An uncle who has just retired has surprised us all by announcing that he is looking at a BMW after almost 20 years of Audi ownership.
He currently has a 3 year old A4 diesel and is stricken by a two year old 320d M Sport saloon with low mileage and leather seats.
He is dithering because here and on other websites, there are conflicting comments on the BMW. Reports of rough rides and tyre noise with run flat tyres, door handles falling off and premature clutch failures. Trade reviews on the other hand, state that is simply the best car available in its class.
He has had trouble free motoring with his Audis and although the trade reviews for both for the A4 and the A3 Sportback, which his wife would prefer, are not as glowing as for the BMW, the reports from owners tell a different story. Add to this he could get a newer A4 or A3 for the same price as the BMW, I think he should stick with Audis, opinions from anyone with experience of either or both would be welcome.
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It would be the 3 Series for me every time I'm afraid.
If it's the older E46 model then the only critical item likely to fail at some point in the car's life is the Swirl Flaps in the manifold requiring a replacement engine so it's recommended to change the manifold every 50 - 60K or get a damn good warranty.
If it's the newer 3 Series then I don't have any experience I'm afraid but I would still say that after so many years of driving Audis a change would probably be most welcome as they are a totally different car.
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Can't comment on the Audi, however I have a 2007 320d Touring (van) in SE spec.
I would agree with the rough ride (surely the M sport can only be worse?) which can manifest itself with the car 'hopping' sideways if you hit a rough patch on a bend.
The clutch and gearbox are ridiculously heavy (hey it's a 'sports car').
The runflats are awful.
It has the 'faddy' push button START/STOP system (why?) which has also become a bit of a failure point due to the steering lock solenoid sticking on some cars (not mine - yet).
Runflat system is rubbish.
It isn't that frugal - 40 mpg is average for me (I don't thash it and do a far bit on the M'ways).
Tyre choice is quite important, I just had to have 4 Michelins replaced because they couldn't be balanced and made the car even more dire to drive.
It sounds like a tractor at idle.
It feels smaller inside (for the driver) than the E46 it replaced (IMHO).
The indicator / wiper controls are the result of a technical dude at BMW coming up with a solution that needed a problem - waste of time. (It's a BMW, who needs 'em).
The Dakota leather is easily marked / scratched / worn.
The Climate Control / two zone thing is rubbish.
Oh and did I mention the runflat tyres are rubbish?
I do however think the press open and hold it on the remote and all windows open - and close when pressing and holding the button is Ace.
Oh and the standard CD player plays MP3s from a CD.
Tyres are rubbish all the same.
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Thanks Oilyman, you've confirmed my thoughts, yet the August 2008 edition of one motoring magazine (how does that work?) states "Quite simply the best compact executive car of the moment. Brilliant to drive, strong on image"
I have seen all the points you raise mentioned elsewhere except I think you forgot to mention the tyres.
I'm off to gang up on Uncle and with the help of his wife, hopefully change his mind.
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"Quite simply the best compact executive car of the moment. Brilliant to drive strong on image"
I think that basically translates as "will do oversteer; has a BMW badge on the nose" :-)
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I think you should be congratulating Uncle as he's realised that the former objectionable BMW drivers are now driving Audis, and doesn't want to be associated with them.
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Whilst I can see why your uncle is attracted to a 320, I think the Sport model must be the wrong spec. for the vast majority of uncles out there.
An SE would be far more comfortable and uncle-centric, but would still have problematic tyres.
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Uncle probably just wants a change. But I hope he has a good run in a 320d as they aren't for everyone: for example I couldn't get comfortable, and didn't like the gearchange on any of the three examples I tried (I would call it obstructive; journalists, mostly young males who always rate a BMW before an Audi, would call it meaty).
Generally you have to concentrate hard to get the best out of a BMW, whereas an Audi better suits a relaxed style of driving. Uncle is possibly seeking to revisit his youth, and good luck to him.
Edited by Avant on 19/06/2008 at 01:21
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I have now covered 1500 miles in a BMW after 15 years with Audi. I have a 325D SE after three A6s, the last of which was a 2.8 Quattro. All my cars are autos.
The ride on the SE with the 17inch wheels is much more supple than that of the Sport with the 18s which I test drove and felt to be harsh. It is much more supple than the ride of my last A6. I can?t identify with the comment that the run flats are awful. I found them twitchy on first driving but either they or I have settled down and it is not something I notice any more. My car is shod with Dunlops.
I think the economy is brilliant. I consistently get 35mpg in stop/start commuter traffic. In the same conditions in the A6 I would get about 21mpg. Haven?t had a long run to check the extra urban consumption yet.
I t does sound like a tractor at (cold) idle. This may not prove to be a significant issue for those owners who do not spend very much time standing outside in the cold listening to the engine. No pedestrian has yet complained to me about it. Inside it is a refined as any car I have had, as you might expect at 40mph/1000rpm in sixth gear. In the lower gears it offers rush with hush to 80mph and there is rarely much point in exceeding 3000rpm except for housekeeping purposes.
