even close.
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Thanks, I am used to old Ford engines which seem to get up to temp quite quickly, we did about 4 miles on the test run, but he had to stop of so even then the engine had been turned of for 15 mins.
I checked the oil colour and it was fine (despite it being 12,000 miles old), I checked the cap and no mayonase but that is easy to clean and hide.
I was speaking to somebody that has bought a car of him just now and he said he had no problems.
There was probably a hint of white in the steam but certainly no blue. I was just concerned because I would have thought the effects of the condensation would have not been visible after 4 miles.
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WdB
Pretty much, I'd think - although visible water condensate at atmospheric pressure is accurately called steam as the OED gives it's root as Old English for vapour.
As you say; water in it's gaseous state is invisible at temperatures above c.100 o C.
Rattle
Only if it's still steaming, in mild conditions, after a good [10mile] run shold you be concerned. A car on a front accumulates a lot of water in it's exhaust from all those cold starts.
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WDB is partly right - water is a normal product of combustion.
If I were concerned, I would ask to witness two tests being berformed;
1) probe the neck of the expansion tank for any hydrocarbons with the engine running
2) a pressure test of the cooling system with the engine hot and running - a failed headgasket sends the pressure reading soaring much more quickly than does any expansion effect of the water.
>>If there's a problem with the head gasket, you'll see (and smell) blue-white smoke from engine oil getting into the combustion chambers, and that won't go away when the engine's hot.
Head gaskets can fail in a number of ways;
a) combustion chamber to combustion chamber. No fluids leak, but, two adjacent cylinders have low compressions, and a cylinder leakage test results in a low value, and air escaping from the plug hole of the adjacent cylinder
b) combustion chamber to cooolant space. In this failure, only the coolant leaks. When stationary, the coolant may leak into the cylinder, causing hydraulic lock, and difficulty starting. While running, the coolant may leak in while the cylinder pressure is low, and during firing, combustion gas may leak out into the coolant. You might see steam in the exhaust, you might find HC in the expansion tank, you might find high pressure in the cooling system. There may be a little oil in the coolant, but, not much.
c) combustion chamber to oil gallery. The engine may burn oil. There's no steam, and no involvement of the coolnt at all.
d) oil gallery to coolant passage - here, water and oil mix in a big way. On a car fitted with an oil to water cooler, it always worth checking the coler first. VAG coolers are well known for this.
e) combustion chamber, or coolant passage, or oil gallery to the outside - you simply get a leak. This is an odd one, but, I have seen it on air cooled engines, where there is little gasket material between the firing ring, and the cooling air passing outside the engine.
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I am very tired and stressed with all this now, I may have lost £100 but that is better than paying £1100 for a car that needs a new HG right?
I went past the garage before and the seller has been working on it for at least three hours so it seems genuine. He is giving me a call tomorrow after its come back from the MOT, so I will mention the smoke then, if he says its not a problem I will just say if its still smoking when I come to collect it I don't want to buy it.
I can't understand why he would knowingly sell a car with such a defect if he is genuine so I am hoping it just needs a good drive and service.
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>>needs a new HG right?
If it needs a new head gasket - and it is only an IF at the moment;
a) it's not a huge job, and is no indicator of future engine problems
b) you should ask for the work to be done before you buy the car
In your shoes, I would ask to witness the test I have described above before you pay any more money. Then, if it passes the tests, you're happy, and if it doesn't, you ask the garage to put it right beofre you buy the car. Either way, you don't need to lose the £100 you've already spent.
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Thanks :). When I asked he could only tell me the work has done, which was cambelt, water pump, although the servce stamps are complete (vauxhall) there is no receipts. So if it does need a new HG I guess who won't be too put out if he had to spend 3 hours more labour and a £50 part to make a £1000 sale.
When I drove the car it did feel very responsive but I guess that means nothing, but there was certainly no rattles, knocks, pinking or misfires so I am very satisified the engine is good, my only question is the HG.
