9 points and another speeding ticket! - skoda_yorkie
Hi, I drive about 1000+ miles per week for my job and have picked up nine points over time. This week I received another notification that I'd been caught over the speed limit and am terrified that if this goes to court and I get another three points I will lose my licence and my job!
Apparently when I was flashed I was doing 48 in a 30 zone but as the road is mainly 50 with stretches of 30 this is possible though I cannot honestly remeber seeing a sign or a speed camera.
Has anyone out there been in this situation? How did it work out? Is there any approach that I should take to get the courts to go easy on me?
I am in my sixties so hardly a boy racer and losing my job at this stage in life I don't fancy my chances of getting another. Should I be preparing for the worst?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - mustangman
You have my sympathy. I've gained 9 points this year from the dreaded white vans in 30 limits - so very easy to do.
I don't have direct knowledge ( I'm driving so that I don't get it ! ) but I think with doing 48 in a 30 there is every chance that you will receive a ban.
Hopefully others will be able to help you a little more.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - ifithelps
There's a well-liked (by most) mod on here who knows this topic a bit better than I, but...

I sat through a case the other week that on the face of it looks similar to yours.

A van driver was facing a ban and he successfully pleaded undue hardship - loss of job - and the magistrates did not ban him.

He was fined and told he could not plead undue hardship in future.

He represented himself and did a good job of portraying himself as an honest, hardworking man.

Apparently his employers put pressure on him to get to jobs quickly, hence the speeding.

If that's right, the employer should be ashamed of himself, but that's another story.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - P3t3r
You could go back and look for a sign. If the sign can't easily be seen eg. covered by bushes then you may have a chance. 48 in a 30 limit is very high though, and I'm sure it must have been 30 for a reason. On roads like that there are usually other clues other than the signs such as street lamps.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Group B
A friend of mine accrued 12 points. He went to court and pleaded that a driving ban would lose him his job and create hardship. He was unmarried and without children at the time.
He got 13 points on his licence and IIRC a £500 fine, but was not banned. That was about 8 years ago.

I dont know the finer details of his court appearance.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Mapmaker
Hm. I must say that 48 in a 30 zone is grossly negligent - your speedo will have been reading over 50. Even if you're not banned, you certainly deserve the threat and worry of a ban hanging over you for the next few weeks. There is a reason why they ban people for driving like that. May I suggest reading road signs as you pass them, learning what they mean, and following what they say.

A ticket every 50,000 miles is a very high rate of attrition imho, and if you drive like that, you deserve some time off the road. Like it or not, the law is there for a reason, and by agreeing to live in the UK, we agree to follow the laws.


That said, for the sake of your job, I hope they do let you off, I certainly hope it makes you a better driver in the future - leave your heroics for a holiday in Germany or a day on a racetrack.



Edited by Mapmaker on 03/10/2008 at 10:28

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Pugugly
All I can suggest is get a solicitor :-

(a) To defend you on a technicality - if you have one on a not guilty basis.

(b) To mitigate any likely punishment if you cop a plea.

Nuff said I think - no need to keep flaming the OP.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
Can we flame the OP if they knock down a child while doing their 48 in a 30? Would it be ok then?

On the actual point of the post, I would guess it depends on if they perceive the OP as a continued threat to others safety - if the OP then did knock someone down etc if they were let off, would be a sticky situation for the person who allowed them to continue driving and they do have 'form' for gathering points already.
Depends on the day I guess but 48 in a 30 is a bit excessive, even most speeders would recognise that much.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - skoda_yorkie
Completely take this point, not in this habit just unlucky and do a lot of miles. That said thogh yes I am ashamed of myself and would never knowingly do that sort of speed in a 30.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - skoda_yorkie
You rekon a solicitor rather than defending yourself? Are JPs likely to be swayed by this?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Robin Reliant
A shopowner I know had the same problem three years ago. He went to court armed with a solicitor, pleaded undue hardship and got away with a fine rather than a ban. I would think a good motoring solicitor is essential, he or she would know the sort of presentation most likely to convince the magistrates to let you keep your licence. Definately a case of a man who acts as his own lawyer having a fool for a client.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Zub
I've recently started driving 1000+ miles a week too (although only 2 trips a week!). I bought a satnav with a speed camera database that also show the speed limits of the road you are currently on. You can also set the voice to nag you if you go over the speed limit by an amount of your choosing.

I know it won't help the OP now but I would recommend it for others who maybe already have points on their license and want help to stop wandering over the speed limit. The unit was only £90 and was money well spent.

I also find using my cruise control as a speed limiter is a great help for those sections of the A1 that have a 50mph limit!
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Pugugly
Its a matter for you really - solicitor should be experienced in presenting a case as another poster said - defending yourself is pretty easy and you will be assisted by the Clerk (which is more than a professional gets !). You could go hybrid - get your professional advice and then represent yourself. The bench won't be swayed whether you do it yourself or not.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
48 in a 30
limit is very high though and I'm sure it must have been 30 for a
reason.


Really? What do you base that on? It's not an argument that would serve any purpose in court at all and unfortunately it doesn't help the OP, but without knowing exactly which road it is and the conditions at the time, I think it is something of an unfounded leap of faith to assume there was a good (i.e. based solely on safe, efficient traffic flow) reason that 48 wasn't legal. There are some utterly preposterous speed limits out there.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Armitage Shanks {p}
GJD - you say " think it is something of an unfounded leap of faith to assume there was a good (i.e. based solely on safe, efficient traffic flow) reason that 48 wasn't legal. There are some utterly preposterous speed limits out there."

The 30 limit may or may not be sensible but, if it is legally authorised and correctly signed, it is against the law to do 48 mph in it!

9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
The 30 limit may or may not be sensible but if it is legally authorised
and correctly signed it is against the law to do 48 mph in it!


Absolutely - hence the note that my point wouldn't serve any purpose in court. 48 in a 30 is illegal and that's all that matters in court.

I confined my disagrement to the apparent automatic assumption that if 48 was illegal, it had to be for a good reason. That assumption, if I am not misrepresenting P3t3r, is what struck me as unfounded.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
I think it is something of an unfounded leap of faith to assume there was a
good (i.e. based solely on safe efficient traffic flow) reason that 48 wasn't legal.


If your definition of a good reason is "based solely on safe efficient traffic flow", then the assumption may well be false. There are many other reasons for limiting traffic speed, such as reducing road noise near buildings, facilitating other non-vehicular road-users (e.g. horses or cyclists), or calming the traffic to reopen an area to pedestrians.

Motorways are a vehicle-only environment, but other roads are to varying degrees a shared-use zone. It's a pity that some drivers seem unwilling to accept that, which is why we end up having to plaster speedbumps and other traffic-calming devices around residential neighbourhoods.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
If your definition of a good reason is "based solely on safe efficient traffic flow"
then the assumption may well be false.

Motorways are a vehicle-only environment but other roads are to varying degrees a shared-use zone.


To clarify - when I say "safe", I mean it to include the safety of all road users, not just car drivers.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
"A ticket every 50,000 miles is a very high rate of attrition imho, and if you drive like that, you deserve some time off the road. Like it or not, the law is there for a reason, and by agreeing to live in the UK, we agree to follow the laws."

Some people here are very judgemental without knowing the facts. 48 in a 30 might be very dangerous driving, in which case he should be banned. But there are cases where a road is signed as 30 despite being a dual carriageway with railings either side and no houses nearby. A colleague recently got done on a road like that. Maybe the 30 limit has a purpose ... maybe not ...

That said, I think it is getting to the stage where it is so easy to get a ticket through missing a speed limit sign. All it takes is someone to cut you up, or a big lorry to swerve, and take your attention away from the signs just before a 30 limit begins, or for overgrown trees to hide the signs, and bingo. Where I used to live, the 30 signs were placed at a junction between a road and a roundabout. Now when you approach a roundabout, there are often stationary cars, and lorries which can obscure the signs. And your attention is on safely entering the roundabout, not signs. So I twice nearly got a ticket. And where I lived there were 20mph signs at the start of the road. But if you turned left into the road from the main road, you could not see the signs. Not that I condone excess speed, but it is getting rediculous.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - movilogo
Nowadays, losing a job is not always considered hardship.

However, if you can show that putting a ban on you will make another person suffer (eg. you need to look after your 100-yr old granny who lives 50 miles aways with no public transport) then you have a chance.

I don't think it is a DIY job - consult a good motoring lawyer. You have 9 points and still didn't learn from past mistakes?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Falkirk Bairn
As in a previous post this week a local MP was on 9 pts - got 3 pts for 82mph on a motorway and is now either a pedestrian or being a passenger in someone else's car.

82 mph in a 70 sounds less dangerous than 48mph in a 30 limit!
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Steve Pearce
The magistrates guideline for a 48 in a 30 is:

Eligible for COFP instead? Yes: £60 + 3 points
Points: 4-6
Normal fine range: £750 - £750
Disqualification possible? Consider 7-28 days
Maximum fine: £1000
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Jonathan {p}
What happens if you get banned? Do the points on your licence get expunged once the ban is up, or do they stay there for 3 years, if so can you continue to tot up?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - movilogo
IIRC a ban wipes the points off from license. In that sense, a short ban [~ 7-28 days] is not that bad.

Though insurance premium will go up a considerable amount.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Steve Pearce
Short term bans do not wipe existing points. If the ban is due to totting up, the points do get wiped.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Brian Tryzers
>...dreaded white vans in 30 limits - so very easy to do...

Maybe, but also so very easy NOT to do. My guess is that most who claim to find the 30mph limit hard to stick to (and I appreciate the OP's case here is different - it was the comment from Mustangman that prompted me) habitually drive such roads in fourth gear. I used to do that too, until I spent a day at my then-employer's expense with an ex-police instructor, who showed me how much more controllable the car is in third.
30 in most manuals is just below the natural change-up point to fourth, so you get an audible warning from the engine note if you unintentionally pick up speed; you get significantly more engine braking, so you can position the car much more accurately in a traffic stream without using the brakes; and you can lose quite a lot of speed without having to change down when you need to accelerate again. I've yet to find a car this doesn't work in - from a 1.1-litre Fiat Punto to a Volvo D5.

