snipurl.com/1vp0x
Scary.
Edited by PoloGirl on 22/12/2007 at 13:08
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I don't think any driver improvement scheme is going to help.
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I have every sympathy with the lady, must be very difficult living with this.
Bet there have been some dangerous moments caused though, bad enough when a very large slow moving (say 30-40mph) mobile crane or something is on a busy motorway, it causes some very sticky moments sometimes 1/4 mile behind, this poor lady must have caused mayhem.
I wouldn't want to return to public transport (possible oxymoron) and the delights of being on foot in our not so safe towns.
Bet her mpg figures are appaling, must have been in second gear all day.
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Prison is the only appropriate sentence for such wilful regard for others - and has done it before !!
My wife is frightened of driving on motorways, perhaps not clinically so. She never drives on them which seems a sensible approach all round.
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Prison is the only appropriate sentence for such wilful regard for others - and has done it before !!
You can't be serious? I suppose it would send a strong message to anyone else who was thinking of having a mental illness?
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Prison is the only appropriate sentence ... You can't be serious?
Not prison. But if a blind person drove on the motorway knowing he was wholly unfit to drive there, that would be taken pretty seriously.
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!!You can't be serious? I suppose it would send a strong message to anyone else who was thinking of having a mental illness?
There is no indication that this woman was too 'mental' not to know that what she was doing was seriously dangerous, and as such 'you honour. I move that she be wholly guilty of a very serious crime, perhaps 'intent to endanger life'.
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Maybe the law ought to be changed to allow learner drivers on the motorway (with a qualified instructor, I hasten to add, and some kind of authorisation sign on the back of the car) so that they can gain some experience of driving on motorways. This way at least some experience can be gained before learner drivers pass their test and then are legally allowed to drive on a road that they've previously not been allowed to.
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I have sympathy with anyone with any mental illness. Nice to see have we so much christmas spirit on this forum that prison is the answer!
But if driving is such a problem why has the doctor not suggested selling the car and using taxis etc? Unless you do sufficient mileage it is not worht owning a car? and to be scared of using it is going to result in an accident sooner or later.
Do Vosa need to be told of a medical condition such as this? Do her insurers know?
I am afraid that banning her may be the best answer for all, including her. may then be forced to sort alternative transport solutions.
But there for the....... etc.
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Driving schools do motorway lessons after you pass. I took them up on this and it was money well spent. The car had to remove the learner driver bit on the roof as it's obviously illegal for a learner to be on the motorway.
That unfortunate woman probably needs to be banned as she one day cause an accident. I wonder if she drives at more than 10mph on A roads?
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who ever gave her a pass on her driving test should be in prison!!!
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This lady shouldn't drive. She is a danger to herself and others. Slow, hesitant, jerky drivers are very dangerous and also disturb traffic flow to a disproportionate extent.
The sad thing is that this particular person was noticed because her driving style was so extreme. There are many others probably just as dangerous who somehow don't come to official notice. It's a minefield out there.
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Perhaps motorways should have a minimum speed limit, as well as a maximum.
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L\'escargot.
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A 40mph minimum would be reasonable in clear conditions - although through force of circumstances I frequently find myself travelling much more slowly than that.
As for allowing learners on the motorway, I'm not sure there's any need to change the rules. I did my initial learning in rural south Oxfordshire, but the test centre was in Oxford. That meant I spent quite a lot of my lesson time on the dual-carriageway A34, so fast roads have never bothered me. (The urban jungle, on the other hand, I find much more intimidating!) There can't be many learners that don't have access to a comparable road to practise on.
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The amazing thing is that this woman plucked up enough courage in the first place to drive on to the motorway.
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The amazing thing is that this woman plucked up enough courage in the first place to drive on to the motorway. i just hope she has the courage to hold her hand up and say"yep i was the cause of that 24 car pile up officer"
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I don't dispute that there's likely to be a 24 car pile up but it's debatable whose fault it would be. If there was a truck parked in lane 1 would you blame somebody else if you ran into it?
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If there was a truck parked in lane 1 would you blame somebody else if you ran into it? not at 10 mph !!!
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Surely the point here is that this lady, knowing that she is mentally unfit, failed to surrender her driving licence as the law clearly requires and wilfully put others at great risk.
That is, or should be, sufficient grounds for a charge carrying a custodial sentence.
