Drove though the Land Rover capital of Derbyshire today.
In one eyeful I saw a Range Rover, Range Rover Sport and a Discovery. All shiny and black.
Followed an 07 reg Range Rover Sport and it was puffing out black smoke regularly from the twin exhausts.
Clean up your act or shut down.
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diesel estates devalue the brand. They need to get back to what they were in the 50's and 60's makers of modern sporting saloons and sports cars.
The problem is the BiK rules. They MUST sell diesels in order to survive. Look how few big Lexuses you see - no diesel, you see.
I agree the X-type was a mistake, as was the styling of the S-type. Worlds away from an A6 or 5 series!
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We need not worry. We're living in Blair's Knowledge economy now - whatever that is. Anyway, we will be saved.
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They need to get back to what they were in the 50's and 60's makers of modern sporting saloons and sports cars.
Except that the market for modern sporting saloons and sports cars is pretty well sewn up by a rather successful and hugely profitable German manufacturer with a propellor logo.
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>>Jaguar have lost the plot lately. Warmed over Mondeos and diesel estates devalue the brand. >>
I completely disagree, the principal of making a decent car and adding value to it via a premium brand is sound, also the vast majority of the car buying public dont know that a X-Type is based on a Mondeo any more than buyers of a '93 to '02 Sabb 900 / 9-3 knew that it was based on the '88 to '95 Cavalier.
The difference is though that where as the Cav was not a good starting point for a sporty saloon the X-Type is actually a better car for being based on the Mondeo. In fact it would probably have been more successful had it not been 4wd (which added to costs, and meant that the Mondeo hatch / saloon rear suspension was ditched in favour of a less sophisticated set up based on the Mondeo estate) and instead used the ST220 chassis set up to make it a true FWD 3-Series competitor.
Interesting, no ref to Volvo?
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>>Interesting, no ref to Volvo?
Sorry, Volvo still conjures up Werther's Originals to me.
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I think there are plenty who would like an alternative to the red-and-black macho style of a BMW - people who enjoy driving but who don't want to look as if they're trying to compensate for something. They'd like something that reflects its origins in classical British design but without wallowing in them, as recent Jaguars have done. 'Modern traditional', in other words - as we discussed in a thread of that name the other week.
I think the new XK achieves this brilliantly - it's as svelte and modern as the old one was comb-over-and-blazer-with-brass-buttons, yet still unmistakably a Jaguar. I've not seen any clues as to how the S-type replacement will look, but rumour suggests that's a looker too. I really hope so - I'd love to see Jaguar make a car I'd actually want to own. My worry in the light of this week's news is that, without access to Ford's development money, Jaguar will go the way of Rover, unable to keep its products modern enough to compete with BMW and Audi. I can see them five years from now still desperately trying to flog the current X-type while the bailiffs are carting away the machinery.
As for estates and diesels, anyone who says Jaguar shouldn't make 'em is part of the problem. Too many perceptions of Jaguar - including Jaguar's of itself - date from the 1960s, when diesel was for lorries and estates were for, well, someone else. Today's buyers like diesels because they're economical and relaxing to drive, and they like estates because they have families and clobber to carry. No-one here (OldHand possibly excepted }:---) ) suggests that BMW should stick to petrol-powered saloons, do they?
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The market Jaguar really need to crack is the USA. Diesel is an irrelevance there. I understand in today's world that diesel options are necessary, I just don't think the jaguar brand is the one to carry it. Ford should have left Volvo to the diesel estate market and concentrated on must-have fast saloons. They could still share the platforms. Ford have made the mistake of BL in the 60's and 70's, they competed against their own brands instead of making each brand distinct and concentrate on beating the opposition.
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They should have kept Ford as the mass-market rep and family choice. Jaguar should have kept to sexy, aspirational saloons and sports cars and Volvo could have been the upmarket Ford for the chattering classes. Instead, top end Mondeos compete with low end Jaguars and mid range Volvos.
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Instead top end Mondeos compete with low end Jaguars and mid range Volvos.
Ideal if they are 80% the same car and you can get £2000 more for one and £4000 more for the other, just what VAG do with Seat, Skoda, VW and Audi.
Ford's mistake was if anything making the X-Type too different from the Mondeo in dynamics terms. They should also have done a 2.0 4cyl 2WD petrol from day one, and the diesels came too late.
