Trouble is, you're really getting to the point that a diesel struggles to make sense if you don't want to take a risk.
I bought from new as I was doing a lot of miles, so I'm paying £440 a month for the moment. I didn't actually know about the misfuelling thing at the time, but if you buy second hand, then you'd have to put, what, £4k aside in case you needed a new engine? I suppose you could look at it as being less than a years payments on a new car, but it's still a sizeable wadge of cash.
I'd be tempted to buy a petrol second hand and put up with it being thirstier. Certainly I'm going to try and get intergalactic miles out of mine to put off the decision. I wouldn't buy a second hand diesel, certainly not a nearly new, as there has to be a really good chance they are getting rid following a mishap.
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but if you buy second hand then you'd have to put what £4kaside in case you needed a new engine
If only it were as low as 4K Gordon, been following the long running problem with BMW 320,s seems if one of them goes bang you can be 8K out of pocket.
We seem to have made similar decisions, we'll see in the fullness of time if we were right no doubt.
Things wern't so complicated when i were a lad (Yorkshiremen thats your dept).
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Misfueling is a lot more common than this thread implies. The AA now launching a service to empty fuel tanks. £200 for non AA members!
I think I read there are 150,000 incidents of misfueling in the UK per annum. Not all engines started of course!
I can onl think a solution like Ford's for preventing this is the way forward. If they patent it (they must have) they might end up making lots more money on a clever fuel flap design than they do on cars. It's so simple.... but could save thousands. And when you come to resell it is very unlikely to be misfueled.
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If the effects of mis-fuelling were as catastrophic as suggested & the incidents as common as reported, then surely this & every other motorring related forum would have been overwhelmed by stories of broken & blown-up this an that . Well, it hasn't as far as I can see.
So, for mis-fuelling epidemic & common rail diesel meltdown, read SARS epidemic, Bird Flu
Blue Tongue disease etc. etc. ... in other words mass histeria. It's almost amusing
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Further to the AA's new Fuel Assist service, this weeks issue of one of the motoring magazines has an article on it.
It quotes the AA's Technical Performance Manager as saying,
..."But if the driver has recently misfuelled, or even run the car for a short distance, the chance of a mechanical fault is still extremely low."
"Out of 6000 fuel drains carried out in the last year [trialling the new equipment], 99% of drivers were able to continue... without any lasting damage to their car".
Edited by Rich 9-3 on 11/11/2007 at 09:56
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With great respect to the AA, given that the damage from misfuelling often only manifests itself many miles later how can they justify that conclusion about 'no lasting damage', apparently on the basis there was no apparent problem immediately after the misfuel? Have they followed the fortunes of these cars for an extended period?
JS
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5 years ago i wouldn't have dreamed of taking the depreciation hit of a new car now i don't think i'd want a car made within the last 5 years out of warranty.
One of the reasons I bought a Mercedes is that they do a Service & Maint package which effectively covers everything that runs for up to 6yrs/120K miles. It's not cheap - just under £80/mth inc VAT for 12K miles per year for years 3 to 6 on my C270CDi - but it's invaluable peace of mind.
Even buying new doesn't guarantee against mis-fueling - I've hear of it being done pre-delivery.
Edited by Bill Payer on 11/11/2007 at 10:50
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Even buying new doesn't guarantee against mis-fueling - I've hear of it being done pre-delivery.
Agreed but i imagine anyone who does this won't be doing it again, plus its got 3 years of guarantee minimum to run to find any problem (isn't the Kia ceed looking more attractive day by day?).
Compared with any likely bills from your very complex car that service package probably isn't bad, i hear a 500 to 1000 bill for service incl very normal wear and tear parts is quite normal at Merc,i reckon thats a bargain.
< >
Well thats Mystic Meg redundant, presumably the AA has been doing this for some 3 to 5 years to be able to predict what will happen.
If it happens to me i'll get them to drain it for me, this guarantee is good peace of mind.
< >
woodbines.
When your paying anything up to 20K its a huge investment, and obviously if money is no object, or the company's paying, this and many other problems may seem trivial.
