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The law imposes a speed limit of 4mph on mobility scooters used on the pavement - shouldn't the same speed limit apply to cyclists on the pavement?
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What appears to have been left out of the OP thread is the fact the cyclist had behavioural and mental health problems.
Edited by daveyjp on 16/11/2007 at 21:51
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Didn't notice that daveyjp. Might help to explain the extreme nature of the event. But doesn't excuse the behaviour of some sane pavement cyclists which is dangerous.
I don't really mind cyclists taking to the pavement quite often in London. They don't want to die any more than you or me.
But they aren't always cool. They go quickly without bells or lights and startle meandering old buffers. The advice in the OP is serious.
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I was once sworn at in a most offensive manner by a swerving cyclist riding on the pavement in my town's busiest shopping street, who came within inches of knocking me down - he had to remove the mobile phone from his ear first to make his displeasure fully known.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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They said he had learning difficulties. So the fact that he is a bit dim means he gets off lightly?
So, you'd like to see him, what, put in prison or something? If the man had learning difficulties, what sort of experience or lessons do you think he'd even understand being locked up with 'normal' prisoners? Also, calling someone with learning difficulties 'a bit dim' is highly offensive, to the people affected themselves, those whose relatives are so affected & to those who have an understanding (or compassion) of what it means.
In which case he is what we used to call retarded, and presumably should not be allowed to ride a bike.
Yeah, that's right, keep 'em locked up away from us 'normal folk' eh?. Do you suggest the same treatment for people without learning difficulties?
I am not sure I understand. Does that mean that when an Einstein parks on double yellow lines, (s)he gets life?
No, it means we make allowance & have understanding for those not blessed with the normal & expected abilities we take for granted. When you or anyone you know or care for has the misfortune to be afflicted thus, then I'm sure understanding will come.
This was a tragic accident, there's nothing to br gained by punishing the unfortunate more after the fact.
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As she walked from her drive onto the pavement an elderly neighbour of mine was run into by a cyclist on the pavement. She was knocked to the ground, and as well as suffering other injuries her hip was broken. Subsequently gangrene set in from which she died. The cyclist rode off and was never traced.
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L\'escargot.
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So, you'd like to see him, what, put in prison or something?
So what, you'd like to see him given a bike and allowed to kill again?
There should be punishment - how can you kill someone by your own recklessness and not be punished? No matter how bright or dim you are.
If his learning disabilities (doesn't everyone have at least one these days?) are really affecting his judgment so badly that he is a danger, and he has killed once, then he should be taken care of, somewhere away from the general public. I don't mean he should be shot or anything, but he should be taken care of. Padded cell?
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"Ruth Stead, Mr Green's fiancee, said Messen's actions had "wrecked people's lives".
"He has wrecked my children's lives, they have lost a wonderful step-dad, I have lost a fiance, his family have lost a brother, a cousin, a nephew.
"We have all lost a wonderful man."
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7098383.stm
I think some sympathy should also be afforded to the victim and his family. This is a tragic and highly unusual accident. The cyclist was prosecuted for the little used offence of "furious cycling" for which the maximum penalty is 2 years in prison.
Certainly the court must take account of the cyclist's circumstances but he was responsible for a dreadful tragedy and should have faced a prison sentence.
If it were someone driving a car down the pavement they would have locked the driver up and thrown the keys away!
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As a fully paid up lycra lout I would have to say that cyclists who ride on the pavement or jump red lights make me cringe. The police ignore pavement cycling and have done for years, which is why it is so widespread. Red light jumpers should have their bikes confiscated on the spot and crushed, as should adults who cycle on the pavement. Not only are they a menace but they foster the attitude among drivers that cyclists are a bunch of cowboys who don't deserve any respect on the road and the rest of us suffer because of it.
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The account on the BBC website makes clear that the rider was punished by a suspended prison sentence and a period of community service. He will have a criminal record and perhaps the community service could be, as suggested above, given supporting those injured in traffic accidents.
Crimes and accidents have victims who were loved by their families; time in prison is not to be served as a gesture of sympathy but to punish and reform. It seems the perpetrator in thiis case has shown remorse and, even after applying some scepticism for reports to the court, continues to suffer flashbacks etc
As my profile shows I'm daily commuter cyclist. The bike is a vehicle and belongs on the road, cycling on the pavement is anti social and unnecessary. But the comparison with driving a car down the pavement is false - bike and I together weigh around 70kg, car nearer two tonnes.
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Reminds me of a US TV cop show (NYPD Blue?) when young hero sergeant tore a sidewalk cyclist off a strip and a half. To my surprise, my partner's 14-year-old son cheered.