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On one occasion I got stuck behind a golf buggy driving along the motorway at 15mph.
A more serious problem are the mobile cranes which trundle along the motorway at 30 mph. They are frequently seen on the M53/M56 in Cheshire, and always at 8am when the motorway is at its busiest.
There really needs to be a minimum of 50mph on the motorway in good conditions.
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Police will be interested in anyone in a car doing less than about 40 mph on motorways.
I noticed in Portugal they actually have minimum speed signs on their motorways (IIRC 80 km/h), especially on the outside lane of uphill sections to stop wagons overtaking each other.
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A good idea; but 90+% of drivers wouldn't know what a minimum speed sign looks like.
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All people are not all capable of the same things otherwise there would be little differentiate the human race. Some people are paranoid about driving on the motorway just as others would never make a good salesperson. It is not a right of birth to drive on a motorway. If people do not recognize this themselves then action must be taken to make it so.
I think that any speed less than truck speed on a motorway should be prohibited except in exceptional circumstances such as large loads, cranes etc., but not doddering drivers who act as a rolling road block.
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In Italy [ last year anyway ] the 3-lane autostradae had minimum speeds posted, blue with white numbers, 60 kph in centre lane, and 90 in outside lane. Heavies banned from the outside lane. { Max 150 kph.} Excellent arrangement, I thought.
A couple of years ago, I watched a TV programme about the German autobahns. At that time, in order to get a full licence, the learner had to demonstrate safe driving at autobahn speeds up to 200 kph. By the time a learner went through all stages of obtaining a driving licence, the cost was averaging 1500 euro. Our local driver testing office is near a motorway, so the one-hour practical test includes a leg of motorway driving. { Believe me, driving on British motorways and Italian autostradae is relaxing luxury compared to our lot. }
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Perhaps motorways should have a minimum speed limit as well as a maximum. --
AFAIK it already does - 30 MPH
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She's done it before. She's aware of her limitations. Ban. So, what's the big deal? The syetem is working as it ought.
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Jeez, give her a break, we're not all cast from the same die. If someone asked me to hem a wedding dress I'd probably do it very slowly. Cut her some slack, motorways aren't fun for everyone.
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While bestowing the Christmas spirit on all and sundry, anyone who uses our laughable motorway system should realise the danger of letting loose someone so craptified (copyright) of using the road system at such dangerously, man-running, speeds.
The many enjoyable and finger pointing TV shows like "worlds worst learner" etc., should eventually let the penny drop that driving is a skill and a driving licence is not an expected entitlement.
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I think a total from the road should be enough, why should she be allowed back if she can't face it?
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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A woman has been banned from driving for seven days after she drove along a motorway at speeds lower than 10mph. Stephanie Cole, 57, of Fishponds, Bristol, repeatedly jammed on the brakes as she straddled the hard shoulder and inside lane of the M32.
Cole, who admitted driving without reasonable consideration, was also ordered to take another driving test. North Avon magistrates said they took into consideration the fact that Cole has multiple sclerosis.
Banned for 7 days! - does that serve a purpose?
Surely there is something more that could have been done (and I do not mean a fine) than a 7 day ban and a re-take of the driving Test?
{Moved to original discussion on the subject - DD}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 04/01/2008 at 12:33
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The key is the re-take of the test - I guess she is unlikely to pass!
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It sounds to me she is very unlikely to pass. Ever. And one wonders how she passed in the first place.
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one wonders how she passed in the first place.
Perhaps her condition has worstned since then.
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>>>>>>North Avon magistrates said they took into consideration the fact that Cole has multiple sclerosis.
This is a really sad story of a normal persons life being blighted and restricted through an illness that could hit anyone of us.
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Quoted from the article:
"pleaded guilty to driving without reasonable consideration by letter yesterday at North Avon magistrates' court. The case was adjourned for her to appear in person as she is likely to be banned."
Just out of interest, do people always have to appear at court if a ban is likely? What purpose does this serve? I would have thought that if pleading guiltly by letter then there would be no need?
Edited by moonshine {P} on 04/01/2008 at 13:47
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Obviously she ought to be banned from motorways. They are not the Queen's highway, and are deliberately built with different purposes and rules from ordinary roads.