A quick search shows ROSPA offers the same advice:
www.rospa.com/roadsafety/toptentips/thirdgear.htm

I've mentioned this before and run into extraordinary objections like 'But my car will use more fuel if I drive in third'; even if that were true, the starting point here is avoiding speeding fines, which cost a lot more than petrol even at today's prices.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - daveyjp
Totally agree WDB - our Aygo in third is a brilliant car to drive. On urban 30 limit roads you very rarely have to change gear as it's so flexible, you can slow 15mph or so in third for hazards and then increase to 30 again without the need to change gear.

If you drive in 4th at 30 as soon as you drop to 25 it's drop a cog to third, then increase back to 30, up a cog to 4th.

I read of some owners driving at 30 in 5th on the false assumption it's more fuel efficient - the car may feel like it's running OK, but the engine is being laboured and there is very little control - acceleration from this speed in 5th is nil.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Dwight Van Driver
On presumes one has done the check to see that all the 9 points are all valid? Of so then
Three methods to consider -

(1) Employ a brief well versed in traffic matters to plead your case with as much mitigation as can be mustered. Your talking an extra three figures on top of the fine, plus CPS Prosecution Costs (30 -70?) and Victim Support £15.

(2) Represent your self and again marshall all the mitigation you can - dry road, good visiblity, light traffic travelling roughly same speed etc etc. Also as mentioned above plead a ban would cause hardship, possible loss of employment etc and PRODUCE evidence of this where possible (letters from Boss etc). Bear in mind you cannot use this card again for IRC 3 years.

(3) Whilst the Bench have the power to disqualify for 6 months under totting they can look at the case and punishment for the offence before them and impose a lesser disqualification (28 -56 days) which may be more acceptable. In doing this they can leave the 9 points already on the licence as a preventive measure for the future as opposed to sending a driver out after the 6 months disqualification with a clean sheet.

dvd
9 points and another speeding ticket! - mustangman
WDB My comment about it being easy to exceed 30 mostly relates to the simple fact that the majority of drivers travel faster than 30 in a 30 limit. If you follow the other traffic you will tend to do 35 > 40 mph. It takes concentration to remain at 30, since on some roads it feels so slow you feel you are travelling at walking pace. Naturally those white vans tend to gather at such streches.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Brian Tryzers
Of course. But if you do 35-40 in third, the engine will be howling for a change-up and if you have even half your wits about you you get the message and back off. In fourth, the engine just thinks "This is more like it" and trundles happily onward.

Curious tangential point here: we have two biggish diesels - a five-speed Volvo and a six-speed Toyota. At motorway cruise speed, the Volvo is running at about 2,600rpm - comfortably in the middle of its torque plateau. The Toyota, on the other hand, is at more like 2,200rpm, with lots of torque to spare. Consequently, I find the Toyota, although it has less outright power and blunter aerodynamics, much more eager to go significantly faster than it should.

My suspicion is that there are a lot of drivers - and I mean to cast no aspersions on Mustangman here - who simply don't want to stick to 30 because, granted, it can feel slow. And I have no problem with the authorities targeting those people. As you say, it's about concentration, which is about the most important quality a driver can have.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - ifithelps
Third gear in a 30mph limit, fourth in a 40mph and fifth in a 50mph works well for most five speed cars.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - movilogo
But 4th in 30 & 5th in 40 often more economical (at least in my car, fuel consumption display shows this)
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Mapmaker
The 30 in 3rd rule works very well with an auto. Particularly well, in fact. In an auto there is a temptation to go just at 33, just so that it runs nicely in 4th. Whereas, if you manually select 3rd, temptation disappears and you get a nice audible warning.


Those who find it difficult to stick to 30 in a 30 are those who would benefit particularly from legal sanction - I am pretty unsympathetic to their problem; if they really are such poor drivers that they are unable so to do, then they should be relieved of their driving licences. In reality they are perfectly capable of it.

It is very notable that in average speed camera sections that every car is perfectly capable of travelling at 30/40/50mph.

The sooner average cameras are universal, the sooner people will become better, more attentive drivers.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
The sooner average cameras are universal the sooner people will become better more attentive drivers.


What in heaven's name makes you think that Mapmaker? Half the carphounds are asleep already, and that will send most of the rest to sleep. We will all end up clamouring to emigrate to Saudi Arabia just to get out of the dreary hypnotised processions of 'attentive drivers' waddling untidily along 5mph below the posted limit... After that the religious police with their canes and crazed princes doing 155 in Porsche Cayennes will seem refreshing.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - pd
I'd have agreed 10 years ago that most people do 35-40mph in a 30 but I am not so sure now. Most seem to do about 30-32 even if that often is 33-36 ish on their speedo particularly in a normal urban street. Urban dual carriageways and the like maybe the average speed is a bit faster.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Pugugly
I agree Lud - I was on the way to a funeral today, stuck behind a mimser in a Nissan Micra - sticking resolutely to 40 on an excellent 60mph country road. All he did (I was in the Golf) was make me frustrated and long to blow him into the weeds with a speed limit x 1.5 blast. He was asleep.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
In 1975, following two fellow minicabbers down the Clapham Road in the small hours of the morning after convivial pies at the stall outside Waterloo Station, I noticed a dozing small security van swerve wildly as we passed it in shock and horror at our sudden appearance. Looking down at the speedometer as we lifted off in unison for our turning, I was mildly surprised to see the needle on 80.

Kids today? Don't know they're alive! (Actually I have to say I don't think I would do that now).
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
sq
Frankly were you to do that, I would hope they threw the book at you. I recall as a student more than once walking/cycling back from a party 'tired and emotional'. Thank goodness I did not meet you!

Edited by Pugugly on 03/10/2008 at 21:14

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
You couldn't do it now with all the cameras and so on. There's more meandering half-asleep 24-hour traffic too.

Of course I wouldn't do it now cameras or no. It was pretty mad actually although we knew the place and what we were doing. I wouldn't try to defend it. But professional London minicabbers had a sort of arrogance in those days. It was a game to me - one that earned steady money - and one I enjoyed, until it got boring.

And oddly enough it made me a slower, more cunning and cautious driver.

Edited by Lud on 04/10/2008 at 00:45

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Mapmaker
Half the carphounds are asleep already, and that will send most of the rest to sleep.


I am sorry if doing 30 in a 30 area sends you to sleep, Lud.

Somebody doing 40 in a 60 is a mimser. Somebody doing 30 in a 30 is a responsible citizen. Simplicity itself, really.


People are quite capable of slowing down to do an accurate 30 through a Gatso; and they are quite capable of doing an accurate 30 in an average-speed-camera 30. So quite honestly all these "it's too difficult", "it's the car's fault, not mine", "I don't want to pay attention to my speedo it's too dangerous" excuses are all tripe.

The truth is either "I'm not paying attention to my driving" or "I'm deliberately speeding". The former deserves to have the book thrown at him - and ideally the key thrown away; the latter cannot complain if caught.

Nothing - camera nor animate object - can identify the difference between the two sorts of drivers, so it is only fair to punish both lots.

At least in Saudi there's no risk of encountering a drunk driver... ;)

As somebody correctly identifies, we'd much rather that the police were out catching burglars rather than speeding motorists. Speed cameras enable that to happen; we should embrace them with gratitude
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
As somebody correctly identifies we'd much rather that the police were out catching burglars rather
than speeding motorists. Speed cameras enable that to happen; we should embrace them with gratitude



Who do you think empties and refills the speed cameras? Who do you think mans the radar guns, and the so-called Tally-vans?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
I am sorry if doing 30 in a 30 area sends you to sleep Lud.

You miss my point Mm. Heavy enforcement of speed limits already often too low, and getting lower everywhere, slows and hypnotises the traffic. The standard of driving, already poor enough to need to be addressed, will inevitably decline even further. And no one will drive at the limit. They will drive well below it, gaping and chewing the cud.
>>
At least in Saudi there's no risk of encountering a drunk driver... ;)


Better a good drunk driver than a bad sober one, any day or night.
catching burglars rather
than speeding motorists. Speed cameras enable that to happen; we should embrace them with gratitude

There is no evidence whatsoever that speed cameras free up plod to catch burglars. That is, er, ovoids.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
Dont burglars speed too? They always seem to be on telly :-)
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
The truth is either "I'm not paying attention to my driving" or "I'm deliberately speeding".
The former deserves to have the book thrown at him - and ideally the key
thrown away; the latter cannot complain if caught.


Most 30mph limits apply to built-up areas where a half-asleep amoeba should realise that it's a 30mph zone, and in those cases I fully agree with your book- and key-throwing remedies to someone doing 48. A visit to the LART cupboard would be in order too.

I have little sympathy for those complaining about like of signs when entering a built-up area, because the streetlights and buildings should be a clear warning to an alert driver. However, there are occasionally 30mph limits whose purpose is less clear. Sometimes the lack of clarity is due to the houses being behind high hedges, and sometimes it's because the 30mph notice is lost in a forest of signs, and if it's one of those situations, then I think that the OP may have some reasonable grounds for complaint.

That's a big IF, though. If the OP already has 9 points, lack of attention seems like the lost likely explanation. No doubt the full facts will be set before the magistrates, who will make their decision accordingly
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
NowWheels: A very sensible post IMO. FYI I understand that a low speed limit can also be imposed for reasons other than safety, such as reducing road noise.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - krs one
I've been doing a similar mileage to the OP for the last 6 years and have miraculously remained point free. I would agree with other posters about dropping into 3rd in 30 limits, and don't worry about what speed people around you are doing. I do think these days a lot more people stick to the limits than used to.

Tips for keeping a clean licence, keep to speed limit in towns, use motorways as much as possible, if late, make time on the motorway, not in a 30 limit.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GroovyMucker
Try to find a good local solicitor - one local to where you committed the offence - and avoid the usual big names, who tend to put benches' backs up. They will know the bench, know which approach plays best, and will also tell you what you need to do to show exceptional hardship.

Exceptional hardship is an area where a bench's sympathy is often extended even when not strictly met.

Contrition always sounds good.

Good luck.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - movilogo
use motorways as much as possible


I was quite worried to learn that an MP was nicked for doing 81 MPH on motorway!

I (and I'm sure many BRs as well) often do indicated 85-90 mph on motorways.

Since they realized that scameras are not catching enough people, started fishing in motorways as well.