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Didn't you go through a huge amount of agonising the last time you bought a car.
You're buying form an established dealer, he's putting a fresh MOT on it and its unlikely to pass the MOT emissions with a failed HG.
If it does fail soon after you buy it take it back and he'll fix it.
Stop worrying so much, life's too short.
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haha! well actually the Fiesta does have a lot of faults but its safe and reliable so the faults can be lived with.
To be fair the day after I bought my last Fiesta it did overheat (thermostat).
And PS once again thanks so much to HJ, my mind has put an ease a little but if its still smoky on Friday I will ask to see a compression check etc. I am just checking that each cylinder has equal preasure aren't I?
Edited by Rattle on 14/10/2008 at 20:19
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>>I am just checking that each cylinder has equal preasure aren't I?
A cylinder compression test is virtually useless - by the time the comression test is conclusive for head gasket failure, the car will already be running like an absolute dog.
The two tests which make sense are checking for HCs in the header tank, and checking the coolant system pressure doesn't send the needle off the end of the scale when you rev the car up.
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Just one concern when I was driving it a warning light came on, he said it was because it needed a service. However I have since found out its the engine warning light, now I assume this could have come on because it needs a service and hasn't been run for a while, but it also could have come on because of HG or an other sort of failure. It will be interesting to see what the MOT says tomorrow.
Ever way some more questions need to be asked before I buy this car and they need sorting or I want my deposit back, if he dosn't sort them before I give him the rest of the money what chancde I do have of getting them sorted when I own the thing.
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An engine management light doesn't come on because it needs a service - or for a HG fault.
There is a fault that needs investigating - starting with a code-read.
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Thanks I will mention it to him tomorrow :). I will tell him my machanic has a couple of concerns about what I have told him or could that get his back up?
I am useless at buying cars as I let my heart run my head :(
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/10/2008 at 01:29
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Just one concern when I was driving it a warning light came on he said it was because it needed a service.
If it's got a digital odometer and is due a service then the word InSP will briefly appear in it when the ignition key is turned and then revert back to the mileage being displayed.
Can't remember when Corsa's changed over from analogue to ditigal odometers.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/10/2008 at 01:32
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It is analogue .Either way it sounds like there is a fault with this car that needs sorting, am I within my rights of demanding that the problem is fixed or asking my deposit back?
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Perhaps I'm taking an extreme view, but, you were lied to about the fault light being a service indicator light. For me, that would be enough to ask for my deposit back.
It's possible that the salesman didn't really know what the light meant, but he chose not to admit that, and tell you lies instead, or, it's possible that he knew exactly what the light meant, and lied anyway.
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>>Either way it sounds like there is a fault with this car that needs sorting, am I within
>>my rights of demanding that the problem is fixed or asking my deposit back?
Yes. Because if you carry on with the purchase, you will still subsequently be able to demand that the fault be fixed or you are refunded.
Much better would be for you to find out EXACTLY what the warning light was, rather than to worry about it.
(And how can a head rule a heart over a ten year old junkbox? Never mind!)
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ok thanks :).
My parents are saying I can't pull out now as its had the MOT, service etc just for me. They say I can't accuse him of lying.
I have decided to test drive the car again to make sure the steam and light has gone out if he has nothing to hide he won't mind me wanting to do this will he? If he has something to hide he might be a bit cagey about it.
After how many miles can I expect the steam to be reduced?
It passed the MOT this morning.
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You need to get the exhaust really hot; so use is just as important as miles - but 10 miles at least, including fast roads.
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Thanks :).
I think I will take the plung, with regarding the warning light I don't think he said it was the service warning light, but he said thats come on because it needs a service, I have been told it no longer comes on.
I am happy the steam is just condensation, there was no sign of HG problems and the temperature gauge was low at all times.
At the end of the day its £1100 and has some sort of warranty, even if I do have to pay £250 for a new HG in 6 months its stilla cheap car and does everything I want. What other supermini has aircon for £1100.
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Who would want to maintain a ten-year old aircon system? Avoid.
