Autocar road test - New Mondeo - cheddar
The latest Autocar features a road test of the new Mondeo:

Round one the 2.0 TDCi trounces a 2.0 TDI Passat, round two it beats the 320d, Autocar reckon is is every bit as rewarding to drive as the 3 Series and although no more economical and not as quick they say overall it pips the 320d.

It is true to say that it is not a like for like comparison, the Passat and Mondeo are larger and therefore heavier though much more practical and space efficient. In 3 Series terms better perhaps to compare the 140 bhp 2.0 318d which is closer on price and performance to both the Mondeo 2.0 TDCi and Passat TDi 140 and, to be fair, more economical than both due in part to less weight.


Split this from HJ's original post as I think its legitimate due to the number of replies the OP generated, oh and altered the subject line accordingly - PU
Autocar road test - OldHand
That test makes me wonder yet again why Ford and the like lag so far behind BMW in their engine technology.

When I was in the market for a diesel vehicle I discounted offerings like the 155 Mondeo TDCi simply because they were nowhere near powerful enough.

Autocar road test - DP
That test makes me wonder yet again why Ford and the like lag so far
behind BMW in their engine technology.


The cars being about £10k cheaper model for model probably has something to do with it. :-)
Autocar road test - OldHand
I don't think 10 accounts for the engine differences, it's just that Ford short-sightedly don't bother making any decent diesel options.

I've driven the 155 and it's flat as a pancake - edit by DD. Now if they made a 6 cylinder with say 230bhp it might be able to drag that heavy body at a decent rate of knots and find a whole new niche in the market.
Autocar road test - DP
I've driven the 155 and it's flat as a pancake. Now if they made a 6 cylinder with say 230bhp it might be able to drag that heavy body at >> a decent rate of knots and find a whole new niche in the market.


The Mondeo will never be a niche product. For all its excellence, it's fleet fodder, plain and simple. User-choosers and allowance-takers will always choose a pov-spec BMW or Audis in preference to anything with a Ford badge on it, and fleet managers will always buy/lease on nothing more than price, running costs and emissions (for tax purposes). Gordon's CO2 based company car tax "changes" have hammered anything much over 2000cc, and private buyers will not buy a Ford in enough numbers to recoup the development costs.

I agree the product would be superb, but nobody would buy it! Those who would can't afford it, and those who could afford it, wouldn't.

Cheers
DP
Autocar road test - OldHand
Not quite sure why a reference to flatulence requires moderating but as they say 'it's your ball..........'.

Regarding DP's comments I think that's probably hitting the nail on the head. However I wonder if taxation is the reason for Ford power plants lacking the ability of BMW's four cylinder diesels? If they could make something like Alpina have made in the D3 I'm not only sure there would be a market for it but that it would be the kind of car that would improve the image of the whole brand.
Autocar road test - cheddar
The Mondeo will never be a niche product. >>


The ST is a niche product and has been since '98, there is also an active owners club (no, I am not a member though I posted on the forums) and those guys would surely have something to say.
Autocar road test - DP
The ST is a niche product and has been since '98 there is also an
active owners club (no I am not a member though I posted on the forums)
and those guys would surely have something to say.


Yes, but the market has changed significantly since the mk2 Mondeo went out of production. You could feasibly run a 20 mpg V6 as a company car then - Gordon would crucify you for it now both on company car tax, and tax on the fuel card that you'd need to feed the thing. Take the fleet / lease market away from a Ford, and it will flop.

Hardly anyone buys a new Ford with their own money, and especially not expensive range toppers. Rampant depreciation, badge snobbery and the availability of Audi, BMW and Mercedes badges on cheap lease deals and PCP's sees to that. Sure they're great value nearly new or used, but someone has to put it on the road in the first place.

I'd hope you'd know from my other posts cheddar I have nothing but praise for the Mondeo, and have owned one myself for 2 years now. But Ford haven't released a top end diesel with relatively high CO2 for a reason. Modern Fords are fabulous cars, but from a marketing point of view they are volume fleet products.

Cheers
DP
Autocar road test - OldHand
Hardly anyone buys a new Ford with their own money and especially not expensive range
toppers. Rampant depreciation badge snobbery and the availability of Audi BMW and Mercedes badges on



That's quite tragic isn't it. Personally it wasn't badge snobbery that put me off buying a Focus ST but rather the fact I couldn't actually get hold of one I wanted secondhand whereas there were a glut of Golf GTi's.

