I see that "What Car?" refers to 'ageing pumpe duse technology'
How ageing is it - i.e. When did VW first market a vehicle with PD technology?
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You could get VW Golfs with PD engines in 99, but I don't know if that was the first usage.
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>>Oh well that's reeeeeaaally good news then. Ho hum. <<
Life must be great being as cheerful as you are jase1.
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I thought it was around 98 or 99.......the only useful info I can Google is that the 2004 Jetta was the first car to be so-equipped in the USA.
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My PD is 2001, my fathers non PD was 1999, so its somewhere in the middle.
How do you know the C-R will be refined? I drove mine to Chester today and you would'nt know it was a diesel apart from when stopped for traffic and even then it was never tractor like. But I'm wasting my time telling you that............
;O)
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Not surprised!
We have a few neighbourly A3 and A4 2.0 TDis and friends with the same and they are very noisy when cold compared to my 119,000 mile CR TDCi and are more thrummy on the move, though not as thrummy as a 1.9 130 to be fair. One mate commented on how my Mondeo is quieter on idle that his E-Class (OK that is CR) and an ex colleague did a 100 mile round trip in the Mondeo and was suprised it was diesel, they had at the time an Ibiza TDi and a 9-3 2.2TDi in the family.
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Also the idea of driving single HP pumps per injector off a belt driven camshaft is illogical engineering, at least the PD pumps should have their own drive or the cams should be chain driven.
All being said I would not rule out an A3 or A4 TDI at some point.
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I went in my brother in law's Passat TDI (PD 130) over the weekend for the first time in ages, and was shocked at how gutteral and noisy it is compared to the Scenic's 1.9 dCi unit. It's the first time I've been in it since owning a "modern" diesel myself, and the gap in refinement is very apparent.
Mind you, the punch from the PD engines has always impressed me a great deal, and it still does. Even in a big hunk of metal like the Passat, the 130 unit still performs superbly. It's just a shame it's so crude sounding.
Cheers
DP
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The real problem with PD technology is the lack of ability to provide 'pilot injection' and hence some of the refinement that CR diesels enjoy. But in the efficiency stakes CR is only just catching up to PD.
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But in the efficiency stakes CR is only just catching up to PD.
Really? CR diesels were bettering PD in the relationship between power, torque and economy yet alone refinement in 2001/02. Renault DCi's Ford TDCis and BMW CR diesels.
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Also the idea of driving single HP pumps per injector off a belt driven camshaft is illogical engineering at least the PD pumps should have their own drive or the cams should be chain driven.
It may be illogical but the PD engines are quite durable compared to many common rail diesels, and dont tend to give much trouble with basic maintenance (like using the correct oil).
Yes PD motors are less refined at tickover but as soon as you get rolling that is gone and you are left to enjoy the sheer punchiness of their performance. I have been in several common rail diesels (eg Merc C class) that are more 'dieselly' in the cabin than any of my PD engined VW's or Audi's.
The engine I realy admire is the BMW CR 2.0 unit. This is so quiet its astonishing, however that said, I have been in mant of these and in the cabin its still no better than PD engined Passats or A4's.
So my point is, that I am more than willing to live with the slight lack of external audio pleasure of the PD unit given its other strengths.
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Stop wasting your time Roly, clearly were both deaf.
As for the comment about the "superior" Renault DCi all I'm going to say is BANG! Cheap to buy second hand, cheap for a very good reason.
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The new breed of common rail are very good indeed, the toyota T180 engines are really great from what i have driven. They sound hardly anything like a diesel engine, only for a few seconds under acceleration do they sound faintly like a diesel engine. To match the refinement they have buckets of shove, 400nm of torque and 180bhp makes it a very decent engine, returning up to 56mpg but more realistically 42-45mpg... it begs you to drive it with gusto.
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As for the comment about the "superior" Renault DCi all I'm going to say is BANG! Cheap to buy second hand cheap for a very good reason.
Rubbish!
There was one problem (sticking EGR valve) which caused turbo failure on SOME early engines. This was fixed nearly 4 years ago!
In every respect apart from bottom end grunt, it beats the pants off the PD to drive quite frankly. Infinitely smoother, far quieter, and a much wider useable rev range.