For such a small exterior it feels very roomy inside. Only slightly less room than on the A6. So far the leather has shown no signs of wear and to my eye the car still looks new after a wash and hoover. The climate control works for me. Turn on the A/C and it gets cold. Turn it off and it stabilises at ambient or selected temperature.
To my ear the standard audio is truly awful and no feat of spin can disguise it. If he?s anything of a muso make sure he gets one with the hi-fi upgrade. The USB audio allows connection to an iPod.
The cancel function of the indicators is a bit quirky. It has been pointed out previously that they also offer ?standard? functionality so it?s difficult to see much room for complaint.
I didn?t know it had a press and hold feature on the remote which opened the windows. Must try that in these summery days.
It?s possible that the operation of the switch gear is marginally less slick than on the Audis. But marginal is the word.
The bottom line for me is that I?m happy I made the switch in the circumstances.
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I test drive a 320 M Sport, last march. I really wanted to buy the car. There was absolutely no way I could have lived with the run flat tyres. It killed the deal. (You can't change them for 'normal' ones either)
Edited by midlifecrisis on 19/06/2008 at 14:40
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I test drive a 320 M Sport run flat tyres. It killed the deal. (You can't change them for 'normal' ones either)
Not even by getting different wheels mlc?
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Was looking to go from Audi to BMW myself. Had a 330D M-sport on loan for a few days and these are my thoughts :
GOOD
- Engine (3.0d) was superb. Very smooth, lovely noise when warm. Not too bad when cold.
- RWD handling when pushing it was mucho fun
DISLIKES
- Push to start (pointless idea)
- Dash (very basic looking for a £40k car)
- Boot space (less practical than current A3 sportback, but in fairness it was a saloon versus hatchback - although the A3 is a smaller class car)
- Rear seat room (no bigger than A3)
- Audio (appalling quality and far worse than Audi)
HATED
- i-drive (why oh why oh why)
- Indicators (why oh why oh why oh why oh why)
- Ride when doing anything other than oversteer on-the-edge-nutter manouvres (that said, it was M-sport so expected it)
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I test drive a 320 M Sport last march. I really wanted to buy the car. There was absolutely no way I could have lived with the run flat tyres. It killed the deal. (You can't change them for 'normal' ones either)
You most certainly CAN change them for normal ones.
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>> I test drive a 320 M Sport last march. I really wanted to buy the >> car. There was absolutely no way I could have lived with the run flat tyres. >> It killed the deal. (You can't change them for 'normal' ones either) You most certainly CAN change them for normal ones.
That's not what I've been told. And both BMW and my insurance company said a big no,no!
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There are things about ?the ultimate driving machine? which do infuriate me.
With the auto box there are effectively four modes. D, S and manual over-rides of each of these. Unless it has eluded me (a possibility, admittedly) there is no way of telling the current gear except by changing manually to another one, at which point a display appears. In the A6 selecting Tip mode automatically revealed the current cog. It might become less of an issue when the car is fully run in and the full rev range can be used. At the moment, however, it carries with it the risk of over-revving the engine.
And there seems to be no way of reverting from Sn (where n is an integer >=1 and <=6) to S without first moving the lever back to D and then back again to S. By this I mean that in S you can manually over ride, say, to S3. Having done that, you are then obliged either to manually shift all day or to move the clunky lever back into to D. Why no way of going directly back from Sn to S?
On writing this it does occur to me that these issues are distinguishable from very serious problems indeed but I?d be delighted if someone could point out that they?re just an oversight on my part and enlighten me.
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So far the leather has shown no signs of wear and to my eye the car still looks new after a wash and hoover.
I have seen BMWs with 150k plus miles where the leather looks as good as new. Don't know if that will continue to apply to the current crop of cars.
The climate control works for me. Turn on the A/C and it gets cold. Turn it off and it stabilises at ambient or selected temperature.
Can you elaborate why you turn it off?
I didn?t know it had a press and hold feature on the remote which opened the
windows. Must try that in these summery days.
On all the cars I have had for the last 25 years which had electric windows, you could open/close windows using the remote.
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Can you elaborate why you turn it off?
Sure, running it needlessly is wasteful.
There are long stretches of the year in the frozen north where no assistance at all is required to cool the interior of the car.
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typo correction : On all the cars I have had for the last 15 years ..
Sure, running it needlessly is wasteful.
I will link some recent backroom discussion later when I have a bit more time.
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Sure, running it needlessly is wasteful.
see recent discussion and links at
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=63...8
Apart from the minimal or insignificant effect on fuel consumption reported, there is an additional factor to think of - see the oldest link there which is from 2001
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=449&v=f
Re: Vectra A/C - John Slaughter Tue 10 Apr 01 08:08
"The big safety benefit of a/c comes in colder, wet weather. Because the chiller dehumidifies the air, it dramatically improves the speed at which windows are demisted. Get into the car on a wet day and with full heat combined with a/c and the screen starts to clear almost immediately. This ability to quickly clear misted windows and keep them that way all year round is a huge safety bonus, and therefore is well worth having. Don' think a/c is only used with the temperture control turned to cold. However, I have to say this is an RTFM issue! Also, there is a safety benefit in being comfortable in the car year round - there's nothing like being hot and bothered to ruin concentration."
