"Rear wheel drive - simplicity of layout, ease of engine access when longitudinally mounted, practicality of non-assisted steering when not coupled to FWD system ( oh yes ..and more fun )"
A convert !
|
|
|
Is it not fullfilled by second hand cars that are a bit simpler than the current crop..
Plus cars like Berlingo/the more basic 4x4 suzukis etc.
|
I think that in Shoe's scheme of things there would be space for a 4x4 high bodied version.
OK which engine ?
Simple, basic, efficient petrol engine starting point for me would be a 1.4 K series. OK with strengthened HG features of course !
|
Simple basic efficient petrol engine starting point for me would be a 1.4 K series. OK with strengthened HG features of course !
Surely a n/a diesel would be more suited to the principle of the idea? No plugs, points or all those electric gubbins that petrol engines have to keep them going?
|
|
OK - the old VAG SD engine then ?
|
|
Tough unpainted plastic bumpers, old style halogen headlamps with accesible bulbs, strong enough construction and wiring to support upgraded bulbs if required and clip on points for protectors. (and a pair of spots to make them more effective on main beam) - Big proper indicators and side lights (similar to the current Fabia/Roadster) VAG 1.4 SD engine, low oil, low pressure lights, temperature gauge, low coolant warnings, engine easily tunable for grunt or performance.
|
|
|
|
Didnt a company buy a whole load of maestro's some years ago, and do exactly this?
Alright so it wasn't the greatest car around, but it was cheap and simple with a good old a+ series engine, but as i remember they just couldn't sell them
I think that possibly there could be a market that some of us older tinkerers would be interested for example, but the younger generation expect better things, you only have to see what sort of vehicles new drivers buy certainly not the old bangers we did.
I still want greasable joints and rwd, but cant even have those unless you spend a fortune.
Maybe when the forthcoming recession bites hard enough and wages drop to real poverty levels there may be a change, trouble is its virtually impossible to keep up with the emission legislation as it is, so i just can't see it happening.
If you look at the used car market, no one wants the more basic models with manual windows and 3 controls for the heater they want digital climate control (needed so desperately for our 6 days of summer) with full knowledge it will all go wrong. Still gives them something to moan about in the BR.
|
Watch out for a chinese car imo.
Simple electronics will be the new equivalent of eaily repairable.
Introduce a car with that and it will sell; loads!
Complexity is great when it all works ! expesive and time consuming when its not.
Imo too many modern cars are too complex for their own good, and it will bounce back on the current vehicle assemblers!
|
|
I think the truth is that cars can no longer be made with simple electrics (as opposed to electronics) our European masters have seen to that with stringent emissions rules.
|
|
|
I suppose what set me thinking about this was this morning waking up and missing my Westfield. It was really just a chassis, an engine and some removable plastic all mounted on some wheels but was great fun to drive and to work on. Then I thought "you silly old goat, you'd just look stupid in it now anyway" so I started to think about how that basic concept could translate into a more practical vehicle. I have no preconceptions about what it might look like but I suppose it should be able to do most things adequately and perhaps a couple of them well. Some good ideas emerging above.
Still miss my Westie though ( anyone tried that "Just for Men" stuff ?!) ;-)
|
Still miss my Westie though ( anyone tried that "Just for Men" stuff ?!) ;-)
You'd be fine in a westie Shoespy, just dig out an old cravate and flannels and brogues, and of course the reversed flat cap, then waffle like Boris a lot and you've gone up several social strata.
I used to use the just for men, then found eventually i was buying it by the 45 gallon drum, and have since let nature take its course. I just hate it when people without the grey say how distinguished it looks, i've been going grey since 21 and i'm pretty certain it isn't in the least distinguishing.
Never had a westfield or caterham by the way, but now the shock of the backdated ved has worn off i'm considering a impreza turbo (as against legacy) as its more reactionary and anti green, and we do love upsetting the green militia.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is this not the Renault/Dacia Logan market + loads of others that might come from India & China - a modern version of the 50+ year old Morris 1000/Ford Prefect
|
Although we may demand a basic car - the makers will make it as complex as possibe at each price point so as to ensure parts and servicing sales.
On this point it has been well documented how car makers "know exactly what we want ?" ...ie greenhouses, Wifi connections whilst we wait for our £180 oil change etc.