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Who would want to maintain a ten-year old aircon system? Avoid.
Me. I recently sold a 13 year old car (privately, I'm not a dealer) with an aircon system which worked like new. What's more, it was a Fiat (horror!). What's the issue?
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he said thats come on because it needs a service
He's talking rubbish. As previously mentioned, the only reminder you get when a service is due is the word "InSP" in the digital odometer display. As the car doesn't have a digital odometer, it means it doesn't have anything to prompt that it's service time.
Was the picture on the light a car with a spanner vertically through it? If so, then it's the engine electronics / immobilser / transmission fault light.
It will flash if there is an immobiliser problem (and the car won't start)
Only a transmission fault light if it has an auto box.
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kfarr.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/engine_light.jpg
{link corrected}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/10/2008 at 19:44
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That is most definitely not the service light! It could indicate many different faults, the code would need to be read.
I would be afraid that the bulb has been removed to make the light go away...not unheard of....
Make sure the light *does* come on with the ignition in position II and then goes off within a second or so of starting the engine.
Edited by TheOilBurner on 15/10/2008 at 16:35
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OK I had a moment of common sense and went to my local machanic who I have a lot of respect for. He told me not to buy a car of that guy as he is a well known crook. Tells you the world before sale, as soon as he gets the deposit his attitude changes.
Thanks for all your advice :). I have lost £100 but at least I have avoided buying a lot of trouble. I have learnt a very harsh lesson from all of this.
My machanic also told me he will check over any car I want to buy :).
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Sounds like this guy has got a great way of earning money. He either sells the car at a profit or keeps a punters deposit and still has the car to sell to another punter.
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If the car is genuine and doesn't have any faults, let's hope he doesn't take you to court and sue for the costs of the service and MOT and any other work he did to the car in preparation for the sale.
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Surely that's the point of the deposit, to cover the dealers risk that the punter might walk away and the work might be a waste of time?
Ultimately the dealer will probably sell the car to someone and the work will not have been in vain and he'll still be £100 richer from the given up deposit?
If anything, the situation as I see it is that Rattle has agreed to buy a car in good faith, discovered potentially serious faults and sensibly decided to walk away. Looking at it like that the dealer is trying to rip an honest punter off and it would be not unreasonable for Rattle to try and seek the return of the deposit, IMHO. Not that he'd be likely to get it...
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kfarr.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/engine_light.jpg
Yep, that is the ECU fault light.
On newer Vauxhall's the pic you posted is the emissions fault light and the car/spanner light is the ECU fault light.
I *suspect* it hasn't got a car/spanner light - some people do mistake it to be the service light, mainly because they don't RTFM.
If the garage owner thought that was the service light then he is in the wrong trade. That is a recognised fault symbol on a whole range of different cars.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/10/2008 at 19:53
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This thread is proof enough that I had my doubts so if they did take me to court I will tell them straight and also ask trading standards to investigate the service history which I now suspect could be fake as all I saw was his garages stamps, no receipts.
And just because you put a deposit down it dosn't mean you have any obligation to buy, it just covers being messed about, that is the point of the deposit.
My machanic said he does a fixes a lot fo cars sold at this garage. I think he basically operates within the law.
In my own mind that smoke was not normal I have not seen one car today steaming like that, and new plugs won't cure the ECU warning light.
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>>and new plugs won't cure the ECU warning light.
They might do - without more info on the fault codes, it's difficult to tell.
The engine management warning light doesn't necessarily mean that the ECU has failed - much more common is that the ECU has detected a fault somewhere in the whole system. This fault could be something as simple as a bad connection, through to sooted up plugs causing a misfire, to failed coil packs, and very very rarely, a failed ECU, with mtriad possibilities between.
However, I think you're doing the right thing by not buying this particular motor car, and any motor car from this source.
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This sums it up nicely
"I would say don't buy any car that you have doubts about, whether the doubts are justified or not." - L'escargot
I have also gone off Corsa's now too!.
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