Initially, when I described the loss of power, computer diagnostics was the first call but I went outside to see whether my car had been moved and the designated engineer joined me outside and it was there that I explained about the funny dead feel the accelerator had, with limited movement.
I was told that this would be removed and examined and I expect the diagnostics was still done after the mechanical fault was cleared for no other reason than completeness -what's wrong with a quick check like that - I would certainly have had no objection, had I been subsequently asked.
Edited by Pugugly on 27/07/2008 at 18:19
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>>the designated engineer
I think you mean mechanic, or, perhaps, technician, but almost definitely not engineer.
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"It's the ambulancemen argument, they are carriers of meat, not surgeons. "
Ambulancemen are not "carriers of meat" but provide excellent and highly skilled on the spot care frequently in difficult circumstances, and clearly in your case with little or no appreciation of what they actually do. I hope you and yours are never in similar circumstances, but our family have every reason to be grateful to to them. Your comment is ignorant and ill advised.
MGs
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>>Your comment is ignorant and ill advised.>>
Seconded, with 100 per cent emphasis.
Perhaps the requirements to become a paramedic should be studied (with awe) by ifithelps?
Edited by Stuartli on 27/07/2008 at 22:13
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I had an unbelievable piece of good luck 20 odd years ago. My "summer car" (150 quid Talbot Horizon, which I sold on two months later for half that, so couldn't really complain) overheated in Bournemouth on my way to the midlands to take my then girlfriend home.
A very obliging semi-retired chap at the local Peugeot-Talbot dealer, very near to where I'd got steamed up, was just knocking off at Saturday midday when I limped up to the forecourt. He instantly diagnosed a blown thermostat gasket and sent me to the Parts counter.
All was well again an hour later (55 minutes to let the cooling system cool down and 5 mins to replace the part!) The repair came to 12p for the gasket plus two tips - a tenner for labour and 2 quid for the very obliging waiter at the Royal Bath Hotel who took me a watering can of water from the kitchen to my stricken car.
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"It's the ambulancemen argument they are carriers of meat not surgeons. " Ambulancemen are not "carriers of meat" but provide excellent and highly skilled on the spot...>>.
I did say 'argument' and it is one you will hear in hospitals.
'Carriers of meat' may be a blunt phrase, but some would say the ambulaceman's main responsibility is to get the patient quickly to a place - hospital - where there is the expertise and resources to give treatment.
Getting back to motoring, I don't criticise the RAC/AA patrolman who can't fix the car and takes a similar approach.
The side of the road can be a dangerous place for many reasons, better to drag the car and its human contents to a place that is safe and where the car can be repaired.
Hopefully, the garage meets both criteria.
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>>the designated engineer I think you mean mechanic or perhaps technician but almost definitely not engineer.
Yes, of course I meant 'Mechanic' it's just that at the moment of typing I couldn't remember the appopriate word to use - this is happening more frequently as I age and I often experience complete loss of ability to find the obvious word when I need it!
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This does sound like a very straightforward problem to diagnose. The first thing I'd check would be for something jammed where it shouldn't be - especially with an accelerator pedal - I've never heard of an ECU that could inhibit mechanical movement in the event of an engine glitch - perhaps we're all getting a bit carried away with perceptions of what engine managment systems (can) do.
So, easy meat for a garage mechanic - probably needed to throw in a 'diagnostic' to pad out the time it actually took. No disrespect to garage or mechanic - they have to cover the rent, but it not splitting the atom is it.
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The first thing I'd check would be for something jammed where it shouldn't be - especially with an accelerator pedal
Me too woodbines, but smartypants like us are useless to the garage trade, counting out our pennies with great reluctance. We are not proper punters. If I may quote myself:
'The automobile started as a toy for rich gents and then became a cheap copy of that. So woe betide us, sooner or later, if we fail to pay up like the cheap copies of rich gents we are assumed to be.'
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>>We are not proper punters.
Well, a reluctant punter like yourself Lud. IIRC, the original usage of 'punter' is one who likes to bet or gamble - but it's become more generally extended to the buyer of any good or service it seems. Maybe the etymology & adopted meaning is quite apt then!