Cheers
DP
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Cheers DP
I speak from having owned both PD and CR cars and CR is just to fragile I Wouldn't have a Renault Scenic again if you paid me. First one old shape fine 130 k no problems the DTi engine was fantastic and introduced us to the pleasures and perils of Renault ownership. Until recently we had a current shaped Scenic.
Problems - one Turbo problem (yes it's a 1.9) power steering (twice) air con (loads of problems) and all from a 54 plate car with 30k on the clock Renault have twice said we must be abusing the car ? and the conversation with the sales manager went like this on my last visit. "well we won't be buying another Renault again - I also run a Laguna 1.9 Dci - to which he replies - well if you don't Renault Uk won't notice as they just will have to pre-reg one more - Attitude that says it all
So we now have an Seat Altea with a PD engine - louder yes but it is just a much better car. Wife happy wallet happy and the Laguna is being replaced by a either a Fiat CR or a Vw PD.
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>>I Wouldn't have a Renault Scenic again if you paid me.
Sorry to hear about your problems. We've put 3k on ours now (just about to hit 40k) and it literally hasn't missed a beat. We're delighted with it. One minor fault (slightly misaligned sunroof panel) which was present when we bought it was fixed first time under warranty by the dealer, no questions asked.
Cheers
DP
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I speak from having owned both PD and CR cars and CR is just to fragile I Wouldn't have a Renault Scenic again if you paid me. First one old shape fine 130 k no problems the DTi engine was fantastic and introduced us to the pleasures and perils of Renault ownership. Until recently we had a current shaped Scenic. Problems - one Turbo problem (yes it's a 1.9) power steering (twice) air con (loads of problems) and all from a 54 plate car with 30k on the clock
I really can't see how you attribute your problems to it being Common Rail. Power steering and air con have absolutely nothing to do with the engine, and I would be surprised if the turbo had problems because it beigng CR. Maybe just a bad turbo or do you have more info that confirms that it was to do with being attached to a CR engine?
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I really can't see how you attribute your problems to it being Common Rail. Power steering and air con have absolutely nothing to do with the engine and I would be surprised if the turbo had problems because it beigng CR. Maybe just a bad turbo or do you have more info that confirms that it was to do with being attached to a CR engine?
He's changed his Renault for VAG PD and is so pleased with it he's considering changing his other Renault one of two other cars, one of which is also VAG PD
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Yes PD motors are less refined at tickover but as soon as you get rolling that is gone and you are left to enjoy the sheer punchiness of their performance.
They are punchy though not class leading in ths respect however they are also "thrummy" at speed and under acceleration compared to for Ford, BMW, Toyota, Renault and PSA diesels to name but a few.
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They are punchy though not class leading in ths respect
I have yet to drive another diesel that pulls so well from right at the bottom end.
One of the things I loved about the Golf TDI 130 that I borrowed from my father-in-law last year was the fact you could just stick it in 4th at anything over 30 mph and have instant grunt on tap. This engine was awake at 1,300 RPM, and pulling hard by 1,500.
This goes some way to compensating for the lack of refinement. You can make excellent progress without ever exceeding 2,500 RPM.
In the little Skoda Fabia vRS it's actually quite exciting. Chucks the car down the road like it weighs a couple of hundred kilos.
Cheers
DP
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I've just been out to walk the dogs and chose a section of main road about a mile long between Crewe and Nantwich (A530?) as part of our journey. At cruise on the 40MPH stretch not one car engine could be heard over tyre roar, that includes all makes and engine types. The only engines heard were older type rear drive Transit diesels of which I am a fan (the Transit is the only van I'd own, so I'm not a totally blinkered VAG fan).
Ask a second hand car dealer if he'd buy a pre 53 plate DCi........I know the answer;O)
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Ask a second hand car dealer if he'd buy a pre 53 plate DCi........I know the answer;O)
Mine's not, thankfully! :-)
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Currently I have a Fabia vrs with the 130bhp VAG diesel and a Scenic 1.9dci although about to change the Scenic for a Seat Altea XL with the 140bhp VAG diesel!
The skoda I love, huge power, great delivery, can be economical if you want it to be, absolutely no qualms about the engine at all. The car overall is noisier however much of this I put down to the low profile tyres and stiffer suspension making road noise louder.
The Scenic has served me well, no signs of any of the alleged EGR issues . Economy has been disappointing and the power delivery, although good, is probably more "spread out" than in the Skoda. Certainly not the best from first gear!
