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Google for "hide car keys".
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I keep my car keys, wallet and a rather expensive watch in a pillow on my bed so atleast they have to virtually wake me up to get them, if they even know to look there.
Its just common sense, no need for the police to advise.
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I'd rather have a burglar take the keys from the mantlepiece in the dining room and leave that invite them into the bedroom to wake me up to hand over the keys. If they are already in the house, then you're going to hand them over anyway. Its a big difference from keeping them somewhere they can't hook them from the letterbox.
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I have insurance for the things that don't really matter.
I'm not waking up to X number of determined (perhaps drug abusing) thieves demanding with menaces the keys to what are essentially disposable items. If they have the guts to get past the Doberman that's enough for me.
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A while back I had a sat nav stolen from the car (while parked on our driveway).
I reported it to the police, not so much becuase I expected that anything could be done about it, but rather to get it recorded 'on the system'.
On the same day as I reported it they came round to check for fingerprints and later that evening a couple of PCs came round to take a statement (at a time convienient to me).
The PCs were very pleasant and I was happy that they did everything that could be expected.
However, what really annoyed me was the amount of money that they are wasting on the 'follow up' service - lots of victim support and surveys. I had lots of letters and the other night they (not the police, some research company) called me to ask about my experience (it took 20mins).
I guess its all about those government targets again.
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To be honest, I don't see that police officers need to be tied up if the follow up visit is 24 hours or more after the crime. Surely this could be done by civilians, leaving the police to do a little more crime prevention and law enforcement.
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Similar thing happened to my colleague last Friday.
Woken at 4:30 by the dog (BIG German Shepherd) barking the house down, tearing downstairs towards rapidly escaping crims - who unfortunately managed to get the door between them and the dog.
They didn't manage to get his keys - but did get his mobile 'phone, wifes bag etc, etc.
'Phoned the police - they turned up at 08:30, obviously a special offer on at the local donought shop.
He was told that they had taken another late model German car that same night two roads away, it was a known gang and the MO was always the same.
Device through UPVC door letter box, turn the key, drop the handle and in. Get keys, take car.
What I'd like to know is why the hell didn't they.
a) Turn up and take details sooner, hey the crims could even be hiding in the locale.
b) Entrap the scum.
c) Inform the local rag, community, neighbours etc to ensure that others don't become victims. They seem to be able to inform us that crime stats are down, streets are safe, why can't they do some pro-active crime prevention and let people know that it happens and how to avoid it happening to others.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/06/2008 at 11:25
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a) Perhaps they were dealing with something else? The chance of a pro criminal loitering in the area are nil. They would be miles away before you finished your 999 call.
b) And they would do this how?
c) Thats what Neighbourhood Watch does - Are you a member? Does your local force put out emails? What about your liaison PC or PCSO?
Edited by adverse camber on 06/06/2008 at 10:56
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b) And they would do this how?
How about stick a late model, high spec A4, A5, M3 etc on the drive of a 'bait house' in their target area (it's happened a lot recently in the same area) then ensure that if anyone tries to take it they are caught.
c) Thats what Neighbourhood Watch does - Are you a member? Does your local force put out emails? What about your liaison PC or PCSO?
I am - not sure about colleague though, I'll have to ask.
Local plod to me used to live in village amongst everyone and knew all. Police Authority sold house, plod moved on and was replaced by a remote plod turning up once a week in a van in middle of week in afternoon - when most are at work. Crime rate now on rise.
I'm not sure about the neighborhood watch thing though, emails again are a cop out (pardon the pun), too easily used (in all areas of work) as an excuse - "I sent an email". There is no substitute for face to face communications, that way you KNOW that the message has been received and taken on board.
Trust me - this isn't a rant.
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Device through UPVC door letter box turn the key drop the handle and in. Get keys take car.
So he left the house door keys in the lock..... may as well leave the car keys in the ignition next time to save them the problem?
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What do you do when the house is on fire and full of smoke and the locked door is your only exit? We used to leave the key in the lock.
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Have to say, if this is as described, it's indefensible. Someone has made a boo boo here. Not getting the vrm, not beng circulated on PNC. It's all basic stuff.
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That response was to the original poster...not to Oilymans rant!!
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My local police force (Staffordshire) went from second worst to second best performing force in twelve months. Plenty of pats on the back and 'didn't we do wells'. Does anyone out there actually believe that this is possible?
Might be me being cynical but I don't think that local people really felt that good about the performance.
Investment that could have been used for front line policing has been diverted to media and performance management.
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In today's environment, if someone wants to blow up a plane in mid air, he can do it.
Stealing a car is much easier than that and there is not enough punishment to retard thugs.
When we read on newspapers that magistrates are advising police not to put anyone in jail you can very well imagine thugs are also reading the same news.
Most of the houses in Britain have absolutely no security at all. A wooden door in front with a standard lock. Accessible windows on ground floor. A broken fence on back with a glass door leading to leaving room. Anyone with a hammer can break into the house. Flats are probably slightly better.
In some countries in the world, if a thieve is caught by residents, he is given some "public beating" before calling police.
Here, you can't touch a thug (if you do, you'll violate his human right and will have criminal record against YOU).
With a downgrading economy, rising population, binge drinking, rubbish governement and criminal-friendly law - these incidents will happen more and more!
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Here you can't touch a thug (if you do you'll violate his human right and will have criminal record against YOU).
Be that as it may, but I still have a cudgel near to hand in the bedroom. I wouldn't go down without a fight if a scally disturbed my sleep.