Similarly I think there are quite a few people out there who aren't so superficial (or aspiring to be upwardly mobile) who would actually buy a high powered diesel Mondeo. Perhaps though quite a few isn't enough to be financially viable.

Going away from BMW and looking at say an Audi A4 with a 140bhp diesel engine I personally would take even an old style TDCi Mondeo over one anyday for the simple reason that it's a better drive.

Shame not everyone looks at their car purchase from a pragmatic point of view.
Autocar road test - cheddar
>> I've driven the 155 and it's flat as a pancake >>


No car with 400nm torque can be called flat as a pancake, either there was something wrong with the car or with you driving, or you had just got out of an SL65 AMG!
Autocar road test - OldHand
A whump of torque that's over in a few seconds shifting a car the weight of a small house is exactly what I'd describe as flat- not as a pancake though ;-).

Whump, change gear, whump, change gear, whump, change gear. It's a flat, one trick pony with no character whatsoever and very little gusto.

Quoting transient overboost figures is over egging the pudding as well by the way.


While were at it it uses significantly more fuel than it's more powerful, smaller capacity counterpart in a BMW.

I wouldn't like to say what I was comparing it to in order to avoid rather pathetic accusations of 'boasting' but I have owned various renowned 'high power' diesels that knock the Mondeo into a cocked hat and I even thought they were flat.
Autocar road test - gmac
Guess you're not really a fan of diesel power then OldHand.
I thought the idea of diesel and torque was not to whump, gear change, whump, gear change etc... but to use taller gears and let the torque do the work.

I haven't driven the 2.2 TDCi Mondeo but I have driven the BMW 320d in both touring and saloon form. Economical on fuel below 90, horrible car on the autobahn. Never felt vibration like it since I had a bent drive shaft on a FIAT 127GT.
Autocar road test - OldHand
It depends what you mean by fan of diesel power. When I was driving 40-50000km per year then my 330XD was great for what it was, remapped to around 250bhp and a lot of torques it was fine for schlepping down the autoroutes and autobahns.

However to get any decent performance from it ie a sprint away from the peage booths the power delivery was frustrating at best.

I have no idea about the new 4 cylinder BMW's other than what I've read and an old E46 I had as a loaner which was the lower power 150bhp engine. I didn't experience any vibration.

Likewise the Mondeos I've driven have been great cruisers but what I was really wondering was why they haven't made anything with a decent amount of grunt like BMW have. I guess the answer is here on this thread, people who don't know any better actually think they HAVE got a decent amount of grunt. I guess it all comes down to what you are used to.
Autocar road test - gmac
I was checking back through the VW PD engine get's some refinement thread for the link to rototest but they have no figures for these respective engines.
It would have been interesting to see what the manufacturers vs. actual figures were.
Incidentally, for the 150PS BMW there was approx. 10% loss to the wheel which is pretty good for RWD.
I find with modern CR diesel engines you get the grunt (and the tyre wear) but not the noise and progress is pretty deceptive due to the missing exhaust note. My standard car has 340Nm tuned 435Nm (475 on overboost).
Autocar road test - OldHand
It would have been interesting to see what the manufacturers vs. actual figures were.


I don't know about these new VAG diesels but our old PD150 MKIV Golf which was an 'old skool' 8V unit was rolling rolled as 168bhp standard- even allowing for slight over-read this was significantly above stock. When remapped it was giving a figure of 202bhp which again I think is slightly over the true figure.

However what can't be disputed is the fact it managed 0-60 in 8 seconds flat on the strip in standard form even with a ham fisted clot like me at the wheel. Significantly better than the manufacturer claimed.

VW underplays it's figures in my opinion.


Oddly enough this car with it's impressive on paper figures was one of the most short lived and least fun cars I ever owned. I couldn't wait to get rid it was quite simply a vile car.
Autocar road test - cheddar
Whump change gear whump change gear whump change gear. It's a flat one trick pony
with no character whatsoever and very little gusto.


Now that does not describe it at all, using the tque from 1700 - 1800 rpm allows a very wide speed range in any gear and relaxed though quick progress.

Quoting transient overboost figures is over egging the pudding as well by the way.


Transient overboost is marketing speak, it gives you 400nm when you need it and not when you dont need it.

While were at it it uses significantly more fuel than it's more powerful smaller capacity
counterpart in a BMW.