One of the reasons I plumped for the Seat as a replacement was the way the engine drove and delivered, very much reminded me of the Skoda (for obvious reasons).
Can't say that I have noticed the engine noise to be worse or better than in the Scenic, when I first drove the Altea i felt that it sounded noisier, or rather that there was a noise present, but after a couple of miles it either disappeared or no longer was noticeable.
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I have a Mitsubishi with the 140bhp VAG and it is noisy. But having said that a lot of modern cars are so quiet inside the cabin that it is overly soporific and dangerous. My 530d is very quiet when cruising.
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The Scenic has served me well no signs of any of the alleged EGR issues . Economy has been disappointing
What are you getting MPG-wise Bobby?
Ours (a Grand Scenic so a bit heavier) is averaging 41 mpg so far with a mix of town and long runs. On a recent 40 mile motorway run, I'd filled up before I left and reset the trip. I stuck to the speed limits (indicated 80-ish most of the way) and at the other end of the journey it was showing 48.5 mpg average, but it does quickly drop around town as you say. I suspect pure town driving wouldn't see much more than 37-38 mpg. It is a little disappointing in this respect, and our 1.4 petrol Fiesta is more economical full stop. A chalk and cheese comparison I know.
One unusual thing on this car is that the fuel computer is very accurate. The "real" brim to brim figure has never been more than 0.5 mpg different to the computer readout.
Cheers
DP
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Come on Pendlebury I'm still waiting for an answer, how do you know that VAGs common rail diesel will be refined as in your subject heading?
I think its a shame that VAG are taking the backward step to common rail just because its cheaper to produce and before someone says they allredy produce the V6s etc with common rail this is only because there's not enough room for the injectors between thr two banks of cylinders.
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I think its a shame that VAG are taking the backward step to common rail just because its cheaper to produce and before someone says they allredy produce the V6s etc with common rail this is only because there's not enough room for the injectors between thr two banks of cylinders.
I think you are over-simplyfying things here. Its is true that the unit injector design makes the cylinder head complex and expensive to make, however the technology lifecycle of PD means that it will become very difficult to meet some of the future emissions requirements in the pipeline for diesels, as well as the fact, as I mentioned earlier, that PD ha sreached its refinement limit due to difficulties providing for 'pilot' injection. I have to admit albeit sadly that common rail has come of age and now most the reliability issues seem to have been ironed out seems to be the way forward. In its day, back in the late 90's and early 20's PD was a huge leap forward over the old standard direct and indirect injection methods then widely in use.
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VAG decided years ago to abandon PD for cost reasons in favour of CR and so curtailed developement.
If you had to invest in developement of PD or CR to meet future emissions targets knowing that PD would cost 50% more once it got to the production stage which would you (or more to the point the bean counters) choose? Knowing that 99% of the car buying public would'nt know the difference between a turbo and an axle stand?
People buy cars on price and if VAG can reduce their prices then they'll snare more customers in the long term.
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I'm not aware that there is any reason other than cost to curtail the Bosch PD. Later versions (170ps) have a piezzo-electric controlled injection function, so multiple injection timing is present. Pilot injection has been available on PD from the outset. SFAIK, there is no real difference between CR and PD as delivery methods except for cost and that PD still gives higher pressure at the nozzle, and thus better atomisation. Refinement is nothing to do with the method of providing pressure, but the timing of the injection is.
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Other than the spelling of "piezo", I agree entirely with the comments above.
Unit injectors (everyday speak for PD) have been in use for years on commercial diesels and achieve higher fuel pressures than is possible even now with a common rail system. Consequently, in terms of sheer engine specific efficiency, the PD is hard to beat. The VAG engines deliver their stated efficiency in real life - in my experience, many others don't.
I think VAG did make one great mistake. Commercial engines have geared camshaft drives which accomodate the unit injector loads and last the life of the engine. VAG use a belt. I think they probably gambled on belt technology improving during the lifespan of this engine - it hasn't. Belt change intervals have been progressively made more frequent in order to minimise casualties, such that these engines are now uncompetitive in this respect (see my thread "uneconomic to own two VAG diesels"). I do my own belt changes - no problem for me, but I wouldn't want two of them.
