I have always felt that it was a bit of a myth that different tyres of a similar quality could or would make a significant difference to the way a car feels on the road. OK, I could have been persuaded that it was possible to tell the difference between very cheap and cheerful ones and top of the range products but would have readily scoffed at there being any appreciable difference between similarly priced mainstream brands when fitted to an ordinary car being used ordinarily if you see what I mean ?
When I bought my car it had Continentals on. Like most people I tend to change two tyres at a time and just always replaced them with Contis to keep it matched up. Not sure why really. Anyway, when the rears needed to be changed a couple of months ago, for some reason I couldn't get my usual tyres at a convenient time and not particulary reluctantly, had Pirellis put on. These didn't feel any different. However, when the fronts were due last week I then had matching Pirellis put on. Before, I go any further I would stress that I have never felt disappointed or disatisfied with the handling or general feel of the Contis.
What a revelation the Pirellis are. The whole character of the car is transformed for the better. The steering feels very much more direct and whippy, the turn in feels much more accurate and I feel much more "in touch" with the road.
Now, the thing is, we are not talking about a sports car here, or track day velocities, just a workaday diesel estate being used for everyday purposes. Amazing really how much better it feels. I would not have believed it and would have been first in the sceptics queue. I suppose there must be something in the folklore after all !
I would be interested to know if anyone else has had a similar experience and also wonder if it possible that certain cars just happen to "suit" certain types or makes of tyre ?
As a footnote the car is a Mondeo 3 TDCI Estate Ghia X with a tyre size of 205/50/17
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I first felt this dramatic change you describe back in my younger days with the old ventora, it had michelin x's on it which lasted forever but were lethal in the wet, and i mean handling of a tea trolley, 4 wheel steering, absolutely terrifying; goodyear had recently bought the unisteel out (i think that was their first real steel belted radial) so i bought a set, and the transformation was amazing, wet handling superb and predictable on a car with massive torque for the day, but very light on the rear, quite astonishing difference.
That taught me a lot, and i've never taken the rubber for granted since and nor will i.
We bought the hilux in sept 07 and it came on a certain tyre new (high grade H rated), well they feel awful, very skittish in the wet and if i said that even in the dry the vehicle felt too big for them would that make any sense?
Well i'm a bit of a winter tyre fan, and bought some Vredestein wintrac's for the cold season, put them on in November and yes its a completely different vehicle, safe predictable handling, swmbo throws it all over the place and it sticks like the you know what, also a much smoother ride, the originals wont be going back on for the summer and have already been replaced.
I agree completely with you shoespy, but many will disagree and tell us that the cheapest junk from the other side of the world is every bit as good.
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my last car came new with mitch tyres
1st replacement all 4 got swapped for 4 new mitch, and yep improved a bit, only natural as the old ones were worn by then
2nd replacement put 4 contis on and it was a revolution, like a totally new car, a whole lot betta
bog standard family hatch
so yep your experience isnt that unusual, although u sure u had the pressures correct before the change?
tyres make a big difference, i also think some tyres suit some cars betta than others, its not just a case of which is the best tyre, its which is bests suited to the car
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I do agree that tyre choice can make a big difference, but, I think this is probably a subject area that's among the most bewilderingly complex to be touched on in this foru
m.
The tyres themselves are very complex devices, working usually in a non-linear manner (double the input, and you don't necessarily double the output). But, no more about yres - the tyres are actually the easier part of the problem!
But,the most difficult of components to model or predict is the drivers interpretation and response to the total vehicle's dynamics. Not everyone would agree that tyre A is better than tyre B. Each would have their own reasons for preferring tyre A to tyre B.
Most serious manufacturers will be investing time and money modelling and simulating driver response. It's currently not a very well advanced field, and there's some potentially interesting work to be done there IMO.
If you were to test (ordinary, not F1!) cars for their ultimate cornering force, you would find, remarkably, that there's really very little difference between any of them. All that changes is how each car/tyre combination communicates to the driver, and how each driver responds to this feedback.