Not true IME.
Autocar road test - OldHand
Your comments about the BMW V Mondeo fuel economy are incorrect according to both manufacturers figures and road test figures.

Your idea of 'relaxed but quick progress' doesn't match with mine.

A Mondeo cannot sustain it's overboost- therefore it isn't a relevant figure. For example some of us accelerate until the vehicle will not physically go any faster in our daily driving lives.
Autocar road test - boxsterboy
For example some
of us accelerate until the vehicle will not physically go any faster in our daily
driving lives.

>>

Eh???

I've only ever done this on a track.

Sadly most of us have Road Traffic Act laws to obey in our daily driving lives.

Or am I missing something here?
Autocar road test - gmac
SNIP! ({The lazy method of quoting everything you're replying to has been removed and simply summarised instead - DD}
Sadly most of us have Road Traffic Act laws to obey in our daily driving
lives.
Or am I missing something here?


Probably one word missing: Autobahn.

Get away from urban areas and it's you & your right foot vs. physics.
Autocar road test - cheddar
Your comments about the BMW V Mondeo fuel economy are incorrect according to both manufacturers
figures and road test figures.


No, I suggested that due to size a 5 v Mondeo comparison is more relevant.

A Mondeo cannot sustain it's overboost- therefore it isn't a relevant figure. For example some of us accelerate until the vehicle will not physically go any faster >>


You dont understand, transient overboost allows the ecu / engine to provide additional torque when it is really needed i.e underload and depending certain perameters such as throttle position etc, this so it gives a real slug of torque when it is needed and not when it is not needed which improves the drivability, and perceived refinement. A slug of torque at an inapropriate time can can make a car feel unruly, i.e. pulling out of a side turning in first as opposed to overtaking on a A road. However even if overboost is not called upon at low revs then max boost will still be achieved at higher revs, i.e. overboost does not effect max power.

It is really a marketing term to cover the ability of the ECU to provide additional torque when it is required and not when it is not required.


Autocar road test - OldHand
Firstly you didn't make the fact you were comparing a 5 and a Mondeo very clear


Secondly it's still over egging the pudding to quote transient overboost torque figures as they don't apply in all road conditions. I know how it works, I do understand- I just don't agree that it's a figure you can quote as applicable 100% of the time.
Autocar road test - cheddar
Firstly you didn't make the fact you were comparing a 5 and a Mondeo very
clear


Apologies if not, I think I said something along the lines of a Mondeo is closer in szie to a 5 etc.

Secondly it's still over egging the pudding to quote transient overboost torque figures as they
don't apply in all road conditions. I know how it works I do understand- I
just don't agree that it's a figure you can quote as applicable 100% of the
time.


That is rather like saying you cannot quote power and torque figures for a car with TC because it does not allow the power and torque to be applied 100% of the time.

Clearly it is marketing speak that has backfired on you.
Autocar road test - rtj70
"The ST is a niche product and has been since '98"

Compared to the 3 series BMW, you could call all Mondeos a niche product :-) 3 series BMWs been outselling them for years.

And I know the new Mondeo (and the old one for that matter) are much bigger then the 3 series. The new Mondeo saloon is actually 3mm longer than the current 5 series saloon. And about 40+mm wider too!!! A lot of car for the money then.
Autocar road test - Stuartli
The new Mondeo saloon is actually 3mm longer than the current 5 series saloon>>


Wow! Think of all that extra luggage space....:-)

That near two inch width boost will also come in handy....
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Autocar road test - OldHand
Clearly it is marketing speak that has backfired on you.


Not really, what we have here is a car that runs two sets of maps. The higher power isn't available throughout all driving conditions. As I said it will not be producing that figure during high speed acceleration and when giving it's top speed.

That's why the 155 Mondeo is a poor second on the autobahn.
Autocar road test - rtj70
"That's why the 155 Mondeo is a poor second on the autobahn. "

I am now assuming some of this said tongue in cheek to get a response??

Besides, most on this forum probably live in the UK so top speed limit is 70mph so even the slowest Mondeo will break that easily ;-) How many of us will drive at the top speed of their car? The 2.0TDCi in the new Mondeo is good for 130mph. And destricted AutoBahns are not so common as they once were. Not sure what the previous 2.2TDCi did but it will have been higher.

Also when at top speed isn't it more power than torque that counts?

