I was amazed when in London in the past few years that anyone could consider these an improvement on routemasters with their difficulty in negotiating London Streets/junction and length. Today in the Evening Standard it reports that the powers that be (ie Mr Livingstone et al) have decided to increase the number of these 60 foot monsters despite the latest casualty figures: More than 5 accidents per year PER bendy bus - 75% more than other buses - 170% more collisions with cyclists - 115% more pedestrian injuries. Two people killed in the last six months alone. Doesn't mention if any cars are damaged but I suspect they are.
Basically one driver is driving two buses with three doors, so apart from the risk to other road users, far dodging is triple that on other buses.
Someone somewhere must be getting an incentive to order more of these!
Who elects these people?
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I did. Livingstone is a criminal and a clown and I wish I hadn't. (Not libel uttered by a citizen against an elected politician is it PU?)
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And I knoow your heart is in the right place deepwith, but call them articulated buses. 'Bendy' sounds friendly and flexible, not really worthy of an enormous elbow between 30-foot long members.
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I travel on these buses twice weekly - they are Mercedes Benz chassis with a Portugese Citario body and are very comfortable for taking one of my children to St Thomas Hospital. Improvement to a Routremaster well apart from Tourist PR they are Greener ie Euro 4 or Even Euro 5 compliant have a higher overall capacity are wheel chair and pram friendly and are blind and deaf friendly. The Length is an issue but the drivers recive special training. As for the stats what it doesn't say is who is at fault. With several high profile case of professional car crashers in the news in the last year could it be the LT is a high profile target ??
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they werent designed for our country but as said they are very euro compliant unlike the old dennis buses
air conditioned as well arent they
i like them but wouldnt drive one for a living
ker ching or not ,bring back young clippies
signed
.............butler
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The only time I have travelled on a bendy bus was returning to York Park & Ride. I don't think they thought the choice of bus through properly, as when fully laden (as they nearly always are) in grounded on the speadbumps/cushions on the car park approach road.
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when fully laden (as they nearly always are) in grounded on the speadbumps/cushions on the car park approach road.
Hoist by the carp council's own petard so to speak...
it's true they are fairly comfortable and warm to travel in. But double-deckers aren't so bad. People don't go in buses for luxury, they do it to get somewhere.
The 60-foot-long articulated bus is for places that have lots of space. It's a third world thing really. I saw them in Cairo in the early 70s, knackered, belching particulates, down on one side and with hundreds of people crowded into them and clinging to the outside.
Quite bb, bring back the chirpy clippie or clippo to entertain the travellers and keep order.
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What is this thing you commoners keep referring to as a "bus"?
Air-con? Not blinking likely! Hardly surprising civilised people use cars.
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air conditioned as well arent they
I went on one from Victoria to Park Lane on a warmish afternoon back in May and it certainly didn't feel air-conditioned in the back bit (which seemed to be about the only part of the bus without seats reserved for one sort of user or another). I was practically melting by the time I got off. Made me wonder whether the engine cooling system was up to the job, frankly. Oh, and seeing the front bit of the bus move about relative to where I was sitting was very un-normal.
Seeing as the back bit has the engine one assumes it has all sorts of anti-jackknifing devices fitted in the coupling bit, yes?
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the drivers recive special training. As for the stats what it doesn't say is who is at fault. With several high profile case of professional car crashers in the news in the last year could it be the LT is a high profile target ??
I hardly think a cyclist is going to take on a 60' leviathan!
And as for the special training - I assume this means NOT pulling into bus stops, not indicating, and not opening doors for those pedestrians who have just made it to the stop as you pull away. Along with continuing to use your mobile phone or listen to your MP3 as you drive, and pulling away sharply from a stop before the newly-boarded granny has had a chance to sit down. That's my experience of bus driver standards in London theses days.
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We've got them here in Chicago as well. They are doubtless more suited to our 4-lane, straight, downtown roads than London's roads, but they still manage to be a pain.
For instance if you're waiting for the green man to cross the road, one of these will frequently enter the junction at the last possible second on Amber and block the intersection. It's so long, that it also blocks all the people trying to cross as well, who are forced to walk 50 feet the opposite direction to get round it.
And even on these roads, they have a heck of a job turning.
