Brundle was being Steve Ryder. If only they could get rid of James Allen as well.
Brundle made an interesting observation on the creeping nannyism in F1 - now there's constant discussion about the rules (which as far as I can tell resemble those of Mornington Crescent) and whether so and so will get a penalty for failing to notice he was driving on the hatched area while trying to avoid a crash at 190mph.
Big rule changes next year. Shame they didn't go for the Boadicea hub caps in the end. Indicators will probably be introduced soon.
Edited by Manatee on 12/10/2008 at 20:08
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Brundle made an interesting observation on the creeping nannyism in F1
I noticed that too. It was the racer's heart in Brundle going out to Raikkonen in a typically hairy manoeuvre, real heart-in-mouth stuff for about half a second there. Hoping no one was going to quote the highway code to penalise a Ferrari...
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Hamilton needs to calm down. Getting real fed up with these penalties, they seem to be exceptionally frequent this season.
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Brundle was being Steve Ryder. If only they could get rid of James Allen as well.
We ought to count ourselves lucky that they didn't bring back Tony Sardine.
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"If only they could get rid of James Allen as well."
Like him or not he's only got two races left: next year it's Brundle and Coulthard. Interesting to see if that combination works; it seems to me that over the years it's been one excitable one and one calmer expert - Walker/Hunt Walker/Brundle and Allen/Brundle. Coulthard always seems quite chilled out when interviewed, so we'll have two calm experts.
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Once again Ferrari International Assistance comes to the aid of the red team.
Bourdais must learn that whenever a Ferrarista comes near, you must immediately drive off the track and not interfere with their imperious progress....
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I'm with you on this Screwloose - wonder what Cheddar thinks. Bourdais came out in front (and was not being lapped) and had nowhere to go apart from off into a wall or something. And Massa drives into him. Why should he have let Massa passed - and couldn't Massa have gone the longer way round?
But when Massa was out of the points two weeks ago they gave him a penalty. Okay he got one earlier today - when he drove into Hamilton.
I wonder if they meant for Massa to get the 25s penalty? You could tell this was coming when it was to be investigated after the race. Surely could have had a drive through penalty with the laps remaining - but probably needed to be sure they'd get away with it.
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I honestly thought Bourdais was fine and it was Massa who would get the penalty - giving a penalty when someone has no where to go seems grossly unfair. My view on penalties is when things are done on purpose - Massa aimed at Hamilton clearly and not from on the track either, fair enough.
Im not anti-Ferrai but still they seem to get alot of help - the first corner incident looked like every other first corner of the season - did whoever tapped Coultard get a penalty? Course not.
I cant see how Hamilton can win the championship - id bet all my savings on more odd penalities in the next two races, its become too regular and while Hamilton is bullish as a driver, he is not Scumacher esque, just seems to be on thin ice permanantly.
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Ignore my earlier post!
I should have read the article in more detail - it's Jonathan Legard/Brundle with Coulthard as a pundit.
Edited by ho chi minh on 12/10/2008 at 20:44
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Like him or not he's only got two races left: next year it's Brundle and Coulthard.
Thanks. Found a reasonably up to date story here -
uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29092008/23/2009-bbc-f1-tea...l
I'll miss Blundell despite the solecisms, and it's a shame to lose Kravitz. At least the rumour about the Top Gear presenter(s) being involved seems to have faded - that could have finished me off.
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If the Bourdais/Massa incident happened like that on the road, would that mean Bourdais' insurance would pay out because someone drove into him?
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wonder what Cheddar thinks>>
I also like James Allen though wont miss the ads !!!!
Seems that Steve Rider has left the ITV F1 sinking ship, Brundle was carp at his role though is a good commentator / pundit.
If something like motorsport is going to be on commercial TV I dont see why they cant have on screen / in screen ads.
Hamilton hashed up the start and the redmist came down, he should have tucked in behind Raikonnen and consolidated 2nd place though he chose to push his team mate Kova out wide and brake much too late, in doing so locking the wheels and thus not being able to turn in to the corner, only regaining control on the left hand side of the track by which time Raik had already been pushed on to the grass and Massa had had to follow him, it seems that Kova also braked too late and went straight on when others were trying to turn in, Raik said after the race that he was hit by both McLarens which hobbled his car stopping him challenge Kubica and Alonso, a point supported by the fact that his fastest lap was half a second down on Massa's.
After the first corner incident it was difficult to see how Hamilton ended behind the Ferraris though his move on Massa was pointless as he was already due to pit to replace his flat spotted tyres. The incident that caused Hamilton to spin would have been just a racing incident in the past though perhaps under today's nannyism (as Brundle put it) Massa deserved a penalty.
