It is fuel prices that will lose the Government the next election. Many people blame the high fuel prices on the Government even if the current rises have nothing to do with them. As fuel prices rise, so does the VAT collected, In addition there is the huge duty collected and we all know that Mr Darling is going to raise duty by another 2p at the next budget.
This is just kicking people when they are down. They could do something to reduce fuel prices at the pumps like only charging VAT on the price after duty or lowering the duty on Diesel, but don't expect that from this remorselessly greedy bunch.
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there is a bit in our local paper about the cost of fuel affecting fishing boats which are now paying £1000 per day to go to sea compared to around £560 a year ago so its not just motoring which is hit by high fuel costs ,
there are a huge amount of foriegn operated trucks coming in with large under tanks which dont contribute to road upkeep etc costs as they dont spend money while they are here but do cause wear and tear which has to be payed for by others so its a lose /lose situation
the cost of fuel is so interlinked with all other costs and many neccesities that surely a limit on %age of duty is needed and the money raised from income tax although reducing waste in government would help the situation somewhat.
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>>but don't expect that from this remorselessly greedy bunch.but don't expect that from this remorselessly greedy bunch.>>
One of the main faults of the majority of politicians is that they have little or no experience of working in or running a business in the real world.
Frankly I'm amazed that anyone wants to run a business these days - just imagine running a haulage or courier firm for instance with the problem of constantly rising fuel costs.
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One of the main faults of the majority of politicians is that they have little or no experience of working in or running a business in the real world.
this statement hits the nail smack on the head with a big sledgehammer
it should be compulsory to be in management in private business before becoming a counciller then moving on to an mp .
transport minister for example should need experience in the road haulage industry .
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There must be an increasingly growing case for UK based hauliers to be able to claim some sort od parity-producing levy to offset 'cheap' competition from EU based (or Eastern European based..) hauliers whose fuel & other costs are giving them an unfair advantage when they work in, or transit, the UK.
Any type of levy on foreign truckers would probably have the EU screaming blue murder - so maybe time for Gordon to get tough. When fuel costs were a lower proportion of overall costs this discrepancy could mabe get 'lost' in lower profits or efficiency gains by UK based hauliers, but there must come a point when that doesn't work & UK jobs go to the wall.
I notice growing numbers of foreign regd. trucks pounding up & down the A55 to the Holyhead-Dublin ferry & often wonder how much congestion & cost are caused to the UK economy by these transiters. I imagine they only pay a ferry crossing, but buy their fuel in mainland Europe, while their goods are bound to/from Ireland. Other EU countries at least have road toll charges - maybe we could introduce such things for foreign hauliers?
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at least have road toll charges - maybe we could introduce such things for foreign hauliers?
EU would probably scream murder at toll on foreighn hauliers but what about toll on all hauliers with facility for UK hauliers to claim it back in some way, posiibly to offset against gross income for UK taxes ?
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I think UK hauliers would object.
I don't know what it costs to buy RFL or VED or whatever it's called for a large truck but it must be a lot of money. Far simpler to reduce the duty on the fuel.
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I have often thought that there was a much simpler way of dealing with this. My suggestion would be to have a special ( higher ) rate of VAT on road fuel with a commensurate reduction in fuel duty. That way the private user sees no difference but the UK business user would see a greater benefit in reclaimable VAT while the foreign visitor would continue to pay the same full price. Just a simple thought from a simple man. I'm sure there will be a good reason why this would not be acceptable. I just think it would be an easy way of giving our domestic economy and businesses a much needed boost.
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No = they can reclaim the VAT too
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No = they can reclaim the VAT too
As Catherine Tate might say "What a.......... liberty !" ;-)
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Why?
Brittish business can reclaim all the VAT it pays in Europe
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Crikey .... I momentarily felt a little smidgen of sympathy for my accountant when you told me that ! All those Italian receipts I give him. It's OK now though, it's worn off, I just had another gander at his charges for last year. ;-)
Edited by Shoespy on 10/05/2008 at 20:40
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Oil crude went over $125 a barrel on Friday. A barrel is 159 litres so you can work out what that translates to at the pumps once it hits the high street soon.
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> 159 litres
Indeed you're right Mike. And I have always been using the modern 200 litre barrel volume in my top of the head calculations... It's worse than I thought. :-(
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_%28unit%29
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According to OPEC there isn't a shortage. They blame investment funds. If that's right, it looks like the wonderful folks who brought us the sub-prime crisis are at it again.
Any thoughts?
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OPEC say no shortage .. and really there is little. But supplies are tight.. and OPEC - despite what they claim - are unable - yes UNABLE - to pump more...
A variety of reasons including using the profits for consumption rather than investment - (windfall tax anyone?:-) - or in the Saudi case... claims they will not in order to preserve supplies..(in other words they are running out)... but new oilfield on stream 2009 gives 1.2 million bopd).
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Where does 1.2m bopd go in terms of global consumption, or UK consumption?
I was more concerned that in the way speculators re-packaged sub-prime debt into strange financial products with the result that no-one knew where they were and banks stopped lending to one another, speculation in oil does no-one but the speculators any good and leads to real economic problems when the cost of everything to do with transport goes up. I'm naive but I don't think it's right and I do notice that in the end it was the taxpayer who bailed the banks out.
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1.2 M bopd is roughly 1.5% of daily world demand.
Everyone and anyone can speculate on oil. You can spread bet it for £1 per point if you like. So for each $ movement in price you gain or lose £100.
As fo the morality of trading in commodities, it's been going on for centuries...I remember the Dutch and tulips:-)
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Without speculative trading in commodities, the world would fall to pieces.
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Without speculative trading in commodities, the world would fall to pieces. >>
OK. I'm a bit naive and find it easy to miss the point.
