How will you know where the station is? And will there be anybody there anyway?
Anyway, any ne'er-do-well sufficiently motivated to do this will have knocked up a "warrant card" on a home printer and popped on a hat from the fancy dress shop, so now what?
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I have heard this advice before but never had an occasion to test it. As Cliff Pope asks, how would you signal your intentions to the 'police' car?.
As I often drive at night with the convertible roof down (weather permitting of course) I would be very loath to stop on a dark country road for anybody. My plan has always been to carry on to a lit area at least should the situation arise.
I've never seen one a genuine warrant card, led a sheltered life! I am sure those who wanted could knock up a card good enough to serve their purpose.
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I've never seen one a genuine warrant card led a sheltered life! I am sure those who wanted could knock up a card good enough to serve their purpose.
I have glimpsed several, but I've never really seen one. This is because in my experience officers merely flash the thing for about half a second and then hide it again. For that kind of display anything would do - a used tissue say, or a lottery ticket.
If anyone really shows you a warrant card, he or she is probably an impostor. Tchah!
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you can narrow things down a bit if you were worried:
most unmarked police cars that would be involved in dealing with the general public have blue lamps incorporated in the front grills or lights i.e. not just a 'kojak' add on type light
plain clothes officers still need to wear protective stab/ballistic vests and these will often be obvious to spot under a jacket etc.
officers are only empowered to stop vehicles when in uniform, although the definition of uniform has become a bit muddied, so some argue the protective vest with a force logo on it and a police baseball cap can suffice
a warrant card should have the officers id number on it and of course a photo. It is easy to fake ID cards on the 'net and who knows what a police warrant card looks like..so ask the officer for the general force phone number, i.e. switchboard number and you then ring the force control room to check or better still find the number yourself from directory enquiries. If you're really worried about it, consider 999.
most officers would have a force radio on them, ask them to use it to get the control room to ring you (whilst you're sat in your car, doors locked and window open an inch). I can't imagine a bogus cop is going to have his mate at the end of a cheap walky-talky to falsify that, it would have to be a nearby land line and cheap radios don't have much range.
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>most officers would have a force radio on them, ask them to use it to get the control room >to ring you (whilst you're sat in your car, doors locked and window open an inch). I can't >imagine a bogus cop is going to have his mate at the end of a cheap walky-talky to falsify >that, it would have to be a nearby land line and cheap radios don't have much range.
An easily obtainable 2m portable ham radio looks and sounds very much like a police radio and has sufficient range.
My question is
How do you indicate to a following police car that you have understood the request to stop, and intend to stop somewhere safer?
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Maybe you stop, open the window an inch, tell him that and drive off again.
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officers are only empowered to stop vehicles when in uniform, although the definition of uniform has become a bit muddied, so some argue the protective vest with a force logo on it and a police baseball cap can suffice >>
I've always thought that the point of the police baseball cap was that it was worn by an officer NOT in uniform to demonstrate that he was, nonetheless, a policeman.
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i'd be inclined to agree Optimist...but...one piece of legislation can have a different interpretation to another ...and often nothing is definitive until there is a 'stated case' i.e. court judgement handed down from a Crown Court (or higher)
so, if a plain clothes officer can make his/her job easier by using an interpretation that no one has challenged, then presumably they will do so. I do know that under the Road Traffic Act, the legal interpretation of 'uniform' is nothing like as strict as it used to be i.e. in the good old days a hat was included, whereas nowadays it's something akin to 'what the average person would agree looks like a police officer' (my interpretation).
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This is intriguing because in the thread on the car being seized in the absence of an insurance cert, I pointed out that the SOCA etc Act of 2006 makes specific reference to the initial stop being made by an officer in uniform.
I'd vaguely assumed that this was because SOCA itself, the Revenue and Customs Prosecution Office and sundry drugs etc squads are probably not uniformed and if. therefore, they want to seize a car from a heavyweight criminal, they have to take a uniformed officer.
Uniform is not a term of art, as m'learned friends say, so I'd agree that it's what most of us would recognise as what a police officer wears. . Not a baseball cap.
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Plainclothes police officers quite often resemble their quarry far more closely than their colleagues. You can't say a young bloke in jeans and a sleeveless tee shirt with his hair dyed bright orange resembles anything the man on the Clapham omnibus would recognise as a policeman.
And there is a small minority of mad nerds, a type I would imagine is well known to the police, that tends to wear dark blue serge trousers, white shirt, mobile in a little holster and big black shoes and goes round trying to impress shopkeepers with references to 'security situation outside the tube station' or something equally vague and silly.
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You've made me remember walking along a street in a slightly dodgy part of saarf London and noticing with some concern three obvious hooligans get out of a car they'd just parked on double yellow lines outside a bank.
Then, you've guessed it, they put on their police baseball caps.
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they put on their police baseball caps.