I will miss the sheer efficiency of these engines though (you can all argue about refinement differences, but these are "down in the noise" for similarly configured engines of either type). Rudolph Diesel would have loved it.
659.
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On claimed versus real power, www.rototest.com/index.php?DN=33 gives performance graphs for over 500 engines. The 1.9 in the Skoda FabiaVRS gives slightly more power than claimed, at the wheels, not the flywheel. No wonder it goes well! Autocar had a link to this site and found that some engines were down by over 20%.
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With all the uproar about belt intervals you'd think broken belts would be common place, but they don't seem to be so, even with the confusion over whether its 40 or 60K miles for PD. Thats not a question by the way, I know when my belt is due ;O]
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On claimed versus real power >>
The graphs from the chipers / tuners are interesting, for instance Superchips:
VAG 1.9 130 diesel, clamed 130bhp / 330nm, actual 139bhp / 337nm.
VAG 2.0 140 diesel, claimed 140bhp / 340nm, actual 148bhp / 336nm.
BMW 2.0 150 diesel, claimed 150bhp / 350nm. actual 148bhp / 349nm.
Ford / PSA 2.0 diesel, claimed 134bhp / 340nm, actual 152bhp / 351nm.
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I was referring to engine specific efficiency - no reference to fuel consumption here.
659.
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I must admit my new Ibiza 1.4 tdi is very noisy when its cold- more than nearly any modern diesel especially as its 3 cylinder. But on the move its as refined as my old petrol Ibiza was.
Anyway I quite like the hammery type noise mine makes- it sounds purposeful!
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>>Come on Pendlebury I'm still waiting for an answer, how do you know that VAGs common rail diesel will be refined as in your subject heading?<<
Give me a chance Dox - I have other things to do as well.
Anyway - the point about refinement was made by the article:-
Having finally accepted that the ageing pumpe duse (unit injector) technology has been surpassed in terms of refinement and efficiency by nearly every other rival, Volkswagen will fall into line with accepted wisdom and fit its new 2.0-litre four-cylinder engines with a high-pressure, common-rail fuel system to the Tiguan.
The point though is that refinement is relative.
If you run a tdi back to back with say a BMW, HDi or Honda diesel then there is no doubt that the VAG engine is less refined. It has loads of torque but is certainly down on refinement relative to the others, although as your deaf - as you say - you would not notice and cannot comment.
I guess you should direct your point to VAG - they clearly disagree with your point or they would not be changing.
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VAG are changing to CR because of costs and if you read the above its not only me that says so.
Anyone can copy / paste, have WC driven the new CR diesel? No, they're using artistic licence and saying its more refined and you fell for it. The moons made of cheese you know, I've read it somewhere
;O)
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If it's not more refined then VW have got a problem on their hands.
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Wensleydale - I believe.
I don't disagree that I was posting a link - that is exactly what I did and yes anyone can do it.
I am not sure what point you are making ?
Of course they have not driven the new CR - VW have not produced it yet - have WC driven many other CR's - well yes.
If what you are saying is true then - I do find it a shame that VW are now denying customers a better product just for cost though - most other companies would have the courage to stick with their convictions.
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>> The point though is that refinement is relative. If you run a tdi back to back with say a BMW HDi or Honda diesel then there is no doubt that the VAG engine is less refined. It has loads of torque but is certainly down on refinement relative to the others >>
When I chose my Mondeo as a company car five years ago (I subsequently aquired it as part of redundancy) a Passat TDi 130 Sport estate was towards the top of my list however the Mondeo was more powerful, more torquey, at least as economical and much more refined.
The fact that five years later and at nearly 120k miles it's engine is more refined than the latest Passat 2.0 140 /170s tells me why VAG are dumping PD for CR.
That being said a 2.0 PD is not so bad that I would rule out buying one.
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In reality the majority of these will be bought as company cars new and it is the emissions which influence many - 5g on the CO2 is 1% of car value onto the tax bill.
Real question is will the CR be lower emmissions - and the last time I changed the Honda CR was way lower than the VW PD.
I am not too worried about waking the neighbours when I leave for work, next door but one has a Vauxhall van and he leaves before me!
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Autocar in their car test gives these results for engine noise.
Passat 2.0 TDi ----------------(New) Mondeo TDCi 2.0
idle, 49dba --------------------------54dba
max revs in third, 72dba ----------72dba
30mph, 62dba ----------------------65dba
50mph, 64dba ----------------------68dba
70mph, 68dba ----------------------69dba
Alan.