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"Be that as it may, but I still have a cudgel near to hand in the bedroom. I wouldn't go down without a fight if a scally disturbed my sleep."
In my younger days I took on the hoods - I made three citizen's arrests in various situations. I'm nearly thirty years older now, and I have a wife and three kids to take care of, so I'll stand back. No insurance co. I've heard of will reduce a payout because you didn't fight a determined burglar on the premises. My dog will put off 97.5% of them. The other 2.5% are not worth it.
The Police might be inept at following up burglaries, but I don't want them to be investigating a murder.
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As to whether you are charged for wacking a scrote you find mooching around inside of your property in the middle of the night, that depends entirely on the exact words you use to plod when they say to you, "what happened here then ?" There are seven words you should use that will ensure that no charges whatsoever are brought against you. I am sure that plod members of this forum know only too well what these are ! Plod when writing down your statement of events must write down EXACTLEY, word for word what you say to him regarding the event and providing you use the "magic" seven words, you are bomb proof ! This useful snippet was given to me by family members who are themselves...plod ! Before the rush from all and sundry to "share" I think that this should be down to any plod members of this forum. But from personal experience I know that it does work !
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"When we read on newspapers that magistrates are advising police not to put anyone in jail you can very well imagine thugs are also reading the same news."
I work with magistrates and it's not their choice to reduce jail sentences, they are being told to avoid custodial sentences because the spaces are not there.
And it's the Crown Prosecution Service that decides what charges are to be brought - they will often go for a lesser offence (which carries a lower sentence, probably non-custodial) to secure a conviction.
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Have a look at my post on credit card fraud a couple of minutes ago. Not a rant. Just the facts.
Edited by Optimist on 06/06/2008 at 11:56
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You hide the keys, and your family will probably get sliced up for it - not such a clever idea.
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You hide the keys and your family will probably get sliced up for it - not such a clever idea.
agree 100%.
If scum want your car, especially if it a desirable model (they do nick to order), then better off leaving the keys somewhere easily accesible IN CASE they happen to get into the house.
The fact that they are prepared to break doors/windows to get in and get the keys means they mean business.
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being an ex-copper myself i usually get worked up at the cop-bashing that goes on but recently that all changed.
my dads car was hit and damaged while parked outside their house the guilty party left paint transfer on my dads car, he called the police and reported it, they arrived 3 days later to take a look.
i was able using the paint transfer as a reference find the car involved and observe the relevant damage (the car was an unusal colour which made life alot easier) again the police were imformed and said they would speak to the owner and request that costs were met or they would take action.
4 weeks later they still havent spoken to the people involved and the dealing officer wont reply to my dads calls, in my days on the force this would never have happened and dont even get me started on plastic bobbies (PCSO's)
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" You hide the keys, and your family will probably get sliced up for it...."
Without wanting to rake over old coals, do a search on "Both Cars Stolen last night".
I had this experience and boy, was I glad I found the keys easily .......
Nothing, and I mean nothing bar a loaded gun would have stopped thugs taking both cars and many valuable possessions.
jdc
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About two years ago in Leicester I witnessed an attack on a youth. The lad, a tall asian youth, was walking about 10 yards in front of me of a fairly quiet street at 1pm in the afternoon. An old Fiat Punto pulled up and four big asian lads got out and within the space of about 20 seconds had beaten and knocked the pedestrian to the ground, unconscious, with blood all over his head. I was astonished and shocked! The Fiat sped off, but I got the colour, make model and registration.
A lady passer-by attended to the lad and I called for a police and ambulance. I told the police operator that I had all the details and gave my mobile number. Several days later I'd still not heard, so called again on the non-emergency number, explained which incident it was and left all my details including home and work landlines. Never heard any more about it. I think I was probably the only witness. Does make you wonder what is going on.
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Just got word that the car has been found sans pretty much everything. Only identifiable by it's dental records.
As has been said I'm glad I slept through it as I don't know how I would have reacted, people seems to think that you could wander down stairs, bop the little scrote on the nose and wait for the Bib to turn up quick sharp.
I'm sure anyone who robs houses for a living is going to be prepared do whatever it takes to keep himself out of prison.
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krs one
I hope that you're OK and this doesn't destroy your faith in humanity. Most people are decent law abiding citizens.
H
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Yes, Halmer, but there's a whole sub-species that are not and until the coppers actually go out and fight crime and there is certainty of punishment it is very difficult to retain the faith you speak of.
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there are some noticeably ill informed comments on here. May I suggest those that think they 'know the score' contact their local police, easily done by the internet, phone book, directory enquiries etc... and request a visit to patrol for the day, with their local officers. Then you will see the truth with your own eyes, rather than listen to inaccurate anecdotal evidence or make presumptions from ignorance.
Contrary to some people's belief, there are not vast armies of police officers sat around eating doughnuts, who can't be bothered to respond to the public.
the reason why some of these calls take days to deal with...is quite simply the fact there are too many calls to be dealt with versus the amount of officers available to take those calls....the numbers don't add up
in the London area for example, burglaries are dealt with solely by civilian Scene of Crime Officers (SOCOs)...which is not popular with the public at all...and to be fair being a London resident myself, i can see why, we pay enough in taxes....yet, I see no other option, there's not enough staff to go around.
I see day in day out response team officers run ragged trying their best to achieve often not enough. Similar is true of other depts as well.
