People always over estimate their potential average speed, especially on cross country routes.
The real killer though (although the other half never accepts it) is having to stop every so often for a cup of tea or a toilet break...:-)
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I have some sympathy with Oldhand's views, there are many roads (aside from motorways, that's another story) where safe progress is possible at speeds well above the some what arbitary national speed limit.
I mention a route above through Somerset and Wiltshire, there are some stretches of road where 60 is daft, an indicated 90 seems about right, you can see 1000 yds ahead and a 1000 yds behind.
As I have said before raising average speeds reduces journey times which reduces congestion, congestion is as much a causal factor in accident stats as speed.
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Going off at a slight tangent, when was the 70 mph limit introduced?
Not that it made much difference to a lot of cars. The quoted top speed of a Hillman Imp was 78 mph but it was impossible to achieve even 70 on normal roads. Even the slightest incline or headwind slowed the car down considerably. And to think that some people talk about "the good old days".
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L\'escargot.
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1965 IIRC as a temporary measure made permanent somewhat later.
A key issue then was speed differential, A35 spluttering, er, cruising at 45 and E-Types coming up behind at 100 +.
We dont have that issue now, all cars could cruise at 80+ all day.
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1965 IIRC
There's some interesting information here regarding speed limits and average speeds. tinyurl.com/2fzd5h
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L\'escargot.
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" guess the trip computer on my car is wildly innacurate then as I've seen it read an average of 73mph without a motorway or dual carriageway in sight.
I'm also getting you don't get out much motoring wise. Expanding one's horizons is a good thing Stuart."
If OldHand is genuinely saying that he achieves a 73mph average over any significant distance on a single-carriageway road then I only hope the boys in blue catch up with him before an innocent party is killed or injured. Such an average speed implies peak speeds into three figures. You deserve to lose your license. It is simple arrogance to think you can drive at such high speeds on single carriageway roads and not present a danger to other road users. You sound like an accident looking for somewhere to happen. Single carriage ways are many times more dangerous than dual carriageways and motorways, the death rate is much higher.
Your second sentence is arrogant and undeservingly patronising to Stuart.
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>>If OldHand is genuinely saying that he achieves a 73mph average then I only hope the boys in blue catch up with him. Such an average speed implies peak speeds into three figures.
Depends how he measures it. If you leave Alnwick and press the trip meter when you pass Hardy's, and you stop at Chaddington, then those 70 miles can be reasonably safely undertaken at 75mph, slowing only for the cameras and a couple of roundabouts, giving 73 average speed.
Otherwise you are absolutely correct and I hope that if he kills himself he doesn't take anybody else with him.
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Depends how he measures it. If you leave Alnwick and press the trip meter when you pass Hardy's and you stop at Chaddington then those 70 miles can be reasonably safely undertaken at 75mph slowing only for the cameras and a couple of roundabouts giving 73 average speed.
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Yes, I agree. Thats why I said 'significant distance'. You could obtain an average speed of 73mph by driving at this speed over a 1-mile stretch. But I assumed he meant obtaining a 73mph average over many miles.
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>Yes I agree
No I don't, quite! The above journey is 70 miles and is quite possible at that sort of average speed with little risk of damaging accident. But to do it door-to-door is impossible without breaking the speed of light.
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Mapmaker - You have intrigued me -- where is Chaddington??
I went to school in Alnwick and know Northumberland very well indeed and don't recall any place within 70 miles of Alnwick of that name.
Did you mean Haddington near Edinburgh?
Certainly the A1 and other A roads in Northumberland used to be a good for 'making progress'.
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>>Expanding one's horizons is a good thing Stuart.">>
I''ve driven many, many thousands of miles both in the UK and abroad over the past 40 odd years and in virtually every type of car on the market - anyone attempting to maintain an AVERAGE of 70mph over any reasonable distance cross country is not thinking either logically or straight.
I hold a high performance/safety driving course certificate from the Paul Ripley organisation in Leeds, but would never even think of attempting such a driving feat.
As I suggested previously, most people over estimate the potential average speed they can achieve, no matter what the type of journey.
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I think the OP has been sniffing the unleaded...
Via Michelin makes that journey an average of 45mph and that's with half of it done on motorways!
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Which journey Nsar, I haven't mentioned any journey. At least try reading what people have written.
Then consider I don't live in the UK and that I drive a high performance car easily capable of stopping as quickly from 120mph as most people's cars stop from 70mph and do it time after time after time.
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Nsar very clearly indicated he was referring to the Harlow to Burnley trip.
Well, Old Hand as this is clearly a thread about UK speeds, on a UK motoring forum, you cannot be surprised if people react badly to your descriptions of driving in foreign climes when the average reader will infer that they are in the UK!
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I though Nsar saying OP was some sort of insulting shorthand for me! If not, sorry.
