Roly93: "Anyway RWD has its problems too, like poor drivability in snow"
This seems to be a recurring theme, and it's simply not true, for three reasons.
One: Traction control will resolve snow driving problems. In RWD car, you're then left with front tyres that need only to steer the car, rather than move it as well.
Two: Idiot drivers will fail regardless of what hey are driving. If you're not used to snow, you're stuffed. My formative years were spent in Sheffield, so I can cope. I ended up switching my TC off in the last bout of snow down here to give myself a reason to stay awake.
Three: A front wheel skid is mush more serious than a rear wheel skid once you've truly lost traction. Known by skid pan teachers as a "death skid" in fact.
V
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Roly93: "Anyway RWD has its problems too, like poor drivability in snow"
Vin{P}:"it's simply not true, .."
Well It must be that all drivers of RWD cars are absolutely the world's worst drivers.
We get snow in normal winters : up to 05 metres plus.. And ice.
And in this weather, all the RWD cars are undriveable... They ALL without exception fail to negotiate our hilly twisty and iced roads.. BMWs/Mercedes.. the odd Vauxhall...
(None are fitted with winter tyres cos it's not worth it for 2-3 weeks).
Whilst we in our inferior FWD cars slither along.. and skid and keep going.
So if RWD are superior, I claim all RWD drivers should take new tests cos they obviously can't drive properly.
And I have driven cars with traction control - rwd and fwd.. and if both wheels are spinning with no grip, then it does not work!
madf
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I think the lack of RWD in new cars has nothing to do with the grip issue and much more to do with car makers now having a suite of drive trains and platforms that are configured for FWD. They have no real chance of producing RWD without massive re-engineering.
What is lamentable as was posted earlier is the relatively poor space utilisation of current FWD models which have nothing of the genuinely large space of Austin 1800, 1100, princess, maestro, 2CV, BX etc relative to their length/size.
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I suspect drivers nowadays are less careful/observant than they used to be, when we had harder winter AND rwd as the norm. Maybe the modern, much more powerful, but peaky, engines are also a factor? Traffic didn't come to a halt in snow and ice in Germany, nor even in hilly cities in the UK. FWD hides ineptness, so for that reason it might well be a benefit.
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I wonder just how many Merc/BMW drivers know (or care) which of their wheels are driven.
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Curious responses here.
I don't think anyone posting here, who drives a RWD car, recognises any problem in any weather conditions.
Yet the rest of us - from simple observation, perhaps, or from speaking to owners/former owners of RWD cars - is well aware that, whatever the electronics involved, RWD cars have a problem in bad weather.
Conclusion: all the RWD drivers here are more skilled than in the real world.
I'm not - necessarily - being facetious: this is an enthusiasts' forum, and for every below average driver like me on it, there will be an above-average one.
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Having front wheel drive in a car uses the space more efficently as has already been stated. I'm sure a few very, very advanced drivers can eek a few more tenths of a second off lap times around brandshatch in a rwd than a fwd, but in normal day to day driving it means diddly squat. My fwd understeers like I don't know what if the roads are a bit greasey, but in the dry my underpants protest before the grip runs out. I'm sure I'd be contacting my insurance company if I decided to explore the out limits of the grip in the dry. The local constablry would be interested in me too.
As for snow etc. Yes appling power does transfer weight to the rear, which would indicate that rear wheel drive would fare better. However, it is far easier to pull an object that to push it. Tractors pull, trucks pull, bulldozers push but are outrageously heavey and on tracks.
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Well krs one you started a good thread here and i reckon we could have handbags at dawn sometime this week. Thank goodness we all like different things, i will probably always run RWD or Part time 4x4 i don't want to do a clackson on the road but i want a comfortable and swift cruiser at least until the liblabcon deems otherwise for our own good.
Funnily enough its not beyond me just yet to sling a couple of slabs in the boot if it looks like snow...also i'm not yet too senile to turn my own lights and wipers on when needed.
Suppose a lot depends on the cars we had and wanted in our misspent youth.
ttfn
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Funnily enough its not beyond me just yet to sling a couple of slabs in the boot if it looks like snow...
Do not ever put slabs in the boot. If you are in a crash, your car will come to a sudden hault. Your slabs however will not and will probably bash through your seats. If you roll your car the last thing you want is 2cwt of rubble knocking you unconsious. Sand bags might be better.
An American service engineer told be of someone he sent for a drum of oil in a pickup. He crashed, the oil drum pinned him to the steering wheel.
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"I don't think anyone posting here, who drives a RWD car, recognises any problem in any weather conditions."
Well mylast two cars have been RWD and they're SCARY in snow.
Wouldn't swap, however.
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Front drive, rear drive, different but equivalent. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I like both.
I have always fancied a chain drive Frazer Nash (no differential, therefore natural oversteerer despite short back axle) and would even like to try one of those really naff cyclecars with one driven back wheel.
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GM: "all the RWD drivers here are more skilled than in the real world."
I don't think you're being facetious at all. I suspect that if you sampled the people on here, the proportion who have an understanding of what sits under the bonnet, who have taken a skid-pan lesson, who look further than the end of their bonnet, etc, is probably much higher than in the general population.
the sample of what you see on the roads is possibly due to an over-representation of Mercs and BMWs. I'm not trying to inflame opinion on here, but I'd suspect that many of the drivers of those marques (outside this forum!) are less aware of the laws of physics as applied to cars - e.g. stopping distances.
BTW, having done the skid-pan lesson, I know which skid I'd rather have, and it's not the "killer skid".
V
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BTW having done the skid-pan lesson I know which skid I'd rather have and it's not the "killer skid".
I cling firmly to the adage "It's only a fool who never has to ask a question".
So, what do you mean, Vin?