Speculators don't prospect for the oil. They don't extract it. They don't refine it. They don't transport it. They don't actually sell it on to the end user.
Without them, how and why would the word of oil fall to pieces?
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I know it's a bit sad posting onto your own posts, but I'm looking for an answer from Mapmaker and I remember in the bendybus thread he said he was nearly run over by one when on his bike.
It can't be. Come on Mapmaker, if you're still in one piece, explain speculative trading in oil futures to us and why we should feel grateful to the speculators every time we're at the garage.
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Come on Mapmaker ..
While you wait for Mapmaker's reply, here is some preparatory reading for you:
michaelguth.com/economist/chap3.htm
somewhat simpler:
www.scienceofsociety.org/onlinestudy/speccap/specu...l
much simpler, related to oil specifically:
www.federalreserve.gov/Boarddocs/Speeches/2004/200...m
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Thank you, jbif.
But have you blown Mapmaker's cover? Is he Bernard Bernanke taking time off from sorting out the US to post on HJ's site?
I've skimmed the Bernanke article and will come back to it later in the day. On the whole, it's unsurprising to see someone in his position in the US arguing that speculation produces identifiable benefits in terms of the economy. I wonder if he's still so keen on the use of derivatives and other complex financial products today?
How do you get the time to research all these sites, jbif? Are you, in fact, a team of people?
Back to cars. People I've been talking to are judging costs of petrol as new barriers are breached, so the £50+ fill of the tank is now common.
Anyone want to predict a date for the £60+ fill, or can some cars achieve that now?
Enjoy the sun, all.
Edited by Optimist on 13/05/2008 at 10:01
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>or can some cars achieve that now?
My Range Rover has a 100 litre tank...
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£70 to fill a Mondeo last week ( diesel ) Almost exactly ten times what it cost to fill a similar category of car in 1978. Extrapolate that another 30 years..........Hows the pension looking ?
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What? You mean you'll be able to afford to retire?
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Sadly no, I suppose I'll just have to try to beat that "Buster whatsisname" fellow as Britain's oldest worker in due course !
Edited by Shoespy on 13/05/2008 at 10:14
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From forecourttrader.co.uk
In 1916 petrol was £1.85 per litre (8.40 a gallon) in todays money
In 1957 £1.16 per litre in todays money
In 1973 and 1979 £1.02 per litre in todays money
It helps to get a little perspective on things.
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And wages and salaries were relatively lower then. It would be interesting if there was a comparison based on minutes worked on average salary in order to buy a litre of petrol.
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I guess from you're name Optimist that you think you will still be in a position to worry about the price of a tank of petrol 30 years after you retire:-)
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Never mind: If you think $120 per barrel is bad: read this..
tinyurl.com/644u2q
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The majority of the pain is govenment tax. they should introduce a de-esculator as one mp suggested for use when the priced go sky high like this. They will loose out becasue this will cause inflation if we are not careful as what do the trucks that deliver our food run on?
Then the government has the termerity to say that we need an aging tax, a bin tax.... I could go on but it's not worth it. I am beginning to notice the cost though of fuel and find the extra cost of Diesel particularly hard to stomach as it negates benefits of the engines efficiency. To pay 12 p a litre extra for a cruder and less refined fuel than petrol is outrageous. MSN did a back to bac comprison using 308's and found that Diesels still chaper to run but I am very conerned at the widening gap between the fuel prices.
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Here in Southern Spain, for the first time, diesel is MORE expensive than unleaded.
Our local gasolinera is posting a price of 1,19.9 euros a litre.
Given the current rate of exchange, as a tourist, (you'll get around 1,23 euros for a pound), it is virtually at U.K. prices.
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"Our local gasolinera is posting a price of 1,19.9 euros a litre.
Given the current rate of exchange, as a tourist, (you'll get around 1,23 euros for a pound), it is virtually at U.K. prices"
Sadly, no... E1.19.9 = 97.5p - Diesel here is currently £1.20 (or more) - 20% more expensive.
What the government could do is remove the VAT element of fuel tax - it would then be just a per litre duty, and they couldn't be accused of raking it in every time the forecourt price goes up. But there's probably a European directive that bans that.
VAT on tax is, to borrow Catherine Tate's phrase already touted, a liberty....
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VAT on tax is, to borrow Catherine Tate's phrase already touted, a liberty.... >>
Yeah, it is. When you think about it the tax is supposed to reflect value added by something happening in relation to the product.
How do you add value by imposing a duty on fuel? Just a thought.
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Government borrowing will rise £2Billion as a result of yesterday's income tax moves.
The revenues from Stamp Duty on house sales are likely to fall £3 billion as house sales collapse (I use the word "collapse" advisedly.. a 50% fall in new planning applications ).
Offsetting that VAT receipts on petrol/diesel will rise with fuel inflation.
But retail sales are faltering.
Put it all together and there is little room for tax cuts.
Lots of room for cutting spending.
Edited by madf on 14/05/2008 at 10:31
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"it is virtually at U.K. prices."
How long is it since you were in the UK? At the current poor exchange rate that's still only 96.7p per litre - a price not seen since 2007.
As ever with Spain euro price reflects sterling price - £120.9 this morning at the local Morrisons - up from £114.9 10 days ago.
Edited by daveyjp on 14/05/2008 at 10:29
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We've arrived at the point in time where a litre of fuel costs as much as a cup of tea in a cafe', free refill anyone !
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My local this morning Diesel £1.25.9 and Petrol £114.9 That is £5.72 a gallon Diesel and £5.22 for petrol :O
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Prices continue to creep up. But the current oil price rises are based on June deliveries, aren't they, so are we seeing earlier increases at the pumps now?
How long does it take a rise in the price of crude to take effect at the pumps?
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4 weeks. approx... But if there is a petrol shortage, 0 weeks.
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