So far, anything other than a Bugatti Veyron is a poor second on the autobahn :-) And that could go faster if it was not speed limited because the fact it's tyres would not cope day to day if spec'd for 270+mph.

In fact we all know if we want to get from A-to-B as fast as possible point to point we will all buy a helicopter.
Autocar road test - gmac
So far anything other than a Bugatti Veyron is a poor second on the autobahn
:-) And that could go faster if it was not speed limited because the fact
it's tyres would not cope day to day if spec'd for 270+mph.


The Veyron's tyres might be able to cope as they are currently good for twenty minutes flat-out but the tank can only supply enough fuel for twelve mins. So really, sat at 155mph, you'd probably still beat a Veyron from Muenchen to Berlin due to his frequent stops.
Autocar road test - cheddar
Not really what we have here is a car that runs two sets of maps.
The higher power isn't available throughout all driving conditions. As I said it will not
be producing that figure during high speed acceleration and when giving it's top speed.


You either dont understand, dont listen, or RTJ70 is correct, however I will bite and repeat what I said before, transient overboost allows the ecu / engine to provide additional torque when it is really needed i.e underload and depending certain perameters such as throttle position etc, this so it gives a real slug of torque when it is needed and not when it is not needed, however even if overboost is not called upon at low revs, i.e. the driver decides to accelerate gently then max boost will still be achieved at higher revs, i.e. overboost does not effect max power.
Autocar road test - rtj70
I personally want max torque all of the time, including reversing in car parks ;-)
Autocar road test - ziggy
You either dont understand dont listen or RTJ70 is correct however I will bite and
repeat what I said before transient overboost allows the ecu / engine to ....


SNIP! - {No need to quote everything to which you're replying to. Simply either summarise or use "in reply to" instead. DD}


But I'm interested in power at a certain revs. That is why we look at torque as well as power - because we want to know what is available. Also I would think it is more economical, less strained to have the torque available at the lowest revs. Also it sounds like bad idea for towing.

And how long does overboost last for..? How long does it take to overtake an HGV...?

I can see the appeal, but it just sounds a bit too clever by half.

Autocar road test - cattleman6
It depends what you are really looking for. I have no doubt the chaps doing these tests have reason to say what they do. With the public it really is down to personal preference.
I find that certain magazine car tests are done with the testers not having the cars for long.Bluntly I have found they are wrong at times. I like it when testers have cars for longer before they come to conclusions.Under those circumstances I am very happy to accept the final result even if it is not what I want to hear.

Autocar road test - rtj70
I think road-tests in magazines are all fine except you need a long test drive yourself (at least 48 hours) to decide if you like a car. I can sit in a car and find I do not like it quickly but finding out the niggly things you do not like takes longer. Apparently the pedals in the new C-class are offset - very poor design in 2007 and it still has a foot operated parking brake on the manual!

I do think the new Mondeo is very good (not driven it yet) but if you're after a premium badge then you've made up your mind before sitting in it and driving it. The previous E-Class Merc was poorly built and unreliable but people still bought what was perceived to be a quality car. The E-Class before that was prone to rust wasn't it? And some of the Bangle'ised BMWs sold because of the badge - we have to admit they were not the best looking cars.

Because of the size comparison of a 5-series vs. new Mondeo saloon.... looking at the Mondeo and adding nearly all options to a Titanium X 2.5 turbo it is still cheaper than the cheapest 5-series (523SE) without any options. The Mondeo I spec'd up had 18" wheels, adaptive suspension, active bi-xenon lights, DVD navigation, heated seats front and back etc. To make the BMW attractive for resale you'd need leather, sat nav, etc. which are very costly.

But after you drive them off the forecourt the Ford has just lost a huge amount and the BMW has just lost a lot... and that is why people buy BMWs, Mercedes Benz, Audi etc. although...

.... going on list price a 523SE costs £28,625 (insurance group 17) and retains 45% after 3 years, thus losing £15,700. The Mondeo 2.5T Titanium X (without options so closer to the BMW spec and only insurance group 14) costs £22960 and retains say 37% thus losing £14,465. Retention values from AutoExpress not me. Question is which depreciated more in real terms? I'd say the BMW as you've lost an additional £1,235 and insurance will have been more. I have ignored repairs, cost of run-flats on BMW being more costly, servicing, etc. The Mondeo is even the quicker car. And spec the BMW to match the Mondeo and the difference will be bigger.