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Obviously the mic was under the bonnet when doing the readings for the Mondy and locked inside a suitcase in boot of the Passat.
;O)
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If that is the new Mondeo then that has the Ford / PSA belt cam engine so does not relate to my perception of the difference between a 2.0TDi and my own Mondeo which has the Ford / Jag chain cam engine, also presumably that is inside the car because there is no doubt that a 2.0TDi is much noisier externally at idle than either of the above mentioned Ford engines, cold or warm, though VW have undoubtably done a good job at sound deadening as have Audi in the A4.
Also just to say noise is one element in defining refinement.
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Yeh, yeh, whatever, keep moving the goalposts to suit you.
Who cares what a car sounds like on the outside? Its inside that counts to the buyer. If you read my previous post re my main road noise survey and do your own you'll see that engine noise at cruise on a 40MPH stretch of road can't be heard over tyre roar anyway whatever make of car / engine type
;o)
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Yeh yeh whatever keep moving the goalposts to suit you.
Who has moved the goal posts, the thread is about refinement, somone mentions noise specifically.
Who cares what a car sounds like on the outside?
I do, I know that when my car is started early in the morning it is fairly restrained however I also know it when one of the neighbours starts their 2.0 TDi.
;-)
However it is also clear to me that while the Mondeo settles into a steady almost petrol like idle the PD 2.0s, like the 1.9's emit a thrumm through the car at idle that may not be loud inside the car though can be felt as a vibration.
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5 Seconds after starting my car I'm on the move, 10 seconds later my neighbours can't hear me. One neighbour has a diesel Frontera and diesel van, the other a Mitsubishi people carrier and a selection of petrol gardening equiptment. Do they care about me when I'm in bed after a night shift with their comings and goings or garden titivation? Not one jot and neither do I, I wake up, turn over and return to my slumbers, as do they when I leave at 6AM for a day shift.
Anyone who has external engine noise as a top priority when buying a car needs to see a doctor for help with this serious affliction
;O)
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LTIs outside the house at some unGodly hour is loud enough to wake the dead.
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Anyone who has external engine noise as a top priority when buying a car needs to see a doctor for help with this serious affliction
Anyone who thinks the VW PD diesels are refined needs help too. Maybe it's nothing to do with the PD technology and the forthcoming CRs will be equally agricultural.
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we have a bora 1.9pd 100hp, neighbour has a senic cr and it is a lot noisier with less performance. jag.
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>>If you read my previous post re my main road noise survey<<
That is the trouble with stuff you read Dox - someone recently gave me some good advice about not believing what you read. I will try and recall who it was that told me. Maybe you can help me ?
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That is the trouble with stuff you read Dox - someone recently gave me some good advice about not believing what you read. I will try and recall who it was that told me. Maybe you can help me ?
You've conveniently missed off the bit where I said to do your own survey, don't take my word for it I'm deaf. It'll do you good to get out a bit.
;O)
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Anyone who has external engine noise as a top priority when buying a car needs to see a doctor for help with this serious affliction
Think again ! At least they'll still be on good terms with their neighbours and these days we all need to concerned about noise pollution.
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Anyone who has external engine noise as a top priority when buying a car needs to see a doctor for help with this serious affliction"
Does this affliction apply to V configuration petrol engines, if so I am sick, very sick...
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>>You've conveniently missed off the bit where I said to do your own survey, don't take my word for it I'm deaf. It'll do you good to get out a bit.<<
Good point Dox - you have got me on that one.
The best bit is that my survey would be useless to our discussion - I drive a petrol engined car.
Cheers
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The best bit is that my survey would be useless to our discussion - I drive a petrol engined car. Cheers
If you read the post I included all makes and engine types, only older Transit diesels could be heard over tyre roar at cruise on a 40 MPH stretch of road.
;O)
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Think again ! At least they'll still be on good terms with their neighbours and these days we all need to concerned about noise pollution.
You need to get yourself a proper hobby Mike if noise pollution is in your top ten of things to look out for when buying a new car. People going about their daily business make noise......period!