There are many reasons for the problems, probably not suitable for a motoring forum, but if anyone is that interested i'd be prepared to respond via e-mail, through a Mod.
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I don't know howI would have reacted people seems to think that you could wander down stairs bop the little scrote on the nose and wait for the Bib to turn up quick sharp.
I have a 7ft wall round my house. Anyone on my property has to work pretty damn hard to get in. Anyone WITHIN the house itself gets blown away - I have security bars on each window, and security gates on each of the three doors.
If he is in, he's up to no good, so he gets capped (oh, and I aim centrally) ... no questions asked, as he might be armed himself.
Despite our constitution, which is there to offer the most human rights to the most people, most homeowners adopt the same attitude.
Sorry, to get through the above, you MUST be looking for a bit more than nicking the DVD and phones.
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Westpig , I appreciate what you are saying but the fact is the most frustrating part of the whole thing has been my dealing with the Police. If they can't turn up when they say their going to then let me know, and I can get on with my life.
I spent 14 hours waiting in for the police to arrive.
I told them I would be happy to report it down at the station, but was told that that was not possible.
I mean I know they won't capture the crims or retrieve my stolen goods, so why waste my time trying to appear to do things properly?
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krs one,
personally i cannot argue with anything you've said, in fact i'd be thinking the same myself. It's just that I know personally how impossible it is to deal with.
What's happening with your case is that no doubt domestic burglary in your force area is a priority, so the senior managers will have decreed that it cannot be telephone crimed and the reason for that is to ensure an officer attends personally, to try to look for forensic opportunities, speak with neighbours and you etc to try for leads. Where that fails miserably is when the control room run out of staff to send, so no one shows. Your call will then be re-scheduled and hopefully you'll be rung to explain why (doesn't always happen) and you're asked when you're next in...at which time it's busy again and so this whole charade continues. It often goes on for days... i deal with complainants all the time on this subject, yet there's absolutely NOTHING i can do about it, there's not enough staff to go around.
I agree very much with your comment about not wasting your time trying to appear to do things properly. No one is willing to admit the whole set up is stuffed and they try to 'get it right' but often end up robbing Peter to pay Paul.
What is really frustrating though is when my staff cop an earful when in reality all they are doing is their best. Ho Hum...there's a saying down here in this Force "if you can't take a joke, don't join the job", no idea if it's country wide, but it ought to be...:-)
Edited by Westpig on 06/06/2008 at 16:26
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Local plod, last time the house was burgled - in the old premises, sans wall and alarm - asked the question: Are you insured?
What difference does that make??????
But their attitude seems to be 'you have incurred a loss, you'll get it back ...so why worry?'
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/09/2008 at 11:15
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Westpig - OT, but I had my shed emptied of garden power tools etc. I thought I knew who was behind it, and I was right, it turned out. The PC who came spent nearly 5 hours (arrived 20.45, left 01.25) to take a ten page statement from me and a three page statement from my daughter.
Even another Thames Valley PC was amazed! He made no attempt to go to the address for the miscreants, which would have led him to the perpetrator, and prevented anther ten similar crimes that he then committed.
I was then bombarded with Victim Support paperwork for months. The guy was eventually nabbed, pleaded guilty, got a non-custodial despite it being his second adult appearance for similar offences, and is still at large.
And people wonder....
I was not told it had gone to court, had to fight to find out the sentence, was totally left out to dry.
My solution - buy a big dog. It's worked so far.
Edited by oldnotbold on 06/06/2008 at 16:29
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I know who does 90% of the burglaries...near and far. Unfortunately, I can't go and have a look in their houses or sheds because the law states that I have to have physical evidence. The number of times people have said to "I know who's done it", knowing and proving are two different things.
Not to worry. Gordon has stripped 24hr response teams to create your 'safer neighbourhood' teams. You can have your local bobbies telephone number, as long as you only want him 9x5 mon-fri. Oh! And 'crime' isn't their remit, so they won't come to your burglary anyway.
Before I moved to the motorway, I had four 24hr response officers to Police 500 square miles. They never had a meal break and worked hours of unpaid overtime. They simply can't be in ten places at once.
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If there aren't enough bodies to do the jobs then surely employing some more would alleviate the problem.
Is it just a myth that a good percentage of them retire at 55 on a nice fat pension to Spain.
Or is that just my experience?
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If there aren't enough bodies to do the jobs then surely employing some more would alleviate the problem. Is it just a myth that a good percentage of them retire at 55 on a nice fat pension to Spain. Or is that just my experience?
You want more employed..complain to your MP.
After 30 years in this job..I will have earned my 'nice fat pension' (which I pay 11% of my wages towards). And what 'experience' do you have??
Sorry, but you seem to have a sizeable chip on your shoulder.
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After 30 years in this job..I will have earned my 'nice fat pension' ..........
What percentage of your pensionable salary will your pension be, and what is the relationship between your pensionable salary and your actual salary?
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Is it just a myth that a good percentage of them retire at 55 on a nice fat pension to Spain.
It's not a myth, all police officers can retire after 30 yrs service, (since April 2006 that is now 35 yrs) whenever that is. You can't join until you are 18.5 yrs old but nowadays that is unusual as they prefer more mature applicants. Can't see the relevance myself, it's a busy stressful job at times and the figures for life expectancy after retirement are dreadful.
Can't comment on the exodus to Spain, but presumably no one is going to begrudge anyone moving to wherever they fancy when they're retired, will they?
