Hi fellow motorists, Im not a true petrol head,but ive sold machinery to the trade for over thirty years and im an avid fan of the way cars are made, run, and sold. Im particularly amazed to the extent "badge engineering" is so rampant thesedays. You really dont know what your actually buying, and its clever marketing. I dont see anything basically wrong with the principal, it must keep costs down, and it costs mega bucks to develop new engines/platforms. I would just like more transparency. I know its nothing new, I passed my test in a Morris 1100 ,(IM Old), and at the time there were four makes on the go, you could have an Austin 1100, a Morris, a Riley and a Wolsely. But they all looked the same, apart from trim, badge, spec and performance. These days it aint so easy. Most folks it seems dont realise that VW cars can appear in various guises and that Seat, Skodas, and Audis, are often VW classics under the skin, or maybe trim would be more accurate. I note the Skoda Suberb dosnt even try to disguise its roots apart from the badge.
So with VW, GM, Ford, etc rebadging and rebodying willy nilly I think it would be a great help to know exactly whats underneath the skin. Motoring writers blow the gaff now and again, but its obiously not common knowledge outside the trade, and Ive seen peoples jaw drop when they find out they are actually driving a Golf with another name. I saw a Nissan van the other day that looked just like a Renault, my mate next to me said , thats cos it is!!! I hear in Australia if you buy a Ford its actually a Mazda, the only Ford bit is the badge. Please let me know, I reckon theres enough here for a book, maybe called, "So you thought you were driving a ?????.
Cheers , keep on truckin , Rugman 08
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There is something I've noticed about badge engineering and the comments from those considering cars with shared platforms and components - in particular VAG and GM products.
VAG - A Skoda is considered a cheaper version of an Audi and this is a good reason to buy one.
GM - A Saab is considered an expensive Vectra and this is bad reason to buy one.
A bit of philosophy for a Friday afternoon.
Will the Vectra ever be seen as a cheaper Saab?
Edited by daveyjp on 25/07/2008 at 15:39
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"VAG - A Skoda is considered a cheaper version of an Audi and this is a good reason to buy one.
GM - A Saab is considered an expensive Vectra and this is bad reason to buy one."
A Skoda is typically a cheaper VW. And an Audi a more expensive VW. And a Bentley a very expensive VW (Phaeton).
So a Saab is a more expensive GM by this logic.
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There are many, many differences between (e.g.) an Audi and it's equivalent VW.
Paint thinkness (much thicker on Audi than VW)
Panel thickness (much thicker on Audi than VW)
Level of over Engineering (e.g. 2.0TDi Audi A3 has much wider radiator than 2.0TDi Golf; more complex suspension; better engineered engine mountings; less NVH)
Level of refinement (much more sound deadening and better quality trim in Audi)
Level of dealer service (Audi give you A6 courtest car; VW give you a Polo; Audi offer £500 goodwill gesture for a major fault in first 12 months, VW offer you two fingers)
Equipment (lots of small touches in Audi - e.g. illuminated arm rest; date on clock display; enhanced fuel computer - that you don't get in VW)
I'm sure the same kind of differences become apparent when comparing VW to Seat, and Seat to Skoda.
Might sound like badge snobbery, but compare residuals and overall cost of ownership and the cost differential of buying a VW over an Audi becomes marginal.
PS I've owned both VW and Audi - several of each in fact - and have found the above to apply to them all, without exception.
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This pictures sums up everything (although a bit out of date)
tinyurl.com/6l46pc
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Might sound like badge snobbery but compare residuals and overall cost of ownership and the cost differential of buying a VW over an Audi becomes marginal.
Your two examples. Cost of basic A6, new £26,000; top of range 4.2 quattro £43,000
Cost of basic Passat £16,000; top of range £21,000.
Value of 10 year old A6 £750 - top of range £500.
Value of 10 year old Passat £750 - top of range £500
Depreciation on A6, £25,250-42,500
on Passat £15,250-20,500
Accordingly, the depreciation on an Audi is TWICE that of a VW.