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Indeed woodbines, the clear implications of the use of this term to mean 'client' or 'customer' were not lost on me when I first heard it in the seventies, in the minicab trade not very surprisingly. However it soon passed into the vocabulary of art dealers and such, and is now commonplace in all walks of life including politics where I believe it means 'constituent' or 'voter'.
Yup, we're rotten all right.
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This does sound like a very straightforward problem to diagnose.
That's probably the case - the first thing I would be looking for is a slipped mat hindering the pedal's motion.
However, all faults are obvious...
...once you've heard what the solution is.
From the comfort of the armchair, with the full story available, anyone can pronounce. While the car's in front of you, and the "punter" is angrily drumming his fingers in reception, it can be slightly different matter!
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Perhaps not just punters but sometimes even mechanics (and perhaps even more engineers) get so carried away by electronic complexity in the modern automobile that they forget to look for simple mechanical causes of faults. Are we in danger of forgetting that the automobile is a mechanical device?
Even more to the point, are car designers subverting the highly evolved mechanical purity of the automobile to deepen the radical dependency of the car owner, under the guise of improving the thing in ways that are not all improvements?
Just asking.
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Most of you are being unbelievably smug, sarcastic and wise after the event. Even with my past experience in car maintenance, amounting to complete engines strip-downs, replacing clutches and suspension units etc. I had a conflict of information in my brain and had realised, by the time I arrived at the garage, that the fault felt 'mechanical' and had thought that the pedal mechanism had perhaps disintegrated behind the pedal but being, now, over 70 and not so agile as I once was, I was unable to ascertain exactly where the fault was and even bifocals aren't any good when your face is only a few inches from the pedal.
Some of you may be getting on in years and we all age in different ways but maybe there will be a day when you find yourselves in the predicament I found myself where the AA or a convenient garage is your only solution. I know that I was grateful whatever the cost.
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Well I think you have got a good deal there, considering the main dealers overheads £41 is a bargain!
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og: although I did wonder why you hadn't looked under the pedal, I avoided saying so because we have all done things like that, and been lucky to get away with it even if a bit annoyed with ourselves afterwards. The last of my posts in particular made two general points that apply across the board (if they apply at all that is).
And of course we practical types ready to diagnose and treat any automotive problem on the hoof, so to speak, can sometimes get into terrible trouble through overconfidence and, er, one thing leading to another. I have said before that one day I will tell the story of how I, and a lot of idle drunken useless Czechs, systematically destroyed the engine of my last and best Skoda Estelle. But it's still too painful and embarrassing, so you will have to wait (if we both live that long).
No offence. Glad yr jalopy is OK.
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og: although I did wonder why you hadn't looked under the pedal I avoided saying so because we have all done things like that and been lucky to get away
I really am surprised at the ignorance shown here, to be honest. Have any of you seen the Golf MKV's accelerator pedal setup? I think not in view of the comments here.
Even by inspection, it is NOT possible to see what has got into the internal mechanism from above and behind this type of organ pedal operation. Obviously it's not a simple arrangement, as there is the electrical lead visible, which comes away from the back of a control box and all this is to the rear of the pedal and close to the fulcrum of the pedal assembly. A foreign object could have been anywhere and unless one was very familiar with this setup, I defy anyone to be able to remove said object whilst in situ
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ignorance shown here to be honest. Have any of you seen the Golf MKV's accelerator pedal setup?
That was another reason why I didn't comment directly on your case og. I haven't looked at the Golf V pedal setup. And actually your op did make clear that it wasn't the usual simple arrangement.
As so often here, the thread spiralled off through people's rambling accounts of similar incidents, and general saloon bar bore remarks about the automobile. There's no need to feel that you have been dissed, not by me anyway.
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Taking your points together Lud, I don't think that it's the fault of modern car design, but, more of an odd quirk of human nature that causes people to concentrate on the complex and difficult, sometimes overlooking the simple and the obvious.
It's a fairly common scenario on the technical forum, where a new poster comes along and says their car has a misfire, and how much is an ECU? Then, more experienced types chime in and ask the OP about plugs, plug leads, and other more basic items.
More often than not, despite the Luddite tendencies and paranoia of many on this forum, it is the simple and the cheap that has gone wrong. ECUs and the like are usually very reliable indeed, but, are needlesly fitted by those who don't really understand what they are doing.