... before drawing their sawn-off shotguns and robbing the bank?
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tinyurl.com/6fjnq5
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I had an interesting case last year. PCSO had stopped a car (empowered to do so) a PNC ceheck on the driver and car revealed no insurance and licence offences on the driver (owner in passenger seat). Called up a proper cop to deal with this - the Officer that turned up was a plain clothes type who donned a Hi Viz full length jacket to deal with the licence and insurance offences, which he did issuing the occupants with HO/RTs to produce. Occupants found guilty of offences despite pleas around the uniform issue - the Officer brought and wore the coat in Court. Excellent reasoning from the Officer on not seizing the car was that the passenger was insured (according to PNC) and that it would have been improper to seize it in those circumstances.
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Interesting. Where's the statute that empowers the PCSO to stop?
You say occupants were found guilty. What was the owner guilty of?
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Every Police force in the country empowers its' PCSO's differently!
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Permitting and/or aiding and abetting the use of the car by a driver with no licence and while there was no valid insurance for that driver, I should think.
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You're probably right, AS.
You're probably right too, j2c, but there must be some national statute mustn't there?
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Its one of the core powers they have. Without looking I think its the Police Reform Act.
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I had a conversation the other day with a colleague around the 'Fail to Stop for Police' issue. My argument was that traditionally for a constable in uniform to stop a vehicle they must stand in the road and display what is known as the Number 1 stop signal i.e flat of the hand in the air towards the driver in an authoritative manner. A driver who failed to comply would therefore be guilty of an offence.
The conversation then progressed onto a mobile stop where the driver infront was flashed and on identifying the 'Old Bill' sped off.
In the second instance at no time had an official Stop been requested it is just taken as read that a flash of the headlights, and blue lights with maybe a cursory 'WHOOOOOO' ( or even a WHAAAAA ) :-) means Pull Over.
Early Traffic cars (sorry Roads Policing ) had a sign affixed to the rear of the car with POLICE and a flashing STOP. This required the Police vehicle to overtake and then display the requirement - so I suppose you could say that was a request to STOP. Even the Police passenger leaning out and waving at the driver.
Anyway offenders have been reported/charged with 'Failing to Stop' presumably on their admission that they new what was expected and they failed to comply.
Upshot was that there had not been a challenge in court and therefore things stand as they now do.
Uuuuuum, baseball cap and bodyarmour, jeans and T shirt - uniform?? Personally if I required a uniform as per the spirit of the legislation I would be looking for 'A Uniform' that you would expect to see a Bobby on the Beat in or something very similar. In other words what every other Uniformed Officer was wearing.
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And back to the original topic! If you decided to carry on normally in the direction of your nearest Nick ( could be a long journey !) the Police Officer may be starting to think in terms of a 'Failing to Stop'. Providing you drive sensibly there should not be a problem. Very soon there will be a few of their mates at hand to make you feel more comfortable. Mind you with four flat tyres it could be a long night. Just thinking laterally here.
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Section 38 Police Reform Act 2002. The Schedule to that Act give them the core powers for all Forces and local Chiefs can bolt on additional ones.
www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2002/ukpga_20020030_en_20...1
For more information.
Edited by Pugugly on 05/09/2008 at 21:39
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two thing really with this one the story was that of a truck driver being stopped to be robbed, you really have to ask yourself are you worthy of being stopped in this way by a bogus police officer.
secondly you can always check out the validaty of the police car behind you by calling the force headquaters (using handsfree of course just incase they are genuine :-) ) having them radio the car and then verifying to you they are genuine all without stopping (this also verifies without doubt your reason for not stopping immeadiatly as it will be logged)
Edited by welshlad on 05/09/2008 at 21:33
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As an aside.
Seen outside local courts, on double yellows, Vauxhall Corsa with a printed sign inside windscreen:
THIS IS AN UNMARKED POLICE CAR
Pehaps I should try it with my Kia Pride.
Edited by bathtub tom on 05/09/2008 at 21:37
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Some years ago I was overtaken by an unmarked police car late at night making a funny sort of burping ringing noise and cutting in front of me so I pulled out and carried on - when it did it the second time I noticed the uniforms as they cut me into the curb again - they were very nice about it, asked why I didn't stop I explained I didn't know what was going on - they looked arround with a torch - wished me goodnight and I went on my way.
The other side of the coin (copper?) - I ran a self drive operation - and it turned out a young man rented a white Ford escort from us from time to time, and he got his kicks by pretending to be a policeman giving out tickets he had stolen when he was a trainee - he had been kicked out for not being suitable - someone got his number and it came back to us - he got caught and went to jail if I remember correctly.
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>> calling the force headquaters (using handsfree of course just incase they are genuine :-) ) >>
Where do I get that number from? Bearing in mind that I could well be passing through several different police force areas.