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We now have an opportunity, between Ford's announcement of its intention to sell Jaguar and Land Rover and any actual purchase, to be armchair motor industry bosses and lay out our fantasy future for Jaguar and Land Rover.
So here's mine.
Firstly I'd like to see them in British ownership as part of a larger organisation within the engineering world. There is one company that was talked about last time Jaguar sell-off was rumoured - I won't name it here but many probably know who I mean.
Jaguar should be aimed to take on BMW and Audi although they would probably be a smaller volume manufacturer. For eventual replacement of the current range, I'd go fro three basic models - one aimed at Audi A3 niche, one at BMW 3 series and one between the BMW 5 and 7 series. Plus of course coupes and a sports car to compete with the BMW Z4.
A Jaguar MPV would also be worth considering - in a world where BMW and Porsche make SUVs and VW make max-weight articulated lorries (in South America)
New in-house engine designs (predominantly diesels as they look to be the future for the i.c. engine) would be shared with Land Rover, as would other components.
My range of future Land Rovers would be two basic models - one of Range Rover / Discovery size and one of Freelander size and both would include commercial van, pick-up and double-cab variants and would thus replace the Defender too.
Further ahead I would, if possible, revive the British Daimler or Lanchester names (both former subsiduaries of Jaguar) for a prestige brand to compete with BMW's Rolls-Royce, VW's Bentley or Daimler-Benz's Maybach.
If everything goes according to plan, my new Jaguar / Land Rover outfit will be doing well enough to rescue MG from the Chinese owners in a few years time LOL!
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Let me get this right, SS - you'd take Jaguar away from a major car maker that allows it to pool its development costs and make it go it alone. Then you'd have it develop six new models from scratch, of which only one or two would compete in sectors where Jaguar is currently represented, so you'd need a marketing effort to win over four new groups of customers. I'm not sure where all this will happen but I'm thinking of clouds and cuckoos at the moment. }:---)
I do like the MPV idea, though. I think there's a market for something with the space of an S-Max and the interior ambience of a Volvo or even a Jaguar, but without the redundant 4WD gubbins that encumbers the present crop of premium seven-seaters. You have four years: build it and I'll buy one!
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Anyone considering buying Jaguar will need deep pockets.
The X-type is frumpy and over priced, the S type - designed for the over 70s, and the XK is for 60 something retired golf players
The XJ6 was always a great car, but satisfys a small segment.
IMHO the new owner would need to design and build new 3 & 5 series competitors to replace the X & S types, and a sexy little sports car for about £30k (F type?)
Unfortunately, the company would probably be bankrupt by then (unless the $ drops to £1 = $1)
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OK, potential buyers?
PSA, they have an interest in diesel engines for both LR and Jag plus commitments in the UK industry, component contracts etc ?
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Private Equity .. almost certainly.
Ford have run both companies with as much imagination and style as they used to design the Escort.
Turn it the other way round. Would I want to buy and run - or rather would I WANT to afford to run - any Jaguar? Is the driving experience worthwhile?
Based on my drives: a resounding no.
As I don't want a 4x4, I am out of the market for Land Rovers.
I'm NOT saying I'm a typical would be buyer but frankly neither range has a model which shrieks "Buy me!" - and is affordable..
I have not seen a Jaguar I wanted to buy since the Series 3 XJ6 .. and then the build quality was carp. Since then the styling has been carp.
As for LR, "expensive badly built unrelieable and costly to run" seem appropriate adjectives.
madf
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Turn it the other way round. Would I want to buy and run - or rather would I WANT to afford to run - any Jaguar? Is the driving experience worthwhile? Based on my drives: a resounding no.
wife's diesel X type isn't dear to run, not in the slightest. For what it is it's a smooth, classy, comfortable car. I'd agree a diesel isn't as smooth as a petrol, but that's the trade off for the economy.......... in comparison to many other diesel cars it's extremely good.... and look at how many diesels they sell nowadays
can't imagine the S type diesel is dear to run either.....maybe Tr7v8 can elaborate
Collared a Jag man at the Chunnell the other day (who was supervising numerous modern Jags who were coming back from a trip to a Chateux with prospective customers)...and asked him why no X Type auto.......stated it was because the Ford auto unit wasn't refined enough for the Jag, hence the wait until next year...seems good policy to me.......we would like the auto, but also want some refinement, so the wait would be acceptable...(now all i've got to do is afford it, which is another story).
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