What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
My Ford Ka was bought in September 2003, so coming up to 5 years old.

On the underside of the sill on the driver side, there is rust bubbling through everywhere.

The underside of the sill on the passenger side, while by no means perfect, is pretty good.

1) Why should it be so much worse on the driver's side?

2) What do I do? I plan to keep the car. If it was just two or three spots, I'd deal with it myself. But it isn't. How much chance do I have of claiming on the Ford anti-rust warranty?
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
p.s.

1) The rust is actually on the paintwork

2) And yes, I have re-read Shoespy's (HB's) thread at www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=58294
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Alby Back
Clipe !

;-)
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - jc2
Ford corrosion warranty covers rust coming thro' the body-not external-most other manufacturers are similar.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - L'escargot
Anti-rust warranties usually only apply where there is actual perforation, and even then (as jc2 says) only from the inside.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
OK, I know this sounds silly, but how exactly can I tell whether it is coming from the inside and whether there is actual perforation?

Reading this page made me wonder if I might have some hope: tinyurl.com/5pokvy
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
If it helps, here is a photograph.

tinyurl.com/63udf7
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Another John H
If you've got bubbling paint, unless the car was built from poor quality steel, there's a pin hole through the metal under every bubble.

Won't be an obvious gaping chasm, but trying to clean down to bright metal won't happen if that's the case.

The little brown spots do go right through, and they didn't start under the paint.


The trouble is, to prove the point, somebody has to get brutal with the paintwork and the garage may well say you made the problem.


All IME, others may have different opinions.

---

edit.

just seen the picture. That's nasty.

I'd tart it up and get rid.

Edited by Another John H on 28/07/2008 at 20:29

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - CGNorwich
Some rust on a 5 year old budget car that you can buy new fromr less than 5K? Realistically left untreated it will give you transport for a few more years even if does look a bit shabby. Alternatively a quick tart up, sell it and buy something with galvanised doors.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - TimOrridge
Thats terrible, theres no rust on at all on my L reg 160,000 mile audi 80
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - steveo3002
id say thats rotted from inside out...will be some holes if you prob it with a screwdriver

dunno what it is with fords...you see other cheaper brands way older and clean as a whistle

our f reg polo aint that rusty on the sills lol
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - The Melting Snowman
Very poor quality, assuming the car has not be crashed and tarted up badly. Not good for corporate reputation. Seeing a rusty KA might put one off spending £20K on a S-MAX 2.5, might it not...
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Pugugly
Sis' much loved and cherished Puma sprang rust on the rear wheel arch 40k on an X plate - She bought Mrs P's MINI, a very early one. Hardly ever washed (only by rainfall) and moon-shot mileage, not a rusty mark on it anywhere - even the unpainted stone chips stayed resolutely primer coloured. Difficult to figure.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - NowWheels
<< Some rust on a 5 year old budget car that you can buy new fromr less than 5K? >>

And how much would it have cost the manufacturer to have galvanised it properly so that it didn't rust like a 1950s car?
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Armitage Shanks {p}
More than the profit they made by selling it ungalvanised!
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Blue {P}
Ford made peanuts from the Ka, hence it has been in production for so long, it helps to spread the development costs. Basically the plug was very nearly pulled on the model a few years ago but it was decided to keep it going despite it's minimal profits. Adding a galvanised body would probably have made it unprofitable.

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - doctorchris
Same description would apply to the Fiat Panda base model, 1.1 Active, but I bet the earliest examples, which will be 5 years old next year, won't be showing any rust.
Older Ford cars such as the Ka, Fiesta and Puma have a rather disgraceful rust habit that Ford seems to have got away with as regards to adverse publicity and resale values.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Blue {P}
Ah yes, but the Panda wasn't put into production in 1996 so designed circa mid-nineties though. Im confident(ish) that the new Ka won't rust either, it's easy to forget that the current model is basically a car from another time. There can't be many other 12 year old designs still in production!

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
Blue, since you are about the closest thing to a Ford insider in the BR, do you mind if I ask what you reckon my chances are of claiming on the bodywork warranty?
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Blue {P}
Blue since you are about the closest thing to a Ford insider in the BR
do you mind if I ask what you reckon my chances are of claiming on
the bodywork warranty?


It's been a while since I was an insider now believe me! There's probably more actual insiders at the Ka Forums although I can't remember their address.

However, from what I can remember, a bodywork warranty claim is pretty difficult, in order to keep the warranty valid the service book bodywork section must be stamped when the car is serviced, this is something that most dealerships neglect to do and as a result gives Ford a handy get-out clause.