I haven't described driving in foreign climbs exclusively. Neither am I bothered if the 'speed is bad' brigade (who are mostly clueless IMO) get their knickers in a twist.
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Then consider I don't live in the UK
Then I think you should make that plain when you write, to save having to make excuses afterwards.
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Speeds well into 3 figures? Naturally.
Speed doesn't kill, innapropriate speed kills and I certainly haven't 'attempted' to maintain an average of 70mph it was merely what I've seen on the computer after a bit of enjoyable driving.
In fact I'll enrage you still further by saying I averaged well over 80mph on roads that weren't dual carriageway.
Please note not everybody lives on that restricted little island you seem so obsessed with.
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>>Please note not everybody lives on that restricted little island you seem so obsessed with.>>
So you have deliberately wasted other forum members' time - you must have been perfectly aware that it would be assumed you were speaking about UK roads - and probably been smirking throughout.
The natural response to such chicanery is to take anything you state in future with the proverbial (and very large) dose of salt.
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When was the last time you have driven in the UK? As for the "inappropriate" slogan, thats a glib and meaningless cop-out. Before an incident you might claim "no risk", but you're in denial if you think that high speed on non-M way standard roads is risk free. Its the risk to others that's important. Glad you don't drive here: maybe you can't?
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Nortones- 'innapropriate speed' is what causes danger and unnaceptable risk it isn't glib or meaningless it's the perfect way of describing the main cause of accidents. Sometimes 20mph could be innapropriate.
Nobody has claimed no risk either, every time you get behind the wheel of a car you engage in an activity which is all about calculated risk. 10mph, 60mph, 120mph the speed is irrelevant.
The last time I drove in the UK was a few months ago and I'm happy to say that I legally drove in excess of 150mph.
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Speed doesn't kill >>
No, hitting something kills, 150mph without hitting something is safer than 30mph with hitting something. Which is wide road design and congestion should be tackled as opposed to ever decreasing speed limits.
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snipquoteNo hitting something kills 150mph without hitting something is safer than 30mph with hitting something.
Yes, but if you do hit something at 150mph, you'll die.
E.g., if the wheel comes off your car, you swerve to avoid an obstacle and go into the central reservation, etc.
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If you hit something at 70mph you'll probably also die, likewise 80, probably at 60 where do you draw the line?
Follow this line of logic to it's conclusion and you'd never leave the house......in fact you'd probably never get out of bed.
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People always over estimate their potential average speed especially on cross country routes. The real killer though (although the other half never accepts it) is having to stop every so often for a cup of tea or a toilet break...:-)
I find the killer is parking - I'll allocate 30 minutes for a 23 mile journey across motorway and A road, and then get there, but finding the spot, parking up, getting the family out can take another 10 minutes.
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I've seen crahses on cross country roads where an unseen tractor... etc..
madf
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Guys
I have come to the conclusion that 'OldHand' is simply a 'Troll'. He enjoys winding people up. Don't take the bait!
As for "stopping from 120mph quicker than most cars from 70mph" - I have seen this sort of dangerous nonsense before from people with no engineering or scientific background. Even 'run of the mill' braking systems are excellent these days, so the braking system is not really any longer the limiting factor for 95% of modern cars - its the adhesion limit of the tyre. Unless you can bend the laws of physics (which apply even outside the UK!) you'll struggle to beat 1g retardation.
The deceleration due to braking for a car is:
a = k_s g
k_s is the coefficient of static friction for the two surfaces (tyre on road). Even for an excellent tyre on high-grip road surface you would struggle to beat a figure of 1.2 The very best braking performance is therefore around 1.2g. Years ago I did tests at MIRA on lightweight sports motorbikes fitted with premium brand tyres and we got around 0.9-0.95g If you overdo it and ABS cuts in the the figure will be well below 1g (this is what normally happens in real life).
If you know the velocity when the brakes are applied, the braking distance is:
d = v t - \frac{1}{2} a t^2
So basically all cars fitted with similar tyres tend to have similar braking distances, and the difference between braking distances (on dry roads , before ABS kicks in) tends to be similar. The same applies to maximum cornering force that can be generated.
To do the calculations properly then you have to factor in things like weight transfer (relating to Centre of Gravity, roll, pitch etc) but none of them make the results better, only worse.
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I have come to the conclusion that 'OldHand' is simply a 'Troll'. He enjoys winding people up. Don't take the bait! Unless you can bend the laws of physics (which apply even outside the UK!) you'll struggle to beat 1g retardation.
You really need to let go of this vendetta you seem to have against me, quite honestly I think it's consumng far too much of your posting time and it can't be doing yor blood pressure much good, you really sound awfully bitter. I wouldn't dream of winding anyone up what would be the point? I'm just sharing my opinions.
It's true to say that a car equipped with top quality wide tyres, massive fade free 8 pot ceramic brakes will out perform a standard eurobox, despite it's weight. I think even someone as clearly biased as you will admit that.