People will still buy the BMW because of what others think though.
Autocar road test - cattleman6
I accept what you say; but I would still buy a new Avantgarde C Class. They have spent an absolute fortune and gone to endless trouble fixing the famous quality issues. They say there has never been a more tested Mercedes than the new C class. I actually found the driving position very comfortable when I went for a test drive the other day.
Autocar road test - rtj70
"I accept what you say; but I would still buy a new Avantgarde C Class"

That's part of my point. You have decided you want a marque like Mercedes. Even if the Ford had every option available as standard, did twice the mpg, emitted less, etc. etc. you probably would still make the same choice. And it is our choice what we choose to drive at the end of the day.

If you saw how many neighbours are having the loft or cellar converted (big Edwardian houses to start with) or the garden landscaped you'd realise it is all in image. One immediate neighbour got a low spec C-Class last time round (now on an E-Class) and winged about lack of space. Could have got an alternative with space but "needed" the badge because of what clients would think. Everytime I looked at the previos silver C-Class with black plastic door handles it told me they wanted a Merc but could not afford a proper one ;-)
Autocar road test - cattleman6
You don't have my point. I don't want Mercedes for image, after all I am delighted driving my incredibly reliable god looking Seat Toledo since the end of 1999. If you actually knew me or any of my friends you would know I never care a dam about keeping up with the neighbour and swank etc.
All my life Mercedes have interested me ever since I took a ride in a 180 D in the fifties. Certain Mercedes I really like.

{SNIP! Unnecessary quoting removed ONCE MORE! Please either summarise the quoting of who you're replying to, or use "in reply to xxx" (and preferably before you start typing, not afterwards - DD}
Autocar road test - barchettaman
Should I get a 155bhp Mondeo estate when the current Astra expires, then?
I don´t think our annual mileage warrants a diesel, but I do like the driving characteristics and the fuel economy. And we´ll be in the market for a big, fast estate by then. Any thoughts?
Autocar road test - OldHand
we´ll be in the market for a big fast
estate by then. Any thoughts?


The Mondeo isn't fast. It's adequate at best. If you want fast then an Audi RS6 might be more up your street.
Autocar road test - barchettaman
....an Audi RS6 might be more up your street.....

Running costs might be a wee bit steep though.
Autocar road test - rtj70
"All my life Mercedes have interested me ever since I took a ride in a 180 D in the fifties"

Have you not contradicted yourself here ;-)

You seem to want a Merc because of an exerience of a 180D in the fifties (W120?), i.e. wanting a Merc because it is a Merc. You might not care what other people think and I contgratulate that. But you want one because you want one and nothing wrong it that :-)

Not sure one of these would convince me apart from it being MB :-)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W120
Autocar road test - mr.freezer

I have read with interest all of the above so here is my tuppence.

It is not just the premium marks that Ford is going to lose out to. I for one would place most Ford and Vauxhall products below Peugeot, VW Group and Honda offerings due to the looks, slightly detached advertising (Champions League etc) and the sheer numbers on the road.

We can all choose our cars at work and we have around 3 or 4 Fords out of 100 odd cars.

The new Mondeo looks mundane next to 407 (my opinion) and the silver finish on the dash looks cheap and nasty (my opinion again).

The slight difference in handling over a say a 407 will not be noticed 9 times out of 10.
Autocar road test - cheddar
In brand credibility terms Ford are way above Peugeot and the 407 looks just awful, the rear of the saloon is not too bad though the wagon and the frontal styling in general is just laughable compared to the cohesion in many modern cars, even the Bangle beemers.

In styling terms Peugeot have lost there way in recent years a view reinforced by the recent horendous faceflift to the rather bland though good looking 307 (CC excepted, that was always awful to look at).
Autocar road test - flunky
In brand credibility terms Ford are way above Peugeot


Credibility perhaps, but image no, at least not on the Mondeo. The Ford Mondeo has a dreadful image as the sort of car driven by failing salesmen from Essex.
Autocar road test - rtj70
Think I am with cheddar on the design front. Ford in my opinion way ahead of Peugeot at the moment. and the Bangle BMWs apart from the 6 and Z4.