I tend to prefer a tyre which begins to skid quite gracefully, I don't like tyres which give the impression of being more grippy and then letting go suddenly when you've built up a large cornering force. (I also don't like over servo'd braking systems that instill false confidence).
This personal and individual reaction to cars makes a manufacturer's job quite difficult. For my part, I can't believe that people get into Pugs, Citrons and Renfaults, and actually like driving them - the pleasure from driving a mkI or mkII VW Golf also passes me by, I hate the heavy controls and excessive steering friction. But, that's just me!
Number_Cruncher
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I buy (or replace with ) the best tyres I can. Never buy cheapo brands - whether this is any good or sensible, I don't know because I've nothing to compare against - if that makes sense.
I can only assume that the above posters' anecdotes show that buying 'value' brands does them no favours & that as soon as they switch to a premium brand their vehicle performs to 'spec', as it were.
That is, their vehicles were performing under spec. & buying decent tyres just made them normal. Never understood what people hoped to gain with cheap tyres - like buying a cheap crash helmet if you're a biker.
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>I buy (or replace with ) the best tyres I can.
I think that is exactly shoespy's point. ie. What is the best tyre for your particular vehicle and driving style/expectations? If you have a choice of ten different tyres how do you know which is "best"?
Kevin...
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A four wheel alignment as well as new tyres always seems to take about 50k off the Mondeo's steering and suspension.
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Shoespy, further to DP's comment did you have the front tracking done at the same time as the new tyres? Correcting the front alignment can make the car feel much more direct.
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NC wrote
>>
I tend to prefer a tyre which begins to skid quite gracefully, I don't like tyres which give the impression of being more grippy and then letting go suddenly when you've built up a large cornering force. (I also don't like over servo'd braking systems that instill false confidence).<<
NC has also previously said that he wants the tyre behaviour to be predictable
And I completely agree with that.
The OP has compared two premium brands - yet many of the posters here have chosen to restate their positions on the premium via unknown brands. why ?
The OP appears to be stating that one particular premium brand wasn't that good on his car.
I think many cars (and bikes) are sensitive to the brand of tyre - which suggests that mixing brands is a bad idea. It can certainly be worthwhile changing if you are dissatisfied with your current tyres.
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.. If you have a choice of ten different tyres how do you know which is "best"?
It's difficult. The life (even of 'bad' tyres) makes such comparisons a question of memory - people quite often remark (as here for example) that when they fitted a new brand things were transformed in some way - well, new tyres will often feel better when compared with old worn out ones. I change cars too frequently (every couple of years or so up to now..) to be able to build much useful data - one (4) tyre change on average per car.
So my simple criteria are brand & type - although not infallible, on average tyres get better the more expensive they are & some brands have built a reputation over decades.
One tip I've picked up here though (from DP) , is the wheel alignment check - I'll get that done next time for at least the front, if not all round.
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You are of course correct WB. This is a very subjective area. I am also concious that prevailing weather and road conditions can sway a judgement. I suppose it could also be influenced by how alert / well the driver feels on the day.
The only, admittedly weak, defence I can put forward for my hypothesis is that I change my front tyres appoximately every six months and the rears about once a year due to a high-ish mileage. I suppose, therefore, that my memory of the feel of the previous tyres when new remains reasonably fresh.
I think, though, that the central puzzle remains to me as to why two products which are allegedly of a similar standard ie Continentals v Pirellis should feel so dynamically different on my particular car. For all those who are currently pleased with their Contis, please do not think I am bashing this brand, it's just a personal view which has taken me by surprise.
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Yes SS, I'm perfectly willing to believe that some tyres work better with particular cars, I just wish that I could make those judgements - but my mileage (or relative lack of..) & car changing 'habit' makes comparisons difficult. Your experience with Contis vs. Pirellis may be down to how they react to toe-in/out parameters, the rebound resistance through tread/sidewall, relative softness/hardness of the tread compound or how well (or not) they deal with surface water and dampness. Maybe there are even more escoteric reasons - e.g. the springing & damping rates of your Mondeo may match the rebound from the tyre more perfectly or the steering 'quickness' (or ratio of steering wheel turn to front wheel turn) may provoke less understeer on one brand or another, due to tread composition etc. , etc.