Re Bourdais, as per above, putting it down to just a racing incident would have been fair though if Massa was penalised for hitting Hamilton then ... ... after all Bourdais did push Massa wide and tip him into a spin.
You have to hand it to Massa for pushing hard all afternoon after the early set backs, taking fastest lap and salvaging a couple of points. In contrast I cant understand how Hamilton ended up 33 secs behind Massa when he was only 7.5 secs behind as they came up behind Button, it seems like he gave up, had he tried he may have got a point.
Makes it more exciting for the last two races !!
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The commentary mentioned that according to Mclaren, Hamilton has sustained some damage which accounted for his slower times. I fully expected him to come charging up the field and that would explain it.
Edited by nick on 13/10/2008 at 10:21
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The commentary mentioned that according to Mclaren Hamilton has sustained some damage which accounted for his slower times. >>
Though he matched Massa's times until they came up behind Button, they both passed Button though Massa just drove away after that.
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I have looked at the start again, after the first corner incident the top eight order was approx Kubica, Alonso, Hamilton, Kovalienen, Glock, Piquet, Massa and Raikonnen.
How then did Hamilton end up behind Massa, the coverage does not seem to show it.
The producers focus on Coulthard's crash plus a replay of the start and then we see the Hamilton / Massa incident where Hamilton is trying to pass Massa, I can only think that Hamilton was slowed by his flat spotted tyres and that Kovalienen had passed him, also Massa and Raikonnen must have passed Glock and Piquet and Massa had also passed Hamilton and this was an attempt by Hamilton at a re pass, Raikonnen is right behind which perhaps supports this.
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LH was a bit ambitious in his attempt to 'win' the race at the first corner - a bit daft IMO - but I'm struggling to understand his penalty. I expect to see, in the future, all similar 'offences' penalised similarly, otherwise it will look specious & arbitrary in this case.
But, surprise, surprise - Ferrari come out again with even the 'penalties' somehow, giving them an advantage. Bourdais decision? I'm genuinely beginning to doubt my understanding of what the rules are here (or even plain commonsense) - it seems the normal logic was turned on its head because the stewards decided Massa had some 'priority' because he was racing down the straight - eh? Didn't Massa have a responsibility to judge his braking point & corner approach? It's completely mind boggling.
That post-race decision gave Massa an invaluable point.
The Massa penalty - he obvously gained an advantage over Hamilton, quite a big advantage in fact (12 places?) - why hasn't he been made to give all that up? Perhaps even with a post-race time penalty. Doesn't make sense or seem fair.
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I'm somewhat bemused by the Massa penalty. One of the replays showed Massa squarely on the track pointed in the right direction to go round the bend. Instead he seemes to veer to the left, accross the kerb and grass, straight into Hamilton.
I would have though that if Hamilton had a drive-through for his indiscretion then Massa should have had a 10 second stop-go.
I previously didn't believe in the Ferrari favouritism conspiracy theory but the Bourdais penalty added to the above has me beginning to wonder.
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Canada: Hamilton runs in to Raikonnen; 10 place grid penalty.
Monaco: Raikonnen runs in to Sutil; no penalty.
Fuji: Massa overtakes Webber off the track 2 laps from the finish; no penalty.
Alonso: One bitter man.
www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71379
"Renault driver Fernando Alonso says he will do all he can to help Ferrari's Felipe Massa win this year's championship.
"Yes, no doubt, if I can help, I will help Massa," Alonso was quoted as saying by AS newspaper following his victory in the Japanese Grand Prix.
"They have lost a lot of points," added Alonso about Massa and title rival Lewis Hamilton. "After 16 races the leader has 84 points. In 2006 I had 82 in nine races. ""
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Canada: Hamilton runs in to Raikonnen; 10 place grid penalty. Monaco: Raikonnen runs in to Sutil; no penalty. Fuji: Massa overtakes Webber off the track 2 laps from the finish; no penalty.
Not comparable !
Hamilton missed a red light at the pit exit in Canada.
Raikonnen ran into Sutil braking from 180mph, a straight forward accident.
Webber pushed Massa wide, Hamilton pushed Raikonnen wide at the start, perhaps Webber should have been penalised?
The penalties have got a bit OTT though Hamilton was lucky to get away with what he did following the Canada pit lane indident, drivers have missed races for less.
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The penalties have got a bit OTT though Hamilton was lucky to get away with what he did following the Canada pit lane indident drivers have missed races for less.
Please don't lets start this all over again - Cheddar, you are either a Ferrari fan or a wind up merchant when it comes to this subject as you try to bait everyone that expresses the conspiricy theory, we can discuss it 'til we're blue in the face but its clear that you don't think there is a conspiricy (as do many others) but that many of us do, lets just agree to differ, eh! Its not worth the hassle!!!!!
