according to KPMG.
On the basis that those who opt out of having a company car as a result of high taxation end up driving a higher-polluting older car.
www.kpmg.co.uk/news/detail.cfm?pr=3044
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That thread title is a bit of a willful misinterpretation of that press release, Mapmaker. Are you arguing that the company car schemes should be compulsory?
The people who opt out aren't buying higher CO2 cars than they would have done if the car tax rules didn't work on CO2.
But the new cars that are being bought by car fleets are lower CO2, thus reducing the average CO2 of the national fleet.
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That thread title is a bit of a willful misinterpretation of that press release Mapmaker.
No it is not.
Changes made by the Government in 2002 to the company car tax rules [have caused] a number of people chose to opt out of the company car regime and buy their own cars instead.
KPMG research** suggests that 52 per cent of employees who opt for cash instead of a company car use the money to purchase a second hand car, with emissions estimated at 30-40 plus grams per kilometre higher than the average company car driven by their colleagues."
Are you arguing that the company car schemes should be compulsory?
I am not arguing anything at all. It's a headline-grabbing press release.
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So where are your alleged higher emissions coming from? Or am I misunderstanding you? You seem to be saying that the change in the rules has lead to higher emissions.
The people who opted out, what would they have done if the rules hadn't changed? Do you think they would have gone for lower CO2 cars in the scheme?
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They are not my higher alleged emissions.
"KPMG research** suggests that 52 per cent of employees who opt for cash instead of a company car use the money to purchase a second hand car, with emissions estimated at 30-40 plus grams per kilometre higher than the average company car driven by their colleagues."
>>You seem to be saying that the change in the rules has lead to higher emissions.
No, for the third and last time KPMG are saying that.
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Of course there are huge vested interests from the fleet industry driving KPMG's comments.
What they fail to consider is the whole life effect - I would argue that building more and more new cars to satisfy the typical company car 3yr change cycle is worse for the environment overall.
A study in the US showed the Jeep Cherokee was more environmentally friendly than a Toyota Prius over its whole life.
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KPMG aren't saying that at all.
They're saying that people in company car schemes have lower CO2 as a result of the changes. And that people who opted out have higher CO2 on average than those who are opting in.
They then make the fanciful leap to say that if those who opted out opted back in again, then X amount of CO2 would be saved, on the assumption that those who opted back in would get the same cars on average as those currently in. That's a bit of a stretch.
If you think they're saying that CO2 has gone up, you're reading something that's not there. And I've just gone back and read it again to check I'm not missing something. But no. All they're saying is that those who opt out aren't as green as those who opt in. So they're saying that the scheme is working and making those in it choose lower CO2 cars.
Bill,
I agree that having company cars is not very green. But they're some of the main buyers of new cars, so if you're going to have them, at least get them to buy green ones so that cars entering the second-hand market are greener.
And that Jeep thing was obvious nonsense. There were all sorts of made up numbers in there, the most blatant being the assertion that a Jeep would drive three times further in its life than a Prius.
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KPMG aren't saying that at all. They then make the fanciful leap... That's a bit of a stretch.
Indeed, as you correctly note, they are saying that.
If you think they're saying that CO2 has gone up you're reading something that's not there.
Why indulge in conjecture as to what I might think. Just stick to reading what I wrote. Did I write that?
Edited by Mapmaker on 27/02/2008 at 11:47
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No conjecture - you specifically just wrote that you think that KPMG are saying that CO2 has gone up:
>>You seem to be saying that the change in the rules has lead to higher emissions.
>No, for the third and last time KPMG are saying that.
Did you struggle with reading comprehension at school too?
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Can we stop having a go at each other before the thread degenerates :-) Ta
I could have opted out of the company car scheme and got a fair bit of money doing so. Before my allowance went up I figured it was marginal if I would be better off either way so stayed in the scheme.
Now I have gotten to like modern diesels for the laid back driving style (relying on torque) and good fuel economy (saves me lots). If I opted out I'd probably want diesel and be foolish not to go for nearly new... but I'm not sure I'd trust a nearly new common rail diesel because of the previous owners. If I went for petrol I'd also go for forced induction smallish engine for fuel economy.
So personally if I opted out CO2 would be the same and maybe even lower. I'd not be one of these thinking "oh I'll go an get a 3.0l V6 petrol" because we get paid mileage allowance based on grade if you opt out. So if you bought a petrol gas guzzler you'd get the same money per mile as you would in a diesel super-mini.
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>>No conjecture - you specifically just wrote that you think that KPMG are saying that CO2 has gone up:
Where? ;) <--- a smiley just to prove that I'm only trying to find out where the misunderstanding has arisen and that I'm not having a go.
I promise you that I didn't. Please point out where I did.
Edited by Mapmaker on 27/02/2008 at 12:35
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" According to KPMG?s Company Car team, since 1999 there has been a decline in the number of company cars, with HMRC figures indicating 400,000 employees having opted out in preference of purchasing their own vehicles. KPMG research** suggests that 52 per cent of employees who opt for cash instead of a company car use the money to purchase a second hand car, with emissions estimated at 30-40 plus grams per kilometre higher than the average company car driven by their colleagues.
If all 400,000 employees that have opted out opted back in ? assuming they currently emit the national private car average of 191g/km**, driving a typical distance of 18,000** miles per annum and they drop to the average company car with emissions of 165g** on the same mileage ? the UK would save total annual CO2 emissions of 301,000 metric tonnes ? the equivalent to just over 1,700 Boeing 747/8 flights from London to New York."
So, over the period (1999-2007?) approx. 200,000 (0.52 x 400,000) fewer new cars have been bought by companies as a result of car tax changes? Is the CO2 output for the production & distribution of those vehicles factored into the calculation?
Are they also suggesting that if those 200,000 secondhand cars hadn't been bought by 'dis-illusioned' company car drivers, they would not have been bought by anyone else (& so not driven) ?
The other assumption I see in the report is that those who opt-out & buy a new car (48%)
are assumed to have bought a car with average (191g/km) CO2 output - how do they know this? If this national average (191g/km) includes all older cars, you can be quite sure the new car buyer (who opted out) bought a car with signifigantly less than 191g/km.
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