AHH! but its ok to have useless bumpers cos it doesn't matter that even a minor "bump" could cost the motorist thousands, its good for business! - but you cant have a decent bumper anymore to help protect the "estimated" second largest purchase of your life, the "Do-Gooders" class them akin to Bull-Bars, and that would effectively negate all thier good work in helping to bring in legislation to ban them, and of course would render 20mph zones virtually useless.
Billy
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I have complained repeatedly and bitterly about these silly ornamental panels on the ends of cars, basically a substitute for lipstick and about as much use as lipstick even in a 1mph impact. Many people have given me gyp for it. But I don't care. My own car is sufficiently outdated to have squashy proper bumpers. Care for a little parking shunt DD? :o)
People should sue car companies for the cost of repair on the ground that cars that won't survive a straight-on 5mph impact without damage are unfit for purpose.
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The modern bumper is there to save your life. Sorry about that minor inconvenience. We shall return to normal service of 35mph fatal accidents ASAP.
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< Ulla>
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The modern bumper is there to save your life.
I always thought not walking out in front of cars did that? ;-)
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I am talking about hitting other cars,
Crumple cells save your life. A big tough bumper can not be matched with crumple cells.
You have a big tough bumper in a head to head 30mph collision you die.
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< Ulla>
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I'm fine crumple zones and pedestrian safety, it's the way they crack and fall to bits at the slightest knock that gets to me.
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I believe this headline should read 'Bashing into things when parking costing us £2 billion yearly'.
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This discussion makes me laugh a large amount of people on this message board rave and extol the virtues of Euro Ncap 5 etc... but when it costs them money they wine and moan.
Pedestrian safety Vs repair bills ( I have 2 small children), I know which I prefer.
Agree a stance and stick too it please
Carse
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I'm fine crumple zones and pedestrian safety it's the way they crack and fall to bits at the slightest knock that gets to me.
Pedestrians must be brittle in your neck of the woods these frosty mornings :-)
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Crumple cells save your life. A big tough bumper can not be matched with crumple cells.
The cars that aren't on the list must have big(ger) tough(er) bumpers that can withstand an everyday impact, and still have crumple zones though.
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Look if its a problem, dont hit things.
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< Ulla>
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It's no problem for me, I don't have a car anymore.
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Then you want to be hit by a car with the lightest softest fluffiest bumpers available. Sponge with a fur covering.
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< Ulla>
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Then you want to be hit by a car
I can assure you I don't!
But seriously, in any accident where it would start to have any relevance I'd be a goner anyway. Plus with the size of my bike I'd hopefully just fly over the top!
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Perhaps the headline should read marketing and vanity cost £2bn per year.
If we would accept and buy cars with a non-body colour bumper, one of the major costs; prep and painting would dissapear, along with all of the bad environmental aspects of paint production, solvents, etc, etc.
Number_Cruncher
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You have a big tough bumper in a head to head 30mph collision you die.
Cobblers AE. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.
With these modern things a couple of minor parking nerfs and the car looks like a Portsmouth brute after a rough night out with the crew of a battleship. And carries on looking like that until someone coughs up the truly ridiculous sums it can cost to replace them.
Nothing to do with crumple zones. And anyway cars always had those, although they were less scientifically designed in years gone by.
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Number cruncher got it right. We get the bumpers we wanted.
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< Ulla>
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More pap Ego - glad to see you're consistent ;-)
Older Volvo bumpers were proper solid things made out of girders (with a scottish accent).... but they were mounted on easily repairable and easily replacable crumple cans. Result = durability, safety and low cost to repair the crumple cans when dopey Mr international business man twangs the car in front...
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Modern cars are like computer printers. Cartridge replacement costs more than the printer itself!
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I talk pap so you can understand Whip whop.
Hey BBD here is your answer.....
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< Ulla>
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1989,
Step forward Rover`s Maestro. Mine split its fragile plastic front bumper by catching a glancing tap with an even lighter more fragile crisp carton in a gale at 20mph.
Contrasting that, I saw a Pug 205 really belt a traffic cone at 80MPH on a trip to Rheims and all that happened was a big cloud of dislodged road grit.
We overtook it with our eggshell front end quivering as it struggled to resist air pressure without caving in, Yup, no damage to the Pug at all.
Edited by oilrag on 17/12/2007 at 18:22
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I wish someone would rename them; they're obviously not made to be bumped!
Unlike 1970s Volvos and unlike their fairground namesakes, modern "bumpers" have the following features:
* Totally unable to deform and reform after any impact.
* Usually one piece, impossible to repair, always need replacement.
* Scuff and scratch easily. Fade in sunlight, especially if painted red.
* Shaped according to "stylist's" whim and often look grotesque - the last incarnation of the Ford Escort is a particularly vile example; early Japanese and Korean efforts at car building produced similar horrors.