Maybe some are overcautious myself included, trouble is i'm not in a position to find up to 3K instantly.
Edited by gordonbennet on 11/11/2007 at 12:08
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I know of two cars being misfuelled as Demo's - cost about £300 to put right. I think the problem is so many different types of fuel and different colours ie green is now black black )of old ie diesel) is now blue etc.
What chance have we got.
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Thanks for your views. Seems to me that buying a diesel is becoming more and more of a lottery - if it's good you're quids in, if it's not you're in trouble.
Would anyone know if HJ has been asked this in his Telegraph advice column?
Peanut.
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It would be intersting to see the actual research behind the AA's [marketing?] statistic.
As they have no further contact once the car is towed in; have they really carried out a long-term study of this problem - or have they just made up a number to sell their shiny new service.
The AA's once-proud name and reputation [and most of their staff] are long gone. Now various City leeches have left them desperately in debt and just as money-grubbing as people like snip.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/11/2007 at 19:34
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I have been through this thought process and decided not to buy a second hand diesel because of the risks involved. I guess if you were to go the diesel route, you'd need to be very sure of the history of the car and why it is for sale - so, presumably you ought to be OK if you buy an ex-demo diesel or one which has come to the end of its company lease period. You would need to be as sure as you could be that it is not being sold because of prior misfueling.
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so presumably you ought to be OK if you buy an ex-demo diesel or one which has come to the end of its company lease period.
I would imagine that a huge proportion of the misfuels are company lease cars - it happened to countless cars on my last company fleet, many being run until they broke down. I never heard of the cars having anything other than a drain and re-fuel.
I came within an ace of doing it on my own (opt-out) company funded car - I was using a 'pay at the pump' facility for the first time and it wouldn't accept my card. With an ever growing queue I finally found a card that worked and started to fuel. I put 7p of petrol in. Of course stopping at that point completely threw the pump and I ended up driving off without buying diesel at all!
I now have a routine where I put the nozzle in place, stand back and recheck, then start to fuel.
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Good point - so even if a company lease car has come to the end of its lease term (and is not being got rid of early due to misfueling), it could still be carrying a problem which will manifest itself later. So the answer must be not to buy a second hand diesel at all, unless you are prepared to take the risk!
If you do buy a misfueled car, and a problem later emerges, you are unlikely to be able to claim under any warranty you take out when buying the car because you cannot prove you didn't misfuel it.
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It was as a result of reading through past threads on HJ that I decided not to buy a second hand diesel, not just because of misfueling issues, but also because of the additional complexity of diesel engines. Just seems too risky.
But then I guess I may not be the best judge of risk - still considering buying an MG ZT 2.5V6 (not the most fuel-efficient of cars) despite many backroomers saying they wouldn't go near one!
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It was as a result of reading through past threads on HJ that I decided not to buy a second hand diesel not just because of misfueling issues but also because of the additional complexity of diesel engines. Just seems too risky. >>
I feel exactly the same. Three years ago, I thought that the natural successor to my old 2 litre petrol Mondy would be a (second-hand) TDCi. Now .... I wouldn't touch one with a barge-pole. I wonder if there is enough of this sort of thinking will have an effect on residual values.
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I have made this point before and I don't think it was resolved: can we have BRoomers' actual experiences of the long-term consequences of misfuelling a CR diesel?
So much of what has been put above is conjecture and assumption.
I'm particularly interested at the moment because SWMBO's daughter has done this very thing to her 306 Hdi and managed to drive it quite a distance. It is now running again after repair and, as I have the same model (as does SWMBO), I am awaiting further developments - if there are any.
So - who has done it and what happened after the initial rectification?
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I can't comment definitely, but, I bought a one year old diesel Focus that subsequently had to have a new £1400 injector pump at 30,000 miles.
Conjecture was it had probably been mis-fuelled before I bought it, it certainly hadn't in the period I owned it.
I did refuse to use a certain garage that was rumoured to have accidentally stocked a diesel tank with petrol.
Edited by bathtub tom on 11/11/2007 at 19:35
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I have made this point before and I don't think it was resolved: can we have BRoomers' actual experiences of the long-term consequences of misfuelling a CR diesel? So much of what has been put above is conjecture and assumption.