Factor in better observation and thus reaction times and I'm certain my braking times will be much shorter than your average driver who passed his test and then left driver development on the back burner.
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For the sake of clarity I was refering to the Harlow to Burnley trip in the OP.
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As for "stopping from 120mph quicker than most cars from 70mph" - I have seen this sort of dangerous nonsense before
I was at school in the mid-fifties with among other people a rich Italian aristocrat with good clothes, a scornful manner and a foghorn voice. When the Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint was announced, this guy bawled that it could stop from 100mph in six feet (!!!). He responded very badly to my suggestion that if it could, which of course it couldn't, the result would be serious injury to driver and passengers (no seat belts in those days of course). But he just wouldn't listen, so one shrugged and walked away.
Five years later I heard he had killed someone in a car crash. Don't know what the car was but he had some money. Some people just aren't amenable to reason.
I don't know whether OH is a troll, but he certainly does his best to make us envious.
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>>he certainly does his best to make us envious.
Not me, Lud!
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he certainly does his best to make us envious
Speak for yourself. I'm quite happy with my boring life. Beats death!
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Sadly some of the comments above equate speed with danger. I'll say it again. Inappropriate speed is dangerous.
Many of the 'speed kills' brigade are precisely the sort that don't adjust their speed to match the circumstances and are in fact the dangerous ones on our roads.
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I'm going to stick up for Oldhand, here.
It is possible to make good average cross country speeds. Oppertunity comes into play as much as anything, together with knowing the road. I used to do a south Gloucestershire to Wrexham and vive vesa run quite often. Cross country via Shrewsbury, Leominster and cut across to Gloucester via Newent. Late Sunday afternoons in the summer, after the tourists and Sunday afternoon "see the countryside" road wanderers had disappeared and before the Sunday evening out for the night traffic, the road was near deserted.
I put no-one at risk, including myself, apart from the normal "risk" involved in doing anything. This never involved blasting through villages etc. Only speed which was safe for the prevailing circumstances (which change continuously) was used.
Knowledge of the road, the vehicle, the driver's limitations, weather conditions all play their part. Concentration on what is happening and reacting to the circumstances is the key. The ability to wipe sufficient speed off before the possibility of panic braking also helps.
In reality no speed limit is "correct" for all vehicles/drivers/situations.
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You really need to let go of this vendetta you seem to have against me quite honestly I think it's consumng far too much of your posting time and it can't be doing yor blood pressure much good you really sound awfully bitter. I wouldn't dream of winding anyone up what would be the point? I'm just sharing my opinions.
No 'vendetta' and no bitterness, I assure you. Its very entertaining in fact. I can smell the BS a mile away!
It's true to say that a car equipped with top quality wide tyres massive fade free 8 pot ceramic brakes will out perform a standard eurobox despite it's weight.
Ah, so are you really Lewis Hamilton then? I know he's been driving outside the UK quite a lot recently and has achieved some high average speeds 'across country'. LOL!
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It also depends where you live, what time you travel etc etc. For instance, I recall travelling back from a wedding on Saturday night (left at midnight) on the west coast of mid Wales back to Southampton (approx 220 miles) in 3 hrs 05 mins, keeping to all non-nsl speed limits.... the joys of the A44 in Wales :-)
Living in areas with heavily congested roads is a completely different scenerio.....
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Lets briefly examine speed and inappropriate speed. The first is where 120mph does not result in an incident. The second is where the speeder is found out. Its passing strange that most speeding convicts are male, and the death rate (received and imposed) is highest for younger males, but also their male elders, and for both is greater than for females. Aggressive driving has its pay-back. Source: brake.org.uk/resources/downloads/Road_deaths_and_i...f
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Brake aren't what I'd call a creditable organisation and aggressive driving has nothing whatsoever to do with making fast, effecient progress.
Probably some of the people that think it does would do well to read this and then get some training.
www.drivinghandbook.co.uk
As for the comments made by the increasingly tragic sounding guy with the grudge you're just making yourself look a bit sad. I have no idea what you think is 'BS' but this board isn't the place for that sort of behaviour.
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the link is censored for some reason most likely the h t t p.
www.drivinghandbook.co.uk
{As per the previous time you posted this link - The swearfilter picked it up as the first part of the link was the same as another banned link. Link now corrected again - DD}
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I enjoy reading OldHand. Stop knocking him.
His outlook is refreshingly different. We know he is :
a better than average driver whoconcentrates more on his driving than normal people
drives a faster car than most
recognises appropriate roads on which to speed and dangerous areas.
We should be grateful he deigns to grace this BB with his presence.
:-)
www.poetry-online.org/eliot_macavity_the_mystery_c...m
madf
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Old Hand, let's accept your word that you're the best driver here and could wipe the floor with any of us.
Can we leave it at that?
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Can we leave it at that?
Yes - agreed - PU Mod. - Thread locked.
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