My next car has to be right but will also be chosen on CO2, list price, MPG and company lease price per month. Just like the current Mondeo. I did a spreadsheet to compare cost per year to compare the shortlist. The EuroIV diesel Mondeo was just ahead of the Euro III diesel Mondeo :-) And I don't really like Fords. But the dealer (less than half a mile away) has been surprisingly good. Much better than the local VW dealer.
Autocar road test - cattleman6
rtj70 We really have argued rather a lot over this. The " Honest john " writeups one of the best. I have true respect .
As regards to Ford mondeo, of course I think it is a jolly good car. I have done my homework.
I am in no way affected by badges. My present Seat Toledo TDiSE I have had since the end of 1999. It is an incredibly relable and good looking car.
With genuine due respect to you and everyone else, I want to either buy a new C Class Avantgarde or the lovely Lexus IS.
My very good friend I mentioned earlier will always like Fords.
Autocar road test - rtj70
I await the company list (probably a month from now) for new cars. I have had enough problems to not want to own more cars in the household - wife, stepson, and maybe soon other stepson. So company car again for a little less hastle.

I actually really like the Lexus IS... might me outside my budget though. Could afford it but like holidays as well. Before the Mondeo I really liked VAG (like you have now) and had a Golf GTI 1.8T (stolen) and then an unreliable Passat 1.8T Sport. But last time round (Oct 2003) no VWs on the scheme - only Ford and GM group cars. Now also Toyota and therefore Lexus. Ironically Leaseplan who provide vehicles is now owned by VW... but to VAG cars :-(

But I was surprised how good the current Mondeo is. I wanted to dislike it when I test drove at first a Zetec S on 18" wheels. It rode better than the Passat Sport. The designer was ex-VW of course :-) I didn't want a Vectra (to small in the back) so it was Mondeo or Jag X-Type basically.

The latest Mondeo (without the Ghia wood trim) is looking like a rather good car but a bit too big to be honest. Maybe with the new Avensis imminent a 180PS diesel version of the current one might be cheaper. Who knows :-)

List to test currently includes (including those for fun only):

- New Mondeo models (various engines, trim)
- Ford Focus CC
- Ford Focus ST3
- Lexus IS 220d
- Vectra VXR
- Astra Coupe Convertible
- Avensis (various)

And I've not been arguing honest :-)
Autocar road test - cattleman6
rtj70. If they put an automatic gearbox into the Lexus IS 220d, they will have an excellent car. Apparently Lexus found it hard getting the gear ratios right in the manual. When I sat in the driver's seat of the Lexus in a dealership, I was amazed at the comfort and the general build quality. Unfortunately it's carrying capacity in the rear is not great. The new Ford Mondeo is amazingly big if it is longer than the BMW 5 series.I know one very long car is an Audi A6. One motoring writer once wrote that it was nice, but if you can find a parking space. I see them sticking out of the parking spaces at the local airport.
Autocar road test - rtj70
cattleman6

The biggest concern about the new Mondeo is it's size. There is a chance they will be quite reasonable in monthly on the company scheme but I might be wrong. Don't want a Saab 9-3/Vectra for sure. Anything auto = might CO2 = high cost as company car.

Worst case scenario... I take the money and opt out. Then petrol vs. diesel not so important an argument :-) But I'd rather not have the hastle. I bet the accident in the hire car in Italy last year, still being investigated, where I was rear ended by an HGV will influence insurance for one.
Autocar road test - cattleman6
Thanks rtj70, I really liked the old picture and the website you showed. The 180 D was an old " Blue Cab" Dublin Taxi in the fifties. It was a blue colour. I know they were underpowered old " tanks"; but in their day they were probably quite fashionable.Around that time I was given a lift in an old Ford Prefect. They made a fizzy sound as well as the usual engine sound when cold.
Autocar road test - CJay{P}
I accept what you say; but I would still buy a new Avantgarde C Class.

Err.. I presume that you will have to spend a few million, since this would have to be a bespoke commission by Mercedes on your behalf. There si not such spec called 'Avantgarde'
Autocar road test - Sprice
Err.. I presume that you will have to spend a few million since this would
have to be a bespoke commission by Mercedes on your behalf. There si not such spec called 'Avantgarde'



Oh good grief, has the backroom really become this tired and picky?? Lighten up people!!!
Autocar road test - Bill Payer
>> 'Avantgarde'
Oh good grief has the backroom really become this tired and picky?? Lighten up people!!!