It is still apparently possible to claim despite a missing set of stamps but be prepared for a good fight, if Ford started paying out on every rusty Ka they'd most likely go out of business! Despite all this, I still quite like the Ka, I had one as a courtesy vehicle the other day and I have to say it was good fun.

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
Thanks for that, Blue.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - gray
Speaking from experience with Ford. You have a 6 year warranty covering perforating rust. ie. If the paint is bubbling it is coming from the inside outwards. Not covered is rust which begins its life after a scratch or chipping damage. Had my fiesta "repaired" by the dealer twice. Said they were going to replace the wings but didn't. 6weeks later bubbles appeared again so they had another go making an almighty mess of the exterior trims and interior. After a year of battling with them I auctioned the car just to get rid.The warranties dept will not communicate with the public so you have to battle it out with the dealership. My advice would be to run it to the ground unless you have nerves of steel and a good control of your blood pressure.
Graham

Edited by gray on 29/07/2008 at 10:45

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - L'escargot
My Ford Ka was bought in September 2003 so coming up to 5 years old.


How come you didn't notice it earlier? I'm sure the rust hasn't suddely appeared.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
Graham,
Thanks for that. Interesting. I'm not quite sure I understand the last sentence. Are you saying that dealing with the dealership will require nerves of steel and a good control of blood pressure, so it might be simpler just to let nature take its course?

L'escargot,
Good question, because I was dealing with rust spots last summer, and didn't notice these ones. I think that it is a combination of the fact that
a) the rust was in a place that wasn't very obvious,
b) I wasn't very observant, and
c) It really has come on fairly quickly in the past 12 months.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - DP
Perforation warranties aren't worth the paper they are printed on. We had a 1998 VW Polo with bubbles on the rear arches at just over 5 years old. VW got out of that by saying the last service wasn't done at a VW dealer, thereby rendering the warranty null and void. Even if it had, the effort and damage required to prove the "inside out" stipulation of the warranty is something few owners would sanction without a guarantee that they weren't going to be liable for the cost.

Even less excusable than Ford, because the Polo wasn't a cheap car. My in-laws bought it new for well over 10k, when an equivalent engined and specced Fiesta or Corsa would have been 2k cheaper.

They say you should always find a positive in any situation, and in this case I learned that VW don't know the meaning of the term 'customer service', and that I would never again make any significant investment in one of their products. Their loss, at the end of the day. Oh, and I now have lost any ability to do anything other than snigger at their quality and solidity claims in ads.

Cheers
DP
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - madf
My 2002 Fiesta started going like that KA. It's basically carp paintwork.

(and the underbody seal peeled off).

I'll never buy a Ford again.

(excusable in the 19990s, not in the 21st century).
Toyota paintwork is much better. (and the service is far better)

Edited by madf on 29/07/2008 at 22:37

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
UPDATE

I telephoned my local Ford dealership and made an appointment to take the car in to be checked, making it clear that I was interested in the possibility of claiming under the warranty.

The gent from the dealership who deals with these things came out with a digital camera to where I had parked my car and asked where the problem was. I showed him the area under the sill (see pic above), and also a little rust around the petrol cap. He had a look and found some more - and told me he knows where to look - he gets a lot of these things.

(Interestingly enough, it was a dreadful day and there was a fair amount of muck on the car by the time I got it to the dealership. I would have given it a wipe under the sill if I had known he would just take digital pics to send off - but I didn't. I wondered how useful the pics would be under the circumstances.)

Anyway, he told me he would send them off - I think he said they went to Coventry, and we would await their reply.

Yesterday I discovered the result. Ford admitted the problem around the petrol cap was their fault and they would fix it under warranty. BUT the bad bit under the sill they declared to be due to stone chips, grit, etc.

Now personally, I'm sceptical about that - partly because I have mudguards on the front tyres which mean that there shouldn't be much trouble with stone chipping in that area, but mostly because, while the offside is terrible, the nearside is fine, and there are at least as many stones etc on the nearside of the road as the offside.


Is there anything I can do? Can I appeal?
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Leif
My Ka is 6.5 years old, and I recently noticed some small signs of rust on the underbody, also on the offside oddly enough. These cars are made to last 7 years or so, and any more is a bonus. But I do see a lot of much older ones on the roads, so they can't be that bad.

The OP's example looks awful though. Does this rust cause a problem or is it cosmetic?
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Blue {P}
You can probably appeal against it by speaking to them directly, but it may not get you very far.