Agreed.
I've found people's views to be very interesting. But where can I go to find out the facts about this? Or actual experiences ? Who would have done some research? Who would know?
If buying a (more expensive than petrol) diesel new is the sensible option, then it's got to be back to petrol and second hand, and use the cash saved to fund the extra fuel.
Pity, I like(d?) diesels.
Peanut.
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Ford's new fuel flap will make a huge difference. Others have to do similar.
I am not thinking current owner I am thinking next owner. If the petrol fuel filler cannot fit (without using the funnel) then no petrol can get in the car.
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I got the 7 year ceed LS diesel in August, its a sweet car, I too was put off by the typical 1-2 year old car with a misfuelled past risk. At least with the Ceed even after 4 years if its sold on the next buyer it has 3 more years of effective warrnty even if a misfuel event has occured.
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JimEng, good for you, i for one am thinking about one of these for the future, and i bet i'm not alone.
Do keep us posted regularly how the motors going and good/bad points please.
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So where does mis fuelling fir in with comprehensive insurance? If I mis fuel my car then I do so accidentally? If I run into the back of a lorry, I do so accidentally?
Would Comprehensive insurance cover me for, say a new engine if I have mis fuelled?
--
2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS
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You don't need to buy secondhand or misfuel the car to run into problems with a diesel engine.
After a (reasonably) satisfactory experience with a Skoda Fabia VRS diesel I purchased a brand new Mondeo TDCI in 2006. I had several running problems with the car, almost from the first week I had it. The dealer never managed to fix it properly and now claims that it has been run on contaminated fuel (they are not say misfuelled - just "contaminated", probably from a supermarket they say). Ford act as judge and jury on warranty matters and so say that this is not covered by warranty. I know I am not alone in this. Via other bulletin boards I am in contact with two other owners who are in the same position, and presumably there are others out there who don't use the internet and so remain unknown to us.
I have now engaged a solicitor to deal with my case and hopefully will reach a suitable agreement in due course such that the car can be repaired and disposed of. My next car will be a petrol vehicle!
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Reckon it is an issue that has been overblown though on the otherhand if I bought a used diesel (from a dealer) now I would want assurance in writing that the warranty would cover issues possibly caused by misfuelling before it came into my posession on the basis that I would be able to supply fuel reciepts.
Could be a worthwhile approach on a new car as well.
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I can't possibly see how fuel receipts would be of any help at all. If a person did misfuel they would hardly be likely to keep the receipt for petrol. They would have the tank drained and then fill with diesel, keep the receipt for that and throw the petrol receipt away.
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I can't possibly see how fuel receipts would be of any help at all. >>
Keeping receipts for fuel purchased is not fool proff though goes a long way to prove that it has been fuelled correctly.
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Ah, supermarkets again. The all purpose 'one excuse fits all' get-out clause.
How long before the supermarkets respond to this? All their fuel comes from the same refineries as everyone else. Have you ever heard of a Tesco refinery? It all meets the relevant BS. Their filling stations are built to the exactly same standards as all the rest. Why on earth should a supermarket fuel outlet be any more prone to providing 'contaminated fuel' than any other?
JS
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My advice of buying a secondhand diesle is simple:
Do your own research.. by looking on the forums.
There are some diesels that appear to be rarely misfueled cos their owners are more careful than the average company car driven Mondeo.
madf
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and you have what proof exactly that most misfuels are by company car drivers? hmmm?
None thats what.
A misfuel on a modern diesel is a shed load of agro for the user - company car or not.
------
< Ulla>
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do tanker drivers ever get it wrong or do the rigs on the tankers have a fail safe delivery system? and if so why dont fuel pumps at the forcourts have something similar to prevent misfueling, i seem to remember when unleaded came out that they had a different size nozzle on the pumps to stop people putting leaded/unleaded in the wrong cars !!
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I seem to remember when unleaded came out that they had a different size nozzle on the pumps to stop people putting leaded/unleaded in the wrong cars !!