I find Cattleman6's posts somewhat bizzare, but I believe he is based in Southern Ireland, where there is indeed an Avantgarde (rather than Sport) version of the new C Class.
Autocar road test - flunky
.... going on list price a 523SE costs £28 625 (insurance group 17) and retains
45% after 3 years thus losing £15 700. The Mondeo 2.5T Titanium X (without options
so closer to the BMW spec and only insurance group 14) costs £22960 and retains
say 37% thus losing £14 465.


think the Mondeo would do somehwat better than 37% as residuals on old ones will be hit by release of new model.

you'd also get a better discount on a Mondeo.
Autocar road test - Altea Ego
Well the mondeo may be the best car since sliced bread, but it has one serious fundamental flaw.

I saw one this week, and in the flesh, its HIDEOUSLY UGLY

From the rear, and rear 3/4 it is foul.

I have also seen, in the flesh ( - cant tell you how or why, but you may have noticed I have been away) the new laguna. It makes the Mondeo look like old mother rileys boot.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Autocar road test - cheddar
I have also seen in the flesh ( - cant tell you how or why
but you may have noticed I have been away) the new laguna. It makes the
Mondeo look like old mother rileys boot.

>>

Disagree TVM but then you like the 407 which says it all!


www.specsavers.co.uk
Autocar road test - wantone
Specsavers.
Rose tinted ones for you cheddar where the blue ovals concerned.
Autocar road test - cheddar
snipquote PU
Not at all, I also like the new Laguna from the pics i have seen though TVM's comments "HIDEOUSLY UGLY" etc are rather OTT.
Autocar road test - Mondeo - LHM
I have to agree with you TVM. I had the misfortune of seeing a 4-door saloon on the road yesterday, and from the rear it really is a bit of a mess. The front's not too bad, but it looks like they gave the back end design to the work experience lad.

I couldn't find a single rear-on picture of the 4-door anywhere on the Ford UK website - I wonder why?........
Autocar road test - J Bonington Jagworth
"People will still buy the BMW because of what others think though"

And quite a few who don't buy them for the same reason.. :-)
Autocar road test - Bill Payer
I always had Fords when I was younger (I worked for Ford) then as company cars I drove Cavaliers, Sierras, Mondeo, 405, 406. ? all your typical reps cars, although I generally got top spec versions. The RWD Sierra 2.0 GLX and Mondeo 2.0 Ghia were very good cars. The 406 Exec?s (esp with the 2L petrol turbo engine) were lovely motorway cruisers.

I opted out of company car scheme a couple of years and had 3 day trials of Honda Accord CDTi, Mondeo TDCi and Mercedes C200Cdi Estate.

There?s no doubt in my mind (and that?s what matters, because it?s my money) that, in everyday use, the Merc is just in a different league, in terms of fit, finish and overall quality ?feel?. Its fundamental design seems so much more complete than any of the others. You just don?t get the B pillar wind noise that seems to affect all Mondeos at 45+, or the side windows getting filthy in wet weather that made 406 Estates dangerous to drive.

I think it?s entirely feasible that a Mondeo would out-handle C Class (my Mondeo?s body control was awesome) but the only people who drive within a million miles of the handling limits of a modern car are magazine road testers.
Autocar road test - OldHand
the only people who drive within a million miles of the
handling limits of a modern car are magazine road testers.


I really take exception to comments like this, it's slack thinking and short sighted.

Here's a scenario for you- accident on the motorway up ahead, despite your good observance at the last moment a panic stricken driver swerves into your path. As your car has excellent handling capabilities you are able to steer your way round the problem onto the hard shoulder and into safety.

Here's another one-accident on the motorway up ahead, despite your good observance at the last moment a panic stricken driver swerves into your path. As your car has mediocre handling capabilities you are unable to steer your way round the problem and t-bone the other car at 20mph.


The first is active' safety rather than the second relying on'passive' safety measures such as air bags, side impact bars and crumple zones.

I know which scenario I prefer
Autocar road test - Altea Ego
with a car that handles really well at the limit, the more chance you have of keeping it upright if you do accidently find yourself at the limit.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Autocar road test - Bill Payer
mediocre handling capabilities


That's the point though, isn't it - modern cars don't have "mediocre" handling - they're all pretty good, with the differences being marginal.