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They were trialing two of these in Sheffield in the late 70s when I was at university.
They were famous for knocking over pedestrians ON the pavement!
Don't suppose fare dodging was a big issue then with average fares of 5p - Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire and all that!
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There are many things that transport for london does that infuriate me - but on this one they have my sympathy.
Just because there have been many collisions between cyclists and bendy buses does not prove that this is the fault of the bus or the bus driver. Many cyclists in central London are suicidal lunatics. Would you cycle up the inside of an 18 metre vehicle as it approachs a corner??? It is standard practice for many London cyclists.
Yesterday afternoon I was on a bendy bus approaching London Bridge. We stopped at a bus stoo (which in London is marked with both a sign and red tarmac). The driver had been unable to stop exactly parallel with the curb because of an illegally parked van. As the driver opened the doors two of these cycle loonies hurtled through the gap between the bus and the pavement - just missing people getting on / off the buses.
I am sure some of the bendy bus drivers could do with some re-education, but the bigger problem is cyclists who have zero common sense or risk awareness.
And as for the routemaster being better than a bendy bus? Usually said by people who didn't have to use the archaic things. I'm over 6ft tall - no good on a routemaster. I do not fit the seats if I could find one - I cannot stand upright if all the seats taken. On hi density routes, getting large numbers of people on/off the bus is much faster with a bendy bus.
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For some bizarre reason people presume that if it's to be spacious, wheel chair/buggy accessible and airconditioned it has to look like airport cattle truck. Has anyone been to Singapore recently and seen their double decker ultra low floor superbuses? Huge space inside, stepless entry, wheel chair ramps, climate controlled, look the part and Euro III compliant. You can see three door, wheel chair accessible Volvo double deckers all over Berlin as well. They are laso designed to take 130 people onboard, where the stonking bendy bus takes 140. We don't have to trade our landmarks for these monstrocities, we don't have to trade accessibility to have shorter vehicles on the streets. The solutions are available, they don't even have to be specially designed. Someone must have pocketed a lot of money for introducing those Mercedess Citaro dutcheshounds onto our streets but the idea is almost as insane as all of us in London switching to american low riders and massive pick up trucks. There is use and place for 18 metre hard suspension buses. Preferably for what they were designed. Airport transfers. But not on narrow streets of London.
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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And don't forget that on top of the cost of the buses there is the cost of 'reprofiling' countless curbs to accommodate them.
And we all know how 'cheap' (not) public road works like this cost us taxpayers, don't we now!
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"Don't suppose fare dodging was a big issue then"
It wasn't possible to fare-dodge. Because the law as it stood then was unclear, they were unable to charge passengers, so they were free (to the user, that is, not to the poor ratepayer). They were used on the central "city-clipper" route, if you remember it which was 2p any distance on the normal buses where you had to pay.
V
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Unlike the RM bendy buses go under low bridges.
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A double-decker is a much more efficient use of road space. In central London the buses go painfully slowly because there are just too many of them (and too many pedestrian lights).
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A double-decker is a much more efficient use of road space. In central London the buses go painfully slowly because there are just too many of them (and too many pedestrian lights).
And because the roads have been comprehensively re-engineered to hamper traffic flow, something that affects buses too.
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I work in Bath where they use these big artic buses on the route up to the university. The buses are not the problem, it's other road users who don't realise how long they are and get caught out overtaking them at stops or when they are grinding up the long hill to the uni.
On the question of accident statistics it's as well to remember that most years a few people are injured or killed on double-deckers that strike low bridges.
As they say, 'horses for courses' and artic buses are good for high density routes where the roads are suitable.
What is another welcome trend is that at last we are seeing properly designed small buses like the Optare Solo replacing the older ones built on van chassis.
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A friend of mine once said "Public transport is not only inconvenient, but distasteful"
I have to concur.
Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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Here we go again ..... horrid things tinyurl.com/37nbf6
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The bizarre tragedy in the East End is one thing (driver arrested, bus seized). But it is obvious to the meanest intelligence that anyone, or any organisation, that would inflict articulated buses on London, the original home of the excellent and compact double-decker, is not just an aesthetic and historical dolt but anti-British to the psychic core, a declared enemy of humanity and probably in league with Beelzebub.
