Well here's what happened next (I know pugugly likes to see 'closure' on his board, lol).
Texted dealer on the same Sunday to say that the HPI had now popped up clear and that I was now prepared to buy for cash tomorrow. He got back in touch and the arrangement was made.
The next day, I went to my local bank and arranged for cash to be available at an agreed bank in Birmingham. Bought single rail ticket from Runcorn to Birmingham.
Arrived at Birmingham station and was collected by dealer, in the XK8. Drove to bank and was dropped off to draw money from bank. Money was handed over in 2 brown packets. Walked out of bank, looking left and right to check for muggers. Did not get mugged.
Got back in car and drove across town. Dealer asked me for the cash, explaining that he was going to deposit it in his bank. I said "Can I have a receipt?" He replied "Aww c'mon mate, you've got the car". Hmmm. I passed the 2 packets of money to the dealer who grabbed them and got out of the car and disappeared. He did not open the packets or give me a receipt.
Waited for what seemed like hours in the car but was probably about 15 minutes. Dealer eventually re-appeared and we drove to a Post Office to get a new tax-disc (which, by agreement, I had already given him extra money for). Up until now, the car was being driven around central Birmingham with a tax disc from another car.
After this, drove round to dealer's residence. Dealer cleared his golf balls out of the car (he'd apparently just got back from a Sunday golfing tournament in it), gave me a receipt and I signed the Registration Document stuff. We completed the deal, and I spent the next 15 minutes on his drive phoning to arrange the insurance. Successfully completed, I drove home.
Well, that was about a month ago. So far, nobody's turned up from a finance company with a low-loader. Registration Document has come back, in my name, with no issues.
Structurally & mechanically, the XK8 had prooved virtually perfect; so far, I've found no faults other than the driver's window sometimes 'forgets where it is' and does not close completely when the door is closed / security activated. It's easy to re-set the window, but it shouldn't keep going wrong and is annoying.
It is a joyful experience to drive, can hardly hear engine except for reassuring purrr when right foot twitches, especially with Tiesto pumping out at 100 dB on the CD player. I've spent the last 3 years driving a 155,000 mile Volvo estate so it's too easy to under-estimate my speed in the 45,000 mile XK8 by a large margin based on feedback from the car & road.
Also, I'm disappointed that I can't fit a tow-bar on the XK8. OK, I might be a bit of a pervert wanting to put a trailer on me XK8, but how else do I take bricks and furniture to the tip? S'pose I'll have to hire a van or do it in small pieces, week by week, in the wheelie bin.
However, I am, so far, absolutely delighted with the car. It's definitely a lot better for dates / works' car parks. And is truly a masterpiece of British engineering. I'm just enjoying looking at it and admiring it before it picks up some supermarket carpark dings.
Edited by Lounge Lizard on 22/09/2008 at 02:28
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Good on you, hope you enjoy it
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Regardless of what certain austerity posters put about - there's something special about a prestige brand - Jags have it in spadefuls - enjoy it, no doubt I'll be flamed for this but two BMWs made me feel special, the E39 530d I had and the 535d I sold nearly a year ago.......
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"Up until now, the car was being driven around central Birmingham with a tax disc from another car."
At this point I'd have got out of the car, and told the dealer where to stick it. He's happy to do that/too lazy/too dodgy to apply for trade plates - what else is he prepared to lie/steal/cheat about?
I'm sure the car's lovely, but read my post above. I feel a slight sense of deja-vu.
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Oh goodness , I feel a terrible sense of deja vu.
Virtually the exact same thing happened to my wife and I about a month ago. We subsequently discovered that all the VIN numbers on the car were false, the V5 had been forged (produced new form a stolen blank) and that we had lost all our money. The HPI check overs you for nothing over £3000 if you paid in cash and it is the identity of the car that is in question. I hope that you are not as unfortunate as we were. HPi is clear because the car that you think you are buying is kosher. In fact our Hpi also came up as having outstanding finance but that was becasue the genuine car had just gone through an auction and the finance was being sorted. However the guy that posed as the seller had no knowledge of this and appeared to have 'lied'.
