Here's a long preamble to a question that possibly answers itself. The High milers thread has some bearing on this too. In short, I have a biggish but fuel-efficient car that is on its way to being a high-miler, but which is starting to cost a little more than I expected. Anyway...
I absentmindedly followed a link from here to Autotrader yesterday, and something prompted me to have a look for cars similar to mine. It was a shock: last time I even looked at its value was about two years ago, when it seemed to be worth about £7,500; now, traders are advertising tidy-looking Volvo S60 D5 manuals of similar vintage and mileage to mine (six years, 83,000) for £4,500, and in one case, less than £4,000. From which I deduce that mine is probably worth between £3,000 and £3,500.
This has set me wondering again about the wisdom of my plan to keep the S60 going for another year or two. I?ve had it since new and bought it for about £11,000 at two years old when I left the job it used to go with. So my four years since then have cost me about £8,000, in which time the car has needed nothing but fuel, tyres and routine service items.
So far, so good. Life has moved on, and the S60 has ceded the role of family wagon to our new Toyota Verso. Its main purpose now is to get me down the M40 and back on my unfeasibly long journey to work. (Leave the ?sports saloon? nonsense to the marketing department; the S60 was made to cruise motorways and does it superbly.)
So, reasoning that the car was paid for, reliable and well suited to the task, that it had done the worst of its depreciating, and that it was unlikely I could justify another car with a five-cylinder engine, I thought it made sense to run it on for another couple of years before trading it in for something a little smaller ? I?m one of the few to have an eye on Volvo?s perky little C30.
But now the S60 seems to be costing me more than I?d expected. I hadn?t appreciated how far big car values have fallen ? curious in this case, since the S60 does 48mpg and my last VED disc cost just £160. And it?s starting to want parts: the last service bill included £450 for suspension and engine-mount bushes and the dealer also wants to replace some other oily underparts and ? gasp ? the original brake pads. Then there?ll be the timing belt to do at the next one; it could easily add up to £1,000 in the next six months.
So ? at last ? the question. Have I already had the best the S60 has to offer in terms of low-input, comfortable, economical travel? Is my seventh year of ownership going to cost me another £2,000 in depreciation as well as the maintenance bills? And, if so, should I offer it to my dealer, while it?s still a presentable example of a current model, in the hope of a good price on smaller alternative?
Or would you take the view that the big drop in value has happened and is unlikely to happen again; that replacing a few biggish items now will set the car up for another two or three years; and that I might as well enjoy a little more of that five-cylinder warble?
Discuss.
}:---)
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I'm sure that if you're taking a 7 year old car to the dealer for servicing, they'll be very happy to see you. I would consider finding a good independant who will only recommend things that NEED doing, not small paltry faults that can continue in that state for years.
For example, a dealer technician will report a sump gasket for replacement as soon as there's the slightest trace of oil on the outside, where an independant would be much more likely to quickly check that the bolts are tight, and let you know about it, but tell you just to keep an eye on it rather than give you the hard sell.
I've just been talking to a friend who works in a dealer garage - they are really quiet - about the worst he's seen in 18 years - and they aren't letting any extra work slip through their hands!
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>>So my four years since then have cost me about £8,000
You've set a benchmark. If you can continue to run the car for less than 2K per year (obviously excluding fuel!), then you are doing as well as you have been doing for the last 4 years. I suspect that you'll beat this quite easily. Yes, continue to enjoy the 5 cylinder warble!
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It's a good car that you know well and is now worth relatively little. You've already started spending money on it so why give it away for someone else to get the benefit?
I say keep it. Unless of course you just fancy a change and can easily afford it.
I'm in a similar position with my 53 plate 67k Vectra. Bits are starting to need replacing now (exhaust, shocks, springs) but it's worth more to me than the measly p/x value.
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Fair point about the dealer, NC. At the last service, they told me the number plates needed replacing; they've been a bit delaminated at the edges for three years or more, but are still perfectly legible. They were mentioned as an Advisory on the last MoT but one, at a place that also sells number plates; the last two MoTs have been at a place that does only testing and the plates haven't even been mentioned.
I actually asked the tester about this last week when I collected the car and the new certificate. "Oh," he said, "they just wanted to sell you some new plates. There's nothing wrong with the ones you have."
Incidentally, I did contact one independent Volvo specialist for a quote on replacing the bushes. What they quoted was only marginally less than the dealer's price, and the independent would have been harder to get to. I may think again about independents once I've had the cambelt done next time round.
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Keep it. Loads of life left in the thing, and if you take it out of the main dealer network for servicing / parts and use the many Volvo specialist indies around the country, you can probably get a good few hundred quid off that looming £1,000 bill.