Don't forget that the 'nice fat pension' has top be paid for and is currently about 12% of your salary. How many people are prepared to that much a month into their pension schemes? When times are good and there's plenty of money about, the private sector packages are better than the public sector ones. When times are bad the public sector ones all of a sudden look more attractive, yet you're never going to get rich in the public sector, not in the Old Bill anyway.... and there's the chance of a knife in the gullet or worse along the way.
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"When times are good and there's plenty of money about, the private sector packages are better than the public sector ones. "
From my experience private sector pensions are never as good as public sector ones. Unless you work for yourself, you have little hope of retiring before 65, and on not that big a pension.
Regarding danger, the police do a dangerous job, but you have a truncheon, a radio, and usually a colleague. My late mother was a psychiatric nurse and was attacked by a dangerous patient when alone on a ward at night. The cops who turned up told here they would not have been allowed to be on their own with such a person. And of course bus drivers and others get attacked.
That said, I don't really begrudge the police their pension. I don't think I could do the job.
Regarding whether or not the police do a good job, as you indicate, we get what we pay for. I suspect there is some political interference which distorts priorities, and some bureaucracy, but due to ignorance, I will stop here!
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Don't forget that the 'nice fat pension' has top be paid for and is currently about 12% of your salary. How many people are prepared to that much a month into their pension schemes?
I had to pay the maximum allowable 15% of my salary to get a decent pension, and my pension was calculated on a "pensionable salary" (averaged over the last two years of my employment) of my actual salary less an amount equal to the single persons state old age pension. My pension is not index-linked in any way. Some years (but only some) I get a "gratuitous" increase of £20-£30 per annum. My pension was limited by HMRC rules ~ if I became overfunded the excess would have been returned to me less 40% tax.
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MLC - the reason I knew who was behind it was that the miscreants I referred to above had stood on my back door step some two weeks before the raid and implied threats. All that had been reported to TVP before the burglary. I thus had a clear link which was very worthy of following up. By the time it was followed up the burglar had done ten or twelve more. He then got wind of the posse and fled to darkest Cornwall for three months.
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having been involved (as a victim) with police up and down the land, my feedback would be that there is a definite spectrum of quality from different forces, some forces seem significantly better run with more motivated switched on officers than others, the extreme variation is one of the big problems
like the nhs and other problems i think its partly cos the public sector does not have normal improvement to customer pressure cycles, you know in the free market if your service is crap cos the customers go and you have to shut your worst sites and improve the next tier etc, the worst hospitals and police areas have limited motivation to improve, and what incentives they do have are all around very imperfect stats
coppers do get a lot of grief about how bad the service is, but they mostly take it the wrong way, "youve got a chip on ur shoulder" etc, they forget that some of us are squeeky clean (apart from a bit of speeding) - have barged in to help them when theyre getting beaten up - etc etc, and then you wonder why we get cheesed off when our cars get nicked or our wife gets attacked and we get such crap service
its not chip on shoulder time, its harsh realities time
lots of ways of improving things could be rolled out quickly (and yes the senior police would have to convince the politicians) but stuff like + points on a driving licence as well as negative ones would surely help the crap perception of the police
as would short term assignments of folk from other walks of life into the police for say 2 years, some way of empowering honest decent folk who have been sqeeky clean all their life to help out in practical ways etc
police service in some parts of this country is sub 3rd world, thats realism not chip on shoulder
saw a nice car outside just now (motoring link)
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police service in some parts of this country is sub 3rd world thats realism not chip on shoulder
having been in this game for well over 25 years i'd tend to agree with you...BUT...there's nowt the folk at the coal face or in fact the whole colliery, can do about that. You can only work with what you've got.
...and moaning about their pensions is not that helpful...and neither is stating that they're all lazy, inefficient, incompetent etc. I'm not saying there isn't the odd one that might fit some of that description..but there's a whole army of them who work their butts off, every single day.
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If you think you can do any better I'm sure your local Force would welcome you as a Special Constable.
"Fat pensions" are legal (yes legal) entitlements which have their basis in the Police Act 1964 and have recently been modified to make Officers work longer for less (no surprise there then) - they cost the individuals a packet - the reason they are so "generous" are that Officers were perceived to be at risk from disabling injuries, and they spend a lifetime working under restrictions you wouldn't believe, and since when was it offensive to anyone to emigrate - If they do, I bet its because they're sick to death of the meely mouthed whingers the great British public have become, or to steal Lud's excellent description the other day in a different context - tutting mimsers.
I spent a lengthy time this week in custody - it was a Tuesday night, all 16 cells were occupied
between 5pm and midnight when I left. Obviously these criminals had turned up voluntarily as local Officers are far too lazy to arrest them themselves. All I saw were hard working and very professional people working under pressure complying with legally complex situations which is beyond the comprehension of many of my qualified colleagues.
I was stopped on the way home tonight on my bike - I had pinged an ANPR, I was dealt with utmost courtesy and efficiency - everything resolved with a phone call. They even took the proverbial because my Sat Nav showed a "Maximum Speed Achieved" of 97mph on its screen. Police and public have hundreds and thousands of encounters every day most go off without comment, a large proportion are under severe duress, when one or other dies, it still makes the headlines - sometimes the service is bad and understandably so, bearing in mind the idiots they seem to have to deal with and the stupid petty rules thought up by their "betters".
