"if I am in a queue to pass a slower vehicle and some pink fluffy dice undertakes me I do everything possible to stop him cutting me up and taking his place ahead of me in the queue"
Which actually makes you no better driver than them. Better to have someone who does this in front of you so you can keep en eye on them.
|
|
|
Cardew me old fruit. You have quoted me wrong again. I did not say I let people undertake me, I said I let one car in, in doing so one allows a car gap and a bit to develop If everyone did that then two lanes of road would be utlilised right up to the mobile pinch point, and good progress would be made by all.
Alas most of the outside lane, brake light flashers are pigs. Oopps it seems you are proud to be counted among that breed. Apologies.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
i'm often called a pig.......:-)
|
Only behind your back porkie ;-)
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
I undertook an old slow-moving Peugeot on the A1 in Germany last week. He knew that I was behind him, and the inside lane was clear, but he chose to stay in the fast lane to annoy me I guess. Childish. When I passed him on the inside his passenger whipped out a camera to photograph me! What do they think they are doing?! My car has French number plates, so presumably if he wants to try to "shop" me the police will have a job?! Not too worried anyway, surely I could claim entrapment?
|
|
|
|
RF
I am totally confused on your position.
Firstly let me make my position clear.
I am happy to wait my turn in a queue to overtake a slower moving vehicle in the centre lane. I do try, and succeed most of the time, to leave a good safe gap between myself and the car in front(the 2 second rule seems sensible to me)
However if someone undertakes me, I will not willingly let him push in front of me. That inevitably means closing the gap to signal my intent. If that is your definition of a pig - so be it. Although I hardly think that term makes a positive contribution to this discussion.
From the tone of your earlier posts I(and apparently Westpig and others) understood that you considered it acceptable to undertake in the scenario above - i.e. a queue of vehicles in the fast lane waiting to overtake a slower vehicle - and 'slip' into the queue. In fact I further understood that you wished to make this practice legal.
So perhaps you could enlighten us on your position about undertaking in that scenario. Acceptable? Or not acceptable?
|
In the scenario where there is a dual lane road, with a mobile obstruction (say a lorry) in the inside lane, and a Q of cars in the outer lane of, say about 15-20.
Frequently seen on the A14 btw.
Yes acceptable to cruise up to within 4 cars lengths of the lorry and "slip in" If everyone in the q'ing outside lane allowed one person to merge in turn at the mobile obstruction then our 20 car outer lane Q is actually only 10. The other 10 are in the inner lane, merging in turn at the pinch point. Everyone gets through just as fast
Afraid tho this conept seems alien to people in the outer lane with the "MY" place in the Q, "MY" bit of road, "MY" rights" mentality. In short a very selfish attitude. In fact it makes it worse because everyone is afraid to use the inner lane to its capacity. How foolish is it to have 1000 yards of unused roadspace on a busy road. All because of the "MY" attitude.
I see both the good scenario (in my view) and the selfish scenario on a weekly basis along a 30 mile stretch of the A14. In my experience, the good scenario is much less hastle, more relaxing, and provides better progress than the "MY" roadspace scenario.
I consider the assertion selfishness = pig to be valid. It works both ways to be fair. If one has the scenario of moble obstruction with a Q of 5 cars waiting to overtake, and car 5 decides to do a rapid under take to get in front of car 4,3,2 or 1, then a scenario of car 5 being forced under the rear wheels of a 38 tonner by car 4,3,or 2 I consider to be equally acceptable.
You see its all about selfish attitude. Be it Mr "MY" or be it Mr CAR5
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
You see its all about selfish attitude. Be it Mr "MY" or be it Mr CAR5
so..you're driving along perfectly respectably and come up behind others. You wait patiently, but would like to 'get a move on'.....then you notice someone else, driving in a similar fashion come up behind you. They too would like to 'get a move on'. Instead of waiting behind you, they go for the inside lane...undertake everyone......and ineviatbly 'force' their way in, because usually they won't be let in.
Throughout this selfishness, the whole time I, waiting patiently for the queue to end, am considered to be the 'pig' and it's me driving selfishly because i'm guarding MY space.....