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You seem to agree with me in the main NC.
However I insist there is a malevolent side to some of the changes to the way cars are put together and programmed. By giving us twaddle like the number-recognizing magic eye in the Vauxhall thingie, the hope must be that we will fail to notice that it takes a week with the engine out to change a light bulb. I exaggerate only to make the point. Not all improvements are really improvements, and I don't think they are always meant to be. There's far too much at stake for the industry to really have our best interests at heart. This isn't paranoia, it's just the way things are and always have been.
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>>This isn't paranoia,...
Nobody forces anyone to buy a particular motor car over any other. While there would be some (you & oilrag perhaps?) who might buy a very simple motor car, a quick glance around most car parks suggests that most people like the extra features on offer.
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You don't understand NC. Everyone likes the positive aspects of development. I don't know about oilrag, but if I had the means I would certainly not hesitate over a bit of complexity. I would love to use a Maserati coupe as a runabout and have some sort of invincible V8 Audi with trick 4WD to get around quickly. I envy, in a way, those who can afford to do that. But even if I could afford it and indulged myself to the full, I would not be blind to the nature of our economic system and the role of the automobile in it, with all the knock-on effects that has on the automobile itself and indeed on the road laws and on society at large.
Of course I love the things just as much as you do or more. I just understand they aren't as they are for my convenience or to save me money.
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NC, you`re right about me. I even prefer a basic van over a basic car... cos its more basic..;)
Lud, just following this thread on FF....
tinyurl.com/6yrcaz
It all seems quite desperate really and I don`t rule out abandoning modern vehicles altogether in the future. Maybe it`s all the last Hyper-gasp of mech though... Before simple electric motors come in.
We made our own `trolleys` as kids, box as a seat, pram wheels and axles front and back.
I think my love of `basic` stems from that ;)
Anyway, I wrung my hands in despair in late 05, on buying the van new and missing the last models produced without ABS by a few months.
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"I don't know about oilrag, but if I had the means I would certainly not hesitate over a bit of complexity."
No, In have trouble spending on cars. Just watch me get 10/15 years out of the van ;)
Unless the common rail bit gives grief of course, in which case it`s straight out on its ear and in with a basic petrol job. It would be another small van. Cars are far too lush inside for my rather eccentric tastes.
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Well actually oilrag, I said Maserati coupe because it's beautiful, dramatic, quick and sort of afffordable to a well-heeled person, but what I would really like as a runabout is one of those very stark, light, 1.5 litre V12 Ferrari barchettas from the early fifties, with cart-sprung beam rear axle. Of course those cost millions now and aren't practical, but I so like the thought of tuning all those downdraught Dell'ortos... Keep me happy for hours, that.
Simple enough for ya?
:o}
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Indeed Lud, the technician & dictator all love to keep us in the thrall on their mighty & mystical powers. The reply from NC (..and his many other replies too - which usually consist of magic numbers & formulae) is typical - it's good for you man & you know you want it!
From the humble plumber (sorry 'heating engineer') to the spotty numpty at the local computer store, if you can mystify the process you can always have a nice revenue stream from fixing it or servicing it. It's a form of slavery, you buy technology & the seller has a Tithe on your earnings (would that it was only the historical one tenth part as well!).
Before NC comes back & accuses me of Luddite tendencies, I might inform him that I'm not & do a very technical job in telecomms - it's just that I've seen it & practised (to my shame!) the process. I applaud Oilrag - refuse to be drawn into the 'dependency' culture where merely 'tampering' with an engine cover can result in invalid warranty (or should that be ex-communication?).
Edited by Pugugly on 28/07/2008 at 19:24
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HaHa - I notice the rather illiterate swear filter confuses t-i-t-h-e with lady bumps.
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Edited in for you - doubt whether the authors of the Swearfilter ever expected the word to be used in a month of Sundays.
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Actually PU I too came up against that one, in a reference to old barns built for a certain purpose. All good fun though...
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Oh dear woodbines - I really seem to have upset you - not my intention.
I find it amazing how many people buy motor cars (or anything that's expensive) and then don't find out basic things about it. Many don't even read the manual!