* Combined with sloping aerodynamics of nearly impossible-to-judge end of bonnet, the impossible-to-see "bumper" guarantees impact with other cars in parking manoeuvres, front and rear.
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They are a very good earner for the manufacturer and his dealers...
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I think I am with Altea Ego on this and for very similar reasons....
I too had a bad accident in recent times and the rear of the hired Fiesta saved my life - it crumpled (not brilliantly) but saved us. We were hit by an HGV. Blue has seen pictures of the hire car afterwards.... it was not nice!
Cars since the early 90s (earlier?) have been designed to crumple and when needed these save lives. Trouble is when you crumple them a little bit at low speed they still need unbolting and replacing and that costs.
But from the costs posted above (e.g. CRV = £9000 at 15mph!) then costs can be crazy and not in any ones interest. Crumple zones are meant to unbolt. Had a bad impact in the previous model Passat with a car hitting the front of the Passat and buckling the front with a force across the front. As well as the front crumple zone needing replacing along with bumper, bonnet, one wing, a light cluster.... the chassis also needed straightening... total cost about £3600.
Edited by rtj70 on 17/12/2007 at 20:33
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by an HGV. Blue has seen pictures of the hire car afterwards.... it was not nice!
Actually, I don't think you ever did get around to sending them! :-)
I'd still be very interested to see them should you still have them though.
Blue
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Blue, I think I did email them to you direct. Might have had a response too but not sure. Not at my desktop (in a carp hotel in SW due to work) but could post. It's dark so Weston might be great tomorrow.
They show the little Fiesta is made of strong stuff. Anyone in the rear seats of normal height would have died but we're talking an HGV at speed doing the re-ending.
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Car buyers appear unconcerned by a triumph of style over substance.
The addmittedley ugly self coloured plastic bumpers on our venerable BX efortlessly demolished next doors garden wall taking just a few gouges in the process - Mrs B turned wheel 15 feet too soon while suffering from pregnancy induced brain atrophy.
I all but wrecked the Berlingo's far too smart colour coded rear bumper while denting the doors of a well concealed black Escort parked in an ill lit car park.
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>>>>>>>>>>>.Step forward Rover`s Maestro. Mine split its fragile plastic front bumper by catching a glancing tap with an even lighter more fragile crisp carton in a gale at 20mph.
Yes I remember these though I was lucky enough not to own a Maestro car though I had two vans with proper metal bumpers that were great!
A Fiesta driver in his Mum's car hit my van when it was parked. Result? Fiesta (nearly new) written off. My van just needed the plastic end cap sticking back on again with gripfill. Job done.
Gone are the days when I would reverse into a space until I nudged the wall behind me.
I'm too frightened the wall might 'phone an ambulance-chasing no win no fee laywer............................
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I have had a good read of the links provided by DD.
But I just cannot see how they arrive at the £2billion figure for replacing bumpers. They are not including costs of repairing other damage e.g. headlights, or other bodywork panels.
It seems to have been plucked from thin air just to make their story catch the eye of lazy journos. Unless someone can prove me wrong, of course.
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a lot of modern cars have a flimsy painted cover at both ends of the car but they dont have crumple protecters behind it like you imagine, so a 6mph shunt deforms this asthetic plastic covering and it splits and tears and is unrepairable.
these covers cost a fortune from the dealers and are only sold from say sel imperial if there are enough models on the road to justify stocking the part as a copy and acceptable by thatchham to be fitted as an insurance approved part (not cheap to get the stiffcat for this either)
a suzuki is a good example,its seen as small scale import still and so front or rear end parts are basically unobtainable unless ordered from the dealers at silly silly money
the days of girders have long gone unfortunately
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a lot of modern cars have a flimsy painted cover at both ends
>>unless ordered from the dealers at silly silly money
>>the days of girders have long gone unfortunately
bb and Aprilia seem to understand this corporate rip-off. And one or two others.
Everyone else is a) a fashion victim and b) a person who believes anything they are told.
Modern bumpers don't save your life, they don't save the more important bits of the car and they most certainly don't save you money. Apart from their speciously slick appearance they are unredeemed carp.
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In Australia, there is a rating system for cars which shows the cost of repairs for a set accident, and this influences insurance premiums.
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This is the bit that confuses me on all this and why the story might be a little carp...
Yes safety improved but insurance groups have dropped due to cheaper repairs, e.g. the extra E on an insurance group.
The original Focus was poor for crash reapair costs with indicators in the bumper and the revised model got a lower insurance group with revised light cluster. Lower group because cheaper to fix.
I think this original story is not down to bumpers at all but relates to crash structures which can be costly to fix. And that's fine. Don't have an accident. Bumpers are plastic and cheap but the crash structure behind them might be costly.
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Well in that case lud, I suggest you post me your driving license. I cant see how anyone who has such a dislike of anything to do with modern cars is going to survive as a driver for too much longer.