Good Lord, you learn something every day. I can only speak for myself, but the MY bit only kicks in, when someone else who'se exceedinbly selfish, thinks "I can't be bothered to wait, despite the fact all this lot are waiting patiently" and then decides to commit a driving offence to gain a bit more progress......and often commits another offence to force themselves in. Yes, i do become a bit MY space in those circumstances.
It's like waiting for a beer at the bar, it's your turn next, when the brash type breezes in and shouts at the barman despite the fact it's glaringly obvious someone else was there first and is patiently waiting to be served....i used to 'let them get on with it' and quietely seethe...not any more.....must be my age and increasing grumpiness.
|
Ok westie, scenario for you. ( I have seen this BTW )
A14 - one cruises along in the inner lane at 65mph, one comes up to a line of cars in the outside lane at 55mph. The inner lane is empty as far as you can see.
Q1 What do you do?
I continued along at 65mph in the inner lane for another 2 miles approx, "undertaking if you will" so many cars I didnt bother to count. After 2 miles I saw the obstruction in the innner lane about 800 yards away, traveling at approx 50mph with three cars behind it. Between 800 to 300 yards behind the obstruction, a gap appeared into the outer lane sufficiently large for me to pull into it without anyone being forced to brake.
At what point did I do anything wrong, legally or morally?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
A14 - one cruises along in the inner lane at 65mph one comes up to a line of cars in the outside lane at 55mph. The inner lane is empty as far as you can see.
etc.
If it's any consolation, TVM, I've done this on many occasions down this same (very unpleasant) road!
Frequently, traffic in lane 2 (of 2) will 'concertina brake' down to 20mph or less. What are you expected to do if you're in lane 1 and have a mile of empty lane ahead of you - slow to 19mph and hang back in an oh-so-British way behind a particular vehicle in lane 2? I think not.
My approach is to keep the differential speed with the other lane down to manageable proportions - say 20 mph max. Constant observation and anticipation have kept me out of trouble for 10 years on this road, and others like it. Keeping well left in the lane, dipped headlights and considering the use of the hard shoulder in extremis also come into play (though I've never had to make use of the last one!).
The 'concertina' effect mentioned above provides ample opportunity to safely fit into lane 2 in good time to overtake lane 1 traffic when the need arises.
Unlike many others on the A14, I often get from Cambridge to Huntingdon without once touching the brakes!
|
|
|
|
Well RF all I can say is I wouldn't have believed you could have written such a post!
|
What about every one being courteous and allowing full use of the road space.?
You are right - not at all like me.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
My final musings on this, and possibly an insight into why I am so vehement about it.
I face scenario every week. Each time mental turmoil goes on in my car. The thought streams centred around:
"if i stay on the inside lane no one will let me out" "its madness to Q for 400/600/800 yards when the inside lane is empty" "at what point do I use the outside lane" "when shall i use the inside lane" "where" "when" "am I being a pig" "is he being a pig" "shall I let him in" "I am now in the outside lane, if I go on the inside lane I will never get out again"
And so on.
You know what? Everyone is probably having similar mental battles. You know the outcome?
You have a stream of cars all doing 55 mph in the outside lane, the inside lane empty because they are all damn scared they will never be let back out again. For mile after mile after mile.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If everybody was in the left most lane that they could be in then it would be impossible to overtake. The fact that someone can draw level with you, never mind cutting in front of you implies to me that you should be in the middle / left hand lane yourself.
|
The fact that someone can draw level with you never mind cutting in front of you implies to me that you should be in the middle / left hand lane yourself.
what happens when you come up behind someone who they themselves want to overtake someone in front, but are being held up.....should they give way to you and immediately pull over?....and then before it happens, someone comes up behind you...should you immediately give way and pull left, or do you wait for the chap in front to pull in for you?
there are times when you have to be patient and wait.........there are times when a whole host of people are being patient and waiting for the queue ahead to speed up to the speed they'd like to travel at.........undertaking them and then cutting in isn't going to aid their patience is it?
middle lane hoggers and those that don't pull in quickly enough (or at all) when they've completed their manoeuver (i.e. when there's nothing in fornt of them holding them up) are the ones to blame......
two wrongs don't make a right......i.e. someone holding a queue up and then another one does an undertake to compensate........ am I on any moral high ground.....er, no...3 times yesterday, on a motorway i came up behind people, left them a nice gap... when they could have pulled over, they didn't........i hovered, got a bit closer, drifted over so that their offside mirror was visible...gave it 5 or 6 minutes...then gave up and er, undertook.....but i shouldn't have to should I?
|
|
|
"if someone undertakes me, I will not willingly let him push in front of me"
But why not? Are you really so concerned that someone will arrive somewhere before you? Let them get on with it. Leave a larger gap and they won't be 'pushing in front' they will be occupying a gap you have left for them - you may need that gap legitmately one day and you'll be thankful someone left it for you.