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Happy to agree to differ with you b308 though what is the point of an online forum such as this if various members can't/don't/won't express their various views and opinions or even worse concur on everthing? Rhetorical question BTW.
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... the conspiricy theory ..
I don't think it is a deliberate conspiracy. It is more likely an institutionalised way of thinking that has got ingrained in the stewards' psyche.
[At Fuji, Hamilton had to wait for all cars to pass before rejoining the race after Massa has spun him. At Singapore, Massa rejoined in the path of Sutil forcing Sutil to crash in to the barrier. No actiont aken against Massa for that breach of "rules".]
I will watch the current season through to Brazil, but I have no plans to actively follow this "sport" in 2009.
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Seems that Steve Rider has left the ITV F1 sinking ship
We were told he'd gone off to commentate on some airbag kicking, which explained his absence at the weekend.
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Ok so if not Steve Rider departing the ITV F1 sinking ship then perhaps ITV taking their eye off the F1 ball (scuse the pun!)
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Why was Martin Brundle wearing a suit and why wasn't he wearing a tie?
A suit but no tie is "cool" for informal occasions. I was pleased to see the knowledgeable Brundell brothers teamed up and the absence of Steve "jack of all trades" Rider.
Edited by L'escargot on 13/10/2008 at 11:27
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Did they put Brundle and Blundell together to save any possible mispronounciation problems from their Japanese hosts?
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I have just seen this on another forum. Makes you wonder, what a small world. tinyurl.com/4yk8dn
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>>Raikonnen ran into Sutil braking from 180mph, a straight forward accident.<<
If I ran into the back of someone at 180 mph on the road, the police would ask me
( forgetting the speed issue ) didnt I see the car infront?
If this is the pinnacle of motorsport, how come we have a Finn who clearly should have gone to Specsavers? He made a mistake that cost another team points so he should have been penalised for that aspect of it. Stupidity shouldnt be rewarded.
Had Sutil been driving a Ferrari and it was Hamilton who hit him from behind, I cant see that there wouldnt have been a penalty.
I honestly think Hamilton's attitude to other drivers is indicative of how put upon he feels - clearly he isnt liked but it seems to be mainly by direct rivals or people he has outshined - and as such, he doesnt pull any punches anymore - you can see the edgy element that wasnt there in the beginning. Whether it will help or hinder only time will tell.
He is the new Scumacher though in terms of pitlane reputation, maybe he is resigned to that.
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Re Alonso helping Massa, I think he means Ferrari, there is no doubt that he wants to drive for Ferrari at some time in the future though Raik's new contract and Massa's form has put paid to that until 2010 at the earliest it seems. His comments also seem to put paid to rumours that he was to bury his differences with McLaren and Hamilton and return there next year.
Look like he will stay at Renault for 2009 at least.
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... rumours that he was to bury his differences with McLaren and Hamilton and return there next year.
No chance of that while Ron is around. Ron has allegedly said that he would like to say a few things about Alonso's time at McLaren, but will save them for some time in the distant future.
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Webber pushed Massa wide, Hamilton pushed Raikonnen wide at the start, perhaps Webber should have been penalised
Webber did not weave and took the same line that Kubica had been taking. Massa chose to overtake him on the inside. Raikonnen avoided doing so two or three times when faced with similar blocking moves by Kubica.
How convenient to forget that at Spa, Raikonnen pushed Hamilton off the track, which then led to Hamilton getting a 25 second penalty.
Incidentally, on Ed Gorman's blog and on other forums, comments abound from people who ahve replayed the Fuji first corner incident in slow motion. It shows that it was not Hamilton that pushed Raikonnen off the track, but that it was Heiki!
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>>was not Hamilton that pushed Raikonnen off the track, but that it was Heiki!>>
Have a look yourself here:
www.itv-f1.com/VideoHighlights.aspx
At 23/24 secs Hamilton swings to his right and Kova has to take avoiding action, a second later Hamilton is alongside Raik as they pass the end of the pitlane line and is already locked up, accordingly he can't turn in so neither can Raik who is on his left and is accordingly pushed wide, at 27 secs Hamilton has it sorted and it does look like it is Kova who touches Raik's Ferrari, it also looks like one of the Toyotas pushes Massa wide. Perhaps the stewards concluded that it was Hamilton's actions that caused the rumpus. Raik however reckons that he was hit by both McLarens, it may be that Hamilton just touched Raik's wheels at 25 secs causing Raik to swerve left.