Edited by Pugugly on 06/06/2008 at 19:27
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I'm no pension company actuary but an 11% pension contribution by me on my (reasonable ) salary - paid since the age of 21 - until a projected age of 65 (I wish!) at retirement would not pay anything like the pension a retiring (my neighbour) 55 year old plod will receive - for life.
To claim it's dangerous is fair - but how many other jobs (private sector) are dangerous?
Any minors (ex), lift maintainers, farmers etc that have the same level of public supported retirement pot you could mention?
How many police can REALLY claim to have a dangerous job? Some sure - lots probably not.
Anyway on a car related theme - I saw a nice panda car tonight - Fiesta, Good stripes.
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In my (limited) dealings with the police I have not found them to be particularly efficient, however like nurses and the forces they do appear to enjoy public support.
One thing that often puzzles me is that any criticism of generous private-sector pay or pensions immediately brings about cries of 'politics of envy'. This never seems to happen when public sector pay and pensions are discussed. They seem to be considered a legitimate target. Yet those who do the complaining never seem interested in applying for some of these apparently desirable public sector jobs (the old 'if you can't beat 'em...).
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I agree that the service varies from force to force at least, if not officer to officer.
Metropolitan Police are, in my experience, useless when it comes to vehicle crime. We had a car stolen, and all they were concerned about was trying to sell us a recovery service, even going to lengths to point out that if the car is found, and is stolen again between them notifying us of its whereabouts, and us recovering it, we could be held liable for the consequences. Some years later, we had another car keyed outside another house in the same area, after regularly reporting gangs of youths (many of which we knew the names of) drinking, shouting about, chucking things around, and sitting on car bonnets. I almost keeled over when the sum total of my phone call to the local station was "can't you park the car somewhere else?". So, it's my fault my car was keyed, then? Not theirs for failing to act weeks in advance
Wind forward five years, and we're living in leafy Hampshire. One night, a bunch of local wags decided it would be a laugh to go along the street and steal all the car aerials. The youths were spotted by a neighbour's son who identified them and gave the names to local police. The next day, two sheepish looking youths, accompanied by two officers were dragged door to door with a pile of car aerials, made to apologise, and to return the aerials to their rightful owners. The parents were also given a stiff talking to. We are also currently experiencing some minor anti social behaviour in a nearby car park, and the police are asking people to record registration numbers of cars, and descriptions so that they can take action. A totally different attitude to the Met, who just seem to shrug and say "what can you do?". It's one of the main reasons I got out of London, and wouldn't live there again if you paid me.
Where motorists are concerned, there is a (fairly accurate IMO) perception that we are more likely to receive justice for exceeding the speed limit by a few miles per hour in our own taxed, insured and legally registered car, than some scrote is who has just stolen the same car and exceeds the same limit by a hundred miles per hour, or indeed the chav who hasn't bothered registering or taxing their car for years. I accept however that this is more a failing of the system than the officers who I also accept do a dangerous and largely thankless job.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 09/06/2008 at 12:09
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DP,
Look at it like this. Chap I used to have working on my team in NW London, was top dollar, known to be a 'thief taker' and was always very busy. It was a real loss when for family reasons he transferred to North Devon. On one of his many trips back to the Met, for a court case, a load of us met up for a pint and discussed his new working conditions.
We all laughed when he explained that when he dealt with a case where a yob had kicked off the door mirror of a parked car, he was expected to put an entry in the local paper requesting witnesses etc as part of the investigation... and the reason why we laughed, was because the workload in the Met is such that you'd not even begin to dream of investigating that level of crime, not in a million years. The reality is that crime being reported in London would be 'screened out' before the victim had made it home. There would be no investigation whatsover, none, zilch.
Now of course, in reality, the Devon & Cornwall way of doing things is the correct one isn't it...and why in 4 years time i'll be moving there....however, like most things in life you have to prioritise and deal with the worst stuff first and if you're snowed under with the worst stuff, you won't get near the more minor stuff.
The only real sad thing about this is the public think the problem is laziness, incompetence or don't care attitude that causes it...it isn't...it's incredibly different workloads. I think you'd be horrified if you knew the true issues that are dealt with daily, what is routinely ignored and how few officers there are in most cities or large towns in this country.
Edited by Westpig on 09/06/2008 at 17:47
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DP Look at it like this. Chap I used to have working on my team in NW London was top dollar known to be a 'thief taker' and was always very busy. It was a real loss when for family reasons he transferred to North Devon. On one of his many trips back to the Met for a court case a load of us met up for a pint and discussed his new working conditions.
I left Middlesex in '87 having 'seen it coming' New child etc. and moved to N. Devon. My Old Man was a Met officer for 28 years + 2 national service. They were all good guys and got on with it.
I have worked for an ex met guy who moved here. The young man concerned took no carp and really shook up the establishment. If the scrote didn't listen when he spoke then sparks flew. Much admired but not by some of his own.
Good luck WP. Maybe meet one day.
VBR.........MD
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Westpig,
It makes perfect sense, and of course London has far bigger problems than so-called low level crime. However, for the people who have to deal with this, and the very real implications both financially and on quality of life, it's a real problem.
What I saw in my time in (Greater) London were gangs of youths able to brazenly intimidate and sometimes assault people, as well as damage property and make people's lives an absolute misery with almost total impunity. As you say, this cannot be right, or be allowed to continue.
I accept it's a resourcing issue rather than any personal incompetence or attitude shortcoming on the part of the officers, but that's small consolation when it's you who is on the receiving end of these yobs day in, and day out. In my case, it was a grands worth of damage to a car that I'd worked my backside off for years to pay for (the little darlings also broke the rear wiper off its spindle while they were at it, wrecking the motor and the mounting bracket in the tailgate). This was a humble Ford Fiesta, not a Ferrari.
