Whenever this topic comes up, hardly anyone tries to account in carbon units instead of monetary ones. I don't know whether a ton of petroleum converts to diesel with more or less waste than to petrol, but (assuming they are about equal) in the present climate the diesel would seem the more responsible choice if there is no significant cost advantage. Of course, if the petrol is more fun to drive ....
But if one person can clock up 6000 miles in a month, what are the rest of us normal folk worrying about?
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>>But if one person can clock up 6000 miles in a month, what are the rest of us normal folk worrying about?
I think it's the difference between avoidable CO2 and unavoidable CO2. Humph cannot avoid driving, and needs a large car to carry his samples.
The rest of us can and do make unnecessary journeys.
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Whenever this topic comes up hardly anyone tries to account in carbon units instead of monetary ones. I don't know whether a ton of petroleum converts to diesel with more or less waste than to petrol but (assuming they are about equal) in the present climate the diesel would seem the more responsible choice if there is no significant cost advantage.
Good point, and perhaps the government could incentivise this with duty cuts on diesel. If of course "green" tax policies have anything to do with the environment.
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I believe diesel is only suitable on these two cases in UK
[1] Doing mega miles - at least 15-20k/yr or more
[2] Where torque is more important than power eg. 4x4, hauling loads etc.
In all other cases, petrol cars will be just fine.
In countries where diesel costs same or less than petrol, buying diesel car for lower mileage makes sense.
PS: I have no experience of company car tax issue. So, don't know whether that makes any difference.
Edited by movilogo on 29/08/2008 at 12:13
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If only it were as clear cut as that, M! I do less than the 15k but over a 5 year ownership my diesel comes out better than the equiv petrol... as I've said on another forum, it isn't clear cut, it varies from model to model, and then also what the Gov are doing with their taxes and the oil cos with their prices....
For instance on your shout you would never buy a diesel for low mileage, but one of the Far East manufacturers is offering a diesel for the same as a petrol.. would you turn that down??
Edited by b308 on 29/08/2008 at 12:22
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I read a while ago that 20% more cure oil is required to produce a litre of diesel than petrol, and that's why the differential has become larger as the price of oil rises (duty, refining, transport etc. costs being the same)
I would say there is a good case for raising duty on diesel, as it requires more oil and has a higher calorific value
MVP
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I would say there is a good case for raising duty on diesel as it requires more oil and has a higher calorific value MVP
If the administration wishes to continue hammering nails into its coffin there's a good case.
Goods delivery not expensive enough in your area yet MVP ?
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You also make a fair point b308. If you are going to buy a new car and look to sell it on while it still has an appreciable value, then there is still a good case for diesel on almost any mileage due to the more solid residual value.
If however, like me you look to take a second hand car which has already significantly depreciated and run it to near to its end of life, the cost saving on the purchase price goes a long way towards offsetting the running cost difference. I am actually beginning to wonder if it may even be cheaper. We shall see.
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but one of the Far East manufacturers is offering a diesel for the same as a petrol.. would you turn that down??
Kee Cee'd? But that comes with 7-yr warranty!!! That's a limited time exception though, every other diesel version costs more than petrol.
From this forum, I learnt to be skeptical about common rail diesels out of warranty.
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And at the other end of the market, the price for XUD-powered cars is rising, as they'll run on waste veg oil with no need to make it into bio-diesel.
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From this forum I learnt to be skeptical about common rail diesels out of warranty.
I am new - can you briefly explain why out of warranty common rails are something to be wary of?
I assume they are expensive to fix but, again I know little about diesels, I have read that diesels are supposedly very reliable engines?
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I am new - can you briefly explain why out of warranty common rails are something to be wary of? I assume they are expensive to fix but again I know little about diesels I have read that diesels are supposedly very reliable engines?
Maybe not all of them but if you look on forums here and on Parker's you will find no end of people complaining about reliability issues on Renault, Nissan, Mazda and Ford CR diesels.
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Thanks Jase.
I have read of problems with the X-trail diesel over on the Whatcar readers' reviews but had thought that reliability was one of the main reasons why people buy diesel engines. I had heard that they are very expensive to fix though when they go wrong.
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I have switched from a 45 mpg diesel to a 35 mpg petrol (with twice the power)
Thats a fair point DP. Cant argue with the maths but I have to say it wouldnt work like that for me or for all people.
You are starting the comparison from 35 mpg for the petrol and 45 mpg for the diesel due to your mode of usage -if it were me, my journeys are mostly urban,hilly - I have historically got 23/24 mpg out of a 2.0 litre turbo car in those conditions. I'd expect the diesel equivalent to give 36/37 mpg under those same conditions.
Okay, only a 12/13mpg advantage vs your 10mpg difference with my usage - no big deal you may say.
Thing is, I'm using more fuel for the same miles in both petrol and diesel because the overall consumptions have increased.
As the maths works in my case, the lower your mpg the more in monetary terms the gap widens between the fuels. (diesel starts to save more)
I think people need to look at "how" they use the car as petrols on a run are good -you can get some brilliant returns with a lean burn type petrol engine on the motorway and diesels are great in town.
If you predominatley drive in town then diesel scores for the above reasons.
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Just to add to illustrate my point on "type of vehicle usage is important" some rough fag packet calculations :-
18000 miles pa
Diesel 45mpg Fuel = 2232 gbp
Petrol 35mpg Fuel = 2632 gbp
Diesel only 400 pa better.
My urban hilly use
18000 miles pa
Diesel 36mpg Fuel = 2790 gbp
Petrol 24mpg Fuel = 3840 gbp
Diesel now becomes 1050 pa better, - not to be sniffed at.