It would be unrealistic to suggest that everyone should know their car in pedantic technical detail, but knowing little or nothing is asking, nay begging, to be taken advantage of.
It's funny that you touch on the subject of warranty, because I actually think it is in most cases a bad thing for the customer. It locks him into dealership servicing, and bolsters the idea that people don't need to know about their cars.
>>which usually consist of magic numbers & formulae
I try and explain as much as possible what the sums are about, and if anyone asked, I would be glad to explain where it all comes from - oddly enough, people very rarely do ask.
IMO, if you don't understand the maths, you don't understand. Or, phrased in a more friendly way, nature speaks to us most directly via mathematics.
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IMO if you don't understand the maths you don't understand. Or phrased in a more friendly way nature speaks to us most directly via mathematics.
As Galileo might well have said and probably did. But the Renaissance and the Enlightenment have led imperceptibly to something different, and perhaps for the time being a bit worse.
Once again NC we seem to be largely in agreement. Not about poor woodbines though, he is quite right too. And not about the maths either, which I don't understand easily or fluently and can only be bothered with sometimes. Of course I'm not casting any doubt on it. However it is only needed for some purposes. Usually the principles suffice for basic understanding.
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>>As Galileo might well have said and probably did.
Sorry Lud, post renaissance, and post enlightenment, I *think* that I'm paraphrasing a quotation of Heisenberg, but, I can't be certain.
>>Usually the principles suffice for basic understanding.
Yes, but, until you've turned the problem round all ways, you don't fully understand. The most direct way to do that is mathematically. There are many popular expositions of complex natural phenomena for the layman, in the subjects where I have a small understanding, despite their verbosity, these books never get anywhere near giving you the understanding that a few pages of maths would give. Yes, you can't read the maths like the leader column in the daily rag, yes, you'll probably need to give it some serious thought, but, it is the direct route.
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"It's funny that you touch on the subject of warranty,"
I abandoned my Warranty after the first main dealer service and did it all myself after that. Actually, I re-did that service too, just to be sure it was right, regarding the main dealer oil change as a `flush`.
Edited by oilrag on 28/07/2008 at 21:32
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I have bought 2 SEATs from the Westerham Garage, and have nothing but praise for them (and their products too, in fact). In all dealings, the staff were helpful, courteous and went out of their way to meet my needs. Thoroughly recommended if you want to buy a SEAT in the SE London or Kent area.
BW,
Alex.
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Just to clarify my comments above. It's probable that the bill was based on the time it took to complete & interpret the diagnostic (to eliminate electronics' related issues), while the mechanic concurrently got on with the more obvious task of checking mechanical integreties & function - whence was found the offending stone. I'm sure this represented good service & fair charging by the garage for the OP in his position.
My point is more related to the general idea that we're increasingly made more dependent on garages for diagnosing & fixing 'simple' probelms by the (apparent) complexities presented by modern cars
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Useful Marxist analytical concept woodbines, the creation or maintenance of 'radical dependence' or dependency in consumers... The point being that although it has an accidental side, it is naive to see it as purely accidental.
Edited by Lud on 29/07/2008 at 15:11
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I think I'm beginning to see what you're both on about.
For me, the real problem is that there aren't common standards and protocols to enable independent garages and people to have full access to control unit data.
In some cases, this is a good thing. I wouldn't want the security of my car being compromised by any Tom, Dick, or Harry being able to program a key for it.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to have to pay a dealer to turn a fault warning lamp off when I've found and fixed the fault.
I'm sure Screwloose could easily frighten us with the costs he faces in equipping himself with tools, software, and information to enable him to do the work he does on a range of vehicles.
In the early days of self diagnosis, where, one could obtain fault codes via paper clip techniques, or via dwell meters, at least the independant and the DIYer could do something, only needing more advanced access to see live data.
Yes, there are common(ish) standards for emissions related engine faults, but, that doesn't go anywhere near far enough towards helping the DIYer.
Having said all of this, manufacturers have always tried this type of thing on. I was always surprised at how many designs of contact breaker points there were. Where a dozen standardised designs would have been technically adequate for virtually all cars, there were instead, hundreds; ditto caps, condensors, rotor arms.
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