A good independent garage I know recently commented to me on how much stuff is getting main dealer only when it comes to spares. The Car world is folowing the truck world where you buy the vehicle as a package - Car - HP/PCP - Service Package guaranteed future value etc.
|
I think that the OP's point here is that the car would be made on an ethical basis (yes it is possible to be ethical in business - even the car business) so that its design is sustainable beyond the point of sale so any consequent "service" business is within the scope of that sustainability.
I do some work for a local Housing Association - essentially a money making business, but they temper it with good business practice, linked into a moral and sustainable approach to their varied business interests and consequently they are viewed very positively by all that come into contact with them. It is almost an Utopian business model, but more in keeping with socialist based work ethic.
A car company such as BMW could reap huge PR benefits from setting a car making business based on such principles, at least they would be savvy enough to make some money whilst they were at it !
A community car making project......mmm, funding small industrial enterprises, and consequently developing engineering and design skills through sponsored courses in Universities and Technical colleges (or whatever they're called now) - locally based servicing centres linking to other services for the rural community, so that when your utility car is in for a service you can shop and conduct other business in the same locality.
Edited by Pugugly on 23/03/2008 at 17:49
|
Nice point PU, and there are one or two companies that operate in such a way.
I get my gas and electric supplied by such a company (a Christian charity at the back of it) whose philosophy is ONE price for all whether you are solvent or on a pre pay meter.
I am with them (they are not the very cheapest for me but very competitive) because i like that way of operating, as its usually the wealthiest people who get the best deals.
If manufacturers of cars and other goods did as you say, i'm sure a lot of us would give them business.
|
I get my gas and electric supplied by such a company (a Christian charity at the back of it) whose philosophy is ONE price for all whether you are solvent or on a pre pay meter.
I work for a mainstream energy company and we charge our customers the same prices regardless of the type of meter that they have installed, not all of the big energy firms are as heartless as the media makes out! :-)
|
|
|
|
A community car making project......mmm funding small industrial enterprises and consequently developing engineering and design skills through sponsored courses in Universities and Technical colleges (or whatever they're called now) - locally based servicing centres linking to other services for the rural community so that when your utility car is in for a service you can shop and conduct other business in the same locality.
So what you would need is a like minded group of car enthusiasts. Possibly made up of some sales and marketing expertise, an engineer, a designer, someone with an ad agency, someone with a bit of legal nous, a few quid, maybe some people who are about to retire early or would like to..............maybe a respected motoring journalist.............a bit more dosh probably.............wonder where you would find a bunch of crazies like that ? ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
As has been said emission regs would spoil the show. But no reason a battery only electric car can`t be kept simple.
Just noticed the Norwegian battery only job and that BMW are to produce a battery only small car with over 100 miles range.
Problem is todays expectations, central locking on small two door cars where you can easily lean over and lock the other door and cheap aircon crammed into what could be simple small cars with wind up windows..
Never mind regenerative braking systems and fancy wiring with a main ECU and 12 others all chatting to each other. Keep it simple as in big lithium batteries and a socket for the mains lead. Then stick it in a lightweight proper shell rather than a quadropede and well... No one wants it because it doesn`t have 500lbs of waiting to go wrong junk.
Oh, go on then give me another 2CV, but all I ask is galvanising, spark plug threads with inserts and better welch washers to keep the grease in the kingpins ;)
Regards
|
|
Kingpins - so it is a Morris 1000 !
|
|
Or an MGBGT
Edited by shoespy on 23/03/2008 at 18:04
|
|
the 2CV kingpins had no wear at 87,000 miles, but I used to jack it up and get the grease gun on them every 1,000 miles, rain sun or snow....
|
Is this not the Renault/Dacia Logan market + loads of others that might come from India & China - a modern version of the 50+ year old Morris 1000/Ford Prefect
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustan_Ambassador
This car has all the features you wanted. AFAIK, it failed on UK market because of some emission problem, which pushed the price too high.
Most Suzuki [incl. my own Ignis] cars are still very basic compared to other European cars.
|
I don't think there is a demand for them, a few years ago, you could buy a new Morris Oxord/ Hindustan Ambassador in the UK, but nobody bought them because they were too simple and expensive to make and buy at around £15,000.