Remember the only vehicle you can control is your own. Accidents don't discrimate about who is 'right and who is 'wrong'. At 70mph I'm out to preserve my life - if that means letting a few nutters get in front of me so be it.
|
|
|
If everybody was in the left most lane that they could be in then it would be impossible to overtake*. The fact that someone can draw level with you never mind cutting in front of you implies to me that you should be in the middle / left hand lane yourself.
*I assume you mean 'undertake'?
Have you by any chance read the previous posts in this thread?
We have been discussing the very common scenario of a queue of vehicles in the outside overtaking lane(all travelling at below their desired speed) waiting their turn to overtake a slow moving vehicle in the middle lane.
Is not the implication of your post that the second car in the queue should immediately move to the left and get behind the slow moving vehicle. The third car overtakes the second car, the fourth car moves left behind car No 2 and fifth car overtakes the fourth etc etc.
So you join a queue of vehicles in the fast lane in the scenario above. What is your recommended action?
|
A lot of people on this thread could do with chilling out and relaxing a bit.
For crying out loud, its a car that takes you in a journey from A-B, not a gladitorial battle to the death
MTC
|
MTC,
Do you have a mundane A-B motor....or a somewhat glamorous looking chariot?.....:-)
|
From my observations;
1 Most of the drivers in the outside lane never leave it;
2 There are middle lane drivers;
Why should those in the first category get upset when my progress in lane 1 & 2 is quicker than theirs and I seek to use lane three to pass one of the second category! After all I will pull back in after my overtake (unlike them) and leave them to their suicidal dicing in lane 3.
The inside lane is the safest - it has a ready made escape route (hard shoulder).
|
|
|
By happy coincidence, my chariot is indeed of the glamourous looking variety (in my eyes anyway).
T'other funny thing, is that the cars in front tend to 'leap' out of my way when they see me coming in lane 3, in a 'parting of the Red Sea' type way :):)>> MTC Do you have a mundane A-B motor....or a somewhat glamorous looking chariot?.....:-)
MTC
|
T'other funny thing is that the cars in front tend to 'leap' out of my way when they see me coming in lane 3 in a 'parting of the Red Sea' type way :):)>> MTC
Would you argue with the local drug dealer?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
|
|
|
A lot of people on this thread could do with chilling out and relaxing a bit. For crying out loud its a car that takes you in a journey from A-B not a gladitorial battle to the death
Henceforth I wish to be known as General Maximus Decimus Meridius - commander of the Northern imperial armies.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
Nobody likes to admit they're wrong - or bought a duff car!
|
I am with Westpig and helicopter on this rather than HJ and TVM.
I can't claim never to undertake, but I don't like doing it and don't do it at any proper decent speed. It can be done, one can get good at it, but it's an added stress factor in the driving. If you come to grief there's going to be a long, difficult, tedious argument.
A traffic police blitz on slack-jawed carphounds - by no means all women helicopter - who hog the middle lane or the even worse elements who pull into the overtaking lane only to slow down and inch past the vehicles they have pulled out to overtake, would clear the air wonderfully. Trouble is they would have to recruit thousands of traffic police, and they aren't going to are they?
AS Westpig says, you sometimes have to be patient even if it doesn't come naturally.
|
I am with Westpig and helicopter on this rather than HJ and TVM.
Helicopter?
|
Helicopter?
Hallucination obviously. Sorry.
|
obviously your head is spinning lud ;-o
try gyrating sideways
ive lost the will to live reading all these posts :-()
|
Yup, the thread is going round and round rotor style.
