I read that the next Jazz has a "new" 1300cc Vtec engine.
Does anyone know if it will still have the completely daft tappet adjustment, whereby, at the third service,the inlet manifold has to be removed, at great expense, to check valve clearances, and then to shim if necessary?
I recently paid ca £573 for this service, which also included new front and rear brake pads.
I have had my Jazz CVT for just over 3 years, and it has been faultlessly reliable.
The gearbox is completely smooth in operation.
The practicality of the folding seats is unmatched.I use the facility frequently.
However,servicing at the dealer is expensive.
The valve clearance job is probably for specialists with small hands and many joints.
And finally, why is there no intermittent rear wipe, except on the Sport version?
Penny-pinching on what is a premium-priced supermini. If Daihatsu can include this on all the Sirions (cheaper cars) why can't Honda?
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 26/11/2007 at 18:13
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I think that the VTEC engines are manual clearance adjustment. Honda's reasoning for the manual adjustment is the engine can be built with tighter tolerance and the owner is repaid with better MPG - our does an easy (indicated) 50MPG in urban/town use and I'm very happy with that.
The valve (and 8 sparkplugs need changing at the same time) service is mileage dependant, and only needs doing at 25K regardless of age. In our case that was at 4yrs, which occurred a couple of mths ago. Cost of that service and MOT was £327, and my local dealer (TwoMills, South Wirral) isn't noted for being cheap, although that price was apparently 10% off for online "booking" (sent them an email and they called me back). On collecting the car after service I was told front pads need doing in approx 5-7K miles (I had expected them to ring and say they needed doing while it was in, so top marks there) and will cost £85. I've no idea how much rears are, but don't see why they shouldn't be similar. Did they also change your disks? If you also needed brake fluid changing (every 3yrs) then that would have added maybe £50.
Agree on the lack on intermittent wipe - a ridiculous omission. Side rubbing strips should be standard on a city car. Daughter's £7K Colt does everything Jazz does (new Jazz seems to look even more like 5dr Colt than the existing Jazz) and has intermittent rear and variable front wipe, but it does feel a cheaper car. Jazz is an aspirational purchase - I love the quality of it, but the price is insane already, and if they take it further upmarket then it will surely suffer.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 26/11/2007 at 18:14
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Thats 6 manifold removals and tappet check/adjustments and 48 new spark plugs (how many cambelts?) in 150,000 miles.
over that Mileage the Fiat Panda/Punto Vauxhall corsa/Susuki swift with the 1.3 multijet diesel only needs oil air and fuel filters.
(just refering to the engine design)
The fuel consumptions better, it (Panda)retails at just over £6,000 on fiatsupersaver and its galvanised.
sorry, not knocking choice of car. But I don`t know how Honda get away with it...
Regards
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 26/11/2007 at 18:15
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Honda quality,Probably means 'if you have to have it explained,you'll never understand it'
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 26/11/2007 at 18:15
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(how many cambelts?)
None - it's a chain (like the GM/Fiat diesel).
only needs oil air and fuel filters. (just refering to the engine design)
Thank goodness you were only referring to the engine. I hope our Jazz continues (touching wood) to be reliable, but it really does feel as though it will run for ever. 1986 Polo was the last small car we had that felt the same. Others we've been glad to get rid off.(Panda)retails at just over £6 000 on fiatsupersaver
Punto would be the more likely competitor, but you feel as though you're taking a gamble buying one. I did look at them a couple of years ago.
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Bill, I`m sure the Honda is a top notch car, its just that design of theirs for the tappets....
Regards ;)
Edited by oilrag on 26/11/2007 at 19:50
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Bill...If I have not drawn your attention to this site before, I'm sure you will enjoy it.
www.hondabeat.com/highmiles.php
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Bill I`m sure the Honda is a top notch car its just that design of theirs for the tappets....
The dealer told me that on the Jazz they *never* need adjusting. OK, I said, skip that bit then. "Oh no, sir, we still have to check them."
I consoled myself that perhaps it's worth paying in case anything does happen to the car and at least there will be no issue about full service history.
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Jazz is an aspirational purchase? Aspirational? You dont aspire to own a jazz.
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< Ulla>
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Jazz is an aspirational purchase? Aspirational? You dont aspire to own a jazz. ------
In my opinion it is. Any car that above the cheapest available has to in some way be aspirational. We also own a Colt CZ1 5dr a/c. They're almost identical looking cars, almost identical spec and do the same thing. Colt costs £7,500, Jazz costs £10,500.
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Can't argue with that. Aspiration is in the eye of the beholder.
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>>Aspiration is in the eye of the beholder.
>>
And perspiration is in the nose of the ...
;-)
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Only the British could have a discussion about a little runabout like a Jazz being 'aspirational'! LOL...!
I now realise I own an 'aspirational' pair of shoes (Ecco - definitely not the cheapest, and cost more than Clarkes). Wow, I'm beginning to see myself in a whole new light.....
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I now realise I own an 'aspirational' pair of shoes (Ecco - definitely not the cheapest and cost more than Clarkes).
I think that's a good analogy. Like the Ecco shoes, I aspired to the quality of the Honda over other cheaper superminis.
It's easy to scoff at such things, but there have been several threads on here from people who would like to buy a Jazz but can't afford one.
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It's easy to scoff at such things but there have been several threads on here from people who would like to buy a Jazz but can't afford one.
price has nothing to do with it
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< Ulla>
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No you miss the idea, you dont aspire to any run of the mill car. The jazz is a run of the mill car, expensive yes, reliable yes, efficient yes, but it is still none the less unremarkable and run of the mill.
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< Ulla>
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Before the thread dives like a duck entering the central vortex of a tornado...