It's a big, well built car with a powerful, well regarded diesel engine, and a badge which is probably more associated with longevity and build quality in the typical car buyer's mind than any other. Volvos are definitely among the more "reassuring" brands for buyers when buying at high mileage.
I really can't see this rapidly plummeting further in value from this point forward, and the S60 is not exactly known for falling to bits or springing expensive failures on owners when it gets older.
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Without a doubt it makes more financial sense to keep the S60.
£1k worth of bills will be a bit painful but it isn't a patch on the depreciation you'll suffer on a new C30. It would probably lose that much by the time you drove it home!
Your S60 will probably take another year or two to lose that much as the worst is over.
Judging by the thread I started, a diesel S60 seems to be prime high-mileage material, provided your happy with splashing out on the occasional bill.
Anyway, the C30 shares its platform with the focus (no bad thing but not a motorway cruiser like the S60).
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Have a look at the Essentials Service; I get my V70 done on that now as it's over 7yrs old (an early S60 will nearly be there) and 210,000 service was quoted as £300ish for the full job, or £190ish for the essential... admittedly the service staff did admit she'd never had to look at the second page for the service history, it normally shows up on the first page!!!
I agree on the prices; had a look on volvo selected used cars and was sorely tempted with the V70 170Bhp manual SE that was on there at under £4k, with 87,000ish esp as my GF is tempted with my car... and the VED wasn't too horrific at only £25 pa more, so it might nearly make sense to do it
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Id keep it, it can only fall another 4 grand for the rest of its life, which is cheap. Most people change their car because they have got bored and only in the case of drastic downsizing does it make financial sense.
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and only in the case of drastic downsizing does it make financial sense
Right ! (still get bored though)
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A customer of mine puts the price of boredom at £20k a year over two cars always bought new and sold at two years old. Now thats depreciation.
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There's probably a fancy name for this but until someone remembers it I'll be cheeky enough to lay temporary claim to it !
Allow me if you will to present "Humph's Paradox".........
Expensive car + powerful engine = Expensive fun and feeling of satisaction / achievement maybe. ( As I recall anyway ) To get the fun you have to drive at licence threatening velocities
Inexpensive car + moderate power means you can drive the nuts off it reasonably legally and without worrying about it too much. This is also fun.
To return to topic, I would keep it. Soon as you trade up again the new one will start falling in value much faster than the upkeep costs of the old one. Especially if you like the current one but don't see yourself justifying anything as pleasant to replace it.....
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I'll tell Mrs P that I have a touch of Humph's Paradox tomorrow - should get me off an afternoon of painting. Hpwever you describe the thing perfectly.
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Agree with the others. If you buy new, I think you either change it every 3-4 years or run it till it drops. The Volvo is worth much more to you - not just financially - than you'd get for it in PX for something that might not cruise the M40 in such comfort.
I may be unusual that I'm a chartered accountant who doesn't think money is the only consideration in motoring, although of course it's an essential one. In your position I'd hang on to the Volvo until it gets unreliable - because you clearly like it and enjoy driving it. Maybe save up in the long term for a C30 D5 - that must have a very good power-to-weight ratio - but new ones are very expensive.
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Just seen PU's post - "Hpwever you describe the thing perfectly. "
Oh dear - we're driving our moderators to drink.........Vision of PU, laptop on lap and fifth glass of red wine beside him.....
(Sorry - I make lots of typos myself but I couldn't resist 'Hpwever')
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Watching a rather good film at the same time - touch typing is bit iffy.
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Just been through this with the Jag, bought at just under 3 years with 43K taken to 84k in 18 months. Bought for 20K, full warranty ceases at 100K & has balloon of 6600 at the end of 3 years, what do you do? So got out of it & into a 2007 car with 15K for 21,490 with a 6600 balloon again hopefully the mileage will be a bit more sensible so can be kept under sensible warranty levels. CR diesels are far too much of a liability to be run outside the warranty period. Been there before & got severely bitten! This time round was close to going for a petrol but decided to stick with a diseasel.
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decided to stick with a diseasel
Good word! :)
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You've got to keep it.
Here's another scenario - if you've got a bit bored with it, give it some proper loving. Maybe a professional valet/detail, or DIY if you have the time. De-ding it if it has some battle scars. Volvos normally polish up beautifully.
Get onto the Volvo owners forum and get a recommendation for a really good indy near you, hopefully that'll save a few quid on servicing too.
But, in the spirit of this forum, best of luck whatever you decide to do.
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Good thread this, I've got two new words / phrases I rather like out of it. Diseasel and De-ding. I shall blatantly steal those in future........
