Prompted by a piece on Newsnight tonight, although I've had similar thoughts for many years.
The basic premise is: do traffic lights help or hinder traffic flow & safe passage.
My view is that there is an an inverse relationship between the amount of traffic regulation/control & the rate at which traffic (for traffic read 'all highway users') flows & co-exists in an harmonious & safe manner. For me it's like the the 'drugs question': more regulation seems inevitably to exacerbate & increase the probelm which it seeks to cure.
The admirable (in some ways...) Swedes & Danes have experimented with various forms of traffic de-regulation, though on a small scale, and found, (surprise surprise!!) that traffic flows increase & all classes of road/highway users get on spiffingly - with reduced rage, conflict & accident.
It will probably never happen here of course - to do so would be to accept Homo Sapiens in his/her true sense & know our true nature - sadly not attainable this side of Utopia (or Erewhon - if you're so disposed).
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they hinder. have you ever gone down the A316 around Twickenham? There are roundabouts there and then suddenly these damned traffic lights sprung up and cause complete carnage.
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Absolutely agree with you WB. Like most forms of regulation the starting point seems to be the assumption that common sense has ceased to function in the collective intellect. There does seem to be a modern obsession with rototising the public, assuming ignorance and constraining free will to a quite ridiculous extent. Cynically, I feel it is far more to do with self-protecting public sector jobs than any real safety or traffic management issues.
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I could see in the short term and in isolated locations there could well be a reduction in accidents and conflict at junctions by removing traffic control. This generally happens anyway when traffic lights fail - everyone takes care in an unfamiliar situation.
Having the same set-up permanently I think is much less likely to work in the UK, with some aggressive drivers who drive the route every day flying through, horn blowing at anything who dares to get in the way and sooner or later a nasty prang.
Traffic light control generally makes it clear who is in the wrong when there's an impact. In a free for all it's much less clear. Cue road rage.
Traffic lights were introduced in the past for good reasons. I suspect the main reasons were accidents with people confused or unreasonable about when they should give way.
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I saw that Newnight piece too. Unmarked roads without signals are a tempting thought. In a lot of African cities there are market areas and others where motor traffic has to mingle with ambling pedestrians, livestock etc. in considerable density. Anyone thought to be driving aggressively or threateningly will be sanctioned by those around him, drastically sometimes. Seems to work fine.
However I can't help wondering whether London would work without these aids. My guess is that permanent gridlock and numerous assaults would be the immediate result of their removal. Perhaps though it is a system that could be introduced bit by bit in some areas. Indeed I believe it is being tried in one of the roads between Kensington Gore and Cromwell Road. Still haven't been there though.
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FWIW, Fermoy in Co. Cork was on the main Cork-Dublin road until it was bypassed last year. Whenever traffic became congested, the Traffic Corps used to switch off the traffic lights in the centre of the town. This always improved traffic flow.
The road layout was two lanes coming from Dublin to a T junction, one lane turns left for Waterford, one right for Cork, with local and Cork-Waterford traffic crossing the main flow at right angles, and Cork-Dublin traffic using its own filter lane.
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For those who did not see it on Newsnight, it was very thought provoking and can be replayed here
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.s...m
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Who needs 'em?
The person who parked on top of one at the end of Langford Lane in Oxford today. Took me 20 minutes to get out of the airport.
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I saw this item on Newsnight and thought it would be great experiment to try out. The trouble in London is that Transport for London, an unelected quango, are responsible for all traffic signals. They prefer to have them everywhere to create congestion, so that motorists continue to pour money into Kens coffers.
My worry is with the few who get confused whenever a set is out. The etiquette of giving way to the right goes out the window. For a system to work, there needs to be signs errected to remind those that might upset the flow. The crossed traffic light signs are not good enough. We can see they are out. Give give way to right signs would be a better sign.
I can think of many junctions in west London that would benefit from switching them off.
Hey, Boris give it a try!
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Cyclists certainly don't need traffic lights - most completely ignore them...........
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A roundabout on a dual carriageway outside my office (A63 Colton roundabout near Leeds/M1 J46 if anyone knows it!) has been full of roadworks for months now while they resurface, re-build the middle bit (with a lane through the middle) and add traffic lights at each entrance and at a couple of points around the roundabout.
Before, it was always busy but quick to cross. People didn't hang about and all was fine. I was never aware of any accidents or anything. Now, it takes 2 - 3 times as long to get across (even more frustrating out of rush hour when you're virtually the only car there, but have to wait at 3 sets of lights to get across) and is much more dangerous. People are constantly jumping the lights - one nearly hit me the other day - and the queues behind the lights can be terrible.
Get rid I say!
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A (complicated) junction near my office was remodelled with loads more lights. Now there are always queues, except last week when the lights were out of action, and all the traffic flowed smoothly.
They could have rpelaced at least 4 sest of lights with a roundabout. Why they didn't I don't know. It doesn't help that the lights are sequenced so that as the first set goes green, the second goes red, so you can never travel through all 3 without stopping.
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Sinclair Gardens roundabout in Dunfermline - a masterpiece of road-planning incompetence. There are lights every 90' but these are compounded by pedestrian crossing lights just before the roundabout so you end up with people going on the green from the pedestrian crossing straight onto the roundabout or the reverse; people blasting across in front of pedestrians 'cos the lights on the roundabout are green. And then you get cars which can't leave the roundabout as the pelican's at red and blocking the way for others.
It worked just fine before the traffic lights went in.
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It's interesting that road planners (or whatever fancy titles they award themselves these days..) have a vested interest in turning up to work each day with a 'plan' - this probably involves more constraint & regulation on a 'problem' interchange or road 'negotiation point' , together with a budget that needs spending (or next year they'll have less to play with!).
