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One of the three I use has merged with with another, the other has a very good reputation for bike stuff. Hope they survive the cull.
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Part of the problem for BMW is that although they remain excellent cars, the opposition are catching up. The ones at the top of the range, like PU's 535D, I would think are still worth it if you can afford them.
But the 320D Touring, which I thought very seriously about, is (list price) £26,465 (SE) or £25,435 (ES) against the £17,862 of my new Golf 2.0TDI estate, equipment on the SE-trim Golf being somewhere between BMW's ES and SE.
We will get a scornful comment in a moment from Michael R that you can't compare a BMW with a 'white goods' Golf, but if you actually drive both I think you can. I'm sure there are bits you can't see where the BMW is better engineered than the VW, but as far as driveability goes, and the fit and finish that you can see, there really isn't much in it, and certainly not £7,000-8,000 worth. You couldn't have said the same about driveability with the Mark IV Golf (although you could about fit and finish) but the Mark V's ride, handling and response to the accelerator are huge improvements, and shall we say almost up to BMW standards.
I couldn't get a comfortable driving position in the 320 and I didn't like the gearchange - but that's subjective. Even if those points didn't apply I should have found it hard to justify the extra cost.
You might be surprised to think of VW and good valuie in the same sentence, but the Golf estate, unlike the hatch, offers SE trim with the 2.0 TDI engine. Inexplicably you can't have the Golf Match (=SE) with this engine and you have to go for the GT Sport (£18,887).
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Well posted. Probably the most objective post about BMWs I've read on this site (Including mine !) I have to say that the feel of our family Golf is a little inferior in the cabin to my old E46. Can't compare it to the current 3 sufficiently well to comment. Whatever the Golf is or isn't it isn't "white goods" now that is an objective view.
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Believe me, talk to manufacturers and dealers and all cars are 'white goods' - they will try to convince the customer otherwise ('lifestyle', 'what the car says about you' and all that guff). BMW are well into volume territory now, pre-reg'ing and touting to brokers. There is 'convergence' in the car market - Audi putting pressure on BMW, Ford selling a Mondeo that does everything a BMW can do for a fair bit less money.
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I accept that, but a car has to be something "special" for me to love it, I loved my E46, it has soul - it truly did, I I found it difficult to love its successors in the same way, I tried I honestly did. The Golf is another lovable car in the same sense. They may be white goods to people in the
"trade" but if they were to their drivers there wouldn't be dozens and dozens of related forums on here - I ask you are there forums on Washing Macines and Tumble Dryers...?
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Essentially, all cars are mass-produced apart from the low-volume specialists like Morgan and Caterham - and in that sense they can be called white goods.
But unlike things like washing machines this doesn't prevent some of them being different enough to have what PU rightly calls 'soul'. Soul is something that BMWs have been very strong in, and still are - but (and this is subjective) I find that my Golf has it too, in a way that its predecessor the B-class never had.
Who was it that said "by 2020 there will be only six car manufacturers left - plus Morgan" ?
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Professor Garel Rees - Cardiff Business School. So far he's been right in his prophecies in the 80s
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Professor Garel Rees - Cardiff Business School. So far he's been right in his prophecies in the 80s
Just to save us wading through the sermons issued by this modern day nostrodamus, kindly precis the particular prophetic message in this context.
ta
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< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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But unlike things like washing machines this doesn't prevent some of them being different enough to have what PU rightly calls 'soul'. Soul is something that BMWs have been very strong in and still are - but (and this is subjective) I find that my Golf has it too in a way that its predecessor the B-class never had.
Eki thump, you blokes are a marketing man's dream.
blasphemous comment substituted for another word (guess which one)
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A vehicle might be well-engineered enough to give a high and continuing level of customer satisfaction but it does NOT and CANNOT have 'soul'!
(Whatever that is - maybe we should ask the Archbishop of Canterbury although I doubt you'd get an understandable answer).