Ford have recently made progress in this area using a clever filler neck on their diesel cars that won't accept an Unleaded nozzle.
Petrol engined cars equipped with catalytic converters have always had restricted filler necks that will only accept the "thinner" Unleaded nozzles rather than the fatter 4 star nozzles of the time. Funny thing is though, undesirable as it would be, filling a catalysed car up with leaded fuel and driving it would give a comparatively tiny repair bill next to doing the same thing with Unleaded and a modern common rail diesel. The other problem of course is that a diesel nozzle is fatter than an Unleaded one, meaning that stopping an Unleaded nozzle going into a diesel filler is a little more involved than a simple filler neck restrictor costing pennies.
I can't believe it has taken until now for the car industry to take this problem seriously though, and then ironically only a manufacturer which, if anecdotal evidence is to be believed, seems to blame every single failure of its diesel engines on "contaminated fuel". That said, it's an important step forward.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
Edited by DP on 12/11/2007 at 13:57
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I have never heard of any such thing as proof of long term damage from misfuellingpetrol into a diesel car. In fact, I am sceptical how such a rumour has come about. There isnt a shred of evidence that such happens, even on this thread? Sure, if you filled up with petrol into your diesel motor and did nothing, then you will pay heavily. As it seems though, a majority of people realise what they've done before its to late and get the tank pumped out and refueled,,, cost, about £70 labour and £50/£60 of fuel if filling up.
And no amount of signs or alerts are going to make the person who is distracted not make the occasional mistake. Even the gadget that tells you, you are fuelling a diesel car can become a background message once the user is accustomed to it. It is better than nothing but thats about all.
And as for Ford's device, nice touch but ten years later than it should have been. There's one already fitted on the Rangie diesel and I have a retrofit design that would work marvelously on all cars (and it's human proof!) but people won't retrofit enough to make it worth putting into production :( Still, an answer is on it's way.
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Nothing like paranoia to make a good story,whatever next?I seem to remember when cats first became commonplace and all the silly scare stories that came along about missfueling then.Silly story IMHO.
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Nothing like paranoia to make a good story whatever next?I seem to remember when cats first became commonplace and all the silly scare stories that came along about missfueling then.Silly story IMHO.
Put leaded petrol into a cat-equipped car and you WILL damage the cat and lambda sensor (gets coated) - that is the reason why cat-equipped cars have a filler neck restricter!
Try to run a CR Diesel on petrol and there is a good chance of damage to the fuel system - its not a rumour or scare story!!
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How many times have you needed to replace a cat because of contamination?Sure the lambdas do give up,but that is a cheap and easy fix.I have known of a few CR diesels that have been mis fueled and then just topped up with diesel and experienced no probs.
I would say that there are systems used by some manufactures that are a little fragile,but to say these problems are caused by missfuelling or supermarket fuel is not always the case.
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How many times have you needed to replace a cat because of contamination?
Many hundreds of times. It's one of the commonest reasons for emissions-test failure.
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'Many hundreds of times',well i'm glad i dont pay you to MOT my cars.I have only replaced a couple of cats since about 1994 and they were always because the core was breaking up.
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Only about 10% of cats are replaced because the brick has failed - the rest just won't light.
A quick check of the in-out temps with the laser and if the O2 sensor is sweeping and the emissions are not more tham 0.4%CO out - it's the cat.
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Pebble in the states I would say over 90% of car drivers use petrol.Here in europe a lot of diesel drivers so mistakes happen.Everybody seems to be in a rush these days.
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Hmmmmm,
Probably asking for trouble, but for all the split second it takes wtf do drivers not check & double check the pump, nozzle, hose colour, etc etc., etc etc?
I may be just paranoid , but for all the No of times a diesel needs re-fueling its a very very insignificent investment of ones time
PS
I would tink company car drivers care less than us paid for owner drivers.
And it was my understanding that the trouble either manifested itself almost immediately..........or not at all.
That said I could not bring myself to purchase a second hand diesel. we bought new
sigh
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Agree dieseldogg next thing we need is a zipp reminder to clos our zipp or button up.A couple of seconds to have a look and check thats all it takes.Or be arrested.:)
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