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< Ulla>
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I've been a Saab fan most of my life - my first 99 (bought in 1976) was a 1971 model that had metal bumpers. Mini ran into me head on (when I was parked) - I had to straighten my number plate - his engine was cracked in two by my bumper.
Later, a Hillman Avenger ran into the back of my 900. My (thick rubber) bumper self-repaired (OK, there was a two inch cut in the rubber - cost me £10 to replace the cover) in front of my main witness (a traffic cop!). Guy who ran into me - his car was written off - his engine ended up in the passenger seat.
In those days, bumpers could take lots of punishment - today it's all about giving maximum protection to the vehicle occupants and maximising the profits of the car manufacturer in providing replacement parts / repairing.
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Old-style steel bull bars, clearly the way forward. Now, does anyone make a set to fit a knackered Astra estate....?
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And it's not just bumpers!
Noticed how those once-fashionable "side rubbing strips" on doors (body coloured on upmarket models) have quietly vanished at the whim of stylists? The slightest ding in Tesco carpark and it's off to the bodyshop, paintshop and moneyshop we go.
Look at the tailgate of an Astra "G" estate: later models (e.g. mine) have no plastic protective strip at the bottom. It has been my luck to be rear-ended twice in my current car and on both occasions (once while parked, once while parking, neither case my fault) the tailgate was hit and buckled precisely there. The second time it had to be replaced.
Nice work if you can get it. Stylists, huh....
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Mini ran into me head on (when I was parked) - I had to straighten my number plate - his engine was cracked in two by my bumper.
Yeah of course it was. Because SAAB bumpers are stronger than a the lump of iron that a mini's engine block is made of!
My (thick rubber) bumper self-repaired .. Guy who ran into me - his car was written off - his engine ended up in the passenger seat.
Have you been drinking??
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AE suggests that I hate modern cars.
I love them. I just think their so-called bumpers are utter impractical carp knowingly foisted on us by a cynical, amoral industry. In other contexts AE is quite good at spotting and saltily denouncing this sort of thing. Why the failure of his cattle excrement detector in this particular context?
Edited by Lud on 18/12/2007 at 15:51
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Lud you dont love modern cars. You hate ABS, you hate Traction control, you dont like fancy gearboxes and you postively mistrust common rail engines. Most modern cars look rubbish to you, (your idea of a good looking car is a Mk3 escort).
All in all you do not look on motoring with anywhere near rose tinted spectacles.
Let me explain why I have no beef with modern bumper design.
I am a pretty careless parker. In the laguna I hit both the front and rear bumpers quite hard against solid objects With a nice chromed girder there would have been
A: a dent in it, or B: bent bumper irons or c: if i was really unlucky the shock would have bent the body where the bumper irons are fixed.
The laguna? Not a mark. The bumpers deformed and sprung out just as they were designed to do.
The touran. I reversed this into a lampost at neat 10 mph. The light fitting in the top of the lampost flew out and landed 15 yeards away.
The touran? Not a mark.
Now given these practical, real life, actual experiences, I will take these rather than your "faux" complaints about a global plot to rip you off (bumpergate if you will).
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< Ulla>
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So, AE, the Laguna had good bumpers? The French are practical and like you and me, careless parkers.
I don't hate ABS. I have had one slightly alarming experience with the ABS in an old Scorpio with new back tyres. It may well have been defective. The only other time I have felt it was deliberately, in a brand new Audi 80 on wet cobbles just to feel it working. But that car had superb brakes and although I hammered it the ABS was never needed.
I have never driven a car with traction control unless it be a Skoda Octavia 4X4 with some sort of trick transmission. That impressed me greatly, just once, booting it out of a slippery roundabout. On rails. Terrific.
I have never owned a car with CR although I love the refinement and oomph of those engines. I have read a lot of alarmist comment on it here but still don't quite know what to make of it. I like the idea of DSG, sure, but its longevity is unproven. How driver-proof is it, and how owner-proof? And see Aprilia on its weight and bulk.
Mark 3 Escort? Really AE.
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Aren't modern bumpers more about aerodynamics, pedestrian safety and lightweight 'covers' to hide the crumple zones in an attractive way?
I still don't how they can charge so much for molded piece of plastic though.
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Quote from the links in DD's post.
"Thatcham said concerns that strong bumpers could increase the risk to pedestrians did not stack up. The Toyota Auris, as well as providing the best frontal protection in the Thatcham study, had also achieved high scores in Euro NCAP pedestrian safety tests."
It seems to me that it should be possible to make bumpers which give good protection to occupants as well as to pedestrians, but which are also strong &/or inexpensive to repair.
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Those really robust unpainted plastic bumpers were the answer, but people wanted fancy and then the icing of metallic paint.
It rubs off too, onto the vans (robust unpainted) bumper, but never mind ;)
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