:(
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
>>The sooner average cameras are universal, the sooner people will become better, more attentive drivers.<<

Too right. Speed cameras/mobile units only worry those who want to break the law - when it is a downright certainty, people seem to find it within themselves to suddenly manage just fine. So what if its slow, its the law - the same rule of law that stops another motorist taking a blunt object to you when you fly past their childs school at 40 plus. Dont bite the hand that feeds.

My misses auto Picanto has virtually no engine braking at 30 as it slips into 4th by then - take it down a gear or two and it has no problem. Its no hardship.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Armitage Shanks {p}
"Dont bite the hand that feeds." What does this mean? The police don't 'feed' me - I do! I will not be drawn into a what are the police doing rant but I must point out that the clear up rate, minimal effort to achieve it and the money taken in plus meeting their performance indicators using speed cameras is a whole lot easier than turning out to burglaries, street violence, gatherings of threatening chavs etc. The police do what their managers tell them to and this isn't necessarily what the public want them to do!

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Pugugly
"Not going into a Police rant" - back on topic please !
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Alby Back
Do it yourself. Show genuine remorse. Tell the truth. Say, if you mean it, that you have learned your lesson.

Good luck, there but for the.....etc.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Robin Reliant
Modern cars are so smooth it can be difficult to gauge your speed by "Feel" like you used to. Perhaps if manufacturers were made to fit straight through exhausts and stiffer suspension it would be easier to stick to the limits.

I'm off now before someone takes me seriously.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
>>"Dont bite the hand that feeds." What does this mean? <<

If you want the rule of law to protect you from law breakers, dont then expect to get away with breaking it yourself. You must be young if you have never heard of the saying.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
"The sooner average cameras are universal, the sooner people will become better, more attentive drivers."

I completely disagree. I have recently started catching myself driving to a speed limit, rather than safely, and I'm having to mentally kick myself to snap out of it. Problem is when you can get points from speeding, the temptation is to pay attention to the speed limit, and speed limit signs, rather than driving at a safe speed. (I used to poo poo people who said such things. Now I'm not so sure.)
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Westpig
" Problem is when you can get points from speeding the temptation is to pay attention to the speed limit and speed limit signs rather than driving at a safe speed. (I
used to poo poo people who said such things. Now I'm not so sure.)


It's a well known fact that road planners will leave a limit in place, rather than have it speed up for a bit, then have to be lowered a bit further on...(where a number of people won't notice the change)... so despite the fact that the road conditions might dictate a slightly or noticeably higher limit, they don't do it. Furthermore limits are set in place as a low common denominator, which by definition would mean there would be times that a bit more speed isn't that great a deal.

...so some people seeing that particularly law fall into disrepute, ignore it. Not saying that's right, but I am saying the road planners should set the limits more intelligently, to encourage people to obey them.....and 20mph limits everywhere is not the way to do it, why not have 20mph just at specific times e.g. when the kids are going to/from school

there are times/places on my regular commute where doing 30 in the 30mph limit would be well pushing it....there are other times/places when 60 in the 30 mph would not be a problem at all... (and that might be down to the time of day, weather, road conditions and inappropriate limit set in the first place).

Those that automatically state that speeding is insane and dangerous, need to open their eyes a bit... although i'd agree there are times when that is true, very much so
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Mapmaker
>>Those that automatically state that speeding is insane and dangerous, need to open their eyes a bit...

Of course it's not if we follow your compelling argument... Except that it is, because it's a matter of expectation. If you glance over your shoulder, whilst in a 20mph zone, and see a car several hundred yards away, you know you are safe to cross the road; except that car is doing 48mph, and kills you.

It's not you, it's the other person. Campaign for higher speeds if you wish - I agree. But until then, obey the law. You won't get speed limits changed by breaking them, getting points, and paying £60 fines, now, will you?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - skoda_yorkie
The magistrates guideline for a 48 in a 30 is:
Eligible for COFP instead? Yes: £60 + 3 points


what is COFP?
Points: 4-6
Normal fine range: £750 - £750
Disqualification possible? Consider 7-28 days
Maximum fine: £1000


What does this mean, only get disqual for 7 - 28 days?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
what is COFP?


A Conditional Offer of an Fixed Penalty (Notice). Basically a letter saying own up to being guilty, and we'll give you a fine and 3 points without any need to put on a posh suit and explain yourself to some people from a posh background ...
9 points and another speeding ticket! - FotheringtonThomas
>> what is COFP?
fine and 3 points without any need to
put on a posh suit and explain yourself to some people from
a posh background...


Magistrates do not necessarily have that. I know a couple who are very down to earth. The "salt" of it, in facht, if not that they float in a thin crust upon the surface it.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Paul I
Sorry i don't by this "I drive about 1000+ miles per week for my job " crap as I have guys at work who do 2000 plus miles per week and don't get nicked, face facts you've been caught already 3 times had points and a fine each time, how many more times are you to be told that you drive beyond the law.

I say this as someone who has points for speeding has it changed my behavior .... to right. Clearly you don't concentrate when you drive as your a habitual speeder.

"am terrified that if this goes to court and I get another three points I will lose my licence and my job! TOUGH

" Apparently when I was flashed I was doing 48 in a 30 zone but as
the road is mainly 50 with stretches of 30 this is possible though I cannot
honestly remeber seeing a sign or a speed camera" YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION AND GET YOUR EYES TESTED >


any approach that I should take to get the courts to go easy on me?
YOU CLEARLY HOLD THE LAW IN CONTEMPT
I am in my sixties so hardly a boy racer and losing my job at
this stage in life I don't fancy my chances of getting another. Should I be
preparing for the worst? YOU SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE THE EVENT

Edited by Webmaster on 04/10/2008 at 00:59

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Robin Reliant
Nothing like a bit of sympathy, eh?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Mapmaker
Nothing like a bit of sympathy eh?


Quite. For the pedestrian who is knocked down by a car travelling at over 50% over the speed limit that he didn't see because it wasn't supposed to be there yet.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Armitage Shanks {p}
PI. What's with all the shouting? It is possible for limits to change for no obvious reason and for signage to be obscured or unlit. OP has asked for advice on getting a lenient outcome - that doesn't mean he holds the law in contempt; quite the reverse, he is aware of its powers and is trying to get a good outcome. Are you trying to be helpful or just airing your views?

Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 03/10/2008 at 20:56

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Paul I
Both....., I would hope that having been caught no less han on 3 previous pccasions the OP would have learnt, clearly he does hold the law in contempt as he keeps getting caught 12 points collected over a period of under 5 years would suggest this.

This guy I would suggest seek professional help in the form of driving instruction and a very good brief!!

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
sq
Alternatively it indicates that he drives a lot ... though I know nothing else about his driving.

Edited by Pugugly on 03/10/2008 at 22:56

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Bill Payer
Lovin' the 'holier than thou' attitude from some posters! These are the probably the same people who think drivers who put petrol in diesels are thick and who never make a mistake themselves.

If you're driving in different parts of the country, as many high mileage drivers do frequently, then it's very easy to get caught out by changing speed limits. I was driving in Bucks a couple of weeks ago along a road that changed several times from NSL straight to 30 (and I thought that wasn't allowed) and it was a road where a hidden Bobby with a laser gun would have had a field day.

At least a couple of times that I braked into the 30's (which often appeared around bends with no warning) cars zoomed passed me, sometimes in the most dangerous of places. Of course, if one of them had swerved into me to avoid an oncoming vehicle, then not my fault, but could have been avoided if I'd driven at a more reasonable for the conditions speed.

It's very easy for me to stick to limits (as long as I know that I'm in them) as my car has a speed limiter, and I'm not the sort of person to be intimidated by other road users. I'm not stupid about it - in a 30 I set it at 33MPH. However, many limits are set unnaturally low and that causes much frustration amongst other drivers such that I'm frequently overtaken.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - scouseford
Bill Payer

Putting petrol into diesel engined cars and driving at 48mph in a 30mph zone are totally different sets of circumstances. You're not going to kill somebody if you put the wrong fuel into your car but there is a very real possibility of killing somebody if you are exceeding a speed limit by 54%.

You appear to think that it is 'not allowed' for a speed limit to change from NSL (national speed limit?) straight to 30mph. Where motorways pass through urban areas I would suggest that this is the norm at the end of most slip roads.

I'm with Paul 1 on this. If the original poster had 9 points on his licence and was not aware enough to realise that he was doing 48 mph in a 30 mph area then he needs to have a spell off the road to bring him back to reality. I wonder what the actual circumstances of the accrued 9 points were.

Incidentally, if you have a 'speed limiter' (presumably cruise control) why not set it at 30 mph in a 30mph area. You're not going to get to your destination significantly sooner by exceeding the speed limit by 3 mph but you would be breaking the law.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
Its not about being a saint, but aspiring to be one is hardly a bad thing. Id rather aspire to be a driver who always attempts to drive within the law and in a considerate manner than someone who would rather get somewhere a bit earlier but with greatly increased risks to both other road users and those on foot.

My close opens out onto a 30mph road, with just 20 metres visability to the right when exiting, which is also opposite a school - none of this stops countless idiots flying past at well over 30 - I spoke to a cop who sits in the school gates quite often and he said 60 isnt unheard of, 50 a frequent figure.
It is common for school signs and multiple limit reminders to have no effect on habitual speeders, so no license is only way to solve it.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
It is common for school signs and multiple limit reminders to have no effect on
habitual speeders so no license is only way to solve it.



The problem is that many limits and speed cameras are so stupid as to draw the system into contempt. Let's say that some drunk students run into the road and get killed by a lorry driving under the limit. The way the law stands today, that would be enough justification for erecting a speed camera. Recently a colleague got caught by a camera doing 35mph in a 30mph limit on a dual carriage way with barriers either side. Some of us know the road, and the attitude was one of contempt for the law rather than "thank goodness this dangerous driver got caught". The attitude displayed here that speeders are automatically kiddy killers is crass (as is the opposite extreme BTW).
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Bill Payer
Putting petrol into diesel engined cars and driving at 48mph in a 30mph zone are
totally different sets of circumstances.

>>
They're exactly the same, if, as the OP stated, he didn't notice that the limit had changed.
You're not going to kill somebody if you put the wrong fuel into your car

>>
You could do, if the engine cut out at an in-opportune moment
but there is a very real possibility of killing somebody if you are exceeding a speed limit >> by 54%.