Perhaps manufacturers could provide this testing (or maybe they do..) & give us a definitve list of say, the best tyre for handling or longevity or whatever. My hunch is that vehicle tyre approval from vehicle manfrs. is more to do with commercial or business reasons than with absolute dynamic or other engineering-y criteria.
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Couldn't agree more. The Mondy came with 3 'Linglongs' and an 'Event' and handled like a shopping trolley full of bricks on wet roundabouts. The bloke at my local tyre centre treated me like a royal visitor when I went in to re-shoe it with 4 Good Year Excellence tyres. Corners like a housefly now. I'm sure the cheapo Chinese ones are OK and meet legal standards etc, but you can't scrimp on the only part of your car that's in contact with the road.
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Very interesting responses, thanks all.
Just to reply to a couple of detail questions. ...........
No tracking or other mechanical adjustments were made between switch of tyres.
Tyre pressures are identical ( checked weekly )
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I had a 1990 XR3i (from new) and it pulled to the left, the pull being most noticeable when gently accelerating on a straight and level road. The dealer checked the tracking etc and it still pulled to the left. I decided to do a few experiments myself and swapped the front wheels. It then pulled to the right! I put the wheels back in their original positions and the car (as I expecteded it would) pulled to the left once more. I explained this to the dealer and they agreed to fit new tyres of a different make all round under warranty. In point of fact they fitted new tyres and wheels direct from Ford. This completely cured the problem. I concluded that all makes of tyre are not as good as one another.
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In addition to the physical aspects, there's also the psychological effect of having just parted with what can be a significant amount of cash.
With many large tyres costing the wrong side of £100 each, having all four corners replaced at once can very easily provoke a "oh yes, that's much better" response :-)
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Tyre characteristics change as the tyre wears - new tyres have 7mm of rubber tread flexing as well as carcase and suspension movement - worn tyres have only 2-3mm of tread to flex.
Whether a tyre improves with age/wear or not depends on the car, it's suspension, the tyre's characteristics and the driver's needs/expectations.
Car maker's marketing and journalistic road tests go to the nth degree about each car, including comparisons between models in the same range but the customer often gets whatever expensive brand tyre is flavour of the month when the car is actually built. On the other hand some makers have an exclusive deal, always fitting the same tyre but never one that customers rate.
Of all the new and nearly new cars still on OE tyres I've had, not one has impressed me enough to replace with the same brand - and never wanted to go back to the original after trying something different.
My Astra-G (mk4) had Michelin XH1 - noisy, wore quickly - replaced by Goodyear NCT5 - better - finally replaced by Goodyear Excellence - much better.
My Outback has Yokhama Geolandar 900b - wearing quickly, noisy on some surfaces, but very re-assuring in cold, wet conditions. It'll get a set of Pirelli Scorpion STR for next winter, hopefully better in all respects.
I find the US Tire Rack website useful, but many tyres available here aren't available in the US so don't show on their reports. Also be wary that some US tyres are made to a different specification to their identically named European cousin.
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Well, my Outback has Bridgestone ER300s, and I'm much happier with them than the Yokohamas it used to have.
How many BRs I wonder, change their tyres for winter / summer, i.e. have purchased 8 tyres for the one vehicle?
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How many BRs I wonder change their tyres for winter / summer i.e. have purchased 8 tyres for the one vehicle?
I got to the point of planning that, even bought an extra set of wheels - but changed the Astra to the Outback which has "all-season" tyres on, which seem to suit my needs so I'll stick with all-season from now on.
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I was in Italy earlier this week and was mildly surprised to see quite a lot of cars with winter tyres on. It was not in a mountainous region but in fact the Adriatic coastal area roughly opposite Rome. ( Ancona, Civitanova, Pescara etc. ) This area is known to have a mild winter but still the locals choose to use winter tyres. I wonder if there is some legal requirement or whether I just happened to see a lot of cars which were visiting from the Alpine regions.