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Stupid comparison and you know it.
Here are some facts :
6 years ago I bought a Golf GT TDi. Kept it 3 years and lost £9k on it.
3 years ago I bought an Audi A3 TDi Sport. Just sold it 3 years old and lost £9k on it.
But feel free to come up with silly scenarios if it makes you feel better.
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Value of 10 year old A6 £750 - top of range £500. Value of 10 year old Passat £750 - top of range £500
Not sure where you dreamt up those figures either.
Let me help you out old bean - you seem to be struggling.
From glass's :
1999 Audi A6 basic 1.9tdi with 90,000 miles : valued at £2310
1999 VW Passat S 1.9tdi with 90,000 miles : valued at £990
Of course, by the time a car is 10 years old, the extra residual won't offset the price differential when new (obviously) but doing a comparison with cars 10 years very bespoke.
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Thans 4 a briiliant response , the differences sure make difference, perhaps even more reason for mnufctrs. to be more forthcomig, thanx again rugman
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Paint thinkness (much thicker on Audi than VW)
Only relevant / worth paying for if VW paint fades / chips / discolours (it doesn't)
Panel thickness (much thicker on Audi than VW)
Only relevant if VW panels dent easily (they don't)
Level of over Engineering (e.g. 2.0TDi Audi A3 has much wider radiator than 2.0TDi Golf;
Only relevant if VW Golf 2.0 TDIs overheat (they don't)
Level of dealer service (Audi give you A6 courtest car; VW give you a Polo;
Rot. My neighbour gets an A2 when his A4 is in for service.
Equipment (lots of small touches in Audi - e.g. illuminated arm rest; date on clock display; enhanced fuel computer - that you don't get in VW)
That's alright then. Good to see you get something critical for all that extra cash. Do you have any published figures to support your NVH arguments?
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And the M.G.1100, my first car £35.00 Conaught green, leather seats, carpets, gap where the water came through as the bulkhead rusted away from the floor. Happy days.
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The new Mondeo and Mazda 6 share floorpan and diesel engines, I believe
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"The new Mondeo and Mazda 6 share floorpan and diesel engines, I believe"
No they do not.
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Reported last week that BMW and Fiat will be sharing development of the next Mini/Punto/Mito platform. Although Mini appears to be profitable (at those prices it should) it's still not selling in enough numbers to cover development costs.
Of course, the modern classic is the Vauxhall/Opel Insignia where now just the roundel badge changes
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"The new Mondeo and Mazda 6 share floorpan and diesel engines I believe" No they do not.
The previous Mondeo and Mazda 6 were very closely related; however, the current Mondeo is based on a new platform, while the current 6 is a lightly revised, reskinned version of the old one (at least according to what I've read).
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Thanx ur right there was an MG, also i think there was a Vanden Plass, so thats six, I wonder if theres any more, take care.
rugman
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Holden/Vauxhall/Chevrolet/Opel is a common one - local morons debadge and rebadge their opels as Vauxhalls...
I had a chev commodore, which was sold on the same floor, at the same price, as the opel version back in the early 80s here.
Mazda/Ford here was synonymous.
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The same thing is happening in the field (boom,boom) of agri.tractors.Ford New Holland tractors are Fiat under the skin.
Electronic equipment and white goods are also rife with clones.
Development of new technology,which seems to have an increasingly short life before it`s superseeded makes this inevitable.
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Badge engineering is far a more sophisticated art than it was in the glory days of BMC, Rootes and the rest; 30 years ago a couple of chrome badges, a clock in the dashboard or a vinyl roof clinched the move from Hillman to Singer or Morris to Wolseley(or across the pond, Chevy to Buick, Ford to Lincoln,...)
And yet sister marques under French or Italian corporate umbrellas always kept separate identities and appealed to different types of motorist and never seemed to "clash". A driver with Alfa Romeo or Citroën in his blood would never regard a similarly engined Lancia or Peugeot as hewn from the same rock.