But she should be free to amble along an ordinary road in an invalid carriage, just as in a gentler kinder age people commonly drove at 10 mph pulled by horses. We'll be locking up pedestrians who slow the traffic by using zimmer frames next.
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The bench doing it right for once.
Clearly this stubborn lady just will not be told to give up driving on psycho-medical grounds - a decision that most of the older generation have faced and successfully coped with - and they've taken the decision for her.
She will be much happier driving an electric scooter down the pavement mowing down the pedestrians. At 8mph, not a lot slower either.
The carnage that a double line of trucks encountering a car weaving about at 10 mph on an motorway would cause is near unimaginable. If she cares that little for the well-being of all other road users, then she doesn't qualify for a driving licence.
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"This is a really sad story of a normal persons life being blighted and restricted through an illness that could hit anyone of us."
Absolutely, my sister was killed by this vile disease and she was a truly enthusiastic driver. It broke her heart when she had to give up her Nissan Maxima V6. Of course, once the transport was taken away, she could no longer work as a nurse and without passion and purpose her decline was fairly rapid. There was some kind of free minibus for disabled in our area but politics and lack of money put an end to that too.
I have happy memories of me and her in my XJS and how she would squeal in delight when I drove in such a manner that the trip computer would show 1mpg for a few seconds.
I haven't read Ms Cole's story but I suspect she needs help and support rather than being cast aside as a joke or an inconvenience to others.
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"I haven't read Ms Cole's story but I suspect she needs help and support rather than being cast aside as a joke or an inconvenience to others."
Totally agree in her needing support BBD. This is yet another example of this country letting down those in need. I can see why people leave! Transport should be provided - either subsidised taxis or door to door bus services. Not free as their car cost something to run.
If she was able to drive on normal roads and not motorways then sadly she's brought this onto herself. But if she drove slowly on all roads then the police would stop her in the end. My mother in law was stopped for driving too slowly once - they breathalised her.
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I haven't read Ms Cole's story but I suspect she needs help and support rather than being cast aside as a joke or an inconvenience to others.
What he said.
A shame that society today more or less forces you to have a car (be honest, would you be able to go without forever?) and this lady is saying goodbye to part of her independence.
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A shame that society today more or less forces you to have a car (be honest would you be able to go without forever?) and this lady is saying goodbye to part of her independence.
Yes, that very true - particularly as this is connected to a nasty, progressive, disease.
However, it is a decision that we all must face [if we survive] and 99% of drivers do acknowledge at some point that they are no longer fit to drive - albeit under pressure from their nearest/dearest.
This lady's arrogance [displayed by her "sign"] over-rode her perspective and the bench took the sensible view of stopping her before the near-inevitable tragedy.
Some "nervy" ladies are just not psychologically suited to the demands of driving. A sad fact in these transport-starved days - but true none the less.
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I've now read the article and must alter my view slighlty:
1. She drove because she had to have an ink cartridge straight away... don't buy that. There are other ways to get them anyway and if you couldn't get there easily ask a family or friend to get it. In the meantime ask a family or friend (or the local library) to print there.
2. She didn't want to use the motorway but knew no other way of getting to Staples... eh. Get a map and drive on A-roads.
3. The GP was largely complicit in this. Treating her for 3 years for fear of driving. Did they as her GP mention this to DVLA? I bet not.
Her condition is sad and I wish her the best. But I don't buy her reason for needing to drive on a motorway she feared for an ink cartridge. That's not a life or death item - could even buy it online.
And she was driving at 10mph or less and still finding the need to brake. Driving slow is one thing but braking suddenly as well..
I actually blame the GP a lot in this. She does need help. But if she can combat her fear of driving then she can probably pass a test.
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"Her condition is sad and I wish her the best"
So do I, lets hope things improve for her in the future.......
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2. She didn't want to use the motorway but knew no other way of getting to Staples... eh. Get a map and drive on A-roads.
Yup.
3. The GP was largely complicit in this. Treating her for 3 years for fear of driving. Did they as her GP mention this to DVLA? I bet not.
That is not the function of her GP.
Driving slow is one thing
She could perhaps buy a mobility scooter instead of a car.
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correct me if i'm wrong, but officially a motorway is 0 - 70 mph. So by travelling at 10mph she was within the limits?
Many times on this forum mention has been made of either slow or stationary traffic, but were they prosecuted?... No!
