ALANOVICH
"So what should they buy? Or should they be kept off the roads?" No, I didn't say (or imply that), I was merely commenting on their target audience and that there is no reason for anyone else to buy one.
"whatever happened to gentlemanly conduct?" Oh get a grip man (woman?).
"denigrating one of the most important car makers." Are you serious? Since when was Fiat one of the most important car makers? If it wasn't for the subsidies Fiat gets it would have gone under years ago.
RATTLE
"I assume you have driven a lot of these then?" A lot? no. One? Yes - one too many. It was at a trade demo day. And it broke down. And everybody laughed. A lot.
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The implication seemed pretty clear in your patronising comment about young women. I'll leave you to tie yourself in knots over my gender if it matters to you. Again you seem to be implying women's opinions and needs concerning cars and motoring are to be scoffed at by even making an issue of it.
If we were to simply let all mufacturers in financial trouble go to the wall, we wouldn't have much choice left. Fiat is an important business in one of Europe's (and the world's) leading industrial economies. And it makes a quality product, usually designed with the driver in mind. Sometimes manufacturers don't get it 100% right with pre-production cars, perhaps you experienced one of these as the reviews and opinions of the motoring press since launch stand in stark contrast to your somewhat limited exposure.
Like I say, where do car enthusiasts get off bad mouthing a company who have consistently produced drivers' cars for decades? Yes, reliability has left a little to be desired in the past, but recently the firm are managing to produce reliable affordable cars still built with the driving experience still in mind. They can great fun cars to drive whcih many millions of people enjoy and give us all an interesting choice away from more workaday manufacturers.
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ALANOVICH
Sorry... no offense but I got bored after the first couple of lines of your rant and didn't read the rest as I guessed it was much of the same. I'm not sure why you're getting all worked up into a tiz over it (though I presume you've "invested" in a Fiat and therefore feel the need to defend them maybe??)
I can only speak from experience, and that experience is that every time I've gone anywhere near a Fiat, all I've witnessed is a shoddy, unreliable, cheap and tacky car, which breaks down. A lot.
Maybe my experiences have all been remarkably unlucky? Maybe I've just seen the bad ones and every other Fiat is top-notch? Maybe the moon is made of cheese?
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I must confess that I have not seen many of these on the road given that they are supposed to be selling like the preverbial hot cake, saw one on Jonathan Ross's drive on the news last night so there is a good excuse for not owning one LOL.
Seriously though I think I would save my cash and buy a Panda 1.2 from a broker a save myself a serious lump of cash. My purely subjecive opinion is that it looks too high and bulbous. I think the Ford Ka version of this chassis (from the pics) looks better proportioned. I will be interested to try one when the supposed ultra clean, 100hp plus 900cc twin cylinder turbo is fitted. It will make all the other engines redunant..... if it is fitted, haven't had confirmation yet
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P.S In terms of mechanical reliability they hould be fine., especially the base 1.2 engine. This is the FIRE engine introduced way back in 1984 in the FIAT Uno. I had an one and it went on for 100,000 trouble and smoke free miles before it failed an MOT due to rust. It is a shame as the boss man in his old used car guide used to say the FIRE was good for 300 to 400,000 miles. Based on experience of other FIATs, build has improved though.
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I'm currently on my 5th Fiat, and only one of them has broken down on me, a snapped cambelt on a Regata - my fault for not changing it soon enough. Even that didn't damage the engine, a new belt was fitted and off I went. I subsequently sold the car to an uncle who ran it for many years and a stellar mileage. I used to drive that down to Gibralatar an back in the days before the Spanish motorways were complete, and it was teriffic at overtaking lorries, even though it was a mere 1.3. Loved the car, regretted sellling it.
I find them robust, reliable, cheap to run and fun to drive. Me and much of mainland Europe - it seems it's just the Brits who deride them.
As for getting in a tizzy, well I think we're quits there. :-) But at least I've got the decency to read your output before passing comment.
Edited by Alanovich on 30/10/2008 at 15:11
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I think people just cannot forget the rust image of the 70's. I believe this one of the reasons why Nissan decided to rebrand their Datsun's Nissans due tot he image probem of rust.
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Fair comment but I can't think of too many manfacturers renowned for rust free vehicles in the 70s. Very silly to make a judgement on that basis.
The Fiat basher in this thread also mentioned cars as an "investment" earlier. Er, no. I don't think any car can ever be considered anything other than money down the drain, never to be recovered.
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Yep I paid £350 for my car, if I get £200 for it at MOT time I will be more than happy. I was actually looking at the older Puntos but too many of them seem to have HG and gearbox issues, I would happily spend £2k on a new punto though if i was happy with the mechanics.
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Fair comment but I can't think of too many manufacturers renowned for rust free vehicles in the 70s.
I too remember Fiats from the 70's, the 124 specials with the twin cam engine's, astonishing performance and good handling from a standard 3 box saloon car.