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>>Because the chiller dehumidifies the air, it dramatically improves the speed at which windows are demisted.>>
Not in dispute.
Then when the windows are demisted switch it off? Because it is not needed, or needed only intermittently?
The frozen north is not a notably hot and humid area. Today, for example, it is 17deg C max and relative humidity is 64%. Tomorrow's humidty is forecast to be 42%. Running the A/C permanently in these conditions adversely affects performance, economics and the environment.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/06/2008 at 19:58
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Running the A/C permanently in these conditions adversely affects performance >> economics and the environment.
Err if it's the temperature delta is nil or negative then the Climate won't run the A/C. The compressor has a clutch on it for that reason. It won't make any difference to the performance, economy or environment. I sell Data centre solutions based on exactly these criteria!
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I have been an Audi man for nearly 6 years now, but have had several BM's as company cars. Neither marque has given me any significant mechanical problems, but I would say that Audi are showing evidence in their latest cars of money saving. I think my 04 plate A4 was better built than my 07 plate (B7) A4 is.
However, that said, I think BM's are now overpriced for what they are, and the latest 3 series is a backward step from the previous model in styling, and what I hate about BM's now is how they force you to use these stupid run-flat tyres !
I think BMW are arrogant to expect people to pay so much more (new) for the equivalent 3 series than the equivalent model A4, it used to only be about £50 difference a couple of years ago.
Edited by Roly93 on 19/06/2008 at 16:42
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I think BMW are arrogant to expect people to pay so much more (new) for the equivalent 3 series than the equivalent model A4 it used to only be about £50 difference a couple of years ago.
Would you say the same thing about Mercedes, ie. it is arrogant for C class to be more expensive compared to an equivalent 3 series?
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snipquote!!Would you say the same thing about Mercedes ie. it is arrogant for C class to be more expensive compared to an equivalent 3 series?
YES, considering it is also a worse car !
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 20/06/2008 at 13:48
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BMW and Merc make good cars, but the pricing is optimistic.
I have a Lexus IS250. At the time, the base model IS250 costs the same as a 320i SE despite being better equipped, having two extra cylinders and a lot more power.
(The mags didn't notice this as they compared the IS250 to the 325)
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I've driven an 08 320d coupe in SE trim, and thought it was rather lovely actually. Ride is firm, but not unacceptably so, excellent handling, great driving position, and the construction quality was flawless. Even the bum-basic looking (I agree with whoopwhoop) dash is far more appealing in the flesh than in the photos.
I will be quite honest, I hate the image of a BMW. I didn't want to like the car at all. But even to my cynical eyes, there was a 'rightness' to this car which I just couldn't ignore. It's so complete. Gutsy (if not very smooth) engine, great driving position, brilliant gearbox, well weighted, slick controls, fabulous handling, a feeling of mechanical unburstability, and all-day comfort. What more could you really need from a car?
When I saw it in pictures, I wondered how the heck it could ever be worth 28k. Once I drove it, I understood why. We often debate what is meant by quality, but this car oozed it. All the controls were weighted just so, the panel gaps were tight and even, there was no shunt or play in the driveline and there was a feeling of precision engineering and tight tolerances even in the details.
I have never had the same feeling from an Audi A4 that driving this car gave me.
Cheers
DP
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I can't comment on the Audi experience as I've never owned one but I've recently bought a 320d M sport after a C Class 270 and Honda Accord.
I really like the car, more so than any other I've owned. Everyone will have a view on how it looks, is it worth the money and what about the image etc but I would definitely recommend it.
It does have a firm ride but the handling and body control is really very good. Mine has the 17" wheels with 225/45 & 255/40 run flat tyres front and back. After a lot of experimenting, a uniform 32.5lbs pressure (cold) all round makes a huge difference to the ride and handling. I know this will sound odd, but go a pound over or under this and the ride/handling goes off.
I don't have I - drive so the dash looks uncluttered and all the controls fairly regular to use. The indicators work well for me, light touch for 3 flashes, firm touch for constant, touch again in same direction to cancel.
The engine's a little noisy first thing but quiet on the move, pulls well from 1500 but happy to rev past 4500 if you must. On a steady trip (80 ish) from Cardiff to Ross I averaged (according to the computer) 57MPG, normally through town and mixed driving it sits around 43 and the lowest I've recorded over a couple of days mixed driving is 36. Obviously it will go lower than this - I think low to mid 40's is a realistic expectation.
The gearbox needs a firm hand as it often feels a bit sticky and the stereo sound quality is very poor.
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