She wasn't an agricultural machine, a learner driver, or a three wheeled vehicle, so was legally entitled to be there, on the signs at the enterance to the slip roads onto the motorway (where the above is displayed) there is no mention of a minimum speed limit.
she has been victimised!!
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legally entitled to be there on ....>> >> she has been victimised!!
she was driving in a fashion that was likely to cause significant danger to other road users
whether or not she is ill etc is immaterial. The police, CPS and criminal courts are not generally there to deal with the ill, that would be down to the NHS and Council Social Services depts
she has my sympathy for her illness and i'd be prepared for my taxes to be put to better use to help her......however she has no sympathy whatsoever for her extreme selfishness and recklessness with her driving that could cause another human being to die or be seriously injured
motorways have prohibited traffic... that traffic is prohibited for primarily the reason they cannot travel fast enough to be safe......why would anyone else want to drive at such a low speed they fit the category of banned traffic on safety grounds
if she sold the car and saved the: depreciation, cost of new car eventually, servicing, insurance, petrol etc....she'd have a significant pot of money available for taxis or her local minibus service
would we be prepared for a blind driver, driver with acute angina, severe epilepsy etc to drive, just because we're sympathetic to their problem...i hope not, because innocent people will end up dying
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I see a pack ganging up on the easy victim here.
Yes it was wrong, yes it was dangerous and yes a ban would be good. But every day I see and am put at risk by numerous deliberate and and highly dangerous instances of reckless driving by people who would claim to be in full command of their faculties - be they on the phone, just in a hurry or showing off in their big fast motor.
In a society where these v. dangerous people are normally not in my experience caught and jailed (nor even stopped) it is a little sad that one quite vulnerable person who saw a need to drive in this way, is attacked so ferociously.
Driving into London yesterday on the M4/A4 I saw in the space of 5 miles 11 drivers using their mobiles, inc. 3 trucks one of which was swerving so violently that there was a queue of cars refusing to attempt to pass on a dual section of road! Now why do such low lifes' routinely get away with dangerous driving but the old lady gets hauled up and the works? - easy pickings may be.
It's a strange world we live in eh ;)
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This poor lady could well have been involved in a serious accident - as could have others - and not just a new bumper job. It's a curious logic that sees the prevention of that possibility as victimising or lack of compassion in some way. If a relative of mine had been the subject here, I would have thanked the deity (..and authorities!) heartily & hoped the catharsis would lead to a re-assessment of her needs & options. It's often the case that events culminating in action by the courts, in what could be loosely described as 'social interventions', focus the right agencies & authorities on that problem. Perhaps, in retrospect (if not already) this unfortunate lady will see this court appearance & censure as entirely positive & helpful to her long term needs.
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Some "nervy" ladies are just not psychologically suited to the demands of driving. A sad fact in these transport-starved days - but true none the less.>>
Well said Mr Cholmondley-Warner! Gels should stick to what they are good at, such as decorating cakes and making pretty cushions. It's a biological fact ;)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/01/2008 at 19:49
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she admits--driving terrifies her
never mind 10 mph---how did she pass her driving test?
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who was her driving examiner... stevie wonder?
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May I remind you that you can be registered as "blind" and still legally drive;as long as you can read a numberplate at the required distance your eyesight is legally acceptable for driving even tho' you may have acute tunnel vision and the numberplate is all you can see.
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At last, a comment from BRAKE. Surely this case wouldn't follow their "excessive speed is bad" thoughts, would it?
"This case sends out a very strange message to drivers. Mrs Cole was not breaking the speed limit or endangering anyone with her actions, yet she received a seven day ban, when we commonly see drivers caught travelling at 80 or 90mph get away with a fine and three points."
From here: www.crash.net/motoring/roadcars/news/article/20405...l
I look forward to my 7 day ban for doing 80mph on the motorway this morning.....
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Since there is a minimum speed on motorways, she *was* breaking the speed limit.
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Since there is a minimum speed on motorways she *was* breaking the speed limit.
I've never seen one? There's a limit on vehicles (like 50cc scooters that can't do more than 30mph) but no lower limit as far as I know.
I'm happy to be proved wrong of course.
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Since there is a minimum speed on motorways ..........