`Aspire` is subjective........ ;)
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Small cars can be aspirational - but the Jazz isnt really one of them. The aspirational cars are the ones you buy on account of a non-practical reason, such as a Smart or Mitsubishi i.
Everytime I see a Mitsubishi i, I think 'really like that, want that, would pay the high price to have THAT car'.
If you have a thing for interesting small cars and in this day and age of high fuel prices and crowded roads, size is no barrier to aspiration.
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I'm working on making Skodas aspirational in this strange parallel universe I inhabit that is yet another mid life crisis.
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I'm working on making Skodas aspirational in this strange parallel universe I inhabit that is yet another mid life crisis.
I aspire to a Skoda far more than a VW, I mean, why would you aspire to pay more for what is essentially the same thing - just makes you look like a fool and I dont aspire to look like a fool ( altho frequently manage anyway! ).
New Fabia is rather nice it must be said.
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I'm working on making Skodas aspirational in this strange parallel universe I inhabit that is yet another mid life crisis.
Its not working PU
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< Ulla>
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In parts of the country where Honda is pronounced 'Onda, it isn't aspirational at all....:)
The list price of a Jazz may seem excessive: you could say the same about a Mini, but the resale value is that much higher and therefore it's not as bad a bargain as it seems, particularly if you buy on a PCP.
Actually What Car's tables give a 46 % retained value after 3 years for the basic Mitsubishi Colt - yet it's cheap to buy. BP may have got for his daughter something of an unsung hero.
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By the time our 1.4 Jazz reached 25,000 miles and needed the valve clearances checked it was out of warranty so I avoided the Honda dealer and skipped the valve clearance check.
A question for Bill Payer and Nuevo, did the valve clearances need adjustment at the service when checked? There is certainly no noise from the top end of our engine even now at 39,000 miles and I suspect this engine will go for many miles without any adjustment being required.
As for aspirational or not, expensive or not, our Jazz cost about £9500 4.5 years ago as a pre-registered car. It has proved cheap and reliable to run and we see no reason to exchange it for something else in the foreseeable future. Its load carrying capacity is phenomenal for its size. In our household it has replaced a LWB Nissan Terrano as the largest car and we don't miss the Terrano.
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We just had our Jazz serviced (paid for by the purchasing deal) and I suspect the neither the time consuming valve adjustments or plug replacements, meant to be done, have been carried out. Its difficult to check without removing the intake manifold, and the individual coil assemblies above each plug are best left undisturbed, I think, not having a manual etc. Why the doubt? Well, on the schedule of checks etc. the air filter, valve adjustment and plug-replacement tick boxes ignored, and the rocker cover bolts etc. are immaculate. Obviously these boxes are ticked by the receptionist, as there are no grease marks! They claim its all been done, and it was just an omission not to complete the sheet. Hmm.
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the rocker cover bolts etc. are immaculate.
They were on our car too - no finger marks, but some undisturbed dust. I'm very doubtful that they were done.
I'm really not that bothered - if you go to a main dealer you're buying the service stamp. The less they do to the car, the better - there's less scope for them to do something wrong then.
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I think I'll let it go, as its probably more trouble than its worth to start quibbling!
The valves are audible, but reasonably even, which is more healthy than inaudible! If the plugs start to foul, I'll pursue them, but it may be that they are simply able to use their socket sets properly, as they were on my Civic.
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A question for Bill Payer and Nuevo did the valve clearances need adjustment at the service when checked?
No. I mentioned that earlier - the dealer told me they never need adjusting, but still insisted they should be checked. They have to do a fair bit of dismantling to change the plugs anyway.
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No, I don't know if the valve clearances needed adjusting on mine, or if they were done at all, but, as Bill Payer says-We are buying the service stamp.
What a curmudgeonly bunch of cynics the Backroomers are!
And how did my question become a discussion about shoes?
I'm a Clarks clumpy comfy man myself.
I didn't see my Jazz as an aspirational purchase-it just seemed the best,most practical,on offer at the time.
I don't even think it looks that great, except at the front.
It also seems to be regarded as a bit of a pensioner's car-at least by my daughters.
Anyway, I have to agree with other Backroomers that 99.9% of BMW drivers are complete pink fluffy dice.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/11/2007 at 19:02
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pink fluffy dice here, well until Saturday when I become a Honda driver, who are all of course jolly nice chaps. ...................................assume I'll find the flat cap in the glove box :-)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/11/2007 at 19:02
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You are of course quite right. This is a motoring themed website and the footwear references are all majorly off topic, I am not prepared to take "sole" ( gulp, sorry all ! ) blame for this but some might find even shoes more interesting than valve clearances :-) I promise not to mention the "S" word again in case I get..... ahem....."booted" off the forum ;-)
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>>Honda's reasoning for the manual adjustment is the engine can be built with tighter tolerance and the owner is repaid with better MPG
I'm not sure this is quite true. I think that it might be difficult to engineer hydraulic tappets and VTEC together.
I think running at the higher engine speed typical of Hondas is also difficult for hydraulic tappets, because they are more likely to jack open under these conditions. This is probably easily overcome at the design stage by increasing the amount of oil out of the pressurised part of the hydraulic lifter.
Number_Cruncher
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Uncanny, Pezzer,you must have seen me around.
A flat 'at is necessary this time of year (even in bed) after SWMBO has done a number 2 with the hair clippers.
In fact,headroom is so good in the Jazz HJ could even keep his trilby on.
I don't think the Jazz revs much more than the 8 valve 75bhp Astra I had, and ran on LPG.
At 135000 miles when I sold it there did not seem to be any problem with valve burning, which I put down to the hydraulic valves maintaining adjustment.
So why no hydraulic valves on the Jazz?
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Neither the Jazz 1.2 or 1.4 engines have VTEC valve timing. I too am not sure why hydraulic tappets weren't used in these engines.
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