Check the serial number of the V5 and see if the original number has been scraped off and a new number put on.
Proper V5s (i think I am correct in saying), up very close, appear to have the typing done on a dot matrix printer. If your V5 appears to have been done on a typewriter I suspect it may be forged but others will correct me if I am wrong.
Good luck...
Edited by Webmaster on 25/09/2008 at 01:35
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Humpy - he does say "Registration Document has come back, in my name, with no issues." which is good.
Still leaves plenty of questions though.
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OK, but it still begs the question: how carefully are the V5 documents checked at the DVLA? If the document is an original and the serial number and vehicle details check out, will the forgery be spotted?
Don't get me wrong, given what we've been through I hope that the OP is safe...
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Good luck to the OP and I hope all continues to be well.
Best advice from my uncle and ex-trader.
If buying a car from a private address as opposed to a car lot first question:
'Is your name and address on the V5 and will I be viewing the car at that address?'
Any answer other than yes walk away.
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If somebody is a declared trader then the V5 will not normally be in their name regardless of whether it is a house, car lot, office block or spaceship.
To be honest the usual reason for no trade plates and cash please we don't take debit cards is avoidance of VAT and tax rather than dodgy car. Once you're in the system with proper trade plates and known to the DVLA then at some point somebody will make the connection cars are being traded with no VAT registration or declaration on tax returns.
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>>cars are being traded with no VAT registration or declaration on tax returns.
And if they're prepared to fiddle the system, will they fiddle you?
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Well, I suppose if you bought from their home the difference is you know where they live and the DVLA don't.
Personally, I would not want to trade cars from my home address under any circumstances.
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Having read all of the previous comments, I can't believe how ill informed and suspicious people are - given a confluence of events that none of you have a full understanding of you make the immediate and patently wrong assumption that the car dealer in this instance is a complete crook and he's out to fleece the buyer.
Finance companies put a finance marker on cars they finance - its a fact of life that virtually all cars will at one time or another have finance registered against them. It's not a "bad thing", this is the system, and it works well. When a company sells the car, they pay off the finance and (usually) notify Experian and Equifax who remove the finance marker - this process does not always happen swiftly enough, and even when it works well it can take up to 10 days to occur from the point of sale to the dealer.
Very often the dealer buys the car (quite often from an auction, whereby the Auction house will use the money to pay off the finance before releasing the car to the dealer) and advertises it within one or two days, so unbeknownst to the dealer the finance marker is still on the car, but it will be removed in the coming days.
The customer does an HPI check, and because he/she does not have any knowledge of how the system works and does not realise that the finance company/bank/leasing company are usually pretty lazy about removing the finance marker, they immediately cry foul and suspect the poor dealer of being a criminal. No-one stops to think that it may be incompetence on the part of the bank, no one would dare say that HPI are charging you, the customer, for out of date, incorrect and misleading information.
When the dealer hands over the cash to buy the car at the auction, he has a right to expect the marker to be removed. In fact, the auction companies charge a buyers fee which is meant to cover the dealer from buying a car with finance on it as the auction is supposed to pay off the finance and provide a clean bill of health for it. But at that point the bank/leasing company have had their profit out of the car, they are no longer bothered about keeping things up to date as there is no profit in it for them. HPI, who sell you a report based on outdated and incorrect information don't care that the information is out of date - you'll cough up another fee to them to find out the new info and then they've profited twice. So, the one person who's not at fault in this situation with your XK8 is the dealer - but guess who everybody in this thread has blamed ? That's right - the dealer. He gets it in the neck for everything from working from home (a sign of outright criminality according to two posters on here) to checking the money you pay him with is kosher by paying it directly into his bank.