No there isn't. Driving over the speed limit does not kill people.
Incidentally if you have a 'speed limiter' (presumably cruise control) why not set it at
30 mph in a 30mph area. You're not going to get to your destination significantly
sooner by exceeding the speed limit by 3 mph but you would be breaking the
law.

It is a limiter (all Mercs - I think) have them. I set it at 33MPH because all speedo's overread so I'm not going to incense someone by setting it at 30 and then driving at a real 27MPH.

Edited by Bill Payer on 03/10/2008 at 23:51

9 points and another speeding ticket! - FotheringtonThomas
I set ("speed limiter") at 33MPH because all speedo's overread


Test the thing using s SID (smiley faces speed indicator device). Could be interesting.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Bill Payer
Test the thing using s SID (smiley faces speed indicator device). Could be interesting.

Do you think they're accurate?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - FotheringtonThomas
Yup.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - FotheringtonThomas
'holier than thou' attitude from some posters! These are the probably the same
people who think drivers who put petrol in diesels are thick and who never make
a mistake themselves.


People who do that aren't necessarily "thick" - however, you can't say that their brains are engaged at that moment, can you!

As to never making mistakes... I do not think that the point is logical.

If you're driving in different parts of the country as many high mileage drivers do
frequently then it's very easy to get caught out by changing speed limits.


Why? If one is on an unfamiliar road, then attention to detail (e.g. road layout, signage) is surely heightened? If not, why not?

the 30's (which often appeared around bends with no warning)


Lots of other things can "appear" around bends. It is a good idea to be careful when cornering. Think to yourself - "if there was a 60 ton hard metal army tank stopped in the road around the next corner, would *I* be able to stop before smashing into it?". This sort of thought raises the instinct of self-preservation (which can have side effects beneficial to others, of course.

many limits are set unnaturally low and that causes much frustration amongst other
drivers such that I'm frequently overtaken.


It is not your general adherance to the rules that makes them overtake. It is the fact that they don't care for the rules. Let 'em find another road, or just sit there (two seconds off your bumper (in good condtions!) I hope).
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Why? If one is on an unfamiliar road then attention to detail (e.g. road layout
signage) is surely heightened? If not why not?


I cannot speak for others. I sometimes get the speed limit wrong, especially in cities, where I have to concentrate on avoiding a collision with other drivers who ignore lane markings, and the Highway Code. Plus some signs are obscured by vegetation. And I know areas where a 60 transition to 40 repeaters with no 40 indication. And lastly I am human, and can simply make a mistake, despite trying to stay within the limits (motorway excepted). It is worse in some areas such as Luton than others, where limits/signs are more reasonable.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - FotheringtonThomas
some areas such as Luton


Luton! All bets are off. People seem to be as likely to ignore keep left signs, "no turn" ones, traffic lights, and all others, as they are to understand what they mean.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - ifithelps
Luton! All bets are off.


They must be all mad as hatters.:)
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Luton! All bets are off.


Exactly Though there IS a casino in Luton so I question your statement ...
9 points and another speeding ticket! - CGNorwich
"He does hold the law in contempt as he keeps getting caught".

I would humbly suggest that the repeated breaking of the speeding laws rather than the getting caught is the act best described as holding the law in contempt. I would also suggest that most if not all the members of this forum break the speeding laws on a fairly frequent basis and therefore most are guilty of holding the law in contempt to a degree

I would suggest some posters might be a little hypocritical to say the least.



9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
>>I would also suggest that most if not all the members of this forum break the speeding laws on a fairly frequent basis <<

I dont - used to when I was a stupid teenager but I grew up. I can control the speed of my car and I make damn sure of it too because I MYSELF couldnt live with the potential consequences of my lack of thought for my fellow human beings.
I dont want a school child to fly across my bonnet to teach me that lesson. Simple as.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - billy25
This is the second thread recently whereby a poster has come on asking for help and advice, this is the second time such poster has recieved a good thrashing by some regulars. Come on Guy's, everyone has made a mistake in thier lives, some people learn the lesson the first time, some people need more lessons!
We are not here to dish out punishment, thats the courts job, so if you can offer helpfull advice, post it, if you cant and are just going to "vent your spleen", then make a cup of coffee instead of posting.
Look at the thread viewing figures on the front screen, there are far more folk reading these threads that maybe you realise, to my mind these posts dont make good reading, and as such dont do Hj's site any favours.
Also using totally hypothetical exremes such as "killed a child" - "run over a granny" or such like.to emphasise your point, (although quite possible) is getting boring!
Both these original posters have admitted they were wrong, they werent trying to hide or cover anything up!
Remember, however good a driver you are today, you might unexpectedly and accidentally kill somebody tommorrow! - What goes round - comes round!

Billy


9 points and another speeding ticket! - krs one
Not wanting to preach, but if you are unable to tell what the speed limit is at any given point, should you really be driving?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Stuartli
Sorry, but I'm with Mapmaker on this one.

As for driving in various gears to maintain/stay within a particular speed limit, my VW Bora trundles along quite happily in fifth in a 30mph zone...:-)

I just keep an eye on the speedometer.

Anyone who has nine points already and lands another speeding ticket doesn't, in my view, deserve any sympathy.

Edited by Stuartli on 04/10/2008 at 01:07

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
He does deserve sympathy, because his learning curve has reached a fraught point and his livelihood is threatened. I hope he avoids a ban and learns to dial subtle low-level speed awareness into his automatic pilot setup. It's harder for some than for others. Took me ages, but fortunately things were a lot less tightly corralled in those days.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - BobbyG
But what makes you think that if he escapes a ban, he won't be back in 6 months asking again?

Surely the emotions and fears he is expressing now should have been expressed and dealt with at 9 points?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
Well, if someone is disposed to forget the importance of not being flashed by speed cameras in the hurly-burly of the working day, and their mind hasn't been concentrated by 9 points, perhaps it will be by the threat of 12 and a mandatory ban? One would think so. Doesn't mean the guy isn't suffering a bit of anguish - perhaps all to the good? We will see, if he ever tells us.

In the meantime I don't feel the slightest inclination to preach or be unsympathetic. Really there are forms of puffed-up, ostentatious petty respectability you wouldn't much want in your sitting room.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - L'escargot
9 points indicates a way of life so another 3 is only to be expected, sooner or later.

Edited by L'escargot on 04/10/2008 at 08:41

9 points and another speeding ticket! - hooterml
I think it could be quite easy to pick up 9 points - and that is coming from a 45yr old man who's never had a single point on his license.

Is there anyone here who hasn't broken the limit accidentally 3 times? There's 9 points - if your in the right place for the sheriffs to catch you doing it.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - b308
I'm with Lud on this, though I do think that a 7 day ban is the best option - it shouldn't cause him that much inconvenience, but will hopefully get the message over that he needs to slow down! Incidentally, one option to this constant speeding thing is to get a slower car - if you like large cars, then get one witha small engine that can't go fast!

Incidentally Lud, with reference to an earler post, what on earth is a "Good" drunk driver... physical impossibility, I'd have said!
9 points and another speeding ticket! - P3t3r
Incidentally one option to this constant
speeding thing is to get a slower car - if you like large cars then
get one witha small engine that can't go fast!


I can't see this working, I think all cars will do over 80mph (and most over 100mph) which means you can still get fined on any road.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - b308
>> get one witha small engine that can't go fast!
>>
I can't see this working I think all cars will do over 80mph (and most
over 100mph)


Thats not the point - the lower powered cars tend to be geared differently and are often easier to keep at constant low speeds than their higher powered bretheren - overall top speed in this case is irrelevent.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Alby Back
When I started driving in the mid/late '70s speeding was a way of life. Everyone, or at least most, did it regularly. If you were caught it was seen as your own fault for not spotting the rozzers before they saw you. Didn't alter the fact that I got stopped a few times over the years though.

My worst incident was some 20 years ago when I was pulled in 3 figures on a motorway. It went to court and I was fortunate enough to escape with points and a fine. In many respects I think that was a turning point for me in that I think I realised then how close I had come to messing up my life by incurring a ban.

It was difficult at first to change my way of driving. It felt quite unnatural for a while. I think the OP realises he's between a rock and a hard place and we could perhaps be more useful in trying to help him to learn the techniques for protecting his licence in the future rather than castigating him for events gone by.

Many drivers could have found themselves in a similar situation by the luck of the draw. Encouraging future avoidance of that situation is surely the best advice we can offer ?

"Let he who is without sin......."
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
what on earth is a "Good" drunk
driver... physical impossibility I'd have said!


I should have said: better a drunk good driver than a sober bad one.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
I should have said: better a drunk good driver than a sober bad one.


Frightening.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
Frightening.


There is much to fear in this life. But I don't fear sharing the road with competent drivers who may be over the alcohol limit. I fear the lethal wallies, mainly sober no doubt, who I see driving dangerously whenever I go out.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Lud: "I fear the lethal wallies mainly sober no doubt who I see driving dangerously whenever I go out."

Then we disagree profoundly. You used the term "drunk" as opposed to "over the legal alcohol limit" which implies they are not fit to be behind the wheel of a vehicle, motor or otherwise.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
Ah. Then I have misrepresented myself. I thought what was meant was 'drunk under the definition applied in the road traffic act'. Of course a person drunk enough to have seriously impaired reflexes, physical control and judgement - feel free to choose your own vulgar expression for the condition - should not be driving.

I sometimes find myself following certain sorts of well-heeled London mimser and thinking: he's completely ripped. But I know from long experience that there are people who drive like that when they are sober. Lots of them. They outnumber seriously drunk drivers what? Ten to one? A hundred? A thousand?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - P3t3r
Is there anyone here who hasn't broken the limit accidentally 3 times? There's 9 points


But by 20mph? Cameras and Police will rarely catch you for doing just a few mph over the limit, and many cameras are set at at least 10mph over the limit.

There are also some reasons why I don't get caught by cameras (or police).
1. They are brightly coloured boxes (or brightly coloured vans) at the side of the road, with white lines in the road, and information signs before them. I make sure I look at my speedometer when I see a camera.
2. They are usually in accident black spots. Where the cameras are I would often feel unsafe if my speed went much above the limit.