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The post has divided opinion. The only RWD cars I've had were a Moggy Minor (not much chance of oversteer there then) a couple of E21 style Beemers (oversteer on tap) and a Transit van (terrible in the snow).
By the way, the current Ford Transit is available with either FWD or RWD. Is this the ultimate in giving the customer what they want?
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I recently bought a 1990 BMW E30 325i for day to day motoring and as a break from my thoroughly modern fwd car. It is the first time in 20 years I've driven rwd and I am enjoying the difference. Yes it is best to be gentle with the loud pedal on damp or wet roundabouts etc. and many of the car's characteristics are quite different from a fwd. Both types have their strong and not so strong points (no airbags or muscular pillars and padded surroundings came as quite a shock when I first drove the BMW!) and I try to enjoy them for what they offer, rather than what is missing.
Vive le difference! you could say :)
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Do people buy BMWS because of the fact they are RWD? I would imagine half of their buyers don't even know which wheels are driven! Until their first icy morning.....
Yes - I bought my BMW because it was RWD. Best example as to why is my wife's Mitsubishi Grandis. Any mildly enthusiastic acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear will result in dreadful torque steer.
As for snow and ice, yup it can be a bit trickier. I have a set of snow chains in the car so not overly concerned.
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reason i like wheel rear drive? you can put all the power down and not unduly worry about breaking something
front wheel drive? listening for clonks from the driveshafts for ever and a day worrying about splitting cv boots,having terrible torque steer if you use all available power and looking like a complete div when you get halfway out of a junction in front of a waggon and you are going nowhere because of wheelspin and lost traction
i remember when manufacturers said more than 100 bhp and fwd was no good
how times change
which do i prefer in everyday use?
fwd all the time,so predictable
plus i have one transit with a wildy noisy diff that gives you a headache after an hours motorway,how many drivers would put up with that in their tin boxes these days?
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Not so long ago one of the less knowledgeable chaps in the office bought a new car.
Before long he was telling everyone how superior RWD was compared to a FWD car.
Trouble was, his new car was a VW Passat.
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Could have been 4x4? Possibly not but a V6 Motion would be 4WD
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Just thought... he might have been right in saying RWD superior in his opinion but still drove a FWD Passat to work. Whether he had a RWD something else to drive other times is irrelvant. In his opinion RWD better and he said that driving FWD. And you question it?
FWD/RWD/4WD a matter of driving requirements normally.
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It was a standard Passat. It was in the company workshop for a service. The owner came in for a look and a chat.
He was staggered when it was pointed out that the car was FWD.
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GroovyMucker,
They called it a killer skid because the way out of it is so utterly counterintuitive that no-one does it. The natural reaction is accelerate and turn into the corner more - as 90% of the time that gets you out of trouble. The other times, when you really have lost grip totally, you just slide straight on into whatever it is you're trying to avoid withtou slowing down a jot and you die.
In a RWD car, you tend to notice that things have gone wrong much easier (the car starts to swing round) so you react quicker. It's reasonably obvious to steer into the skid if you've ever seen film of a drift, so reactions are more likely to help.
None of that expresses it clearly, but a day at a skid pan will teach you more than I could ever know, and could save your life. About £70 or so at Castle Coombe.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=16...1
V
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I have a RWD but regularly drive er indoors' FWD, so regularly experience both.
The trouble with modern decent RWD cars is they now all have the gadgets to compensate for the known RWD failings.... e.g. Dynamic Stability Control and Traction Control, so a large chunk of people have no idea if what is really going on and even the experienced can get complacent.
When i took mine to my indie for a service on a wet morning, i nearly did a 180 on a wet roundabout coming back from the garage in their courtesy car...(10 year old XJ6). Some of it was carp tyres, but some of it was my comfort zone in my car with all the gizmos. Builder coming the other way thought i was just being a hooligan and flashed his lights and gave me a thumbs up!
Some years back i went to watch some motocross in a field in Devon as my little bro was the star turn.......at the end of it my mother asked me to get her Sierra out of the field as it wouldn't budge. What a fuss........everything else FWD just drove out.........not her Sierra, the thing was a nightmare. In the end reversing it out did the trick, but it wasn't easy.
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Have FWD volvo 850 with afaiac a trick gearbox. Can move off in third if required so doesn't get stuck in too many places. Also large french van also FWD and tow 2 tons q. often. Is very stable, dosesn't spin and brakes and stops well whereas a RWD transit has pushed me into all kinds of prob's and does not want to stop when towing.
VBR MD
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well the answer to the original question is that its cheaper to make front wheel drive cars, thats the long and short of it
however having been on tracks in rear wheel drive cars in recent history i wouldnt choose to drive one on the roads these days, although i could throw them around in my youth ive long since lost that ability, all my natural reflexes are accustomed to front or four wheel drive handling characteristics
the off time ive driven a merc on the road the traction control etc tends to hide the underlying characteristics when driven moderately, which is all ive really done the times ive driven mercs
in a 3 series coupe which was on loan/test i did give it some welly and was truely appauled at the handling even with the gizmos trying to save me, would rather have a modern hot or warm hatch any day of the week
but cars are sold on style and marketing, most buyers couldnt care less how the wheels are driven
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With many folks liking the driving dynamics of RWD cars, I have to wonder if Hyundai might just find a niche here in a year or two.
Their latest US model, to go on sale next year sometime, combines a 4.6L V8 engine, near 50:50 weight distribution, multi-link suspension all-round and RWD, all in a car that looks and, on paper, performs rather like an expensive Lexus (360BHP, 0-60 in <6s), and all for around £17,000 over there.
Configure that with EU-biased suspension settings and it could be a good cheap thrills car like the Vauxhall Monaro, except even cheaper.
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Sounds nice Jase, any pics anywhere?
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