As to the logbook not being in the dealers name - it won't be, and if you expect it to be then you're barking up the wrong tree. The DVLA system of logbook registration in this country does not allow for dealers to be listed as one of the registered keepers of the car, so if you expect his name to be on it then you simply do not understand how logbooks work. That's it - it's YOU who does not understand, not that the dealer is a crook. The only time a dealer's name will be on the logbook is a) it's his own car, he's been using it for a while himself and b) he bought the car with no logbook (another bugbear for the feeble minded on these forums - it is NOT a problem buying cars without a logbook, it's just a piece of paper and generally has little value) and has had to apply for a logbook in his name as the DVLA will not issue a duplicate showing the previous keeper's details, so effectively the dealer has to register it in his own name just like any ordinary owner.
The point made earlier that you should only buy a car if the sellers name is on the logbook, is totally and completely bogus. Go to any large dealership and 99.99% of the cars there will have the previous keepers name on the logbook. It will NOT say 'HR Owen' or 'Williams BMW' or 'Carcraft' or whatever the dealerships name is on the logbook and to state that, as one of the previous posters has, is merely showing a lack of knowledge and alarming stupidity.
To state, as some posters have, that the car you ended up buying 'had issues' is incorrect - oldnotbold has said that : "Still leaves plenty of questions though." Again, this is incorrect. If he was driving it around with a tax disc from another car, that is a minor DVLA/traffic police issue, not an issue related to this car. If you want to get all het up about a guy evading the odd month of road tax - that's up to you. If the finance companies and HPI are incompetent (one is late submitting information, the other is guilty of selling you incorrect information) then don't blame the dealer. Blame them - but of course it's easier to say "What, trading from home ? seems dodgy to me" and try to pass yourself off as somehow knowledgable for being cynical about something you actually know very little about. The propensity for people in these forums to hold forth, stridently at times, about something they have no actual knowledge of is a wonder to behold. It seems that far from being a barrier to discourse, a lack of any concrete knowledge is actually a pre-requisite for these people to spread their ignorance far and wide under the guise of 'knowledge'.
It does pay to be on your guard when buying a car - but assuming that all dealers are crooked unless they operate from a large glass-and-steel shed on the outskirts of town is complete twaddle. The larger dealers do the same job as the smaller ones - they just take another grand or three out of your pocket whilst they're doing it. The fancy showroom is there to take your mind off the raping your wallet is taking - and judging by the numbers flocking to them, it's a good trick as it works on most of the people most of the time.
Anyway - to answer the original post 'HPI Check : Is it bulletproof?' the answer is no. It's often out of date and therefore incorrect - but don't expect an apology from them, or from the finance companies for being slow in updating the credit agency's databases - just stick to blaming the totally innocent dealer and making 'ewww, dodgy' comments under your breath as a cover for your ignorance.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but 90% of the posts in this thread are ignorant gibberish written by people who don't have a clue as to how the motor trade works.
That aside, I'm glad the deal worked out for you and I hope you enjoy the XK8 !
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Very interesting citroenv. Noted for future reference!
Just one thing: I was brought up to think "if in doubt, don't". Speaking for myself, it's evident that there are several organisations involved, any of which can provide duff data. I don't particularly WANT to learn all there is to know about the motor trade. I like cars, not the bureaucracy behind their sale and resale. What you say might well be wholly accurate (and thanks for taking the time to type it all out - i've saved it already!), this is a forum, not for motoring or motor trade professionals, but enthusiasts to discuss things - and as such does a fantastic job :)
assuming that all dealers are crooked unless they operate from a large glass-and-steel shed on the outskirts of town is complete twaddle
I'm happy to say that there are quite a few dealers posting here and they always make sure that assumptions about dealers' assumed crookedness rarely go unchallenged.
R
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I know 3 dealers personally. Two have escaped prison by the skin of their teeth during the last 10 years and the other one is due for release by the end of this year. To be fair to the jailed one, it was more drugs related than car . The other two just got carried away with re financing the same couple of cars over and over again.