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I first saw the word 'diseasel' in a Thomas the Tank Engine series book by the Rev W Awdrey, nearly 50 years ago. It was called 'Duck and the Diesel Engine'.
It still sums up my feelings about the filthy, smelly stuff, even though I've been running about for the past couple of weeks in a Citroen C3 HDI that does nearly 60mpg.
22 euros for half a tank is all very well - but give me a big car with a big petrol engine any day, and the faster they depreciate the better I'll be pleased.
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I first saw the word 'diseasel' in a Thomas the Tank Engine series book by the Rev W Awdrey nearly 50 years ago. It was called 'Duck and the Diesel Engine'. It still sums up my feelings about the filthy smelly stuff
I have never minded the smell of diesel, because I'm not in the habit of sniffing it. :)
But I liked diesel engines in the 80s and 90s, because their simplicity and robustness made them reliable and long-lasting: there as very little to go wrong.
To my mind, the "diseasels" are the modern common rail variety, with their DMFs and DPFs, turbos ready to overheat, common rail pumps ready to be killed expensively by misfuelling, and bags of electronics to defeat the back-street repairer.
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But I liked diesel engines in the 80s and 90s because their simplicity and robustness made them reliable and long-lasting: there as very little to go wrong. To my mind the "diseasels" are the modern common rail >>
But have you driven one? 50% more power and twice as much torque as their 80/90s predesessors whilst being even more economical, petrol levels of refinement at anything over idle, V8 levels of torque from below 2000rpm, I have had 130,000 miles out of one without any of the issues you mention.
It is surely a case of those with problems gravitating to a site like this so you, I and others on here are exposed to CR, DMF "horror stories" though the vast majority are reliable and deliver immeasurable benefits over older diseasels.
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I say keep it. I was thinking of trading mine in earlier this year (mines a 2.0T though) and was appalled at the p/x offers - £2500, £2700, £2800. Its a Y reg and had done 65k at that point with a full Volvo sh and has a few nice optional extras. Its a great car and while it needs a bit of work doing which I suspect will cost a small fortune nothing for the equivalent money offers anthting like the all round package you get in the Volvo. I've more or less decided to run it into the ground
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I tend to agree with the 'keep it' tendency here. I've been through the same hand-wringing calculations - until recentyl that is.
What turned me off were the appallingly low trade-in values (private not much better) for my current, perfectly servicable, comfortable & (relatively) economical car. I think this may be a quite a factor for many too: do I want a new 'toy' because I've gotten bored with the old one (a factor in many discretionary car purchases I'm sure..) that much, that I'm willing to crystallize the depreciation loss? - Well no, for me anyway.
It's like giving-up smoking (I imagine - I still enjoy that form of self-abuse..) - you suddenly realise you don't need what you've been fretting over & planning for - it's a sort of delusion.
Still, it's fast motorbikes for me now - biggest bang for buck out there - and keep the 'old' car till it drops.
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Hmmm - thanks everyone. Seems almost unanimous, with the possible exception of TR7V8 - whose logic, I confess, was a bit too compressed for me to follow. I'm in a virally-enfeebled state at the moment, so I'm sure the problem's with me. }:---).......
Anyway, yes, keep it. Seems sensible, even if it does have a CR diesel engine. My maximum annual cost of ownership now is about £4000, plus the non-routine service items - so say £5000 in all - divided by as long as it lasts. It should still be worth something to someone in another two years. Yes, I do still like it - more than ever since it graduated to a full set of Michelin Primacy HP in April. And I want a new hi-fi amplifier much more than I want a new car.
Now, about this de-dinging business. The doors have a few car-park pockmarks, one mirror left some paint on a pillar as I was leaving my previous place of work for the last time, and there's a small dent in the roof that I put there myself by leaning on a bit that clearly wasn't meant to be leant on as I was attaching the roof bars. But yes, it does still polish up very nicely, so it might be an idea to get rid of the blemishes. Where should I start looking?
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.....But yes, it does still polish up very nicely, so it might be an idea to get rid of the blemishes. Where should I start looking?.....
Whereabouts are you based?
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>Whereabouts are you based?
Warwickshire. But I spend a lot of days near Heathrow, so somewhere round there would be a possibility.
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Keep the S60 and enjoy it until for a couple more years yet.
As for the C30, I had one as a courtesy car the other day. It was a 2.4 5 pot petrol auto. Nice enough car, I'd forgotten how much nicer that engine note is in the petrol compared to the D5, but it lacked any real usable performance (T5 would have been OK, I guess) and the ride was awful compared to my S80. Way too hard and unforgiving on anything other than perfect surfaces, even dual carriageways were bone shaking experiences. Not a patch on the S80 or S60 for long motorway runs. I might still buy a C30 D5 or T5 myself at some point, because I did like it (apart from silly boot), but not if I was planning long journeys every day.