I would definitely accept the work on the petrol cap and then consider having new sills fitted yourself which may not cost too much. My 8 year old Mondeo was rusting badly around the arches, above the rear bumper line and down where the water gets trapped at the bottom of the arch near the sills.

I managed to get both sides of the car fixed by cutting away the old metal and welding on new arches and smaller patches of steel over the smaller isolated bits of rot. It was then all rustproofed and resprayed for the grand sum of £400. I don't think that's a bad price for all the work the guy had to do and my car looks mint again now! (something smugly satisfying about knowing my Mondeo is the best W reg one on the road!) If you're located in the north east I'll give you the guy's details.

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
Thanks very much, Blue. That's very helpful indeed.

So you reckon that it's not just a matter of removing rust, cleaning back, repainting etc - but that I should actually have the metal cut out completely? Hmmm. A big job that. But if it is the best option, I'd be better going for it. I guess cleaning / rust removal / repainting might cost almost as much.

Alas, I am nowhere near the north east - I'm over 350 miles north of Newcastle in the Highlands, which means that I'm going to have to go about 100 miles to get the work done. The joys of living in the middle of nowhere!

The distance problem means that it would be good to have it done all at once. If it is all done by the Ford garage on one occasion, I'd get a courtesy car, and it would save a lot of bother. If I was to get the warranty work done - (which I gather would take about 4 days) on one occasion, and the sill done at a different place and different occasion, it would be a bit of a pain! A small independent might be good, but they don't give courtesy cars.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Galaxy
Yes, looking at the photograph, you are talking about a new fitted sill to cure the problem on that side. It's well past the filling, sanding and painting stage. If left with nothing done then in 12 months time that sill will just be a large hole when the rust bursts through the surface from the inside. That's where it has come from, by the way, not the outside as KA's aren't galvanised!
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Glaikit Wee Scunner {P}
I know it is no consolation, but that's the way it was up to the 1980's.
New sills were a matter of routine for those wonderful Classic Cars we churned out.
Mini needed sills and boot floor welding at 18 months from new.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - William Stevenson
This is all very interesting. I have trusty 150k 94 (95 model) Astra Estate which I think is not galvanised- I think that was the next Astra. Not much of a rust problem at all- offside rear wheel arch rim going and some small perforations inside the door, presumably from water getting in past the windows. Never had any bodywork renovation, very rarely washed and hardly ever waxed- plain red. Always kept outdoors. Average amount of travel on salted roads and no door sill damage.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - barney100
I had rust on an 8 year old Merc and the main dealer did the lot for free under warranty despite the services being done by main dealers and independents. Their chap helpfully pointed out a couple of other spots I'd missed too.
All you can do is try the dealer for warranty work, if no joy flog; fix or plain keep it!
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - bbroomlea{P}
If its any consolation my supposedly galvanised 6 year old Audi is starting to rust on the front wings and behind the rear number plate!

That sill looks past its best and will likely fail an mot in 12 months time - its probably had rust on it for 2 years more but being hidden you wouldnt notice it. I would be concerned about the amount of rust underneath the car as well looking at that picture.

Can you not get rid quick as the box sections, inner sills etc will be next - even if Ford do sort out the cosmetic bits.

Unfortunately we stopped our search for a Puma as even relatively young ones were starting to rot.

Although our Rover we have had for years is almost dead, its barely got a spot of rust on it - 12 years old, 140,000 miles and not exactly looked after underneath either.
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Blue {P}
Hi Tyro - that's definitely a new sill job, there won't be any clean metal left, you would grind it all away!

If you can't get anywhere with an appeal, why not have a friendly word with the bodyshop manager and explain the predicament and ask if any of his guys would like the extra work over and above the petrol flap for cash, it may not cost much seeing as they are already doing some welding anyway and will have pain mixed etc.

I've had work done at one of the big local bodyshops a few years ago, I paid the painter directly in cash and he kept a little bit back for his boss. I'm sure if you're friendly he may be willing to consider the work. Also, ask if you can supply your own sill from an aftermarket company as this will be much cheaper. (My work involved new sill section, two arches and some assorted small patches, the parts alone would have cost nearly £400 at Ford but I got the whole job done for the same price!) If you stress that you aren't bothered about getting a receipt then they may be willing to do it.

I know it's not perfect due to lack of warranty, but if they're sensible they may be flexible. If they also rustproof the new sill then it won'trot again, a lot of garages still offer Schultz or Waxoyl if you ask.