If you do have trouble with seeing cameras or understanding the reasons for them being on a particular road then it may be worth doing an advanced driving course with an organisation such as the IAM or RoSPA.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - jc2
Not all speed cameras require white lines painted on the road and the requirement for cameras to be brightly coloured was removed earlier in the year.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Bill Payer
But by 20mph?


Very easy if you think the limit is 50 but it's really 30 (as in the OP).

Edited by Bill Payer on 04/10/2008 at 11:14

9 points and another speeding ticket! - nortones2
Someone driving an average of 200 miles a day is quite likely to suffer from tiredness, especially at the end of a long day. The answer is to cut the mileage, stop for a rest before the brain shuts down, and before something more material than a speed camera is encountered!
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GroovyMucker
sq

This thought occurred to me too, and I have a good deal of sympathy for OP if he is forced by his employer to drive such distances. Plainly he hasn't been able to maintain the awareness of the road and conditions sufficiently to enable him to know when he is speeding - and I'm pretty sure I would be the same.

Edited by Pugugly on 04/10/2008 at 13:39

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Armitage Shanks {p}
Don't risk your licence in North Wales then! Speed camera hidden in a parked horse trailer this year!
9 points and another speeding ticket! - ifithelps
They wouldn't catch me no matter how fast the horse was.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - hooterml
>> Is there anyone here who hasn't broken the limit accidentally 3 times? There's 9
points
>>
But by 20mph? Cameras and Police will rarely catch you for doing just a few
mph over the limit and many cameras are set at at least 10mph over the
limit.


In this particular case I think the OP was 18 mph over but we have no idea of the circumstances of his other 3 convictions. In our area you will be get 3 points and a good fine for doing 35mph in a 30 area - for certain.

In a quaint and unusual fashion the local newspaper has a "Sheriffs Court" section and I've seen 33 mph get points and a fine. We have no cameras in our area but do have lots of police hiding in side roads with handhelds.

No I have never had a point on the license. No I don't go out with the intention of speeding. But I'm not so smug to think that at sometime I've never exceeded the limit by 3mph. And here that would get me points - if the police happened to be hiding in the side road, behind a hedge etc at the time.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - PhilW
"the OP was 18 mph over "

Yes he was, but before condemning him too much perhaps we ought to go back to the original post where he states

"I was doing 48 in a 30 zone but as the road is mainly 50 with stretches of 30 this is possible though I cannot honestly remember seeing a sign or a speed camera"

In other words, he thought he was actually within the limit.

In the same way, I had sympathy for my son when he was done for 33mph on a 30 limit dual carriageway in Nottingham - he had his "beeper" (?) set for 30 but must have drifted over and been caught by a specs camera before he re-adjusted. This particular road going out of Nottingham (A610) has limits of 30, 40, 50 and 70 with no apparent reason for the changes.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
So the OP, who should be pretty good at driving given the miles they cover, is unable to spot speed limit signs. Thats more of a worry in itself than the actual speeding.
I have travelled many miles in my short life inc doing it as a profession yet changing speed limits have never been remotely difficult to understand if you are paying attention.
I dont agree with many limits but I make sure I know what they are because I value my license and drive accordingly. If in this case the sign was obscured AND there were no repeater signs then fair enough, but it seems unlikely.

I was driving down a 20 mph stretch today, more than a mile of near straight road and a queue of cars behind me, but I stuck to it anyway because while 30 would be the more sensible limit, some dimwit has ordered it to be changed and my luck would be a cop just round the corner waggling a finger at me.

I may come across as a mimser, but Im really not, I just value my license and as such, stick to the rules. Personally, id like overhead signs for speed limits so you cant miss them ( illuminated at night like the variable limit signs on M25 ), some rethinking on certain limits and with some being raised and harsher penalties for breaking urban limits.
I say kudos to the OP for agreeing it wasnt a good thing, that is far more than most speeders ever do. I honestly dont think people would be anywhere near as opposed to the speeding if it was at 100 mph early on a sunday morning on the M40 for e.g.

Do Specs really do you for just 3 mph over the limit now? That would be a higher indicated speed in the car though wouldnt it?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - PhilW
"Do Specs really do you for just 3 mph over the limit now? That would be a higher indicated speed in the car though wouldnt it? "

Well, thats what it said on son's "summons" or whatever it is called these days (NIP?)
My Berlingo is spot on 30 at indicated 30 according to my satnav, and only indicates 72 at 70. Son's car is a C2 so maybe that is as accurate. And on a dual carriageway perhaps 30 was unexpected- I don't know.
As for not noticing 30 mph signs, there are so many signs these days ...... on a nearby dual carriageway in the distance from the start of the 300 metre (? - you know, those 3 , 2, 1 diagonal striped things) signs to a roundabout there are 19 different signs - all apparently of equal importance. Sometimes we are a bit overloaded with signs so the important ones are hidden by totally irrelevant ones.
I sometimes wonder whether the people caught by speed cameras are those who are unfamiliar with an area or the "dangerous drivers".
I am often overtaken by speedsters going into our local town at 60-70 mph when the signs say 30 mph ..... but they know there aren't any speed cameras there .... but I stick to the posted limit. Oddly, it is a dual carriageway on which 70 mph is "safe" - no houses alongside, pedestrians, cyclists etc (good footpath and cycle track).
Anyway,
like you, I am not a mimser but stick to the rules (I hope - unless I miss a sign !!!!)
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Bilboman
Earlier posts about regularly driving 1000 and 2000(!!) miles a week leave me aghast. I consider myself a "typical" company car driver: I have an area slightly larger than Scotland to cover and I am away from home four days a week, with overnight stays every other week. A lot of my work can be done by Wireless Internet and mobile phone use, which can be done safely and comfortably from home or from a rest area or, at a pinch, a café.
My average speed over the past week from fillup to fillup, according to the trip computer, was around 35 mph - a mileage of 1000 or 2000 would equate to between 28.5 and 57 hours of driving per week, which is frankly insane. Clocking up points on my licence would be the least of my worries with a working schedule like that.
Would company car driving/self employed drivers in the backroom strenuously object to the compulsory fitting of tachographs? Put another way, would any HGV and PSV drivers nowadays like to get rid of their tachographs?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - pda
Certainly not.
As it is I am allowed to start work at 3am and finish at 6PM on 3 days of the week. Can you imagine what I would be expected to do without one?

As an HGV driver I can only drive for 56 hours per week but that has to be compensated for with extra rest the next week, to average 45 hours driving per week over a fortnight.

Well done you!

Pat
9 points and another speeding ticket! - hxj

I use this bit if the A610 on a regular basis, assuming you are talking about the bit from the city centre to M1 J26. I don't recall any illogical speed limits on the road, IIRC it gradually increases as you get further out of town, where are the bits that cause issues?

The SPECS cameras are blindingly obvious, they are the big cameras across the road painted bright yellow. It is also obvious that there are issues, from the way that all the other traffic slows down.

Never heard of anyone being done on this stretch of road for anything under 37.




9 points and another speeding ticket! - PhilW
I'm not massively familiar with the road myself, but it always strikes me as odd that there is a 40mph speed limit on a stretch of dual carriageway which has no junctions /pedestrian crossings/houses adjacent but it is NSL where there is a road junction and pub exit entrance. The aforementioned 40 mph limit becomes NSL for the roundabout at the A610/M1 junction but 40 again immediately afterwards where the road passes between 2 wooded embankments, then 50 on the stretch down towards IKEA. Presumeably, one is allowed to do up to 70 round the roundabout but only 40 either side. This is hardly "gradually increases as you get further out of town".
Anyway, it appears that I am not the only one who thinks that the limits are odd and confusing

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/461176...m

"Experts from the Institute of Advanced Motorists have condemned speed limits on a busy road as "too confusing".
Notts County Council has defended the decision to put four different speed limits within three miles on the A610. "

There are alsso another 98,000 "confused " people

"The Observer - Sunday 26 October 2003

That'll be three points - and £1,500

For motorists on the A610 outside Nottingham, there is a hazard lurking at the side of the carriageway.
In just three years, speed cameras have caught more than 98,000 drivers for speeding on a two-mile stretch, one of the highest success rates in the country."


The speed limit varies from 30mph to 70mph between Nuthall and Giltbrook on the outskirts of Nottingham."

As for "The SPECS cameras are blindingly obvious", yes they are and hence why my son had his "beeper warning" set at 30mph.

On the other hand the ABD says
"A610 Nottingham B Pair of SPECS digital cameras - Into Nottingham, first camera is BEFORE any warning signs, and speed limit is not well posted
A610 Nottingham B Pair of SPECS digital cameras - Heading out of Nottingham, camera is hidden behind trees round left hand bend outside row of shops"

"Never heard of anyone being done on this stretch of road for anything under 37."

Oh well, believe it or believe it not - your choice - and I am not trying to say my son was innocent - he got nicked, paid the fine and got the points.

See
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=46...8


Phil



9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Your son has my sympathy. I know he broke the limit, but he is hardly a speed freak.

Recently at work I heard that the daughter of a colleague was knocked down, and the driver got out of the car, looked at the child sprawled on the road, exclaimed "what a horrible mess", got back in the car and drove off. She was okay, but lost several teeth. Her father has photographed every matching car driving past the house at the same time of day, shown the photos to his daughter, and has identified a car driven by someone who looks like the culprit. But the police refuse to act. And yet a colleague was recently done for a minor speeding offence on a dual carriageway. Two other colleagues have recently been done for exceeding 20mph in a small town area, where as far as I am concerned the 20mph limit is absurd.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - woodster
This must be one of the longest threads on here, a most emotive subject today. Anyone posting on here lost a loved one on the roads?? In all the different media that this subject is discussed, I've yet to see a published letter from the family of a deceased road user. Unsurprising, since it doesn't make good reading. Isn't it the case that we all like to think we can exercise good judgement, even if that includes exceeding the speed limit? Maybe we can - most of the time. But I suggest that with 3500 deaths on the roads a few years ago, the British driver has 'blown it'. Those deaths and all the injuries are incredibly expensive to the nation and something had to be done. There is no perfect system, hence the blanket enforcement, with little leeway. And yes, seems to be some revenue gathering. But even in the case of revenue gathering cameras, the law is the law. If we disagree with the camera, presumably we disagree with the limit on that road? Petitioning the local authority or our MP would be one way forward to canvass local opinion and seek to amend the limit. back to our poor friend with 9 points: Sympathy for him, and I hope he doesn't lose his employment but whilst 9 points and a summons is clearly focusing his mind, that focus would perhaps have been better utilised at the time of acquiring 6 points. At least the UK system is in steps in respect of speeding offences, effectively 3 warnings before the ban. Have to agree with other users here - seek professional representation by a solicitor specialising in road traffic matters but remember there are no guarantees. Alternatively, and perhaps a somewhat unpopular view: Walk in, state that you won't waste the court's time, get your cheque book out and offer to pay the fine on the day - book a holiday with the fee you would have paid the solicitor and ride out the hopefully short ban.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Woodster: If it was only loonies such as the ABD that criticised the current focus on speed cameras, then I might agree with you. But even respected bodies such as the RAC, and an ex-head of the Met Police Traffic Division have expressed disquiet at current trends. I would also argue that your arguments - speed camera = safe - are too simplistic, but that is a long discussion, often aired here, and often heated.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
Of course speed cameras are safe - they are inanimate objects which have an entirely predictable reaction to the world around them. Human reaction to them might be unsafe on occasion, but thats down to the human element.