Even the standard 127 and 124 were decent cars, fast and apart from the admitted rust were capable motors too.
I don't remember too many shining example's of quality bodies in those days until Volvo and Saab led the way with their almost rust free tank like builds, the rest rotted away pronto unless their first owner was a waxoyle fetishist, and to be fair to Fiat they took the criticism and put their house in order.
SWMBO had a company punto for a few years, went ok and quite economical, but like most small cars was very skittish on wet roads, reliable though.
I haven't had a Fiat myself for years since a regatta diesel, the engine of which was superb, torquey and economical, superior to most competitors except maybe in life expectancy, my only real criticism at the time was the ridiculous cost of genuine parts. Are they still a rip off parts wise?
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Are they still a rip off parts wise?
I don't know, I haven't had to buy one since the cambelt for the Regata! Oh, apart from a fog light switch for a Ulysse. Which was so cheap I can't remember the price now.
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well it had to happen, lets slag fiat. long history of driving fiats, 127, regata, strada abarth.
am on my 2cnd panda ist 1.2 panda eleganza, 14000 miles, nothing broke, fell off. started first time every time.
now on 11000 miles with a 07 panda 100 hp, still brings a smile, again no warranty issues at all...totally reliable.
times have changed, fiat had to improve and they have. even the local dealer has been ok.
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Re: 500 versus new KA
For all those that are interested ...
There's an interesting supplement published with this week's AUTOCAR which details how Ford developed its new Ka out of the 500 and the new Panda.
The feature talks about the different cultures that exist between Ford and Fiat and how the two cars differ even though they're built on the same platform.
For example, Ford is fussier about vehicle dynamics than is Fiat and so it specified a stronger anti-roll bar for its new Ka. Another example is where Ford gave Ka a better cold-start ability than did Fiat for its 500.
The Ka is set to be an absolute cracker and should sell like hot cakes.
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Is Ford as fussy about galvanising as Fiat is? ;)
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That's one thing the feature never mentioned !
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Fiat are building the Ka for ford, with engines built both in Poland and Italy. If the Ka sells well then Fiat will do very nicely out of it too.
The 2 cylinder turbo mentioned above will be available in all small Fiats in the course of time.
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That can't be true, Fiat aren't important enough.
;-)
So the new Ford is a badge engineered Fiat. I still expect that the Ka will be feted and wowed over as a classic and a wonderful choice of car, the Fiat will continue to be derided. Funny old world.
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Absolutely. Not forgetting the 1.9 diesels in the Saabs and Vauxhalls are all Fiat built
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An engine I enjoy on a daily basis in a much cheaper Fiat. I think I'll shut up now, if everyone else cottons on second hand Fiats might get more expensive to buy. Year old Bravos are an utter bargain compared to Golfs etc.
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The new Ka is being built in the same Polish factory which constructs the 500 and Panda.
New Ka will use Fiat's 1.2 litre petrol engine and the 1.3 multijet diesel.
There's a road test of new Ka (with comparison to the 500) now posted on www.autocar.co.uk
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I bought a brand new Grande 2 years ago, and its needed 15 trips to the dealer in the interim to get issues resolved under warranty. Has this put me off buying another FIAT............. too right it has!!
Edited by Webmaster on 30/10/2008 at 20:41
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They had problems with the GPunto when it was released. Was talking to a dealer principle and he said now with the Panda, 500 and Bravo they only see them for routine servicing
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Well......he would, remember Gerald Ratner?
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Sounds like a lot of sainted Toyota Yarises which get discussed on here.
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Are the general car buying public like a herd of Diplodocus moving slowly across the landscape, not caring about galvanising, only dimly perceiving salt and it`s effects and only then if encountered in a bag of crisps?
;)
Edited by oilrag on 30/10/2008 at 16:33
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>>That's one thing the feature never mentioned !
Maybe Ford really don't want to talk about galvanising. Perhaps motoring journalists are not allowed to ask Ford questions about galvanising. But as an owner of the present/outgoing Ka, galvanising would be the ONE subject that I would have been interested in in with respect to the new Ka.
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My sisters husband works for Ford and she has run three on the trot (Fiesta and two Focus). She drives all over the south as an interpreter for the deaf and racks up big miles. All cars have been faultlessly reliable.
I think the new Ka is better looking than the 500 and am pleased that the engine is the FIAT 1.2 FIRE petrol. My experience is of a sweet revving, simple and bomb proof little engine. I used to thrash my little UNO 45 FIRE from Kent to West Wales for Uni upteen times a year, flat out wherever posible. It revved for ever, always started on the nail and never used a drop of oil. It was a shame the rest of the car was not up to the standards this excellent little engine. I know that Honest John used to wax lyrical about it but that was admittedly the 999cc engine. don't know what the 1.2 mulitpoint cat engine is like but certainly tried and tested. Maybe the man can give some feedback on his 500 as it is running the 1.2 FIRE engine. John are you reading this?