Failing that, is there not a small backstreet bodyshop nearer you? Living in a city I find it hard to comprehend there been NO bodywork facillity in 100 miles radius! The one that did my Mondeo don't even have their own premises, they work from within a normal backstreet garage but his work was excellent. He even covered the arches in stone chip shielding before painting to ensure that they don't rot again. (OEM arches on the MK2 aren't protected in this way)

What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
Result

I hope you are all sitting comfortably. Here?s the story.

I decided that since Ford had offered to do some work under warranty, that I would get a quote from the Ford Dealer for doing the lot - with Ford picking up the tab for their bit, and me picking up the tab for the rest.

The estimate arrived in December, and read as follows:
Areas to be repaired: Replace R/H sill
Areas to be painted: Paint R/H sill and L/H/R ¼ panel
Parts Required: R/H sill
Our estimate is submitted prior to dismantling and a more detailed examination. Consequently, any further repairs or parts required will be the subject of a supplementary estimate and we will seek further approval before proceeding with the work. . . .


The cost was going to be just short of £700 (including VAT).

At this point I hesitated. I went back to the dealer after Christmas, and the chap in the bodyshop who had been dealing with my claim had been replaced. The new chap told me that the basic reason why the Ford Warranty department had not been willing to do everything required was that there were no stamps in the service book to indicate that the annual bodywork check had been done. This was news to me.

I decided, more out of frustration than anything, to go and speak to the manager of the dealer?s service department, and tell him how disappointed I was that even though I had brought my car in to them once a year for a service, not a single stamp appeared for the annual bodywork check. He assured me that the work would certainly have been done since he became the service manager, and told me that their records would be able to prove this. The records were filed away, and it would take a few days to locate them, but if I left my service book in, he would find the records, and have the stamps put in my book.

Well, that happened - though it took a couple of weeks, rather than a few days. He also photocopied the book, and passed it to the bodywork department so that they could send it to the Ford warranty department. When this finally happened, the Ford warranty department got back to him and asked them to supply the paperwork from the service department to prove that the work had been done and that these new stamps in my service book were valid. I phoned back every week or two to ask what was happening, and was told they were still waiting for the service department to dig out the paperwork. Eventually, I telephoned the service manager myself, and within a fortnight, the paperwork was passed to the bodywork, who submitted it to the Ford Warranty department, who agreed to do the work. By which time it was May!

Anyway, the car was booked in for June 1, and I brought it in that day. I was told that it would be ready in two days. I found this difficult to believe. I was right. The car was finally ready for me to pick up today.

What I learned was that even though the R/H sill looked bad, it was not actually perforated, so they only buffed it down and repainted it. However, the area around the petrol cap was so badly rusted that they decided to replace the L/H/R ¼ panel. (That was what took the time).

I asked the gent at the bodyshop, who has been quite helpful, what this work would have cost had I been paying for it. He did some quick mental calculations and indicated that it would probably have been between £800 and £1000.

I also asked how long it would be before the rust started coming through on the sill again. He indicated that it was difficult to know. It could start coming through in under two years - or it might be OK for 5 years. Not great, but since I didn?t have to pay anything, I guess I?ll not complain.

Oh, and one small footnote - or perhaps I should say confession. I have owned one Ford before - a Fiesta Mk 3. It too had a rust problem, and I managed to get remedial work done on the warranty.

And it soon started rusting through again.



What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - bell boy
nice to see you got it sorted after 11 months
however if you read this www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=75...6
according to this guy you cant put a rear quarter on unless you put the whole b post on too and weld it to the roof
unfortunately ive never seen a ka rear quarter section that comes complete with this so maybe you need to talk to ford to see if according to thatcham the strength as when it left the factory has been restored

ps im quite confident your ford bodyshop did a 100% proper repair by the way
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - Victorbox
" also asked how long it would be before the rust started coming through on the sill again. He indicated that it was difficult to know. It could start coming through in under two years - or it might be OK for 5 years."

Not very confident in the quality of their workmanship are they?
What do I do about rust on a 4.9 year old car? - tyro
Victorbox:

>>Not very confident in the quality of their workmanship are they?

Well, I took it that they were just being honest and realistic. I am under the impression that with this kind of work, it is inevitable that unless one actually cuts out and replaces the affected metal, the rust will reappear, no matter how good the quality of the work is. But I may be wrong.

bell boy:

Thanks for that. Interesting, but not encouraging. If I get around to asking them, and get a coherent answer that I can understand, I'll report back
 

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