The only argument in favour of the ghastly things is 'access for the disabled', as if entire busloads of disabled people were often to be seen in our cities.
Tchah!
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For any articulated moving objects (bendy buses, artics etc.) I observe simple rule, not going near them when they are turning....
The TFL loves bendy buses as they reduce cost, one driver for two buses. I drove bendy bus on computer games, and even there it was a nightmare to operate :-O
I prefer double decker buses to bendy buses. In the former, I can enjoy the capital form a height. Sitting downstairs, I couldn't see anything but crowd.
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Sadly someone was killed by a Bendy bus today:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
For that reason maybe we need to lock this thread in case someone says something that will effect this site? And we might discuss something unrelated to this particular tragic loss of life but ... just in case?
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No issue unless we discuss the specifics. This was the link that re-started discussion this morning. Happy to keep it running at the moment, usual rules apply, break 'em and its locked.
Thanks rtj.
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I'd assumed it was a new thread and a coincidence. I'd never read it before today.
Unless there are low bridges I do not see the advantage of an articulated double-length bus vs. a modern double decker. And we've had double deckers in London for so long the bridge issue is not a problem for most routes.
I assume you can fit a few more on these "bendy buses" but the sort of routes you can use them on has to be more restricted - they may "bend" in the middle but they need more space to turn than a normal length bus.
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Unless there are low bridges I do not see the advantage of an articulated double-length bus vs. a modern double decker. And we've had double deckers in London for so long the bridge issue is not a problem for most routes.
As well as the higher capacity, the bend buses offer easier and faster boarding, a much more comfortable ride, and greater passenger safety (ever been thrown down the stairs of a double-decker?). Complaints about bendy buses mostly come from people who prefer taking up ten times as much roadspace with a car.
I have a some sympathy with cyclists, but far too many of them cause their own dangers by sneaking through inside the buses. Some London cyclists appear to be competing for Darwin Awards
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Well, I cannot see it will prejudice anything to say, I wonder how a driver is supposed to know everything that is happening so far behind?
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They're an absolute menace to cyclists, though oberving simple rules that apply to any articulated vehicle will keep danger to a minimum.
Driver could pin a nearside running chancer/newbie to the railings and not know until the passengers shout.
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Aren't they longer than current articulated vehicles? Although I see Europe are pushing ahead with the 60 tonne ones now - they have TWO trailers one behind the other. We just had months of inconvenience when a local road over a railway bridge (A6 north of Stockport) was rebuilt for the 43 tonne ones.
I know I'd steer away from a bendy bus but I still do not see why they are better than a double decker.
Edited by rtj70 on 09/10/2007 at 23:25
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They are total rubbish. The arguments in their favour are total rubbish.
{Rest of post 8< snipped 8< - DD}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/10/2007 at 10:47
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They take up the room of two buses. And probably cost as much as two as well. One engine but the "bendy" articulated bit in the middle.
So why not two buses and two drivers? Okay drivers cost but that's another job and instead of one big bus you have two smaller normal size ones with twice the frequency. Paid for by improvement to services and more using them etc. One thing about public transport that annoys most is frequency.
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They take up the room of two buses.
Only when stopped. When moving, there's only one stopping distance to provide for, and that accounts for more roadspace than the vehicle itself.
So why not two buses and two drivers? Okay drivers cost but that's another job
The average bus probably requires the equivalent of two or three full-time drivers to keep it on the road all day. Do the sums.
and instead of one big bus you have two smaller normal size ones with twice the frequency.
The London bendy buses are only used on busy routes, where frequency is hardly a problem.
Paid for by improvement to services and more using them etc
Which is exactly what has been happening with London buses over the last few years, with a huge increase in bus usage.
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{Rest of post 8< snipped 8< - DD}
Thank you DD. I sometimes need saving from myself.
However I refer NowWheels to my post above, on the aesthetic, historical and practical offensiveness of imposing these space-guzzling third-world monstrosities on London.
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The attitude of a TfL representative on recent BBC London radio interview after the release of the shocking incident statistics for these monstrosities was a disgrace.
Another one caught fire last week as well. That's four in total, although the first since modifications were carried out in 2006.
I'm sure they work well in more modern cities with wider streets, but London's roads are narrow and hemmed in.