>Eki thump, you blokes are a marketing man's dream.<
Seconded.
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"maybe we should ask the Archbishop of Canterbury although I doubt you'd get an understandable answer)"
You probably would from the Archbishop of York. He might agree with you that 'soul' is the wrong word to use in this context, although I find it difficult to think of a better word to convey the difference between a machine that you can gain real enjoyment from using and one which you just use.
I expect that if I were a trained engineer like Aprilia I wouldn't see it in that light. But I would defend myself from being a 'marketing man's dream' !
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>>I ask you are there forums on Washing Macines and Tumble Dryers...?
Yes, there are!, and jolly helpful they are too, when you need them!
Number_Cruncher
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I knew that would happen !
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I knew that would happen !
Not to mention Zanusi weekly, and Miele monthly on the top shelf at smiths.
My favourite tho is Bosch babes
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< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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>>I knew that would happen !
Sorry PU!
Although it must be said, that there isn't quite the same level of "enthusiasm" on the threads describing how to change the bearing on a Hotpoint washer as there is on our threads about oil change intervals or tyre pressures!
Number_Cruncher
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"jolly helpful they are too"
Especially www.washerhelp.co.uk/
(I've used him - he's good)
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They may be white goodsto people in the "trade" but if they were to their drivers there wouldn't be dozens and dozens of related forums on here - I ask you are there forums on Washing Macines and Tumble Dryers...?
There are actually!
There's loads of forums (and magazines) for home entertainment equipment - do they have 'soul' too, and let's not get started on computers....
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let's not get started on computers....
Aprilia has cleverly raised the question of whether computers have souls. It seems unlikely. Indeed they may not even exist.
They don't think, therefore they aren't.
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Lud
sorry I'm a bit behind times but I'm reminded of the Asimov story where the "world president" throws a switch to connect the last group of computers into the world network. He has the honour of asking the first question to the new world wide computer network (well I couldn't say "web" could I?); "is there a God?". A bolt of lightning fuses the switch closed and a voice says "There is now". :-)
JH
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>'what the car says about you'
That's both a blessing and a curse for BMW. Remember the Audi ad? I'd still have a 2002, though...
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Part of the problem for BMW is that although they remain excellent cars the opposition are catching up. The ones at the top of the range like PU's 535D I would think are still worth it if you can afford them.
I reckon you've hit the nail on the head. I am a staunch enthusiast of Mercs & BM's, but as a realist also I am the first to admit that the arguments in favour of some - not all by any means - of the smaller engined lower range premium models are now looking very weak indeed when compared with mid range examples of eg: Focus, Mondeo, Astra etc etc. However the higher up the BMW / Merc / Audi ranges you go, there is no way the products of the 'everyday' manufacturers can possibly compare imo.
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Stratstones closed its Aylesbury BMW Dealership a month or so ago. It's become a 'Prestige' used car emporium. The Town now has no BMW Dealer, though plenty of owners. Tring or Milton Keynes are now iirc the nearest alternatives.
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I had the displeasure of an 07 116i for a week the other week and I have absolutely no idea why you chose one over an equivilently priced Ford Focus 2.0 Titanium.
It was reasonably well built, but that was about the only redeeming feature it had. It also looked awful, and I felt like everybody who looked at me driving it thought I was an extreme badge snob who'd suffer an awful car just to have the right keyring.
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I think Sales figures for BMW and VW make interesting reading. Sorry for the long post. I noticed that BMW claim UK to be their 3rd largest market and sales were up nearly 16% in the UK last month. VW also had strong growth. The UK is the 2nd largest market for the Golf.