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I think that several people have hit the nail on the head, that is "It varies from person to person!" There is no way we can make sweeping statements about the use of either fuel/annual mileage/ved/insurance, etc, etc as we are all different!
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Diesel engines are intrinsically more economical than equivalent petrol engine and that is unlikly to change.
Diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol at the moment but that won't necessarily always be the case.
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I've just been informed that my Corsa D 1.3cdti (119g/km) 1st annual service (oil change?) will be £192!!! My previous Fabia 1.2 petrol was £99 for 1st service.
Gutted, makes the £35 VED seem irrelevant.
My son now has the Fabia (@56K), he averages around 55mpg and I change the oil (3L full synth) and filter for less than £15 in less than 10 mins. It is the paragon of reliability and is remarkably relaxed and quiet.
The Corsa cost over £3500 more, has no end of problems and struggles to return just over 50mpg (@8k) It is noisy, stressful (stalls a lot), rides badly and even my kids have started to hate it.
IMO Servicing costs and depreciation are the things to watch. e.g. Cambelts are expensive to change.
MAF?? DPF?? DMF?? Fuel filter every 2nd service?? Forget it - no thanks.
Think total cost of ownership.....If only I followed my own advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well said Brum
There seems to be a majority of the population who reckon if they trade their 4WD in for £200 scrap, and spend £12k on a nice new super-mini, they will save £10 a week in fuel and £6 a week in road tax, so it must be a good move. Duhh
The biggest cost in motoring will always be depreciation, and the cost of selling/buying.
i.e. if you want to save money, the best thing you can probably do, is nothing.
MVP
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If you predominatley drive in town then diesel scores for the above reasons.
I know little about diesels but recently read that they were uneconomical in city start/stop driving as they do not have a chance to warm up to their most efficient operating temperature?
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My experience is that diesel maintains a better fuel economy in short journeys. I know that my current typical usage of 6 mile journeys would not get me 550 miles/tank with a petrol V70.
Petrols have got much better on nice long runs.
I'll say nothing about fap/dpf diesels though.
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Thanks for those proper fuel figures Humph, so many people take the dash display as gospel.
I do agree about the much nicer drive of the petrol engine, and that 2.2 of yours is very torquey, i understand what some say about the mid range torque of their diesels, but you have to be constantly mashing up and down the box to stay there.
Having said that a proper auto with a large 6 pot TD takes some beating all round, plant foot and forget.
Unless something changes drastically my old MB will be replaced by another petrol car, and it will be LPG'd.
We bought the pick up last year, only available in diesel form except as a grey import, i would have bought the petrol by choice and had it LPG'd.
By the way, first service was £165 (should have been £30ish dearer but i deliver their cars and they look after me), that cost for the corsa quoted above was ludicrous.
As others have said, it isn't just the fuel and depreciation maths anymore, you also have to consider the possibility of numerous expensive fixes, DMF/DPF or the dreaded injectors for example, that could rear their ugly heads after warranty period, and the costs we are hearing of could easily outweigh any savings the diesel has made.
I have a nagging feeling in me water that the govt (loosely speaking) of the particular day may just shift the goal posts and change their collective mind regarding VED being based on co2 figures only, road pricing anyone?
I wonder this because the vast majority of new cars we are carrying now are the supermini's, and we'd deliver even more of 'em if the factory could make them any quicker, and we in the BR are not as daft as we look, we know the govt has to get loads of lolly in to throw about, and with the supermini's taking over, they won't be getting enough.
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As well as variations in depreciation, maintenance costs need to be considered.
Diesels seem to need their exhausts replaced much less frequently than petrol cars, which would make a few hundres pounds saving over the life of the car.
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And similarly, tyre life. I struggle to get more than 17000 miles from the fronts of my Tdi Octavia, wheras all the petrol cars I've owned can easily hit 25K. Friends and neighbours agree, front tyre life on a diesel is well down on equivalent petrols. In some cases, worn out by 10000miles (saab 1.9tdi)!
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Thanks for all the responses. I am sure you are all pleased to know that there is a definitive answer to all this.
It is of course ......42
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You must have collected a fair few petrol station tumblers then !
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Clinking some ice into one at this very minute. TGIF !
;-))
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Actually, come to think of it. I am a mere amateur at this high mileage game. Some of the "pro" drivers would probably sneer at my pitiful efforts.
Having said that I was chatting to a friend yesterday while he was mid journey. He has a similar wee business to mine and has to make crazy journeys sometimes too. Trouble is, we need a lot of stuff with us and public transport or small economical vehicles just won't do. Also, the nature of the businees is that we have to cram a years work into two slugs of three months. Just the way it is and always has been.
He had to drive from Bath to Edinburgh and back again yesterday punctuated by a very important meeting and then up to London for 9.00 pm for an industry do. This morning he had to be in Tavistock.
We are both considering getting proper jobs !
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I may need a driver....:-)
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Why ? .....What have you done ?........????
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In the Roomster?? If so that gives some of the posters on this thread something to think about....
No, it must have been Mrs P's GTI - so you presumably live in fear of both the missus and the police.
If I ever get to do fewer miles a year, I think I'll go for something with that 2.0 FSI engine - unlike top-end screamers such as the Honda Civic it has lots of torque rioght across the rev range.
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Its a no cough no job at the moment.
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Earlier this year I borrowed a Golf GT TDI for a week and it was quite a while before I was able to feel entirely comfortable about the post arriving.
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>>If you predominatley drive in town then diesel scores for the above reasons.
But, doesn't the particulate filter on later (Euro 4/5) diesels need a regular long quick run to avoid it getting blocked up? Even then it might be an issue...
If you're paying the bills, and not a gambling man, petrol has to be the way to go.
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