The other thing this ongoing situation breeds is increasingly desperate people taking the law into their own hands. I saw this on more than one occasion with results that are barely believable in what is supposed to be a developed and rich country.
No disrespect intended though. The police officers I have come into direct contact with directly have always been very professional and clearly are doing a difficult job in near impossible circumstances.
Cheers
DP
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I'm no pension company actuary but an 11% pension contribution by me on my (reasonable) salary - paid since the age of 21 - until a projected age of 65 (I wish!) at retirement would not pay anything like the pension a retiring (my neighbour) 55 year old plod will receive - for life.
The "employer" contribution for Police (and Fire Service) pensions is estimated to be 25%. My company pays 10%, and that's considered generous - 4% or 6% is more usual.
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Someone said >>One thing that often puzzles me is that any criticism of generous private-sector pay or pensions immediately brings about cries of 'politics of envy'. This never seems to happen when public sector pay and pensions are discussed. They seem to be considered a legitimate target. Yet those who do the complaining never seem interested in applying for some of these apparently desirable public sector jobs (the old 'if you can't beat 'em...).>>
Public sector pensions do seem to be quite generous but essentially they are deferred salary.
Lots of people in the public sector earn comparatively little but are compensated for this by having a final salary based pension scheme.
But half, say, of not very much money works out at not very much of a pension.
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Public sector pensions do seem to be quite generous
And have much more generous HMRC limits than private sector pensions.
but essentially they are deferred salary.
We could all say that our pensions are deferred salary.
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The "employer" contribution for Police (and Fire Service) pensions is estimated to be 25%. My company pays 10% and that's considered generous - 4% or 6% is more usual.
My employer ceased to pay anything many years ago after the actuaries decided the pension scheme had a surplus. They (the employer) then found they could (and did) take £16 million of the pension scheme's surplus. Their next step was to reduce the pension scheme's liabilities by closing one of it's factories and making 400 employees redundant when they protested about a planned 10% wage cut. Incidentally, in the 28 years I worked for them a number of people were killed through industrial accidents.
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And now back to motoring please. DD.
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Friends had their marked (post-code on roof in 15" letters) horse-trailer stolen. It was spotted on a site used by people of no fixed abode. They told the police, who explained they had no plans to enter the site to recover it, as the number of officers needed could not be found for such a small value (£2,500) item. They were told to claim on insurance.
Bangs head against wall.
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Friends had their marked (post-code on roof in 15" letters) horse-trailer stolen. It was spotted on a site used by people of no fixed abode. They told the police who explained they had no plans to enter the site to recover it as the number of officers needed could not be found for such a small value (£2 500) item. They were told to claim on insurance. Bangs head against wall.
As the location information was available to the Police would the ins' co.' not wish to press the Police further??
Just a thought.............MD
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Friends had their marked (post-code on roof in 15" letters) horse-trailer stolen. It was spotted on a site used by people of no fixed abode. They told the police who explained they had no plans to enter the site to recover it as the number of officers needed could not be found for such a small value (£2 500) item.
Hard to believe, but I suppose to bean counters it makes sense. Surely the problem with such an attitude is that the police are saying that 'travellers' can do anything they want, and hence it encourages them to become more outrageous and take the wee wee. Not just 'travellers'. Yobs without helmets on motor bikes. Yobs in uninsured cars. Etc.
We once had 'travellers' set up a camp in the works car park. Fortunately the company did defence work, with MOD trucks on site. So enter armed military police, exit 'travellers' PDQ.
Certain words changed
Edited by Webmaster on 10/06/2008 at 01:39
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Hard to believe but I suppose to bean counters it makes sense. Surely the problem with such an attitude is that the police are saying that 'travellers' can do anything they want and hence it encourages them to become more outrageous and take the wee wee. Not just 'travellers'. Yobs without helmets on motor bikes. Yobs in uninsured cars. Etc.
That may be why travellers are called 'do as you likey' in certain circles
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FWIW in my earlier post the term 'travellers' was substituted by the mods for a variant on 'gypsies'. The two groups are quite different, and they were gypsies, not travellers in our works car park. I would appreciate the mods not changing the meaning even if they have to apply their own terms.
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I would appreciate the mods not changing the meaning
As we would appreciate you not triggering the swearfilter in the first place by using a derogatory and offensive term to describe them. Also back in 2007 a gardener was convicted of racially aggravated harassment for using the word. Search www.metro.co.uk for the details.
Webmaster.
ps, and now back to motoring please.
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we would appreciate you not triggering the swearfilter in the first place by using a derogatory and offensive term to describe them. Also back in 2007 a gardener was convicted of racially aggravated harassment for using the word. >>
I think you've just demonstrated, Webmaster, better than any other contribution to this thread why the police get described as "inept" for not pursuing crime: because they're occupying their time with far more serious criminal matters such as this.
Edited by Optimist on 10/06/2008 at 16:45
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As we would [snip] Webmaster.
It is a term which is widely used on the BBC, on several programs in the last year, and elsewhere in print, hence generally accepted.
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As I was saying earlier - and now back to motoring.
And I don't care if it's a term used by the BBC, or anywhere else for that matter. It's not to be used here - END OF.
The Webmasters decision is FINAL.
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If you think you can do any better I'm sure your local Force would welcome you as a Special Constable.