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I'm looking forward to the day when my current tyres wear out. The dealer I bought my S80 from had fitted some *very* cheap Chinese Full Run HP199s all round.
They are awful, they won't balance right and the side walls seem to have no strength to them, despite being a so-called Extra Load design. Park on the slightest bump and the tyre looks flat , it deforms so much. There's loads of vibration at speed too, most un-Volvo like.
I can't wait to get rid of them and replace with a decent well-known brand. My old V70 with Goodyear Eagles on was no problem at all. Grippy, predictable in all weathers and worn well too.
I just need to put enough miles on these horrible Full Runs to justify getting rid!
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Had the "nasty" Chinese made Interstate Touring ST on my Passat for around 10000 miles.
Not had any problems with them. Only a few thousand miles life left on the evenly worn fronts despite the wear index of 400 and trying to drive more gently.
Only problem is that the current price has leapt up to that of better known brands so unlikely to buy them again.
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>>well, new tyres will often feel better when compared with old worn out ones.>>
I reckon this is the key and that if Shoespy drove his car on new Contis and then new Pirellis he might struggle to tell much difference.
I have had 4 types of tyre on mine in order:
Conti Sport Contact II
Conti Sport Contact I ( i.e. the original not Mk II )
Bridgestone RE040
Falken FK452
All premium brands (Falken are not so well know here though are a top brand in much of Europe, Japan etc).
Subjectively I felt that the Conti Is were better than the IIs and also lasted better, the Bridgestones gripped well though did not wear well, the Falken's offer great steering response and seem to be lasting as well as the Contis.
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More than willing to accept that I might be dreaming Cheddar, but I have had, let's see..... four pairs of new Contis on the front of this car in the past and can't remember feeling any noticeable difference other than to my wallet ! This time, however, I'm just sure I can. I really wasn't thinking about it, as I said my view up until now was that it was all hyped nonsense anyway. It's just that it is like driving a different ( better ) car.
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Not doubting that there is not a difference at all S, just that the you are not comparing new for new and if you did the difference would surely be less marked.
What model Pirellis are they? And how much did you pay if you dont mind me asking that is?
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Aye, maybe you have a point !
P7's - £111.10 each :-(
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Falken FK452 205/70/17 93Y Extra Load £153.45 fitted - for two!
Edit: :-)
Edited by cheddar on 25/01/2008 at 15:15
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Sounds like a good deal ! "70" profile must make for interesting handling tho !
( don't worry, I know it's a typo but I couldn't resist it ! ) ;-)
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I can second the Falken FK452. Having never heard of them I looked at various reviews after your recommendation Cheddar and bought a set for my Mondeo. Very reasonably priced, good wear, and grip etc as good as many of the well know more expensive makes.
Just bought a set of Falken ZE512s for my wifes Xsara and immediately felt a huge improvement. I paid £156 for 4 from Camskill Tyres on t'internet and got my local garage to fit them. Saved a further £50 approx by doing it that way rather than the garage supplying and fitting them. Reviews for those tyres are also very good.
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Falken tyres have been around for a few years and are a decent enough tyre. They are a budget brand out of the Sumitomo/Dunlop stable.
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Falken tyres have been around for a few years and are a decent enough tyre. They are a budget brand out of the Sumitomo/Dunlop stable.
No, they are a premium brand tyre in Germany, Japan and the US though have never been marketed actively here, even falken.co.uk or whatever it is is run by an agent.
US site:
www.falkentire.com/#/Home/
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PS: I think Sumitomo produce tyres for Falken in Thailand though to Falken's spec, my Falkens however are made in Japan.
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No they are a premium brand tyre in Germany Japan and the US though have never been marketed actively here even falken.co.uk or whatever it is is run by an agent. US site: www.falkentire.com/#/Home/
Cheddar
Falkens have been sold in the UK for at least 10 years. In 1997 I used to live in the same road as their rep for the Midlands region - he used to drive a Vectra with big 'Falken' stickers down the side and across the back! He changed jobs and now has his own catering equipment company.