Disconnect the tailfan and it will start to rotate us faster and faster in the other direction.
|
There probably isn't always a correct answer in this situation. At one extreme there's what we might call the 'TVM tendency' - the pro-active, if somewhat irritating (to the 'patient' queue) approach. As a former despatch riding hooligan I indulged in this quite often, but I had the advantage of superior acceleration & smaller size, as well as a smaller & less threatening profile being on a bike, so, I could often get away with this without provoking feelings of road rage. When a car driver executes this on the patient queue (PQ) , there's often a degree of co-operation needed, i.e. the PQ driver has to, in some degree let the TVMt driver in or else drive dangerously close to the car/obstruction in front. On a purely democratic basis, the TVMt driver is being undemocratic, by causing the PQ convoy to brake/re-adjust their following distances.
OTOH, is does seem rather ridiculous to be so bound by the invisible force field of social moral opprobrium, that you will stay behind an 'obstructing' driver on a multi-lane road forever, when a simple quick & *safe undertake (*caveat infinitum) allows progress. Much the same occurs when joining via a slip-road: Is it 'ok' to accelerate away from an obliging driver who moves over into lane 2/3, so that you're effectively undertaking him/her too? Good manners say 'no' , but good progess says 'yes'.
|
I confess to undertaking now and again. But only on reatively uncrowded M-ways when there's a middle-lane hogger and I don't want to use three lanes to do an overtake. I also hope it'll make the hogger think. That is my definition of 'undertaking' - apart from what the funeral boys do, of course.
However, I happily pass slower vehicles on their left when, on a clogged M-way, the speed in the lanes is continually varying. It would be daft not to. I disappprove of drivers who dart all over the place in pursuit of clear road and a few yards' gain each time. Every manoeuvre on a busy road creates a hazard if it causes other drivers to change speed or direction - which I try to avoid.
Two more thoughts:
1. On 4- or 5-lane M-ways lane discipline is always awful, even at non-busy times. I believe it's beyond the wit of most drivers to weigh up all that's happening and position their vehicle appropriately.
2. Have you noticed, where there's a warning of lane 1 becoming a slip road a mile ahead, how many drivers - of HGVs especially - move straight into lane 2? You've got a mile and about a minute to plan and execute your move for heaven's sake!
|
I'm with Mad Maxy on this. I don't like queue jumpers, but that is a different scenario to an uncrowded motorway with a middle lane hogger, or even someone pootling along in lane 3, when the other lanes are clear, oblivious to the tailback behind them.
So how do you persuade someone in the middle lane doing 60 to move to lane 1?
peanut
|
So how do you persuade someone in the middle lane doing 60 to move to lane 1?
Put on a special hat and clothes. Drive a garishly-coloured car. Do Your Duty.
|
I am not quite sure why the query Lud and Cardew - I am not a hallucination , I was definitely there in the mirror when I shaved this morning....
As I said above I think yes I am generally in agreement with Westpig. We've all been in the slow moving motorway traffic and up to 20 mph it is quite OK to undertake , nobody seems to mind.
Its the duck and dive lane change merchants who force themselves in that annoy.
Everybody objects to perceiving someone as 'getting one over them' by 'pushing in' in front .It is human nature to want to stop people doing this .
I am not sure that the American way is any better having been on interstates around Memphis looking for the exit and having huge American trucks overtaking on either side and sitting inches behind you like something out of Duel.
|
Very sorry helicopter! When I looked for the post I knew I had seen I couldn't find it. It is Cardew, not I, who casts doubt on your presence.
Hooray! I'm not gaga yet after all!
|
I am not quite sure why the query Lud and Cardew - I am not a hallucination I was definitely there in the mirror when I shaved this morning....
Sorry Helicopter, missed your post as it was 'above' earlier posts -
|
|
|
|
My post suggests that there should not be a queue in the fast lane at all as you should be in the middle lane until you overtake. Therefore I shouldn't have to move to the fastlane until I am overtaking.
Obviously this isn't going to be the case as there are some queues of cars waiting to overtake overtaking cars, but there is no reason why these large queues shouldn't be shortened by following this rule.
But the general situations I come across are cars that can't be bothered to pull over into hte middle / left most lane as they'll only have to pull back out again in half a mile / mile or so anyway. Or as was mentioned earlier stay there in case they can't pull out again when they need to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