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Its all a matter of what you want and your circumstances. There seem to be some real bargain big cars about and I couldn't resist getting one. I do 12k a year and this car does about 30mpg compared with the 40 or so I was getting before. With luck I won't be paying out too much more in maitainance, I have had some walloping bills from small cars in the past so this aspect is not really forseable. This car I have falls just before the date when the tax for big engines goes through the roof and to my utter astonishment I am paying £100 appx less insurance.
The plus side is I really enjoy my diving and with luck will keep the car for a few years rather than the two I normally did and I don't think I will be overall any worse off......however my calculations have often been a source of amusement to swmbo.
Mate of mines wife says the BMW he has is short for big money waster.
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What did you buy, may I ask?
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>...I really enjoy my diving...
Something big and submersible, we deduce.
};---)
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i've been through the same thing, albeit with considerably less mileage. My way of dealing with it was to decide to keep it and go a bit mad and get every little niggly, tiny thing done, in one go, which was a £1,200 hit....and then had a perfect car that i really liked. (I counteracted that with buying a lot newer, then having to take the depreciation hit).
over the past 6.5 years i've had nearly 4 years of hardly any trouble, 18 months of a few bills coming in...and now nearly a year of nothing again, so hoping i've cracked the 'bills stage', having had things done properly & the bits that unnecessarily fail being newer parts that the manufacturer has re-engineered, if there have been faults.
i would suggest a good Volvo marque independent, do they do a Volvo magazine?, for people to advertise in, that's how I found my Jag one.
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This guy Paul comes recommended:
07836785052 www.dentzinc.co.uk
He's in Slough.
HTH
Barchettaman
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>>But now the S60 seems to be costing me more than I?d expected. I hadn?t
>>appreciated how far big car values have fallen
So, if I may put this another way, essentially you want to replace your car BECAUSE it has fallen in value.
If it had still been worth 10k, you wouldn't think about replacing it, but because it's fallen to 3k, you would.
In other words, you are ashamed to be seen by the neighbours in a near-worthless car.
(I don't actually think that's what you thought you meant...)
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>If it had still been worth 10k, you wouldn't think about replacing it, but because it's fallen to 3k, you would.
Not quite, MM - but a fair observation anyway. What I was concerned about was that I had missed - or was in the process of missing - my best opportunity to trade in my car while it still had some value.
Fortunately, my neighbours and I have very little we need to prove to one another!
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IMO you said it yourself:
replacing a few biggish items now will set the car up for another two or three years; and that I might as well enjoy a little more of that five-cylinder warble?>>
If it has cost you £8k in depreciation over 4 years even if it were to be worth zero in 3 years time then it would only have cost you another, say, £4k and would still only be 10 years old.
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Not quite MM - but a fair observation anyway.
It is effectively what you wrote... although I fully accept that it wasn't quite what was going through your mind as you wrote it, it is the corollary of your writings.
"Mine is probably worth [now only] between £3,000 and £3,500 [which] has set me wondering again about the wisdom of my plan to keep the S60 going for another year or two."
You only have to add in one word, and change the value, to see what I mean:
"Mine is probably worth [still] £10,000 [which justifies] my plan to keep the S60 going for another year or two."
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The car is only run in at 83k miles with the kind of daily journey you describe I think you will wear out before it does provided the oil and filter get changed every 12k miles.
It sounds like you have either had the main S60 jobs done (bushes and engine mount) or will have them done in the next 12k miles (cambelt).
There is an excellent indie in Nottingham - just round the corner from you in Warwickshire given your daily commute :)
Only other thing you will have to do in time will be wheel bearings and suspension.
As I said above, use the correct fully synthetic oil changing every 12k miles with a filter and there's not much goes wrong with these engines, unless you are unlucky with the cambelt tensioner but, given the cars motorway usage, would not expect this to be an issue.
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My 2 litre TDi Golf would have been £1000+ at main dealer for cam belt and service. I've been using the same independent for years and the bill was £628 with all the above plus 2 new tyres. He's saved me a fortune over the years and done a better job I reckon (on all my cars). Surely if you buy a new C30 you'll lose as much, or more, anyway? And that will cost in servicing too. Can't see how buying new or nearly new will save money, even with moderately expensive maintenance. No brainer for me, the old one should go on for years.
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I heard a story today about some banker in the City, now ex-banker, who just sold a 1 year old bentley for 60K which he paid about 135K for last year.
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