BMWGroup.com
07.09.2007
BMW Group shows double-digit increase in August too
BMW Group shows double-digit increase in August too+++ Volume sales increase by 13% compared with the same month last year
Munich. The BMW Group is continuing to race ahead with its sales. In August, the number of BMW, MINI and Rolls-Royce automobiles delivered to customers rose by 12.9% to 99.755 (prev.yr.: 88,391). As in the previous months, all regions contributed to this positive development. The largest individual market in August remained the USA, with 30,638 automobiles sold (prev.yr.: 25,673). Here, the number of deliveries rose by 19.3%. This was followed by Germany with 19,253 vehicles sold (prev.yr.: 17,373) and a rise in sales of 10.8%. In the United Kingdom, the third-largest market, the BMW Group increased its sales in August by 15.8% to 6,672 automobiles (prev.yr.: 5,763).
Amongst the established markets, France recorded particularly strong growth rates. Here, 3,910 automobiles were delivered to customers in August, which is 78.7% more than in the same month last year (2,188). In the month under review, very high increases were also recorded by Poland, at plus 92.3% to 273 vehicles sold (prev.yr.: 142), and Russia, at plus 75.5% to 1,358 deliveries (prev.yr.: 774). In India, starting from a low level of sales last year (20), the company actually increased the number of sales more than five times over (+470.0%/114).
For the period from January to August inclusive, the BMW Group achieved an increase in sales of 7.1%. This meant that 952,929 (prev.yr.: 889.348) BMW Group automobiles were sold in the first eight months of the current year.
In the month under review BMW brand sales rose by 11.1% to 85,003 vehicles (prev.yr.: 76,497) in comparison with the same month last year. Up to and including August, 811,388 BMW automobiles were sold
(prev.yr.: 760,237/+6.7%).
MINI brand increases by 24%
In the face of continuing high demand for the new model generation, MINI brand dealers sold 24.0% more vehicles to customers in August (14,452) than in the same month last year (11,832). For the year to the end of August 2007, the number of MINI sold thus reached 141,082 units (prev.yr.: 128,711/+9.6%).
Rolls-Royce delivered 82 vehicles to customers in August (prev.yr.: 62/+32.3%). In the first eight months, 459 cars were delivered (prev.yr.: 400/+14.8%).
Dr. Michael Ganal, member of the Board of Management of BMW AG responsible for sales and marketing: "We are still in first place in the competition amongst suppliers of premium automobiles. We have undertaken to achieve sales growth in 2007 in the upper single-digit percentage range. We are well on the way to meeting this objective. From next week, at the International Motor Show in Frankfurt, we will be showing the products that are generating success? because, here and now, they represent just the right combination of performance and consumption.?
Sales of motorcycles in August 2007 reached 6,963 vehicles
(prev.yr.: 6,279/ +10.9%). Up to and including August, the number of
BMW motorcycles delivered rose by 5.2% to 75,114 (prev.yr.: 71,411).
BMW Group sales in/up to and including August 2007 at a glance
In August 07 comp. w. prev.yr. Up to & incl. August 07 comp.w. prev.yr.
BMW Group automobiles 99,755 + 12,9% 952,929 + 7,1%
BMW 85,003 + 11,1% 811,388 + 6,7%
MINI 14,670 + 24,0% 141,082 + 9,6%
Rolls-Royce 82 + 32,3% 459 +14,8%
BMW motorcycles 6,963 + 10,9% 75,114 + 5,2%
Volkswagenag.com
Wolfsburg, 2007-08-21
Volkswagen Group with 3.61 million car sales worldwide sets new record for January to July Increase of 8.1 percent
July record: with 522,000 vehicles 10.2 percent more deliveries
With 3.61 million vehicles sold worldwide between January and July 2007, the Volkswagen Group has set a new record for this delivery period. The increase in sales compared to last year was 8.1 percent. In July, 522,000 vehicles delivered was an increase of 10.2 percent, which was a record for the seventh month of the year. "There is a very impressive success which will further strengthen our presence on the world market. With our innovative brands and a broad and attractive model range which appeals to all target groups, we are on the right road towards selling over six million vehicles for the first time this year", said Professor Dr Martin Winterkorn, Chairman of the Board of Management at Volkswagen AG.