Mass-produced things are difficult to fix but cheap to buy these days, in 1985, a 14" portable TV was £279 in the Kay's catalogue (I still have) in it, pound for pound, almost everything is the same price as 23 years ago. If you look at cars, in 1987, a Range Rover was £25,000 and a BMW 525i was £23,000 that's certainly proportionally more than today, it's the basics such as bread, milk, butter, and most of all tax and duty which has gone up a lot.
|
|
The equivalent device in the bike world is a Royal Enfield bullet.
|
|
I think PU's community car manufacturing idea is heading in the right direction, but what we should be doing in my opinion is recycling a lot of those cars built between say 1980 and2000 which were adequately rust proofed ,reliable mechanically and simply constructed.What with the ease of locating spare parts nowadays and the training possibilities for the nations youth it's certainly something the government (not this one ,they can't get anything right) should consider.Just imagine if you could buy a kite marked reconditioned car for say£3000 as an alternative to new.Just imagine how many XUD diesel engined cars are lying around in breakers yards written off for the sake of a few easily obtained second hand body panels.My wifes peugeot 106 with years of usefull life left in it was written off because some scumbags broke a side window and stole the battery! Where's the sense in that.Cars nowadays have become over complicated beyond belief and consequently thrown away too soon.I think this reconditioning idea is a win win situation for the enviroment ,the country ,the workforce ,and first time buyers in particular. Mk 1 golf diesel recon. as a first car anybody?
Edited by isisalar on 23/03/2008 at 19:25
|
|
Sounds like an excellent idea to me, in theory.
|
Me too excellent ideas. Lots of 80's and 90's motors that would benefit from a refurb.
Mk1 golf diesel, 205 diesel, even escort/orion diesel.
Give proper jobs and good training to some of todays youth.
Hang on better back date some dodgy tax hike to put a stop to that.
|
It would be nice if there was legislation to force new cars to be able to adapt to the latest technology without the need for buying a whole new car but instead offering upgrade packages. I know some high end cars such as Astons can be sent back to the factory and have anything current put in if you are willing to pay the money.
Ive seen some of these modular cars in concept, would be interesting to see if anything comes of them.
|
|
It would be nice if there was new legislation to force new cars to be simple and repairable economically.
|
|
Hope one of BMW's apparatchik is reading this. Come on BMW I dare you !
|
PU You may have something there.BMW branded Re-con cars would certainly sell well.Mini's seem to be doing ok A little patch out the back where you buy your first car an all makes repaired little workshop that repairs things rather than just bolting things together,The sort of place you might want to go to when you want to buy your first new car, and your second and third, the sort of place you recommend to your friends because the're reasonable they don't try to pull the wool over your eyes .Couldn't do any harm to any one who took up the scheme the manufacturers could even re-con their own cars,just imagine that -'VW reconditioned MKII gti Golf 1800cc 3 years mechanical warranty £2995 low road tax(for now) B.S Recon .Recycled Green machine plan.
|
It is obvious when you go to other countries (typically ones with drier climates) that many vehicles can be kept going much longer than is typical here. I've been to Morocco and have seen pics of other places in the middle east like Syria and Iran and there is definitely a means there to keep all sorts of cars going especially ones from the 1980s. My understanding from Morocco was there was a healthy export trade of French second hand cars esp the Peugeot estates (not many of them left I imagine) which look as if they could more of less go indefinitely.
I think for this idea to get off the ground there would need to be a bit of a change in most people's often misguided desires to put shed loads of money into newish cars. I am sure quite a few people "overspend" on a newer car because of the fear of how to buy and maintain a decent older one. But then that "overspend" keeps glass palace dealers in cheap suits and foreign holidays...
|
I agree that cars can be kept going a lot longer than they are at the moment - but I'd suggest that many of those in countries like Morroco, and Romania etc, would not be safe on our roads...
By all means keep stuff going longer, but we need to ensure that safety is not compromised - this sort of idea would just prove an excuse for some people to do the bare minimum to keep the car going....
|
I don`t want to go back to following cars emitting puffs of smoke like old Fred used to do in team meetings with his pipe 30 years ago...
Followed an old diesel from the bygone era recently and shut the cabin external air supply off even though it was two cars in front. Remember your car headlining getting grimy after years in the `traffic of the day`?
Think I will stick with modern emission systems. I wouldn`t have said that a while back but just returned from the petro chemical smog of Hongkong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