Cycling on the pavement is illegal and dangerous, but there are not enough deaths and injuries for the law to be enforced, and there is not enough social sensibility for the transgressors to realize that they are a widespread source of annoyance and anxiety. And how the middle classes have led the way -- well-spoken woman rides bicycle into small and crowded post-office lobby and gets stroppy when I remonstrate with her; whole family charges along pavement, forcing family (including 80-year-old grandma) out of the way and up against the wall -- but two of many examples I could cite. Just the opposite of the consideration and respect for others that lubricates most social interaction, and symptomatic of the ME--SELF--MINE culture that blights us these days.
At last, someone is speaking up:
tinyurl.com/29lrak
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Cycling on the pavement is illegal and dangerous
but not as dangerous as riding them on the road, pot holes , drain covers , taxi and bus drivers . oh and some car drivers to contend with, i always ride my bike on the pavement but not at 30mph like a retard
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Pavements are for pedestrians, if you want to use them walk. Anyone who finds cycling on the roads too dangerous should sell the bike and invest in a good pair of shoes.
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In some cities the relatively minor risk of a bruise from a bike/pedestrian collision is much preferable to what happens to the cyclist when a car hits them.
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They said he had learning difficulties. So the fact that he is a bit dim means he gets off lightly? So you'd like to see him what put in prison or something? If the man had learning difficulties what sort of experience or lessons do you think he'd even understand being locked up with 'normal' prisoners? Also calling someone with learning difficulties 'a bit dim' is highly offensive to the people affected themselves those whose relatives are so affected & to those who have an understanding (or compassion) of what it means.
Firstly I think you will find that most people in prison have learning difficulties.
Secondly it is far from clear from the news report what the condition of the cyclist was and how much was due to a clever lawyer pulling out all the stops to make him look like the victim. There is a clear distinction between someone who is mentally handicapped (from for example a brain injury) and someone who really is just a bit dim and ill behaved. The report suggests that he had a 'difficult childhood' and 'behavioural problems'. I very much doubt he was what we would call mentally handicapped.
To be honest I would have thought that most people who are mentally handicapped, or retarded (whichever is the appropriate term), can understand the basics of right and wrong.
25 year ago I did some voluntary remedial teaching of two teenage girls who did nothing but run around and swear. They were little thugs who had not been instilled with any discipline. These days people would say they had 'learning difficulties' and 'behavioural problems'.
In which case he is what we used to call retarded and presumably should not be allowed to ride a bike. Yeah that's right keep 'em locked up away from us 'normal folk' eh?. Do you suggest the same treatment for people without learning difficulties? I am not sure I understand. Does that mean that when an Einstein parks on double yellow lines (s)he gets life? No it means we make allowance & have understanding for those not blessed with the normal & expected abilities we take for granted. When you or anyone you know or care for has the misfortune to be afflicted thus then I'm sure understanding will come.
If he was not mentally fit to ride a bike, then he should not have been allowed to do so. If he was fit to ride a bike, then clearly he must be held responsible for his actions.
The news report states that he had been warned that he would kill someone before he went on to kill someone.
I do not see two classes of car drivers: so-called 'normal' drivers, and drivers who we expect to drive dangerously due to a mental deficiency and hence we reduce the penalties for them.
This was a tragic accident there's nothing to br gained by punishing the unfortunate more after the fact.
How about punishment and deterrence?
I have been knocked over by a cyclist going at high speed on the pavement, and I have been scared witless by several cyclists riding past me at high speed on the pavement, missing me by inches as I turned round startled by noise. I was once scared witless by a large group of cyclists riding at very high speed along a narrow path down the side of a hill in the middle of the countryside. They expected me to just get out of the way. Many cyclists often riding expensive bikes show a total disregard for others.
I have nothing against cyclists on the pavement, as long as they give way to pedestrians and are safe.
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All cyclists who ride on the pavement do so at high speed, by the very fact that they are going faster than the pedestrians who are there. The fact that in most circumstances they don't kill anyone is irrelevant, I am far too old to have 25lb of mountain bike and all it's attendant sharp bits buried in my hip.
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>>.... i alwaysride my bike on the pavement
Never mind, milkyjoe, we all went through that stage. I've no doubt that when you're old enough to go to Junior School Daddy will buy you a real bike without stabiliser wheels and allow you to ride on the road alongside him and Mummy.
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L\'escargot.
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Leif,
I spent 10 years of my life working around issues of mental capacity. Other members of my family have worked in special education and at least one has been a user of Mental Health Services. It's a subject on which I feel strongly.