Very good response PU
VBR..........MD
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your local Force would welcome you as a Special Constable.
Interesting. What are the terms and conditions? Are "Specials" indistinguishable from "normal" policemen in every respect?
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Same powers as a police officer, same uniform, same everything. They just don't get paid. You've probably got loads of them out and about in your town centres on a Friday and Saturday night, and haven't noticed.
They don't get paid, but in some areas, particularly shopping centres, employers seem to be giving their staff paid time off to be specials in the local area, as it benefits them. Locally to me there was some talk of a council paying the council tax for anyone who wanted to become a special constable, but that was at election time so I don't know if it would happen.
Very timely, as last week was national volunteers week, apparently.
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/recruitment/specials/
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Same powers as a police officer, same uniform, same everything. They just don't get paid. You've probably got loads of them out and about in your town centres on a Friday and Saturday night, and haven't noticed. >>
Most of us over the age of 21 without a taste for an excess of dodgy lager will not be found anywhere near a town centre on a Friday or Saturday night.
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7445811.stm
Read every word in that, I bet that the kids' parents won't be moaning about the Police tonight.
Especially this bit - I think it is a metaphor in a way.
"Both girls were crying and screaming and I grabbed them and placed them both on my shoulders and I swam back to shore."
Edited by Pugugly on 11/06/2008 at 19:21
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pug
my comments are never really about punch and judy police bashing, and the opposite arent they great stuff
one of my best mates is a copper, ive seen him in action close up off duty risking his life for the good of us all, i have total respect for him
but he like westpig recognises that the police service in some parts of the country is much worse than elsewhere, and its not just to do with some being rural and others busier etc, some iof it is just poor management
and the way our public services are run, so that we really do have a sub 3rd world health service, and a sub 3rd world police service, and schools in many parts of the country
while not running down the folk in these services doing their best
and the total anticar stance of the leadership of the police to keep their politically correct master happy, while knife crime is rampant, car theft is routine etc
carnt we have a balanced "yes we have some great coppers, but boy do we need to improve it" style discussion?
saw a nice car outside (motoring reference)
Edited by retgwte on 11/06/2008 at 19:41
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Latest update; last friday morning my G/f gets a call to say that the car has been found.
G/F asks is it driveable. Policeman "laughter" er not exactly, they've just found the doors.
G/F asks the policeman to contact me, as it's nothing to do with her, to tell me the details.
P/man. Yes, no problem, let me have his no. and I'll call him now.
That was 5 days ago. I told the insurance that the car had been partly recovered and now they want to know what the score is.
Phone the police today to try and find out more about the car being found. No details on the system about the car being recovered. Lady at the police station was "suprised" I hadn't been contacted by the original chap who had phone my G/F last friday to report the car found. Asked for whoever it was who phoned 5 days ago to contact me as the insurance need to know more about the recovery. I was told that this chap would be phoning me asap.
12 hrs later and still waiting.
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Needless to say I am utterly pink fluffy diced off with the service I am getting from the police.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 11/06/2008 at 22:32
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Complain then, sounds like a rubbish service.
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PU, I agree, but what would be gained?
Making a stressful situation worse doesn't really help.
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They need to be made to realise that they've given crap service - they need to know.
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I shall think seriously about it tomorrow, tonight there is the Apprentice.
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I know I was watching as I posted !
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Though this whole thing has been a nightmare and I wouldn't want to go through it again I'm just glad that Claire didn't win.
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Contrary to some people's belief, there are not vast armies of police officers sat around eating doughnuts, who can't be bothered to respond to the public.
Oh really ! I saw 8 of them doing something similar today in a Little Chef car park.
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MT,
How many jobs do you know that do not have break times, none at all. Furthermore the police are encouraged to take their breaks 'out and about', because A, it interacts with the public and B, it's often quicker i.e. no wasted journey to a police station. If they're on a posted break and choose to meet up with others, so what.
It would be a problem if they ignored serious calls and weren't prepared to interrupt the break. When it's busy you forego the break, simple as that.
I've forgotten the amounts of times i've had strange looks or even mild sarcasm when i've had the temerity to actually stop for a drink. Heavens forbid, a police officer actually drinks.
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Wstpig wrote on police and breaks >> Furthermore the police are encouraged to take their breaks 'out and about', because A, it interacts with the public >>
I've often wondered why the police don't go to and from work in uniform. There must be loads of them on buses, tubes and trains but you'd never know. It would be reassuring to see a uniform and a good way of interacting.
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I can't imagine any police officer wanting to get a late night tube alone and in full uniform.
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Wstpig wrote on police and breaks >> Furthermore the police are encouraged to take their breaks 'out and about' because A it interacts with the public >> I've often wondered why the police don't go to and from work in uniform. There must be loads of them on buses tubes and trains but you'd never know. It would be reassuring to see a uniform and a good way of interacting.
My 'normal' shift is 12 hours. It regularly goes to 14-15 hours. When I'm going home, I use the journey to wind down and leave work 'behind'. The last thing I would want is somebody trying to 'interact' with me. But I don't (can't) use the non-existent public transport anyway, so it's a bye the bye. (I also wouldn't go anywhere in uniform without my protective equipment either, which can't be stored at home.)
And a meal beak......what's one of those!!
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Oh really ! I saw 8 of them doing something similar today in a Little Chef car park.
Blimey, once? Now that is conclusive.