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ummmmmm the operator perhaps!!!
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Scary bit of legislation referred to by Pugugly.
I had a look at the schedules and at S38. Am I right in thinking that there has to be a judgement call as to the suitability of the individual to carry out the duty of a uniformed officer?
If that's the case, how do I know what power any individual support officer has at any given time in any given circumstance?
Further: if there are all these civilians going round with all sorts of police powers, why don't they just become policemen?
And if the answer is that they're not suited, then how are they suited to have police powers?
Edited by Optimist on 06/09/2008 at 00:19
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The simple answer is that they are far cheaper ! a Provincial PCSOs peak at just over 20k - a top line PC with all his/her allowances intact (Rent Allowance - still paid to high end Officers, Competency payments and Special Priority Payments) can earn around 34k+. This is a bonkers way to do business, the PCSOs are currently funded by the Home Office until April 2009, then, it appears now that mainstream budgets may have to pay - so basically a fully fledged PC is worth two PCSOs, ultimately it will be a choice - when did you last see a PCSO patrolling on their own ? I think they'll disappear.
I have to say the quality of PCSOs is improving in Court - the one I had in Court (see above) was unflappable and fully up to date with his powers and his documentation was flawless.
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Pug, in London they are on 25K. Many of them join as PCSOs as a way of jumping in later as police officers.These are the ones that show potential unlike many who join for the money and the Kudos. Walk round many side streets of London's west end and you'll see many PCSOs hiding out the way, because they are not up to the job of policing.
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Few months ago, young lad in a BMW 3 series weaving and undertaking in two lane roadway. Eventually reduced to crawling one lane. I was two cars behind and could see he was holding a phone to his ear. Hundred yards or so we passed two PCSOs. I wound the window down and asked if they saw that driver on the phone. They said they could but did not have the powers to stop him. (Met. Police area).
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They haven't since it became an endorsable offence.
Edited by Pugugly on 06/09/2008 at 00:37
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Yeah, but I thought a little verbal advice to him in his shell might have done the trick. A reminder to him of the law.
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Fair comment - probably in the "too hard to do box"
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Sometimes 'having a word in their shell like' is difficult when there are no further sanctions that can be taken if the former does not work. Therefore the easiest option is to avoid the initial confrontation.
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Another thought on "uniform".
If a uniformed constable turns up for duty but is wearing an evening shirt with ruffles down the front and a pair of brown suede shoes, what will happen? Will he be told he's not in uniform and that he has to change?
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What do you think ??? :-)
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What do you think ??? :-)
He wil be told to change the colour of his eyeshadow to regulation serge blue
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There was (may still be) an Discipline offence of "improper dress" but considering the numbers of scruffy Herberts I see in my daily work I suggest it may not be be an oft reported one.
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Cant say I've heard of that one but there are a whole host of 'catch you alls'. Mind you I can scrub up well! (Check your mail PU).
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A fuel tanker will not stop for an unmarked Police car. A system is in place for the driver to display willingness to follow to the nearest Police Station.
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Likewise other high value loads and there are Standard Procedures in place for interactions with the Police.
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Just checked on the PNLD site, which advises the same as the OP link. Aknowledge 'police' car and drive on at reasonable speed to a police station, petrol station etc, or in more remote areas, a house (an apology/explanation to the occupiers may be necessary here if you roll up their drive in the middle of the night)
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(an apology/explanation to the occupiers may be necessary here if you roll up their drive in the middle of the night)
huhuhuhu !
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This had me curious enough to call and ask for advice on this as it has also been in the local press of late with the targets being foreign truckers & drivers using the ports in Hull & Grimsby.
I have today spoken with the controllers in Humberside police and this was the response,
A simple but very clear 'thumbs up' and a reduction of your speed will suffice to show you are willing to yield and comply with the request to stop. But you do have a ?certain degree? of how far you can drive before it becomes a potential fail to stop issue ? seen as either having passed one police, a populated area or a petrol station.
I asked about motorways and remote or secluded areas and the response was the same. So long as you clearly acknowledge the presence of the ?police vehicle? and proceed a sensible distance (service station etc) & stop then that is acceptable.
If you see a marked police car - flashing your lights and sounding your horn means you need assistance and (if heard & seen) they will respond.
I was also advised that winding your window down ½? and asking for the ID card produced to inspect yourself & asking for the control room telephone number is not an issue in Humberside. If you don't have a mobile on you, so I was told, the officer will even hand you his forces one for you to dial the number on to verify his status.
Again I was told that a genuine unmarked police car will stay (should) far enough back from you to see the number plate on the vehicle and the sun visors will be flipped down and showing POLICE and STOP on them.
They advised very strongly NOT to go to a private home just in case no one was present.
Most common make of (traffic) un marked car in Humberside that will be asking you to stop are: BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi (Evo 9) and Volvo's.
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