What it much more likely to help you avoid an accident are things like electronic stability control - which all MB's have all been fitted with as standard for years. It's reckoned hundreds of lives a year would be saved in the UK if all cars had it.
Autocar road test - OldHand
modern cars don't have "mediocre" handling - they're
all pretty good with the differences being marginal.............avoid an accident are things like >>electronic stability control - which all MB's have all been fitted with as standard for years.


I find it rather tragic that people think like that- there are plenty of modern cars that have poor handling. Maybe not dangerous but in a life or death situation certainly very compromised.

Furthermore in some circumstances ESP is actually counterproductive.

The better a car handles then the more chance a driver has of avoiding an accident IMO.
Autocar road test - mss1tw
I find it rather tragic that people think like that- there are plenty of modern
cars that have poor handling. Maybe not dangerous but in a life or death situation
certainly very compromised.


Cough Astra cough
Autocar road test - Bill Payer
there are plenty of modern cars that have poor handling.

>>
Presumeably then, in the interests of safety, you drive what is - in your opinion - the best handling car available?
Furthermore in some circumstances ESP is actually counterproductive.

You're probably one of those people who are terrified of speed limiters as you must retain the ability accelerate out of "danger".
Autocar road test - OldHand
Presumeably then in the interests of safety you drive what is - in your opinion
- the best handling car available?
You're probably one of those people who are terrified of speed limiters as you must
retain the ability accelerate out of "danger".


Sometimes when I read comments posted by otherson this website I wonder if those that post them are actually have any interest in cars.

Anyway, yes the cars I own are picked because I feel they are some of the best handling in their class/era ie Audi RS4 with it's quattro drivetrain, Golf GTi V with a forgiving FWD chassis and a 6 series BMW which is fantastically adjustable/predictable.

Speed limiters I don't feel are a good idea for various reasons, the ability to accelerate beyond some arbitrary limit being one of them.

Do you actually have any idea why ESP can be counter productive in some situations?
Autocar road test - Bill Payer
Do you actually have any idea why ESP can be counter productive in some situations?

Power sliding around bends?

Many of these driver aids could be considered to be a bad thing as they take away the need for people to be able to drive capably, however the fact is that few people can.

You may be able to think of situations where an ESP system would be counter productive for you, but for the vast majority of people in the vast majority of emergency situations, it would be a good thing.

In fact the example you used (swerving to avoid another vehicle on a motorway) is a perfect example of where ESP would work well for most people if its intervention was needed.
Autocar road test - barchettaman
I have a sneaking suspicion that OldHand is, in fact, Nigel Mansell. Go on, deny it ;-)
Autocar road test - Blue {P}
I've only ever had one situation where I was pleased not to have traction or ESP, the vast majority of times it is a major driving aid and would overall be a positive step for the majority of drivers.

Blue
Autocar road test - OldHand
I didn't suggest it wasn't a 'positive step' merely that it isn't the panacea for a poor chassis that some people seemed to say it was.............
Autocar road test - cheddar
Had a look at two Mondeos at the dealer today, a Zetec estate and a Titanium X hatch, the latter was great spec with the 2.5T engine, both however have extensive areas of brushed aluminium on the dash, lokks superbly put together though would take getting used to. I understand the Ghia / X has a rich wood effect so not exactly subtle, why not ebony like my current Mondeo Ghia X I wonder, tastful and more subtle.

They are good looking cars though both the front and rear lenses are a bit OTT, chrome etc, moving on from the trend started by Lexus and taken on by most 17 to 20 year old Saxo and Corsa owners.
Autocar road test - daveyjp
I saw my first one on the road yesterday. It was in a traffic queue and I was just behind it in the adjacent lane. In front of it was a new Passat and behind a Laguna, so useful for size comparison. The Mondeo appeared much bigger, especially the distance between the rear door and the end of the car - the boot must be huge.
Autocar road test - Brian Tryzers
It is - on the estate I looked at, certainly. It's not just the length - it has a low floor and small side windows, so the shape is excellent and you can stack a lot in while still being able to close the load cover. If it'll take three boosters across the back seat - or two boosters and an adult, which we often want to do - it might change my mind about whether we really need the bulk of an S-Max. (Not that the Mondeo is exactly petite, of course.)
Autocar road test - stevied
I am not "terrified of speed limiters" I am terrified, per se, of creeping Big Brother legislation in general.....

How long before we are speed-limited, alcohol-limited, everything-limited?

Let's stand up for freedom while we can eh?
Autocar road test - Pugugly {P}
eh ?
 

Value my car