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Surprisingly; I'm with cheddar on this one; that rash move into the first corner was "driving without consideration for other road users" and deserved a "cooling off" drive-through - particularly as he has form for previous leary moves.
Massa just drove straight at him; I see he's been taking lessons in nobbling from his expert mentor.... That deserved a stop-and-go, to send a strong message that such tactics retired with Michael.
As for Bourdais; Massa was the one trying to overtake him...! There can be no doubt that the run of incredible decisions from different "one-day-only amateur stewards" must lead any reasonable person to the conclusion that they are being "guided" by Max's hand-picked "stewards advisor" Alan Donnelly into ever-more-ridiculous pro-Ferrari judgements.
The time for permanent stewards - drawn exclusively from the huge pool of eminent ex-drivers; not the great-and-good of obscure national Motoring Associations, is long overdue. The current farce is bringing the sport into disrepute.
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The time for permanent stewards - drawn exclusively from the huge pool of eminent ex-drivers; not the great-and-good of obscure national Motoring Associations is long overdue. The current farce is bringing the sport into disrepute.
Very sensible... but I doubt we'll see it happen... far too sensible for those in charge...
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of those three decisions made, were the penalties really needed, do they stifle the sport, are they unnecessary.
1, Hamilton's....Can't see why it was given. All starts can be mayhem, there was nothing really there that hasn't happened numerous times before. If a driver on the o/s of a late braking car doesn't want a collision they go wide if possible (was on this occasion) or wait for the throttle and be patient. Hamilton got the corner, albeit somewhat out of control, but that is what you expect at the start of an F1 race.
2, Massa's... I do think it was worthy of a penalty, as these two are champioinship contenders and there was an opportunity for him not to do it if he so chose. At the level these chaps drive at, he knew very well what would happen and did nothing to prevent it.
3, Bourdais.. partricularly hard done by IMO. Coming out of the pits, racing aginst Massa, what else was he expected to do. Massa could if he had wanted to have been more patient, but chose not to. Fair enough he's a racer and gave it a go, but just because it didn't work for him, Bourdais shouldn't have been penalised. Would the penalty have been given the other way around? Not likely.
The Stewards are seriously in danger of ruining races, just at a time we're heading towards more overtaking. I'm not signed up to Grand Conspiracy theories..but..recently Ferrari do seem to have some suspiciously good fortune and leeway... and i suspect a form of F1 Political Correctness has crept in.
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" Bourdais.. partricularly hard done by IMO. Coming out of the pits, racing aginst Massa, what else was he expected to do. "
Massa in the faster car need only have waited until the finish/start straight and got past Bourdais. He was hot headed like LH no doubt and should have had a penalty the same.
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8< SNIP - sorry can't allow that here
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 14/10/2008 at 13:15
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After the first corner incident it was difficult to see how Hamilton ended behind the Ferraris
Cheddar: here is a video that shows exactly what happened [particularly the aerial shots in the second half of the video]. Watch it before it gets taken down by the FIA for copyright reasons.
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip4p-FcrBLc
Comments on the clip as posted by Ed Gorman on his "Formula One Blog":
"This is on-board footage of the start at Fuji from Felipe's car and if you haven't seen it, you should. It provides a very clear picture of what happened at the start and, as Nicco mentions in his comment, it shows that Lewis made another mistake at the apex of Turn 3 which was never shown on the main TV footage because the director was covering DC's shunt and some shots of Kazuki.
I just hope that the lawyers at FOM will continue to allow us to see this because it is so important in helping us understand why the stewards reached the conclusion they did. It is precisely the sort of footage they should release themselves with their findings to help us all understand how they reach their conclusions.
Assuming you can see it, here are a few pointers.
1. Lewis does not make his move on Kimi until very late on the straight. He whips out almost at the point that his front wheels are on the white line at the end of the pit-exit lane.
2. Lewis is parallel to Kimi when he hits the brakes and Heikki is right behind Lewis, so Kimi is well and truly trapped.
3. When the cars reach the turn-in point, Lewis is still stopping Kimi from turning. No doubt about that.
4. Lewis goes straight on but then Heikki takes his place alongside Kimi, pushing the Iceman wide in a sequence which is the direct consequence of Lewis's initial passing attempt.
5. After Heikki has moved ahead of Kimi, Felipe then comes alongside his team-mate as Kimi is trying to re-gain the track and the two Ferraris almost (or perhaps do) touch before Kimi gets away.