The solution is always more constraint & less discretion for the road user - we're being increasingly 'infantilised' - and we react by becoming more infantile in our negotiations with other road users - road rage & selfish behaviours or just 'toddler' tantrums?
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Have you ever read Local Integrated Transport Policies?
The ones I have read say that they are 'installing extra traffic lights to reduce average speeds' and thus 'reduce serious injuries and deaths within the community'. They apply to the government for money on a project-by project basis, and this is what they are awarding money for. If they have a sensible plan, it would mean losing jobs, no new equipment, frozen budgets etc...
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In the vast majority of cases, traffic lights should be removed from roundabouts. Have you noticed how a normally congested roundabout suddenly flows miraculously freely when the traffic lights pack up?
Cheers
DP
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Of course, without traffic lights (or a bridge or underpass) pedestrians have no chance of crossing the road at a complex junction. Not all road users are in cars!
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Last night travelling back from Reading, 22.30, via Camberley and onto the A30, must have waited at least 8 sets of lights, with absolutely no one moving-they should be switched to a flashing amber light after the rush hour ,say 19.30.
There's nothing more annoying than waiting at lights to an industrial estate at the weekend, or 05.00
Also need to be able to turn left on a red, IF CLEAR we're all adults and make generally good decisions.
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For many a year now I have been convinced that traffic lights in this country are programmed / positioned to cause inconvenience to the motorist.Lights tend to spring up like weeds for no apparent reason at junctions that flowed well before lights were introduced.Traffic lights in other countries are definately used to ease congestion, even being switched to amber during off peak times ie 10 PM to 5 AM so that the junction operates eficiently with less stoping for empty junctions.
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>> Also need to be able to turn left on a red IF CLEAR we're all adults and make generally good decisions.
Couldn't agree more - it works well in the US, and would certainly reduce congestion. More opportunities too to run over the cyclists that come up your inside and turn left (or right, or go straight ahead) on red anyway!!
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Last I drove in France after a certain time (7 pm I think) traffic lights revert to flashing amber. A great system IMHO. And yes, I concur that traffic lights seem to be flung up willy-nilly in areas where a decent mini roundabout would be way more effective. I remain convinced that there is a scheme to INTRODUCE congestion so as to be able to levy yet more revenue from the result. A kind of self fulfiiling (or should that be filling) prophecy
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I'd like to see most traffic lights scrapped, with a few limitations:
* Pelican crossings retained and new ones installed where required.
* Flashing amber at off-peak times. Combine this with the well-established signalling "hierarchy" as we have in Spain: at many major junctions, there may be traffic lights and an apparently superfluous STOP sign: not really superfluous, it becomes operative if traffic lights revert to flashing amber or fail. If no stop sign, then markings painted on road, e.g. give way triangle, comes into force. Unless there is a traffic cop, who naturally overrides every other signal.
I'd also like to see traffic lights INTRODUCED to replace speed humps. I'm referring to radar-triggered traffic lights, also common in Spain, which let you through at a pre-determined speed, but go red if you're speeding. Far too sensible for UK roads? (Far too unprofitable for "Speed camera partnerships" more like ...)
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Would agree with the Flashing Ambers outside peak times, but even then there are certain junctions where the full sequence is needed most of the time.
One thing that can make a difference is the detection gear fitted into the roads on the approach to lights - recently several sets of lights on my commute have had new gear fitted and they change a lot quicker to green than they used to when you approach them.
Edited by b308 on 18/01/2008 at 18:35
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TFL in London are a law unto themselves. They wont grant better traffic management for the common good. Ken dances to their tune. I just wish they would give this notion a try.
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Well, several posters have managed to link traffic lights to the evils of public sector jobs - quite an achievement even by the standards of the backroom!
I don't think many motorists like traffic lights - but they are a necessary evil IMHO. Recently the M69/A5 roundabout near Nuneaton (MIRA) has been re-modelled and lights installed. Its a vast improvement on just having the roundabout. At peak time traffic would queue on the M69 - that seems to have largely stopped.
I can think of quite a few light-controlled junctions that would be chaos at busy times without lights. Usually the problem comes if you are on a busy side road trying to join a busy main road. The through traffic won't let you out. At a town near me there was a large housing estate with bascially one exit road and no lights. In the morning there used to be huge queues backing up the estate roads as right-turners could never exit into the main road. Eventually lights were installed and things seem to work OK.
Don't forget either that a lot of lights in town are for ped. crossings.
I think the 'free for all' system can work OK, but only where traffic levels are light.
Unfortunately I think we have to have 'tight' regulation of traffic - be it lights or speed limits, or whatever else. The notion of individuals behaving responsibly, making the right decisions, driving appropriately to the circumstances etc is a very nice one. Unfortunately experience is that a significant enough percentage of people don't follow this path and chaos ensues.
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The driving 'genes' develop & propagate via the survival imperative. If dozens of driving generations have come to rely on traffic lights & assocaited control measures to do their thinking it's hardly surprising that once the cage is opened, carnage will ensue. I wouldn't argue with that for one moment.
What I would argue with though, is the logic that assumes that the withering of personal responsibility & growth external control will cope with the novel situations we all encounter every day & seeks to destroy the intrinsic survival instinct & co-operation 'gene' we all possess.
No, it's not as simple as flicking the traffic light off-switch or burning off the continuous white lines, but neither is it, imho, as simple as turning on more switches & painting more lines. The only place that ends up is with 'Johny Cabs' & average-speed enforcement - or worse!
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