Keeping up with the Jones's, "My car makes less noise than yours", I have proof [waves a piece of paper]
What ever next
;O)
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Common rail technology differs in that fuel is delivered to all cylinders through a fuel rail that is pressurized by one single pump, with highly precise computer-controlled injectors. Common rail engines are capable of producing multi-phase injections (capable of injecting before and after combustion) for even greater efficiency, performance, refinement and drastically reduced emissions.
Sorry Dox but the above was taken from another motoring web site that focuses on diesels.
Their view is also that CR will increase refinement.
Presumably you are going to tell me not to believe this independent view !!!
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I'm sure that what they say is true, if they compare the older pumps to CR, but the CR method of control is no different to the later PD: piezo-electric injectors, linked to the ECU. Haven't seen anything that indicates that the method of pressurisation makes the slightest difference, except that PD still creates greater pressure at the point of injection:)
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Sorry Dox but the above was taken from another motoring web site that focuses on diesels. Their view is also that CR will increase refinement. Presumably you are going to tell me not to believe this independent view !!!
I could'nt possibly say, two sentences from an independant write up does'nt tell the whole story.
Before the release for the MK3 Golf gti the press speculated that the car would be superior to the MK2, It was'nt, It was a dog that should never have carried the badge.
The proof in the puddiing is in the eating and not what it looks like on the packet
;O)
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Yesterday swapped a 3 yr old Passat 1.9 PD (45k miles) for a new A3 2.0TDI (200 miles) for a colleague at work and drove both for 125 miles. Noise and smoothness, I thought the A3 was no better than the Passat at any speed. Recently hired a Megane 1.5dci 86 on hols in Spain - incredibly smooth and quiet, a class or two above the VAG units.
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A friend of mine has gone from a Fabia 100BHP tdi (electrical problems) to a Nissan Note DCi and he misses the power of the Fabia
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This is an interesting thread for someone like me who picks up their brand new Seat Altea TDI tomorrow............
However, every other thread relating to common rail diesel engines on here in last couple of years seem to be saying how unreliable they are, Renaults have had issues, Nissan have had issues etc etc. Don't put petrol in them or they will die, don't buy ones out of warranty etc etc so interesting to see a healthy debate on how good the common rail ones are now!
FWIW I have driven diesels from an M Reg Citroen ZX thru to my current Scenic dci and I would say that the best ones I have owned are
Fabia vrS
ZX Turbodiesel
Scenic (original pre cr) turbo diesel
And when I say better, I mean in performance and fuel economy. When I switched from the original Scenic to the dci, my economy dropped and performance did likewise.
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And when I say better I mean in performance and fuel economy. When I switched from the original Scenic to the dci my economy dropped and performance did likewise.
SNIP! Unnecessary quoting of post being replied to removed and summarised instead - DD
It could be me writing your post; we had a fantastic Scenic DTi did 136k before being killed by an uninsured driver. Car really stood up well to being hit @ 40 mph. We then bought a 2003 Scenic - mpg of the DCi engine at least 10 mpg worst and put the air con on and the power would just drop off. Yes it is quiter than the PD engined Altea but they are different cars, one was put together in an dire way the other is 13k without issue.
Seat Dealer is like a breath of fresh air and doesn't clench his teeth when you mention warranty like the renault one did.
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Which is hardly surprising considering the Note's dCi engine is only 86PS.
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"Recently hired a Megane 1.5dci 86 on hols in Spain - incredibly smooth and quiet, a class or two above the VAG units."
Agree 100%. A great engine particularly with the six speed 'box. I am not a great fan of VAG TDi's, way behind the pack at low speed refinement IMO.
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Recently hired a Megane 1.5dci 86 on hols in Spain - incredibly smooth and quiet a class or two above the VAG units.
This is my experience / view also. I had a Megane 1.5dCi 106 as a company car for a time, and the current 1.9dCi Grand Scenic, and both share the accolade of being the most refined, quietest, and above all smoothest four cylinder diesels (BMW included) that I've ever driven. Like all diesels, there's a bit of clatter at idle, combined with the tiniest hint of vibration through the gearlever and seat base. Above idle, the engine is completely smooth, and uniquely in my experience, there is none of that bassy diesel rumble whatsoever. Even when thrashed to the red-line you just get a distant, and very petrol-like growl.