I once saw an army of coppers pile into a service station and buy doughnuts and pastries. So, I have concluded that all coppers spend the vast majority of their time doing likewise. It is a scandal. Something should be done about it.
Okay, that's enough sarcasm.
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Plod can't complain about being stereotyped too much - every dealing I've had with plod recently has set my teeth on edge as they have started off the conversation with an attitude that I'm some kind of pond life.
Yes, I'm sure plod have to deal with toerags frequently, but don't assume we all are - otherwise thats what you get back.
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... every dealing I've had with plod recently ..............
Sounds like you have dealings with the police regularly, so I guess you are somewhat of an authority on them. I've only spoken to one in my life, so I don't have enough experience of them to comment.
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The only dealings I've had with poilce have been conducted with exemplary politeness including being breathalysed att 11pm "for driving too slowly!".
But then I live a sheltered life. Mind you when it comes to vandalism nothing gets done till a neighbour takes a load of photos of miscreants vandalising and gives it to the police - who previously were 100% disinterested. .. and hey presto it all stops.
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Re "I also wouldn't go anywhere in uniform without my protective equipment either, which can't be stored at home" really? this is not the same in all forces
indeed some coppers i know have all their riot gear at home cos there is no space for it at their stations
which would leave the family to worry if they saw them come home to collect it and go back out some time, which i believe is what happens in practise
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You can't store CS spray at your Home address.
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Come on guys, (or at least some of you!),
Cops are the same as the rest of us - they try to do the best job they can - or at least 90+% do. They have a career, they need to earn the money they earn to feed their family, pay the mortgage, build up a pension fund etc - and they do a very difficult job to the best of their ability.
Most of us do the best we can because we have a sense of duty, and are "moral" but most of us have to abide by the rules/targets/etc that are set from above - the bosses/politicians etc. This also applies to all the blokes at the "coalface" - whether they be clampers, traffic wardens, cops, teachers, estate agents, mechanics at your main dealers, salesmen, binmen and all the rest.
Yes there are a lot of flyboys but surely they are in the minority and most of us are decent human beings who do the best we can to serve our "customers/clients" etc.
Maybe I'm a mug, an easy target, but I would prefer to believe the best in people than doubt all - been "done" a few times, met some unpleasant members of every profession but usually the blame lies wth those higher up rather than the individual.
Generalise? Cops are basically good blokes doing a good job to the best of their abilty within the constraints laid down. As for them having a doughnut - well I suppose they could go back to base and post on here during "working hours".
I don't envy them their job or their pensions - I wouldn't do it - I don't even go into local town on weekends for a pint - too dangerous.
Gullible(?) Phil
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Of course the police broadly speaking are like others, a few terrific, most OK, some deplorable.
I've met in my long and not all that chequered career all sorts including a member of the Met drug squad who many years ago busted and jailed, pretty undeservedly, a friend of mine. He was obviously a very nasty piece of work more or less at a glance, certainly after exchanging two sentences, and I couldn't help chortling a good few years later when the carphound ended up in the slammer where he belonged.
However I haven't met another copper like that (to my knowledge that is, and in this country). And I have met some very agreeable ones, here among other places.
Edited by Lud on 12/06/2008 at 21:22
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Hey WP lighten up, I'm all for the police mixing with the public and taking their breaks in public places, I often have a chat with them during their breaks and I wish more people would as well. Those 8 were taking their lunch break in the car park, however, it was noticable that some people inside the Little Chef were definately uncomfortable at the police presence and were wondering if they were checking peoples tyres. Two unmarked cars seemed to be causing concern. Makes you wonder what some people have to hide !
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Hey WP lighten up >>
something along the lines of....i've had a few doughnuts over the years..and can sadly prove it with photographic evidence...:-)
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Edited by Westpig on 13/06/2008 at 14:14
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Maybe the boys in blue on here could enlighten me on this query.
Over the years I have been involved with police a few times, most of them to do with shoplifting (I was a Supermarket manager).
One of the frustrations was when a copper came and took a shplifter away, only he/she would deal with the case. As their shifts change etc, you could wait up to a fortnight to get hold of them again. Why can the details now be passed on to someone else? If there is a murder enquiry it will be dealt with pretty much 24/7. Now I am not saying both crimes are equal but the system is obviously there where initial details could be input and when I call up they can check and give me an update rather than PC Plod is back on nightshift on Tues and he will get you then?
To use a motoring theme, if my car is in the garage and I phone them the next day, they will be able to tell me what has happened etc, they won't say "well Peter the mechanic is back on Wed and we will call you then"
So why can't police?
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some city forces (London certainly) have support services that take up the admin slack for crimes, so the original police officer will deal to start with, then pass to another officer on a support unit to carry on, (so that the original one can carry on with response policing). Eventually a civilian admin unit will take over..and those support staff can acces the computerised crime reporting system and may well have a degree of ownership of that crime (so could comment on what's happening). The support services are more likely to work some form of office hours and therefore be more available.
I'm aware that many county and therefore smaller Forces do not have such back up systems for patrolling officers, so the individual officer has to fit the enqs in as and when they can. As they're on shift work, will take leave, go on courses, be required to work in various other places etc, they might not be available to be contacted for quite some time...and no one else will know where they are in the investigation.
For example, with no abstractions at all, a common shift pattern has 4 days off, 7 days nights and then 3 days off, so in a 5 week period that officer will be uncontactable for 2 weeks in one go...unless you want to discuss it in the middle of the night of course, which most people don't...:-)
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