In Europe, the Group increased deliveries from January to July 2007 by 3.7 percent to 2.17 million vehicles, of which 1.89 million were in West Europe (an increase of 1.4 percent). In this way, the decrease of 3.3 percent in the biggest individual market ? Germany (607,000 deliveries) could be more than compensated. 279,000 vehicle sales in Central and East Europe resulted in an increase of 22.4 percent.
In the Asia-Pacific region, the Volkswagen Group delivered 591,000 vehicles which was 22.5 percent more than in the first seven months of last year. In China alone, the sales figures increased by 26.4 percent to 509,000 vehicles.
The American continent also displayed a positive trend for the Volkswagen Group. Deliveries to customers in South America increased by 28.7 percent to 403,000 vehicles, of which 310,000 were in Brazil (increase of 30.1 percent). In North America, 306,000 vehicles were sold ? an increase of 2.1 percent, of which 191,000 were in the USA (increase of 0.9 percent).
The Volkswagen brand, which is best-selling brand in the Volkswagen Group, delivered 2.11 million vehicles to customers worldwide between January and July of this year, 7.9 percent more than during the same period last year. Audi also achieved a clear plus of 9.7 percent with 590,000 vehicles sold. Skoda reported a strong increase of 13.3 percent to 362,000 deliveries. Seat sold 261,000 vehicles (minus 2.0 percent). Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles reported a considerable increase of 10.2 percent to 274,000 vehicles sold. The best ever sales result for the Group was rounded off by Bentley with 6,500 vehicles delivered (plus 23.0 percent) and Lamborghini with 1,400 (plus 24.0 percent). Bugatti more than doubled its sales with 47 deliveries.
Volkswagen.com
02/08/2007 I ModelsGolf sales increase worldwide
The Golf is Volkswagen?s best-selling model worldwide and sold more than 300,600 units during the first six months of this year, equating to a sales increase of ten percent against the first half-year of 2006. Some 61,500 units were sold in Germany alone, corresponding to a rise of 5.7 percent. The second-largest ?Golf country? is the United Kingdom, while the Golf?s biggest overseas market is the USA.
02/08/2007 I CompanyVolkswagen Group posts sales record
The Volkswagen Group sold more than three million vehicles worldwide during the first half of 2007. This equates to a rise of 7.8 percent against the same period of the previous year. Sales in Europe rose by 3.7 percent, while an increase of 22.8 percent was reported in Central and Eastern Europe. Meanwhile, sales in the Asia-Pacific region grew by 20.9 percent and in South America by as much as 27.7 percent. The highest-volume Group brand is Volkswagen.
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Any chance of a 10 line precis?
659.
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10 line precis? Will one or two[*] lines do?
[*] depending on when the width of this web page gets reset.
"Contrary to reports of the death of BMW and or VW, their sales are actually growing at a very healthy pace".
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And remember BMW is a mostly privately owned company so making money is a requirement not a pleasant by-product.
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"Contrary to reports of the death of BMW and or VW their sales are actually growing at a very healthy pace".
I don't think anyone is reporting the death of BMW - never seen that. More that whilst sales are doing well the dealers are struggling to make anything on their (considerable) investment in the brand. Its not so much a VM issue, more a dealer issue.
Volume is very much a double-edged sword.
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I ask you are there forums on Washing Macines and Tumble Dryers...?
That's not really the correct question to be asking. This is a motoring forum, not particularly a car forum.
There are forums on washing machines and tumble driers, and they are somewhat dry, much as our technical forum is (or would be if the site didn't have a motoring discussion forum which drives additional traffic here).
You should be asking whether there are forums on washing and drying clothes. I have no doubt that if you go onto mumsnet that they get just as worked up over washing at 60 or 50 degrees as some people do here about changing the cambelt every morning before going to work.
Nur nur nur nur nur!!!