Cars are not unsafe either. In all these circumstances, it is drivers who make roads unsafe. They simply try to blame it on something else to justify how they drive.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - woodster
Leif: Where in my post does it say: 'speed camera=safe'?? I said that we have been given a blanket response (by Government, incidentally) and alluded to the fact that administering some sort of variable system to take account of traffic conditions/time of day/whatever else, is not practicable. Didn't say I thought it brought about safety, but did say that we certainly did not have safety at 3500 deaths p.a. I note that you provide a simplistic response to several points in my post, perhaps you could share your opinion on all my points, but please extend me the courtesy of reading that which I wrote! No offence intended!
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Leif: Where in my post does it say: 'speed camera=safe'?? I said that we have
been given a blanket response (by Government incidentally) and alluded to the fact that administering
some sort of variable system to take account of traffic conditions/time of day/whatever else is
not practicable. Didn't say I thought it brought about safety but did say that we
certainly did not have safety at 3500 deaths p.a. I note that you provide a
simplistic response to several points in my post perhaps you could share your opinion on
all my points but please extend me the courtesy of reading that which I wrote!
No offence intended!



Firstly, I read your post, and commented on it. I found your post simplistic in that you first used scare tactics - i.e. refer to a relative of someone killed on the road - and then elided into a discussion of driving within speed limits, the assumption being that breaking a speed limit = dangerous, and consequently speed camera = safe. At least that is how it read to me. It might surprise you to know that some of those who express concern at the current use of speed cameras are not 'speedsters' to use the somewhat insulting term chosen by NowWheels. The question is whether or not speed cameras are a) effective and b) desirable. My belief is that the answer to both points is "sometimes".

"I note that you provide a simplistic response to several points in my post,"

I cannot comment unless you indicate which statements you consider simplistic. However, I did not write much in my response, and the points were simply facts. It is a fact that respected bodies have voiced concern at the current emphasis on speed cameras over other measures. And it is a fact that an ex-head of the Met Traffic Division was on R4 expressing some unease at the spread of speed cameras, whilst acknowledging that they can sometimes be beneficial.

I speak as someone who tries to drive within speed limits - motorways excepted - and I have in the past found myself almost getting tickets due to poorly indicated speed limits.

Incidentally, the fact that some police forces have targets to reach, and staff are forced to ticket people for minor offences does not exactly add confidence in our lords and masters.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
In all the different
media that this subject is discussed I've yet to see a published letter from the
family of a deceased road user.


Unhappy reading though it may be, I don't see how that would inform the debate. Unless you think there are some people who are yet to agree that the safety of all road users is important. Maybe there are a few of them, but they're easily identified and ignored aren't they?
Isn't it
the case that we all like to think we can exercise good judgement even if
that includes exceeding the speed limit? Maybe we can - most of the time.


And when our judgement is in error, there are laws against driving dangerously that can be used to punish us. What is somewhat anomolous are the laws that punish us when our judgement was not in error.
something had to be done.


If you're suggesting there's been an amount of "Something Must Be Done" syndrome - Something must be done, this is Something, therefore we must do It - you may well be right. That's not a good thing though.
If we disagree with
the camera presumably we disagree with the limit on that road?


Perhaps. But much more importantly we might disagree with the approach to policing that the camera embodies. We might prefer to be policed by intelligent entities that know more about what we are trying to do than we do, and who can constructively discuss our mistakes and help with the continuing development of our skills at the same time as punishing us.
Petitioning the local authority
or our MP would be one way forward to canvass local opinion and seek to
amend the limit.


Unless you happen to live in an area populated entirely by experienced, expert drivers, the fact that local opinion is allowed to play a part in the decision is a huge part of the problem.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
We might prefer to be policed by intelligent entities that know more about what we
are trying to do than we do, and who can constructively discuss our mistakes and
help with the continuing development of our skills at the same time as punishing us.


I'm sure that most people would much prefer that. But it costs a lot of money.

Replacing one camera with uniformed officers requires four or five officers to give round-the-clock coverage, and that's going to cost about £200,000 a year. Multiply that by the 6,000 speed cameras in operation, and you're looking at well over a billion pounds a year.

I'm sure we can all agree that there are many areas of govt spending we'd like to see trimmed to free up the cash to do that, but the problem is it's much harder to get agreement on any particular cut. And even if we did trim a billion from elsewhere in public sector budget, is this really the best way to use it?

A billion would build about 10,000 new homes each year, or double the budget available to insulate homes (thereby alleviating some fuel poverty and reducing C02 emissions) ... or it would put tens of thousands of extra police officers on the beat to make our streets safer. You can make your own list of priorities for how to spend a billion, but I'd be astonished if there was even a remote chance of getting anything near a political consensus to use the money to provide cosy chats for drivers who are unwilling ease off on the accelerator enough to get their speed below the posted limits.

Cameras are unsubtle system, making no allowance for circumstances. But despite their crudeness and their huge intrusion on privacy, they remain by far the most cost-effective way of policing the endemic problem of speeding. If someone has a better solution, I'm sure there would be plenty of support for it, but I haven't seen any such proposal.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
I'm sure that most people would much prefer that. But it costs a lot of
money.
If someone has a better solution I'm sure there would be
plenty of support for it but I haven't seen any such proposal.


Interesting viewpoint. I'm waiting for the first pro-camera MP or road safety charity to publically acknowledge that cameras are a very bad solution but they don't know of a better one.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
Interesting viewpoint. I'm waiting for the first pro-camera MP or road safety charity to publically
acknowledge that cameras are a very bad solution but they don't know of a better
one.


Please don't put words in my mouth: I didn't say that they are a bad solution, just that they are flawed. Most things in life are flawed, and similarly most public policy is a matter of trade-offs between various possibilities. Cameras are unstuble, allowing for little discretion, but they are a lot cheaper to the public purse than any alternative.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
Please don't put words in my mouth:


I apologise. I said "very bad". You said "their crudeness and their huge intrusion on privacy". It is, of course, entirely a matter of opinion whether those two are at all the same.
Cameras are unstuble allowing for
little discretion but they are a lot cheaper to the public purse than any alternative.


If cost is the reason they are preferred over traffic police officers, and the trade-off is less discretion, it would be nice to hear both the pros and cons of that compromise acknowledged a little more by those who promote it.

Much is touted about the reduction in accidents brought about by cameras. Rarely if ever have I heard a camera evangelist estimate the increase in the number of drivers who have suffered punishment without first having their driving assessed for safety. That sort of one-sided spin is disingenuous. It does nothing to persuade those still in need of persuasion that cameras are the right compromise, and amongst those given to speculating on conspiracy theories may even fuel the perception that cameras are there for a different reason entirely.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
NowWheels: "Replacing one camera with uniformed officers requires four or five officers to give round-the-clock coverage, and that's going to cost about £200,000 a year. Multiply that by the 6,000 speed cameras in operation, and you're looking at well over a billion pounds a year."

That would be a pretty stupid thing to do, and is unrealistic. In practice many speed cameras are ineffective (official figures prove it), and others are of limited use. Official research has shown that the "regression to the mean" argument does indeed significantly distort the official figures of suppose accident reduction due to cameras.

In practice the correct comparison is the current situation and what we had before. Speed cameras mean that police staff are tied up with looking after them, or with manning 'tallyvans' and radar guns. And we have seen a reduction in the number of traffic cops. So that is the real cost. Plus we all know that the real maniacs slow for cameras, then speed up afterwards. And speed cameras are always in revenue generating areas, and never in residential areas, which are the most dangerous, simply because they do not generate enough revenue.

If I saw sensible 30mph limits in residential and town centres (not the usually stupid 20mph ones) and cops with radar guns set to 35mph+, then I might be sympathetic.

Oh and the fact that speed is a causal factor in a small proportion of road accidents ...
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
If I saw sensible 30mph limits in residential and town centres (not the usually stupid
20mph ones) and cops with radar guns set to 35mph+ then I might be sympathetic.


So you would like to be able to drive a 35mph in what are currently 20mph zones? That certainly clarifies things.

Not for the first time, many of the objections to cameras seem to have less to do with the method of enforcement than with not wanting to drive more slowly. I'm sure you know the well-publicised data on the effects of hitting someone at 20, 30, 35 and 40, so I won't repeat it, but it's a pity that some drivers apparently place such a low priority on the safety of non-vehicular road-users.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
What a pity the laws against slander are so lax in this country. For the implication that people who don't want to dawdle around on the roads getting in the way and obstructing traffic flow are callous or indifferent to the safety of 'non-vehicular road users' is surely slander.

Similarly, what is the point of harping on about the effects of hitting a pedestrian at one speed or another? Most drivers on seeing a pedestrian staggering into their path will brake sharply or take evasive action, so the speed they were driving at when they first saw the drunken fool will no longer apply. What is it that leads people constantly to fantasize about cars colliding violently with pedestrians?

Suppose a car collides with a pedestrian at the sort of urban speed mimsers think is safe (say 10mph), and continues at that speed because the driver has fallen asleep. Either it will drive over and crush the pedestrian or sweep him or her aside. The same things are generally true at 20 and 30 mph.