There's a minimum speed only if there are signs indicating the start and finish of the minimum speed stretch of road. The start sign is circular with white numerals on a blue background and the finish sign is similar but crossed through with a red diagonal line. tinyurl.com/2fjj57 They're not very common. I've never seen one. Have you ever seen one, pyruse?
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My wife hates motorways, does not drive on them unless she has to, but does 60-75 when she does!
Her sat nav is set to avoid them!
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The only minimum speed limit sign I've ever seen was on a tunnel entrance - Blackwall IIRC.
On a related topic, when I started driving in the mid 80s I'm sure there were big signs at the foot of motorway entrance slip roads detailing the types of vehicles prohibited, I can certainly recall the one at M1 J11 as I used it every day. When did these signs disappear? I can't remember the last time I saw one.
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There are some minimum speed signs on the Dartford tunnel as well.
As for this lady, the retest will sort out whether she can drive now or not. In some ways I hope not, but public transport in Bristol is not great.
And for those of you suggesting she gets a map, it is *very* difficult to get to Staples in Bristol without using at least a small section of dual carriageway at the end of the M32.
Joe
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"This case sends out a very strange message to drivers. Mrs Cole was not breaking the speed limit or endangering anyone with her actions yet she received a seven day ban when we commonly see drivers caught travelling at 80 or 90mph get away with a fine and three points."
Moronic. A closing speed of 60mph is safer than a closing speed of 20mph? The woman may as well have parked her car in lane one!!
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Could have sworn that there used to be a 30 mph minimum on motorways - evidently no longer; a brief search of the HC drew a blank.
As for the quote from BRAKE or BERK or whatever they call themselves, it merely reinforces the view that
a) they are a bunch of total cretins;
b) in their opinion the only safe speed at which a car may travel is 0 mph; and
c) according to them we should all walk everywhere wearing fluorescent padded clothing, crash helmets and goggles in case we fall over and hurt ourselves, and nappies in case we see something that frightens us and we soil ourselves. Oh, and GPS trackers in case we get lost.
BAH!
"Not endangering anyone with her actions". Absolute drivel. At 10 mph I'd be overtaking her with ease on a pushbike. And I'm really unfit, too.
Can someone better versed than me in this sort of finger-wagging twaddle please explain how doing 60 mph below the speed at which the traffic may legally and safely travel isn't dangerous? I promise to open my mind really, really wide and try to understand.
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>>Could have sworn that there used to be a 30 mph minimum on motorways - evidently no longer; a brief search of the HC drew a blank.
IIRC there was one 30mph min sign in existance (maybe at the Dartford Tunnel.)
IIRC the question " What does it mean?" was removed from the driving test many years ago as it was thought to be unfair.
www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/legal-advice/speedin...l
Still has words about the blue signs.
www.learning2drive.co.uk/test4.htm
However if you really, really want a blue 30mph sign ( or any other) you can buy one, manufactured in accordance with BS873. £50.30 incl VAT
www.health-safety-signs.uk.com/road-traffic-signs....l
A comprehensive look up of images.
Even one for a forum member "Beware of low helicopters" :-))))
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what a bunch of ill informed spanners Brake are, if that release is an accurate portraytal of their combined thoughts
Motorways and fast roads are incredibly dangerous if you're going against the norm... and this lady was...badly
it just goes to show how little they know i.e. do-gooders who think they know the subject matter, but in reality haven't the faintest idea
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Seems like they`re a benefit to the community to me
www.brake.org.uk/index.php?p=7
Edited by oilrag on 07/01/2008 at 19:30
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hmmm,
maybe i need to tone my rant down a bit then. I still think they're more than misguided in that advice, but obviously need a bit more respect for the good bits they do.
Thank you for reminding me
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I think it's a shame that they ruin their reputation with claptrap as spouted by that sad excuse for a spokesperson when it appears that they also do some good work too.
Why do they not promote the decent stuff that they do rather than coming out with completely bonkers statements as they have?
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A quote from `Brake`
"Brake welcomes the use of ANPR technology and believes that this is the right step towards catching
and stopping people driving illegally on our roads. Brake
would like to see ANPR used extensively throughout the UK, with all forces carrying out more random stops and checks of suspect vehicles."
end quote
That`s why I like them ;)
Edited by oilrag on 08/01/2008 at 14:52
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Sorry too slow with edit...