Neither the term mentally handicapped or retarded are regarded as acceptable descriptions of disability.
Brain injury is a recognised term. It mostly happens to young men who have accidents in cars or in physical occupations, though being a drunk pedestrian adds a few more. Symtoms are personality change, disinhibition, lack of reasoning etc. Some people recover or adapt over time, other need permanent care. Many return to driving.
Learning difficulties are usually something one is born with and cover a range of issues from being a "bit dim" through to the tragic cases who are chair/bed bound and still dependant on their parents at 50. While I accept that the term is over used, along with ADHD etc, to excuse adolescent behaviour it does exist.
Even amongst the mentally ill (schizophrenia etc) very few are a real threat to others - certainly not to the extent the lock em up brigade in the press would have you beleive.
The perp in this case was presumably not unfit to ride a bike, even if he was warned about his riding (and anyway how do you stop him). How about a big fellow who runs everywhere pushing over old ladies etc - do you stop him walking?
He's been held responsible for his actions, hence the sentence.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 17/11/2007 at 17:43
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Bromptonaut
We don't really know if this lad was just a bit slow witted, or had some mental deficit. I suspect the former, but it is not clear from the news report.
I am afraid I do not know what terms to use if mentally handicapped or retarded are not considered acceptable.
To enlarge on something you said, most of those classed as mentally ill are a threat to no-one but themselves. Many years ago I learnt that a friend had killed himself and that he was schizophrenic. I was till then unaware of his illness. He was a very talented physicist.
Incidentally my late mother was a psychiatric nurse for over 30 years and my late grandmother was hemiplegic, unable to say more than a few words, and had to live in a care home.
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My old man uses a walking stick and successfully managed to "slip" and poke it through the rear wheel of a pavement cyclist. flluffed the wheel completely. Cyclist wasn't too pleased and threatened to call the police and do my Dad for assault. My Dad simply told him to go ahead, 'cos at his age (85) he had nothing to fear! Cyclist walked off, with bike on shoulder, looking miserable.
a random word will be inserted when anyone tries to defeat the swear filter
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 18/11/2007 at 17:26
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" but not as dangerous as riding them on the road, pot holes , drain covers , taxi and bus drivers . oh and some car drivers to contend with, i always ride my bike on the pavement but not at 30mph like a retard"
Some suggestions:
* Report all pot-holes to the local authority. In my area they are usually fixed within 24 hours. The authorities take them seriously, and welcome reports from the public, because they represent a serious liability. I do this routinely via their website, which has specific channels for this and similar purposes.
www.tagish.co.uk/Links/
* Ditto misaligned and missing drain covers.
* Report any bad driving by bus drivers, taxi drivers and commercial drivers (telephone numbers on the vans, etc.) to bus company, local authority or vehicle owner. Seeing a 73 bus in London tailgating a cyclist I did just that; the written letter of thanks from the depot manager revealed that he was himself a cyclist and was therefore more than certain to sort the driver out. If you don't do this sort of thing, nothing improves. If you do, these drivers will soon spread the word that they'd better watch out.
* Wear high-vis clothing. Fit one of those protruding plastic arms to assert your road space. Signal your intentions properly (you may get pleasing responses to that one in particular).
* Use front and rear lights at night.
* Obey the Highway Code and you may find that you improve the standard of driving of those around you.
* Behave like the vehicle driver that you are when you ride a bike. Vehicles are not driven on pavements.
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I think the original post refereed to clearly unacceptable behaviour by the cyclist - it's been heard in court, who had much better info than we have, so I'm happy to believe that's dealt with fairly.
re: (other) louts cycling on the pavement.
My kids cycle on the pavement and I have every intention of telling them to keep doing so.
The reason is that our village has a decent cycle path for about half of their most frequent route, the rest - through the centre of the village - is narrow road and very busy, plenty of traffic and some buses and goods vehicles.
I have second thoughts about cycling along there during the morning rush -certainly wouldn?t expect my 10 and 13 year old to do so every day.
My 13 year old is nearly my height and when he has a fleece and hood no doubt looks to an oldster like a lout.
My kids (I hope) don?t go excessively fast and stop when there are pedestrians in the way.
It?s not unknown for oldsters to remonstrate with them when they stop and tell them to get off the pavement.
I tell my kids to just say ?sorry my dad told me to? and cycle on.
Responding to the intolerant behaviour of some cyclists with intolerance isn?t really going to help ? unless you?d rather they all started getting lifts to school
- more traffic
- more pollution
- unfit or obese kids
Dan
Edited by Big Bird on 19/11/2007 at 10:57
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