Nowadays, convincing a car buyer to "trade up" to an Audi rather than a VW is a marketing exercise focusing on image, lifestyle, aspirations.. When did you last see an Audi advert that actually talked about the car?
The "Ficha Técnica" of my Focus ECOnetic 1.6 - a sort of "birth certificate" issued to new cars in Spain - states clearly: "Motor Peugeot 1560 cc". But who doesn't know that?
And when I have saved up for my first Jag I will, of course, pop into the local TATA dealer.... :-)
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Nissan and Renault now share engines and gearboxes, alot of Nissan components are now made by Renault, door lock actuators for example.
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Hi scrap metal, thanx 4 ur input; The nissan van I saw was actually a Kangoo (renault), completly identical apart from badging. I think they are sharing more than just components. I hear that mid range vans from vauxall are renaults!!!! take care . Rugman
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>...lots of small touches in Audi - e.g. illuminated arm rest...
So your typical Audi buyer is someone who has to look before resting his arm? A crude expression concerning buttocks, both hands and a map springs to mind. Please tell me you made this one up!
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My dads K reg Astra has the date in the clock display, so I wouldnt boast about having it on a current Audi!!
It does amaze me the rubbish people come up with for buying a premium brand version of the same car - its because you like the image and your shallow thats all, admit it now and retain your dignity rather than arguing your car displays the date. Hehe
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My dads K reg Astra has the date in the clock display
Could be wrong, but wasn't Vauxhall one of the first companies to display the external temperature on the stereo / clock display in all their mainstream cars?
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I think it was just about universal in Vauxhalls: presumably it was cheaper to fit the same unit to all models whatever the specification.
I remember a friend of ours had an early Corsa, badged 'Merit' - which meant bog-standard, and certainly a long way short of distinction. It had the aforesaid outside temperature reading, but no bidet (rear wash-wipe) despite a near-vertical rear end on this 5-door version. Economics, not practicalities, dictated that particular specification.
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"Paint thickness (much thicker on Audi than VW)"
Err no.... thickness is dependent on paint type, model, destination market etc. One of the problems Audi had was the TT - paint due to all the different materials used in construction. Having managed a body shop all VAG cars have two things (1) is hard paint.. (2) Is that paint thickness between 119 -151 microns measured on the line.
"Panel thickness (much thicker on Audi than VW)"
Err no.... thickness is dependent on model type, i.e convertible saloon etc. One of the success Audi had was to introduce Aluminium in car construction ie A8 or A2 no one could ever ague that VAG used thin panel till the current polo.
"Level of over Engineering (e.g. 2.0TDi Audi A3 has much wider radiator than 2.0TDi Golf; more complex suspension; better engineered engine mountings; less NVH)"
The floor plans will have the biggest effect but a Skoda Octavia Classic has over 60% the same components as an Audi A4 estate at £29K. One thing VAG do well is badge engineering ? very few components are Audi only or Skoda only probably trim would be the area of differentiation.
Leave you with one thought . Skoda consistently beats all of it?s family in product, service and value awards.
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Thanks for your words paul 1, if you straiten and paint you know the truth. I guess if youve paid mega bucks over the top you gotta justify it somehow!!! Shakespeare comes to mind, "Me thinks he doth protest too Much" cheers rugman
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Not many people know that the forthcoming "small" Rolls Royce shares its floorpan and suspension with the revised Fiat Panda and both cars will be built alongside each other in the factory at Tychy in Poland.
The Roller will use a bored and stroked version of the Fiat 1.4 turbo engine.
Connolly hides will be replaced by "Polski" brand leather seats using pigskins left over from salami sausage production.
Oh 'eck, it's not April 1st, sorry.
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The rubber under-spoiler strip for the Skoda Fabia is the same as used on the Seat Cupra - but it's actually cheaper to buy one from a Seat dealer than from Skoda (£15 difference in price)
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