Edited by Mattbod on 30/10/2008 at 18:08
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I understand that HJ is currently road testing a new Ka.
I guess he'll be posting the story very soon.
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HJ, While you have it, could you give it a tap with an ice pick in the nether regions to see if it`s galvanised?
If Ford don`t like it, you could report back in code - such as.
"The wee car just flew down the road, wood pigeons gasped in awe as the paintwork took on a *two tone* hue as road salt reflected the fading October light.
;)
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Re: 500 versus new KA There's an interesting supplement published with this week's AUTOCAR which details how Ford developed its new Ka out of the 500 and the new Panda. another example is where Ford gave Ka a better cold-start ability than did Fiat for its 500.
>
???
I'm wondering what that means in engineering terms? A bigger battery or a starting handle?
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I've just tested the Ka comparing it to my 500. Up on site at www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=354 . A video test will be added on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Interesting to see that there's an 80g/km CO2 version in the pipeline. If that target is met, then it leaves the hybrids like the Toyota Prius looking like a baroque joke. If 80g/km is really achievable on a fairly conventional steel box, it gives a good indication of what could be done if the manufacturers started making slippery and lightweight cars rather than these ridiculously heavy steel boxes they still keep churning out.
Edited by NowWheels on 01/11/2008 at 10:43
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Are sales of the Micra increasing as a result of the 500?
I can see there being a trade in debadged versions -- take the badges off the Micra and 500 and you'd be hard-pushed to tell them apart from some angles.
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Nice write up HJ. Is the anti-perforation warranty still six years? or matching Fiats eight?
(can`t find that info on Fords site)
Edited by oilrag on 01/11/2008 at 16:57
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>>Interesting to see that there's an 80g/km CO2 version in the pipeline. If that target is met, then it leaves the hybrids like the Toyota Prius looking like a baroque joke<<
Not really since one is a city car and one is a family sized car so nobody looking at a Prius will consider it a direct rival. You may aswell say that nobody will look at a Merc S-Class because the Smart is easier to park.
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"Eight years - see the bottom of this page."
Sorry, I missed that. Seems like Uncle Henry has had it galvanised then - maybe to Fiat standards too, as it`s made in a Fiat plant?
Edited by oilrag on 01/11/2008 at 18:20
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Not really since one is a city car and one is a family sized car so nobody looking at a Prius will consider it a direct rival.
Actually, the Prius was conceived as a city car - for american cities. It's actually brilliant at doing city journeys, wafting around in silence using only the electric motor with the batteries being charged when you brake makes it a unique driving experience. It's just that by european standards it's actually quite a large car and therefore difficult to park in a european city.
The hybrid concept isn't ideal for constant speed motorway use as the batteries then need the petrol engine to charge them. I really like the Prius but grudgingly have to admit that a diesel is probably a more suitable allrounder.
Back to the Fiat 500 - my wife made the comment that the styling is nice but probably makes the car difficult to park (my wife hates parking), which defeats the point of a small car.
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Not really since one is a city car and one is a family sized car so nobody looking at a Prius will consider it a direct rival. You may aswell say that nobody will look at a Merc S-Class because the Smart is easier to park.
The size is a red herring here; the issue is the relative efficiency gain achieved by the technology applied in each case. The Prius's selling point is that it is significantly less polluting than other vehicles of its size, and the small-diesel FIAT 500 also promises to be less polluting than other vehicles of its size.
These two vehicles address the same problem, but using very different technologies. The interesting thing about the new 900cc FIAT 500 diesel is that it achieves a similar CO2 saving over its run-of-the-mill siblings to that which the Prius manages over other Prius-sized cars (such as a Focus Econetic), but without the expense of a hugely complicated and expensive hybrid system, without the environmental and safety concerns of all those batteries ... and it won't lose its advantage if does a few hundred miles at a steady speed. Plus, it won't need to be subsidised by its makers as a loss-leader to boost their "green" credentials in the eyes of those who don't check the car's claims against real-world usage.
Once the 80g/km FIAT is on the roads, it'll be even harder for the Prius to sustain its position as the poster child of green motoring. Unless there is a quantum leap in battery technology, hybrids are a dead-end sideline in the efficiency stakes, albeit sideline which may retain a niche in some specialised uses such as stop-start vehicles (e.g. urban buses)
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Yes it's the 900 cc SGE engine and will be avaiable from 2010. FIAT are talking about as much as 110 bhp in turbocharged form. It is only going to be a two cylinder though but should be smooth thanks to a finely balanced crank. Still the 2CV was a two pot and i love those! Plenty of info if you google FIAT SGE. I think the Prius is just a marketing led joke personally.the future lies with ultra efficient, powerful yet smaller engines and light weight, slippery bodies as you say.I am itching to try this engine when it comes out.
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