Brake seem to both support Police and community, but are also seem able to give a balance to those of us who have had that `certain little lecture` on being caught speeding.
www.brake.org.uk/index.php?p=567
I admire them for that too, because if they don`t highlight it who will?
At least the lady doing 10MPH seemed to have Psychological issues, unlike a well known Police Chief, not seemingly doing 90MPH in a 60MPH limit for fun.
Regards ;)
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At least the lady doing 10MPH seemed to have Psychological issues unlike a well known Police Chief not seemingly doing 90MPH in a 60MPH limit for fun.
That's the point though. 90 in a 60, depending on the road and the conditions could be slightly dangerous, averagely dangerous or indeed pretty dangerous
10mph on a motorway, unless it is very congested and everyone is doing the same, will almost certianly be lethal
and yet someone doing the former will get hammered and someone doing the latter gets a high degree of sympathy and a light sentence, albeit a re-test
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90 in a 60, depending on the road and the conditions could be slightly dangerous, averagely dangerous or indeed pretty dangerous
So can 60 in a 60 - "it's a limit, not a target".
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Off at a slight tangent ........
tinyurl.com/2lcx2u
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im disabled and have only recently returned to driving. i spent 6 years relying on others and public transport for getting around i have to admit that only 4 of those 6 years was actually down to the illness the other 2 were a lack of confidence in both my abillity to drive and a loss of confidence.
once i had my license returned by the DVLA following a gestapo type medical examination i didnt return to driving straight away i purchased a car and had 3 driving lessons with a fully qualified instructor (i guess i needed a professional to tell me i was ok on the road) since then i have returned to normal driving but to begin with i only went on short journeys though the village to the shops and back. Now theres no stopping me (except on my bad days when getting out the front door is challenge enough nevermind driving).
personally i think that should anyone be returning to driving following illness they should really be assesed not just medically but also in practical driving i know for me the lessons i had did help restore my confidence.
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Welshlad:
I know someone from near your part of the world, with similar challenges.
I'm seriously concerned, not with their ability to be competent, but with the "ability" of the average driver to cope with the manner of their driving.
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As reading through this discussion, thought i would comment upon the part of the learner drivers on motorways. Personally i cant see why they are not allowed to use them, i mean how can you gain experience of driving on them without doing so and best time to learn would be under correct supervision. Perhaps it could become something have to do ie 2 lessons or so after have past driving tests cos that way the people are being supervised and so get some experience of motorway driving and also they are not learners then.
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the only problem with insisting that learners get motorway experience BEFORE they pass the test is that....... there are no motorways north of Stirling! And none on any of the islands (including Isle of Wight, Isle of Man etc). Anyone living in Lerwick has further to drive to find a motorway than someone in Edinburgh has to reach the M25 !
Maybe what we also need is insiting that learners learn how to drive on single track roads - as some of the A roads are in the northern most parts of Scotland (and a couple of back roads in Wales and Northern Ireland)
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Same applies to Norfolk and Suffolk. Nearest Mway stops at Cambridge.
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I just had a thought about this subject:
Let us suppose a responsible driver going along the motorway normally sees that he or she is approaching such a 10mph crawler.
The driver realises that the frawler is at great risk of being rammed, so instead of passing he or she slows down behind the crawler, puts their hazard lights on and switches on their headlights to ensure the rear lights are on. The intention being to "shield" the crawler until the police arrive.
The driver then holds position far enough behind the crawler to be able to accelerate into the gap safely should the driver of a third car coming up behind fail to react, but not so far nehind that another car might slip in between them not realising what the responsible driver is doing.
My question is - when the police eventually arrive, would they "do" the responsible driver as well as the crawler?
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This could result in well meaning suicide!
Far safer to report to police at the first opportunity.
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How would i do that?
Even though it would be an emergency I couldn't use my mobile to summon them - I'm cloth eared!
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Personally i cant see why (learners) are not allowed to use (motorways)
I don't want learmers on the motorway. The point of passing a test is that they have gained experience in handling their cars, and of general driving. Motorways are not very different, especially from other fast roads like dual carriageways, and learners should easily be able to accumulate enough experience to start them off without going on the motorway. Imagine a timid inexperienced learner venturing onto the motorway on their second lesson! No, thanks! That's what things like the Pass+ courses could be good at.
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