I am afraid those very down on speed are trying to deal with their own destructive, sadistic side, their fear (or secret wish) that they may hurt or kill others during a momentary lapse of their iron self-control, by disciplining others. Not a thing that ever works really. Just gets up people's noses.

Edited by Lud on 07/10/2008 at 16:23

9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
>>Similarly, what is the point of harping on about the effects of hitting a pedestrian at one speed or another?<<

Because one speed does more damage than another.

>>so the speed they were driving at when they first saw the drunken fool will no longer apply.<<

So if it doesnt apply, you would be happy for an 80 mph limit past schools at 8am then? If of course speed doesnt really apply when avoiding/hitting pedestrians.

>>For the implication that people who don't want to dawdle around on the roads getting in the way and obstructing traffic flow are callous or indifferent to the safety of 'non-vehicular road users' is surely slander. <<

The only reason traffic flow is obstructed by people obeying the law is because those who dont catch them up via their illegal action. If you wanna break the law, you cant expect the word to revolve around you.

>>Suppose a car collides with a pedestrian at the sort of urban speed mimsers think is safe (say 10mph), and continues at that speed because the driver has fallen asleep <<

Nobody has said 10 mph, the pro speed limit people are pushing for obey a 30 limit as you well know and clearly it threatens your sefl esteem to an extent that you exaggerate. How many cases of people falling asleep at 10 mph have you statistics for? One suspects none.

Just another willful speeder making a poor attempt at justifying why the law shouldnt apply to them. I do hope we get to see such people on TV trying to put their arguements across to a cop when they get pulled over.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
Just another willful speeder making a poor attempt at justifying why the law shouldnt apply
to them.


I don't think that silly laws shouldn't apply to me. I think that they shouldn't apply to anybody.
I do hope we get to see such people on TV trying to
put their arguements across to a cop when they get pulled over.


I doubt there's much argument to be had. For a start, I expect most police officers would agree that silly laws should not apply to anybody, although like the rest of us they will all have their own opinions about which, if any, of the laws in this country are actually silly. But I doubt you'd find many who'd be prepared to stand up on duty, in uniform, on TV and debate those opinions with a member of the public.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - stunorthants26
>>I don't think that silly laws shouldn't apply to me. I think that they shouldn't apply to anybody.<<

Nor do I, but that doesnt mean I will break them. I think that a burglar is taking their chances if they enter your home and get shot, tough luck, shouldnt have been there in first place. But the law says you should show them around and make them a cuppa and hope they dont fall over anything lest they sue. Of course the law is silly, but get it changed - wilfully breaking it is a sign of criminality not someone with a passionate belief that there needs to be change.

Besides, urban speed limits cant be generalised as silly, some are wrong and some are right. There are those here who would break the limit whatever it was because they work to the principle that the law is an optional extra in life when they are behind the wheel ( and perhaps in other areas in life ).
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
Besides urban speed limits cant be generalised as silly some are wrong and some are
right.


I hope I haven't suggested any such generalisation.
There are those here who would break the limit whatever it was because they
work to the principle that the law is an optional extra in life when they
are behind the wheel ( and perhaps in other areas in life ).


There are some of those in the wider world but I don't think we have many of them here. Rest assured, if any assurance be needed, that I am not one of them. I am simply one of those who feel that there are rather more important things to look at than the speedometer when it comes to not killing people with my car.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
Yes I was exaggerating stu. I don't think the laws shouldn't apply to me. I don't object to people obeying speed limits.

I just hate everyone crawling inefficiently and inelegantly around below them.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
So you would like to be able to drive a 35mph in what are currently
20mph zones? That certainly clarifies things.


That is not what I said. Some 20mph zones make sense. Many don't. And many 30mph and 40mph zones can turn into 20mph zones due to conditions etc.

And why does it clarify things?
Not for the first time many of the objections to cameras seem to have less
to do with the method of enforcement than with not wanting to drive more slowly.
I'm sure you know the well-publicised data on the effects of hitting someone at 20
30 35 and 40 so I won't repeat it but it's a pity that some
drivers apparently place such a low priority on the safety of non-vehicular road-users.



That is too crass for words. I see you are getting into silly emotive nonsense. I would rather a driver did not hit a person at any speed. I think you have to put forward more grown up arguments than a simple if you hit someone at 40mph you will kill them". If I hit someone on the head with a hammer I will kill them. So?

Some objections to the current policy:

1) Those who drive at excess speed are often skilled at slowing for speed cameras.
2) Speed cameras are often placed in high revenue earning locations.
3) Speed cameras can be placed in a location after fatalities that resulted from an accident where the vehicle was travelling at LESS than the speed limit and was not at all speed related.
4) Speed cameras are hardly if ever placed in residential roads which are more dangerous.
5) Speed cameras never prevent people hurtling round blind bends at excess speed.
6) Most 20mph limits are not enforced, rendering them pointless anyway.
7) I used to live in a 20mph area, and very dangerous driving was the norm. I also saw police cars hurtling down the road at what might have been excessiv speeds (even allowing for their 'need' for speed). In fact I nearly drove into the side of a police car which had 'crashed' a red light.
8) Speed cameras are totally ineffective for people with false plates and/or an unregistered car. These are the people who are MOST likely to have serious accidents.
9) Lastly, speed is NOT a causative factor in the majority of accidents.

IMO the current obsession with speed cameras is dangerous because it focusses on one issue at the expense of others. And it potentially alienates the public because of the revenue generation aspect.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
That is not what I said. Some 20mph zones make sense. Many don't. And many
30mph and 40mph zones can turn into 20mph zones due to conditions etc.


I'm afraid it is what you said. You want 20mph zones made into 30s, and the limit not enforced below at least 35mph.
And why does it clarify things?


Because if your main concern is that the limits are too low, then any concerns about the method of enforcement ring rather hollow.
That is too crass for words. I see you are getting into silly emotive nonsense.
I would rather a driver did not hit a person at any speed. I think
you have to put forward more grown up arguments than a simple if you hit
someone at 40mph you will kill them". If I hit someone on the head with
a hammer I will kill them. So?


For someone who accuses others of being crass and emotive, that's a really lousy analogy, Leif. There's no acceptable reason for anyone to be waving a hammer near your head, but in an urban area, cars and pedestrians legitimately share roadspace and cross each others paths. The faster the cars are going, the less time each party has to get out of each others way , and the more severe the injuries when an impact occurs.

That's why it's so important to slow vehicles in urban areas.
Some objections to the current policy:
1) Those who drive at excess speed are often skilled at slowing for speed cameras.


Indeed. That's why average-speed cameras are much more effective.
2) Speed cameras are often placed in high revenue earning locations.


This is a catch-22 argument. By definition, any camera which catches a speedster will raise revenue from the fine. So the more effective a camera is at catching speedsters, the more its critics label it as a revenue trap.
3) Speed cameras can be placed in a location after fatalities that resulted from an
accident where the vehicle was travelling at LESS than the speed limit and was not
at all speed related.


If accidents are occurring there, controlling speed will limit their severity.
4) Speed cameras are hardly if ever placed in residential roads which are more dangerous.


True, but that's largely a function of cost. On residential roads, speed bumps are much more cost-effective, but many backroomers complain bitterly about them too ... because the bumps mean that they have to slow down!!!!! (shock, horror, the injustice of it etc)
5) Speed cameras never prevent people hurtling round blind bends at excess speed.


I know some that are placed on bends, but cameras are not designed to tackle every form of bad driving. Don't knock a solution just because it's not 100% effective.
6) Most 20mph limits are not enforced rendering them pointless anyway.


They'd be much better if enforced (though I can hear the howls from the backroom speedsters if they were), but that doesn't make them useless. Many drivers do slow for 20mph zones, and it's better to have some vehicles slowed than none.
7) I used to live in a 20mph area and very dangerous driving was the norm.


Sadly, that doesn't surprise me. Clearly needs more enforcement (whether by policing or by technology) an/or traffic calming measures.
8) Speed cameras are totally ineffective for people with false plates and/or an unregistered car.
These are the people who are MOST likely to have serious accidents.


Indeed, that's one of their limitations. There are other measures in place to clamp down on the false plates/unreg brigade (with some success), which will help to reduce that problem.
9) Lastly speed is NOT a causative factor in the majority of accidents.


It's a contributory factor in a significant proportion of accidents, which makes it a problem.
IMO the current obsession with speed cameras is dangerous because it focusses on one issue
at the expense of others.


That's not a reason for getting rid of cameras, it's a reason for redeploying the traffic cops who have been taken off the roads. The cameras are paid for by the speedsters, so their arrival didn't cause the departure of the police; that was a separate (and very stupid) policy decision, partly as a consequence of management-by-targets.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Mapmaker
Leif>> That is not what I said. Some 20mph zones make sense. Many don't. And many
30mph and 40mph zones can turn into 20mph zones due to conditions etc.


NW>>I'm afraid it is what you said. You want 20mph zones made into 30s, and the limit
>>not enforced below at least 35mph.

It is *not* what Leif said. There is a "usually" in there. That said, I am struggling to think of one 20 mph zone that makes sense. Virtually the entirety of Southwark - save for TFL-maintained roads is heading to be 20mph. Bonkers.

Personally, I think 20 mph zones should *all* be abolished. Equally I think that 30mph zones should be enforced more strictly - 33mph is fine. Enforce it at 35, and then you are making the limit 35 - so why do that?


9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
Personally I think 20 mph zones should *all* be abolished.


Are there any? Isn't the urban limit 30? Aren't all those 20 signs just damn cheek by local council jobsworths sucking up to faffing voters?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
Are there any? Isn't the urban limit 30? Aren't all those 20 signs just damn
cheek by local council jobsworths sucking up to faffing voters?


No, they are legally kosher. The Sec of state has delegated to local authorities the power to set 20mph limits in certain circumstances.

From para 73 of DfT Circular 01/2006 (see tinyurl.com/4nvfpf ):
Since July 1999, the Road Traffic Regulation Act (Amendment) Order 1999 (SI 1999 No. 1608) has given traffic authorities the powers to introduce both 20 mph speed limits and 20 mph zones without obtaining the consent of the Secretary of State. Details of the relevant amendments to legislation can be found in Circular Roads 05/99 (DETR, 1999).