Don't ask me how they did it but it worked for 3 years.
They all shared a nice shiny premise with a forecourt and a petrol station.
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I have gone through experiences like the OP's.
My view is that if a dealer can't be bothered to sort out any HPI Isssues BEFORE selling a car, then I will not buy from him.. until it's sorted by HIM..
I don't like hassle from the seeler: I want to BUY, not sort out a mess.
And comments about "mot understanding how the trade operates" may bey well be true.. but as a buyer they come across as arrogance.
I want a simple easy risk free transaction. If the seller cannot do that he is lazy or a crook.
I like to do business with neither.
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MrX - somewhat unfairly hammered by the Police (with nothing better to do) for trying to make a fair living? Not harming anyone, were they?
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Perhaps they took the tin foil off their head for too long....caused them to get caught.
I'm sure Mr X will never make the same mistake...he's got it wrapped around in layers. :)
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Nope. The drug idiot got what he deserved. The two ' fiddlers ' ... well, I wonder how many dealerships have to be a bit creative with their accounting in order to keep the doors open and the lights on ?
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Hmm...so you want the dealer to sort it all out. Then you do an HPI check off your own back and then go by inaccurate information. Do you want the truth or what HPI say?
If the dealer can provide confirmation that the finance is cleared regardless of what HPI say then surely that is good enough. HPI are not god and often get it wrong.
Expecting dealers to sit on cars whilst the finance companies and various HPI & HPI like companies sort themselves out passing bits of paper around is not realistic in this day and age I'm afraid.
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But there are plenty more cars for sale and it is easy to get one that is "clear" with HPI by just going to another dealer who be bothered to make sure things are sorted out.
Think of HPI as the buyers MID.
The warranty from HPI can be worth having.
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At the current rate of wholesale price increases about the only used car on sale below £10,000 by April will be a 1993 Rover 618i in white with a flag on every HPI regsiter....
:)
Written confirmation from the finance company is worth a lot more than an HPI check. Think of all the cars they say finanance is still on which there isn't and then imagine the number which do still have finance with nothing recorded. They're a bit of a joke to be honest.
In reality most dealers know where their cars are from and know full well whether a car has finance outstanding or not and do not use HPI to tell them either way.
On the whole, it is the private sellers you've got to watch.
Edited by pd on 12/03/2009 at 20:38
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citroenv: Your points were very well put across and totally correct. I am a trader working from home (trade plates/vat regd.), so I would just like to ask the good people of this forum if I too am a crook?!
The twaddle that people on internet forums talk about subjects they know very little about (not just automotive) never ceases to amaze me!
NB: I have come across cars that are still recorded on the finance registers with Experian and HPI many YEARS after they have had the finance settled. It is usually down to the ineptitude or laziness of office staff at these companies.
Edited by zm on 12/03/2009 at 21:47
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zm. Obviously!!! ;) [please note big smiley to indicate ironic observation]
>>but 90% of the posts in this thread are ignorant gibberish written by people who
>>don't have a clue as to how the motor trade works.
That would be my view too.
Consider the alternative scenario: that you do your HPI check, it comes back clear and THEN the trader gets a loan against his stock item. My goodness, that's really worrying.
Except... the last time I bought a car I did a basic HPI check on it (£3.95 or whatever it cost me) imagining that it provided some sort of insurance... NO! If you buy a car from a dealer, and he signs a declaration that it is free of outstanding finance THEN the finance company apparently cannot come after you.
What can I say: I bought my lovely Legacy in January slightly above Glass's "poor" trade-in price from just such a trader: no trade plates, no licence disc, just a FANTASTIC price. (And a mate with a petrol station and a debit card machine which made the "cash" bit much easier.) And the bits of string and tape holding it together are still holding it together and haven't yet revealed themselves...
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