TfL won't even admit there's a problem with these things, so don't expect a quick fix.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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I don't understand the argument that bendy buses are more wheelchair/disabled accessible than modern double deckers.
All new double deckers bought by Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann either have wheelchair ramps or kneeling suspension. Most of them have three wheelchair spaces downstairs with the rest of the ground floor seating designated as priority seats for disabled and elderly passengers. The able-bodied passengers can climb upstairs or stand when the bus is full.
They tried bendy buses in Dublin, too, and had to restrict them to trunk routes and bus corridors because they wouldn't fit in the city centre. The replacement? Six-wheel double deckers. So if they work in Dublin, why not in London?
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I see no benefit whatsoever in the bendy buses. I do not believe that any of the above arguments in their favour is beneficial in central London.
Bendy buses take up twice as much room on the road as double deckers. In London. Because buses are generally moving at less than 10 miles per hour so the stopping distance is nil. Sorry NW.
All London buses are disabled-friendly; bendy buses are no more friendly than others. And in ten years living in London I have ONCE seen a wheelchair on a bus.
I cycled once in London. I was overtaken by a bendy bus (whilst cycling in a cycle/bus lane) that took forever to overtake me and wandered closer and closer to the kerb. I baled out onto the pavement and got rid of the bike forever.
Most of London's roads are completely congested. With buses and taxis. Eliminate 75% of the taxis; keep tourist coaches out of the congestion zone; ban double-length bendy buses; put the congestion charge up to £50 and traffic would flow perfectly well. But it wouldn't make money.
Buses are superb in London. Bendy buses are truly dangerous. I was once on one that got stuck on a traffic light as it was trying to turn a corner. They are not practical in cities although they do allow more rapid ingress and egress the Routemaster allowed yet better as you could get off at traffic lights.
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Might I suggest that the majority of posters here try before you buy !!
Say what you like but the Citario BB is more popular than the Decker - this is because TFL survey passengers (I have been asked twice in the last year) and the route configeration is worked out with the bus company respossible for example.
Passenger numbers, road access and need are all calculated hence SelKent ( a TFL bus operator) will use Deckers on some routes but not on others it will also use midi buses etc.
One of the benefits of a BB over a DD is that incidents of anti social behavior are lower and passenger number's have increase a quicker rate than on routes served by Midi buses or DD both of which were experiments in their former years and now accepted.
I used a BB when taking one of my childern from Victoria St Thomas Hospital and in terms of access a vast improvement no pushchair folding required .
gets my vote
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Bendy buses are TOO DANGEROUS for other road users, and should not be allowed on UK roads
they were originally excused as only for routes needing more capacity but with low bridges
I would ban them, they cause too many accidents, wipe out too many motorcylists and cyclists
They may be OK from a passenger perspective, but like left hand HGVs on UK roads they are an accident waiting (and frequently happening for real) to happen
Same as the way Ken is penalising folk driving automatic cars, dont think its very GREEN to force folk with dodgy knees to drive manual cars to meet some nonsense emissions agenda, lots of folk with dodgy knees do not qualify for disabled concesions
And 5 minutes helping the Chinese build better chimneys on their factories would do more for global warming than the whole of the UK stopping travelling all together would
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Many things are better from the user's perspective:
Smoking; bendy buses; murder; setting off firewords antisocially.
Doesn't make 'em better.
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On appropriate routes there is nothing wrong with Bendy Buses. The problem is other road users give them neither the space nor respect they deserve. If you are to ban them then why not artics? I have seen cyclists (and even one car!) trying to overtake them on the inside when they are turning left - the usual 'Brain Not Engaged' syndrome!
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On appropriate routes there is nothing wrong with Bendy Buses.
Where are appropriate routes? Milton Keynes perhaps. Certainly not London. You get a length of 'appropriate route' and then an inappropriate mile or so.
My experience is that you have to give articulated buses a much wider berth than artic lorries. That is because they bend in the middle instead of about a fifth of their length from the front. They stick their elbow out a good couple of feet in a way lorries don't. The things really are ridiculously clumsy for any road with traffic and bends in it.
I think a few car-hating politicos went for a ride in one, found it comfortable and went off sniggering at the mighty blow they were striking for democracy, the snivelling toads.
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