It's not just down to soundproofing either. If you wind down the window when driving, these engines make a funny light "pinking" sound under acceleration, but I still wouldn't call it a traditional diesel clatter. Oh, and there's an amusing, soft "pitchoo" noise and the odd sigh from the turbo wastegate as you apply / lift the accelerator. They're fabulous engines in my opinion.
What they don't have is that sheer grunt or 50+ MPG economy of a PD, but to live with day to day, there's no contest.
Cheers
DP
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Autocar in their car test gives these results for engine noise. Passat 2.0 TDi ----------------(New) Mondeo TDCi 2.0 idle 49dba --------------------------54dba max revs in third 72dba ----------72dba 30mph 62dba ----------------------65dba 50mph 64dba ----------------------68dba 70mph 68dba ----------------------69dba
I own an A4 Avant TDI 140 and these figures are a bit of a surprise to me, but mainly the idle figure. Once you get rolling the figures will be mainly be taken over by tyre noise anyway.
PD engines vary widely in their noise at idle, and nobody realy knows why. For instance, I have had an A4 TDI 1.9/130 and my current car and they have never been as quiet as some Passats i have seen with the same engine at idle. MY dad has a Passat 1.9 TDI 100 and this car is whisper quiet at idle, but it gets driven in the most gentle way possible. However I saw an A4 TDI 140 yesterday in London and this was very quiet at idle compared to mine. I dont know therefore if engines driven hard will be quieter than 'vicar driven' PD engined cars.
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>>A friend of mine has gone from a Fabia 100BHP tdi (electrical problems) to a Nissan Note DCi and he misses the power of the Fabia<<
But Dox - this thread is about refinement - not power - the dci is 88ps vs fabia 100ps. I'm sure he does miss the power.
Refinement concerns all the normal NVH criteria - some of which can be fixed with soundproofing and some of which can be removed by engineering a different solution such as CR.
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>>Come on Pendlebury I'm still waiting for an answer, how do you know that VAGs common rail diesel will be refined as in your subject heading?<<
Just thought I would revive an old thread as the journalists are currently testing the VW Tiguan and it has the first VW CR system - what car said:-
"The Tiguan is the first car to get VW's revised 2.0-litre diesel, which has a new fuelling system that's done wonders for refinement."
So looks like the CR system does provide better refinement.
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Who says the new PD engine would'nt have been as refined? The've only dropped PD because common fail is cheaper, VW have said this themselves so it must be true. Large companies are run by bean counters not engineers, mores the pity
:o(
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As you say then Dox - mores the pity - there are not many companies that would produce inferior goods (if CR is inferior) for their customers just to save money - clearly not a business plan for long term customer satisfaction.
Presumably from what you say - it looks like VW diesels are now going to be less relaible.
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They will be more suseptable to problems by owners missfueling.
VAG did'nt invent PD technology, they copied it from large trucks who've been using it for some time, others could have copied it too, but did'nt, cheapskates......... In the modern world you have to be competative on price, if you can produce engine ancils 40% cheaper and still be as good as the competition then you'd be foolish not to do so, the consumer wants everything for nothing.
I work in the food industry, the product we make is inferior to the same product we made 5 years ago, the consumer and the supermarkets want BOGOFFS so we have to make it down to a price to make a profit.
Shame :o(
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This is all very interesting.
I have owned a pre-PD VW diesel (1.9 110) and we currently have a Skoda with the 2.0 140 PD and a Seat with the 2.0 170 PD.
My dad has a C-max 1.6 110 CR, my mother in a law a Fusion 1.4 CR diesel, both of which I have driven extensively.
There is no doubt, at idle and under acceleration the CR in the C-max is very refined indeed compared with any of the others. However, I like my diesel for the shove it gives me, and the C-max just drives too much like a petrol engine for me to really enjoy it. My parents are both very gentle drivers and the C-max returns just over 50mpg in daily use, which I think is excellent. However, I could easily achieve this with my old 1.9 110, driving it much harder.
Both my Leon and SWMBOs Skoda live up to their quoted economy figures, yes they are noisy at idle but on the move I notice little difference in refinement. I will miss the shove of PD torque from low revs if it is to be replaced with CR for good. But I do feel a bit like a tractor driver when I head off for work in the morning.
Completely aside, the C-max has a five speed box but fifth is incredibly high geared, I think about the same as 6th in our two cars. I do wonder whether a better geared five speed wood be better than 6 on a torquey PD engine.
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