They have been popular with the Subaru/Mitsi Evo/FTO modding boys etc for a good while because they sell the lower-profile high speed-rated tyres at low prices (although they have gone up a lot recently). You sometime used to see them as part of a wheel/tyre upgrade package sold by the likes of Rochfords - but I think they are getting a bit too dear for that market now.
Falkens are made by Sumitomo (Japan) who also own other brands (Dunlop and Ohtsu to name but two). Dunlop are their premium line. They are 'number 2' to Bridgestone. Most Falkens are made in Japan, but some variants are made in Thailand.
I looked at the falken.co.uk site and its obviously not the official UK importer - looks like a grey importer or reseller who grabbed the URL....
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Falkens are made by Sumitomo (Japan) who also own other brands (Dunlop and Ohtsu to name but two). Dunlop are their premium line. They are 'number 2' to Bridgestone. Most Falkens are made in Japan but some variants are made in Thailand.
Aprilia, Falken goes back to the 40's as a Japanese premium tyre brand, the company was bought by Sumitomo a few years ago though until recently they kept manufacturing total seperate.
In Japan, Germany and the US Falken are a premium brand right up there with Michelin et al, in those markets Falken is certainly the premium line not Dunlop.
EDIT: I dont think they have ever had there own presence in the UK, perhaps your neighbour worked for an agent?
Edited by cheddar on 26/01/2008 at 08:40
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Falken have been around in this area for years.
Just goes to prove what a "top" brand name means on a tyre? In this country we (generally) assume Dunlop is a top brand and Falken as 2nd quality. Whereas in Europe generally its the opposite.
Its not the brand name thats important imo; its how well the tyre performs versus price.
But it takes all sorts.
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Only problem is that the current price has leapt up to that of better known brands so unlikely to buy them again.
According to CNN, a world shortage of shipping containers, and the ending of Chinese gov't subsidies for tyre manufactures will mean an end to such very low prices. I think Michelin, Pirelli etc will be breathing a very big sigh of relief!!
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Some of the posters are saying about comparing new with old, and thats fair comment.
I'm not though, as in my post above i'm saying that the OE fitment on the hilux have been completely beaten in all aspects by an equivalent quality of tyre (the OE i took off at 1500 miles) and they dont hold a candle to the replacements. This not comparing michelins to a set of ditchfinders, its comparing like for like.
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Some interesting comments on this subject.
Predictably there are some entrenched views where brand x is the best becaus I have had them for years. Op's comment about another brand actually making him think that he might have changed for the better and the inevitable slanging of the cheapo tyres (possibly correctly but not definitvely so imo).
What has never been mentioned by anybody is that they have spent a lot of money on brand y tyres and hate them. probably because they have spent a lot of money they automatically think they are better. I have experienced a case of this personally where a new set of brand c were fitted (top quality if name is to go by) but I hated them and sold them on cheap to get rid of them. I could only describe them as having felt like driving on marbles continually.
As for cheap tyres and handling. Its far more important that any driver drives to how his/her car handles than to assume every tyre is optimum for every driver/style/condtions etc.
And just as an aside I know a local rally competitor to me who can beat me hands down in any car/tye combination continually. In other words he can drive on cheapo tyres better than I can drive on "top quality" ones. And I am not a bad driver by any stretch of imagination. Again its driver, not tyres, that can make the difference! Anybody who has an accident and blames his tyres is actually sayinghe was driving without due care imo.
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I remember my first drive of an Austin 1100, what a revelation (I'd never driven a Mini), like it's on rails. Then it was put on Dunlop groundhogs (radials were still a mystical entity) WOW! They didn't last long.
Yes I agree, tyres can totally change the character of a car, but I think I'm giving my age away ;>)
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My memories of an Austin 1300 supplied new with Dunlop C41 cross plies, was that it was a frightening thing to be in - (this after a Mini on radials) - they lasted 6K.
A set of (radial) Pirellis that I can't remember the type of transformed it for the better.
This in 1968.... FJC 417F... probably.
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