6. Lewis is tracking Fernando and Robert along the straight towards Turn 3. He is in third place. As they approach the apex of Turn 3, Lewis is about three car-lengths behind Fernando. He does not make a move on Fernando but when he gets to the curbs at the apex his car gets pitched off, across the track and runs very wide over the run-off area. This is why Lewis is in seventh place, and behind Felipe, by the time they approach Turn 10 next time round. The shot of Lewis at Turn 3 is from the 'copter and it is hard to see what happened. It looks like he might have clouted the curb or maybe his flat-spotted tyres were the cause...
7. There is no doubt that Lewis was responsible for a sequence of events which primarily disadvantaged Kimi. Whether he should have been penalised for it, or whether this was just standard racing, is something we shall debate for weeks I guess. The bottom line with Lewis, however, is that the move on Kimi was not required championship-wise and he should never have done it (but that is easy to say sitting in a hotel room in Tokyo).
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Thanks jbif,
This one show Hamiton's turn 3 off.
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pSH-fyG9Nfs
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Aside from the issue at hand, that clip of Massa as the lights go out shows just how incredibly short the reaction time of these drivers is. Once underway the speed of reaction and control is something to behold as well.
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>>>> 7. There is no doubt that Lewis was responsible for a sequence of events whichprimarily disadvantaged Kimi. Whether he should have been penalised for it or whether this was just standard racing >>
The aerial shot in the link you post clearly shows how Hamilton causes the field to go straight on rather than turn in though it also shows that Kova is at fault and that where as the Ferraris are forced off the track both McLarens go off of their own accord. I wonder if Kova judged his braking point on Hamilton hence was caught out too.
Perhaps if they had come out of the first corner in roughly the order they entered it then a penalty would not have been given though it is clear to see how Raik went from 1st to around 8th through no fault of his own and was hit by Kova into the bargain. Also Kubica from 5th or 6th to 1st.
Conclusion, not 100% sure that a penalty was deserved though if it was perhaps Kova should have been penalised too.
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if you get to a corner first or grab the racing line first, you choose what line you want or how fast you go through the corner..other people have to drive around you or wait and be patient
can't see why anyone should be penalised for that...that's what racers do all over the world in all sorts of formulae
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if you get to a corner first or grab the racing line first you choose what line you want or how fast you go through the corner..other people have to drive around you or wait and be patient
Yes, see article in the Telegraph today by Mark Blundell:
tinyurl.com/3snp6g
"... In the 20 years I've been involved in F1 as a driver and spectator I don't think I've seen so many penalties in one season. It's political correctness gone mad. An important point is being missed: these guys are racing tooth and nail. Things happen when racing at 200mph. The drivers are gladiators in cars. It's what they get paid for, what they enjoy.
I understand the concern about safety but this is getting ridiculous. We might as well dig two grooves around each circuit, put two cars side by side like a Scalextric set and let someone control the action from the pits. The authorities are losing the plot. ... "
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do you think Blundell stole my line yesterday about Political Correctness? does he read the BR?....:-)
"... and i suspect a form of F1 Political Correctness has crept in."
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do you think Blundell stole my line yesterday about Political Correctness? does he read the BR?....:-)
Or are you Mark Blundell, moonlighting as Westpig when back at home from F1 events?
Edited by jbif on 14/10/2008 at 16:29
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Or are you Mark Blundell moonlighting as Westpig when back at home from F1 events?
I wish.....that's the only real regret that i'll have in my life..that i never did any motorsport..:-(
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that's the only real regret that i'll have in my life..that i never did any motorsport..:-(
Living proof that Westpig isn't Mark Blundell, who would have said it was the 'only real regret what I'll have in my life'.
No disrespect to Blundell though. If everyone was literate people like me would be even more redundant and obsolete than we are already.
Regrets... I've had a few... but then again... far too many to list. Never having done any motor sport comes about half way down.
:o}
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Westpig
Surely not too late? Although a McLaren drive may have escaped you; I don't recall being of "a certain age" and of rotund proportion hampering Gerry Marshall that much?
How about raising some sponsorship from your current employer? Providing a logo-ed car and some cash support [if it didn't all go to Iceland] shouldn't be beyond them.
You could always call it "exploring the potential of the vehicle" - and, this time, in a safe environment.....
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Gerry Marshall...what a fine fellow he was...knew him, (at the utter outside edge of the scale), as he was part of a set in the 70's that my parents mixed with when car racing.
I can remember him punting Big Bertha around at an indecent haste. What a driver. Liked by everyone. my mother was most shocked when I told her of his demise recently, was it last year?
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It rather looks as if Hamilton is a "choker" when the pressure is really on!
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Ooh, yeah, stands to reason malteser, he's just been supported so far by sentimental old Ron Dennis and the rest of the McLaren team and Alonso and all the other drivers on the grid making allowances for him, can't drive for toffee nuts really...
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