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But no doubt there are still passionate Miele vs Beko debates :-(
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"Contrary to reports of the death of BMW and or VW their sales are actually growing at a very healthy pace".
Remember profit is sanity and turnover is vanity !!
Selling more cars means only one thing BMW will have to sell even more cars next year and the year after; problem for the private motorist is residuals take a dive and your 3 series just becomes another Mondeo ... no disrespect to the Mondeo which is a good car.
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Remember profit is sanity and turnover is vanity !!
Exactly. PSA's new chief (parachuted in from Airbus) has said that they will o longer chase volume but concentrate on profitability. Not sure I believe any of them, really, and how do you pay a salesman if not on volume sold?
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Hello boxterboy and Paul I
I think you missed the word "healthy" in my sentence.
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I think commoditization is the word.
Most "products" are now such high quality, that branding is often the main differentiator in price.
As consumers get maturer, they start to realise that the £2 Primark T-shirt isn't that different a quality to the £40 designer one, and there becomes an almost inverse snobbery to not getting ripped-off for a badge.
A Russian friend of mine laments the day he purchased his Merc (always dreamn't of owning a Merc when in the Motherland), realising now his trusty old Toyota was a better car, with helpfull dealers who didn't try to rip him off.
Is this starting to happen the BMW?
MVP
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Not sure if that is beginning to happen to BMW or not but as an owner for the past 12 years it might be.
The reason that I bought my current 5 series estate was that there were only 3 cars that fitted the bill. Rear wheel drive, 6yl diesel, newish, big/biggish interior. It was either the 5, Merc E class or Vauxhall Omega.
Now I am not so sure how important RWD is to me, although I prefer it (or think that I do) and as I mentioned in a previous post, 4cyl diesels have now got much more output than they did 5 or 6 years ago, so is a 6 cyl worth it?
The other reason I paid a lot on the car is so that it would last a long time. As image is unimportant, the badge is irrelevant, I am more than happy driving a 7 year old car and don't see reason to change. However it is has not worked out that the car is more reliable than any other.
Now the car is out of warranty (for some reason BMW obviously aren't confident enough of their product to offer a 7 year warranty like Kia) I now no longer have any reason to stay within the dealer network. Why should I, when the experience that I have had is no better than my local german car specialist (BM, VAG, MB) but 20-40% more expensive. Are BMW closing dealers selling new cars or their service departments? I suspect that it could be the latter due to the astronomical service costs. Simple market forces at work there.
Will I replace my car with another BMW (probably in 3 years time). Likely answer is no - not because I can't afford it, more that I don't see the point in spending so much for something not a huge amount better. I agree that PU's 535d would be hard to replace like for like but a 530d has some alternatives, and I am looking forward to VAG launching their common rail engines as I would like to stay a DERV driver with about 200bhp.
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arn't BMW's a bit err, common?
I'm sure they drive lovely, but it comes at a price does it not?
People would wear a car like a 3 Series, what does a 3 Series say about you, particularly a 4cylinder model? "I'm doing ok, this is a nice company car, but I'm still not the boss yet". When they get old they really attract a particular "demographic". Only yesterday I saw a tattoed gentleman driving around a council estate slurping on a fast food joint drink in an aging 5 Series. Not that I am making any judgements on what he might do for a living...
My manager had a T reg 3 Series from new and to be honest, if I had a £1,500 banger that was as unreliable as that pile of junk I would have scrapped it. He got another one last year. They really must drive will.
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But the 320D Touring which I thought very seriously about is (list price) £26 465 (SE) or £25 435 (ES) against the £17 862 of my new Golf 2.0TDI estate equipment on the SE-trim Golf being somewhere between BMW's ES and SE.
Good point, in fact I couldn't see why the 3 series touring was over £2K more than the directly equivalent A4 Avant. Plus the fact that BMW have hacked everyone off with their stupid run-flat tyres.
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