Edited by NowWheels on 08/10/2008 at 02:12

9 points and another speeding ticket! - Lud
Thanks NW, but without the specific endorsement of the secretary of state, the decisions of these power-crazed clerks are a matter of total indifference to a respectable citizen.

They may impress the very young and culturally challenged though.





9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Mapmaker: "It is *not* what Leif said. "

Thankyou. It is indeed not what I said. In some part of Luton there are single file roads with parked cars either side. There is a 20mph limit, and only a fool would do more than 20mph. Similarly, in a city centre, near shops, with lots of pedestrians wandering about, a 20mph limit is more than appropriate. But I see roads with wide pavements and good visibility with 20mph limits. Now my guess is that the people who drive at 40mph and greater are the ones that have the accidents. No doubt they will continue to have accidents, and the powers that be will decide that a 20mph limit is too fast.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
I'm afraid it is what you said.


No it isn't. See my other post.

The faster the cars are going the less time each party has to get
out of each others way and the more severe the injuries when an impact occurs.
That's why it's so important to slow vehicles in urban areas.



The reason that is a crass argument is because it gets you nowhere. The logical extreme is to have cars stationary to reduce accidents to zero.

That's why average-speed cameras are much more effective.


In some respects I prefer these. But the speed limit must be CLEARLY marked and reasonable and all too often that is not the case leading one to question the motives.

I can think of many roads near Luton where the limit is absurdly low for 100m and then when the road becomes dangerous, the limit goes to 60mph, where I would not even do 40mph. That sort of thing creates contempt.

This is a catch-22 argument. By definition any camera which catches a speedster will raise
revenue from the fine. So the more effective a camera is at catching speedsters the
more its critics label it as a revenue trap.



Not it isn't. Speed cameras on motorways are big revenue earners, and yet motorways are the safest roads. Clearly these cameras ARE primarily a revenue generator.

>> 3) Speed cameras can be placed in a location after fatalities that resulted from
an
>> accident where the vehicle was travelling at LESS than the speed limit and was
not
>> at all speed related.
If accidents are occurring there controlling speed will limit their severity.



Re-read what I wrote. If the person who kills a pedestrian is travelling at or below the limit, how will the camera reduce the severity?
>> 4) Speed cameras are hardly if ever placed in residential roads which are more
dangerous.
True but that's largely a function of cost.



Which is why they have a reputation as revenue earners. When they put up railings, they do so for safety reasons. But cameras raise revenue. In practice there is the suspicion that the camera is part of an empire, paid for by us.

>> 5) Speed cameras never prevent people hurtling round blind bends at excess speed.
I know some that are placed on bends but cameras are not designed to tackle
every form of bad driving.



They are not allowed to be placed on corners.

>> 6) Most 20mph limits are not enforced rendering them pointless anyway.
They'd be much better if enforced (though I can hear the howls from the backroom
speedsters if they were) but that doesn't make them useless. Many drivers do slow for
20mph zones and it's better to have some vehicles slowed than none.



Sadly many are inapproriate which generates contempt.

>> 7) I used to live in a 20mph area and very dangerous driving was
the norm.
Sadly that doesn't surprise me. Clearly needs more enforcement (whether by policing or by technology)
an/or traffic calming measures.


But there is no enforcement. I am referring to current policy.

>> 8) Speed cameras are totally ineffective for people with false plates and/or an unregistered car.


Indeed that's one of their limitations.


And by using cameras rather than police you remove the ability to stop these people. Many crooks are stopped by traffic police on routine pulls.

>> 9) Lastly speed is NOT a causative factor in the majority of accidents.
It's a contributory factor in a significant proportion of accidents which makes it a problem.


No, it isn't. It's quite a small proportion. There are far more important causes.

That's not a reason for getting rid of cameras it's a reason for redeploying the
traffic cops who have been taken off the roads. The cameras are paid for by
the speedsters so their arrival didn't cause the departure of the police; that was a
separate (and very stupid) policy decision partly as a consequence of management-by-targets.



The cameras take police away from other duties.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - GJD
I'm sure you know the well-publicised data on the effects of hitting someone at 20
30 35 and 40


The data is well-publicised. Unfortuantely the way it is presented does the argument no favours. There is usually an implicit assumption that if the traffic is flowing at x mph, the pedestrian is hit at x mph. I suspect that in many collisions with pedestrians, the driver brakes before the collision. The piece of information that is always conspicuous by its absence is the correlation between general traffic speed and collision speed. Is it positive (faster traffic generally means faster collisions)? Negative (faster traffic generally means slower collisions)? Or near zero (collision speed is largely independent of traffic speed)?

Within a bounded speed range for the general traffic flow, any of these could be true. I can imagine an argument for each that sounds reasonable on the face of it. But without the research (I've never seen any research to answer this question but it might be out there) we don't know. Without knowing that the correlation is positive, the data you refer to is not particularly compelling.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - NowWheels
The data is well-publicised. Unfortuantely the way it is presented does the argument no favours.
There is usually an implicit assumption that if the traffic is flowing at x mph
the pedestrian is hit at x mph.


In some cases, the driver can brake before impact, but in others there is no warning.

I have only witnessed one actual collision between a person and a car, when a man absent-mindedly walked out in front of a parked van, and the car didn't see him coming. Splat.

The driver was understandably devastated, because he had no chance to touch his brakes before the impact, but if he hadn't been going so much faster than the 30mph limit the pedestrian might not have been so mangled and man's car might not have been so badly bent (Ford Orion, the A-pillar bent in by about 18inches).

That's the way cities work; the only friend of mine who hit a pedestrian did so in similar circumstances. People have to cross roads, and don't always choose the best places, so accidents of this sort happen ... and that's why actual speeds are very relevant to injury rates.

I'm sure that there are many such accidents where the driver does have time to brake, but in cases where there is no warning of impact, the speeding driver seriously magnifies the injury to the pedestrian.

There's no rocket science in figuring this out, and it's depressing to see drivers so keen to dismiss the data as "not particularly compelling." If the same risks applied to car drivers, I think it would appear a lot more compelling.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - L'escargot
In the same way I had sympathy for my son when he was done for
33mph on a 30 limit dual carriageway in Nottingham - he had his "beeper" (?)
set for 30 ..........


I'm not familiar with the beepers to which you refer, but I assume that on that occasion it beeped when your son reached 30 but he wasn't paying attention. There's no point in having the beeper if it's going to get ignored.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - PhilW
"I assume that on that occasion it beeped when your son reached 30 but he wasn't paying attention. There's no point in having the beeper if it's going to get ignored. "

Oh dear, let's jump to conclusions. My son is suddenly someone who is careful enough to set "the speed warning beeper" but then "wasn't paying attention" and stupid enough to set his beeper and then ignore it.

By coincidence he called in "at home" last night so I asked him about the speeding ticket and he said that at the time as a newcomer to Nottingham he had realised there was a limit, wasn't sure immediately whether it was 30 or 40, set his beeper for 30, heard his beeper go, slowed, but was "done". He said - "must have strayed over to 33 before slowing, must have been at the camera, got done - won't happen again"
He has been driving for 13 years - one speeding ticket, he drives about 20k per year. Daughter is same - commutes 50 miles each way every day, one parking ticket in 12 years. I've been driving 43 years, one ticket (in 1970ish doing 50mph downhill at 3am on a dual carriageway in a truck limited to 40), wife been driving 40 years never a ticket for anything.
So, before you start implying that we drive "without paying attention" and "ignore" warning bleepers - just have a think - maybe you could PM me to find out whether this "ticket" was one of many or just a one-off.

Regards
Phil

Oops, forgot the on the spot fine I got in Austria once - 50 schillings I think (about £2) in 1974 - again going downhill in a minibus limited to 62kph - I must be an habitual law-breaker - done for going over snails pace twice in 43 years.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - L'escargot
....... maybe you could PM me to find out whether
this "ticket" was one of many or just a one-off.


I'm not that interested. Chill out, PhilW. There's no sense in raising your blood pressure over it.

9 points and another speeding ticket! - woodster
Leif: you make very valid points with which it is difficult to argue but I responded to one of your posts further up the page and you've rather discourteously (does that describe your driving??!!) ignored me....
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
.. and you've rather discourteously (does that describe your driving??!!)


Are you trying to be offensive?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - PhilW
Sorry mate,
I thought you were getting a bit het up over it!! Perhaps I wasn't paying attention - maybe I should just ignore it!!

Several smileys!!!

Phil
9 points and another speeding ticket! - PhilW
That was in response to L'Escasgot not you Lief/woodster

Phil
9 points and another speeding ticket! - woodster
Leif, in asking whether I'm trying to be offensive you beg the response: 'What if I am?' The answer, incidentally is no. I'm trying to get you to realise that you have wrongly quoted me in one of your posts and therefore I conclude that you havn't read it properly, or you choose to discredit me by misquoting me. I made a number of points that you appear to have ignored, or perhaps you agree with me?
I think these forums can become rather like the Editors column if responses are not discussed. The term 'forum' suggests an airing of views and this is likely to lead to discussion. Common courtesy suggests we take account of others views and discuss. I credit you with very valid opinion, and for this reason I seek your responses to my points, as you clearly have clarity of thought and expression. I wouldn't bother trying to engage you if I thought your opinion worthless. Looking forward to your further opinion.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Leif
Hello Woodster. Firstly just because someone does not reply within an hour, or even a day, does not mean they will not reply. I have a day job, and that limits the time I can spend on outside activities. I was meaning to respond. Secondly, I did read your post, and replied on the basis of what I understood you to have said. If that was wrong, okay, put the record straight, and no harm is done. I did not quote you, but simply paraphrased what I thought your views were. I certainly have no desire to misrepresent you, so if you think that is the case, apologies.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - Pugugly
O.K all - had a couple of complaints now about the way this thread has de-generated. Is there anything left to be said now or can we let it rest ??

It wandered off its topic before the war sometime.
9 points and another speeding ticket! - oldlag
If you habitually break the speed limilts then its good you get caught and if you get taken off the road its even better.
OK you lose your job ! I think the fact is YOU lost it.
grow up act responsiblly and dont act like a child caught in the sweet jar when youve been caught speeding because clearly speeding is one big game to you, to others it a life cut short.
anyway arent you old enough to know better .........
dont you have afamily who also use the roads and come across items like you going far too fast?
9 points and another speeding ticket! - FP

Another free-loader.

 

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