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Extremely unlikely to be the petrol. I would have said some kind of mixture problem during the warm-up phase. It only goes closed-loop once up to temp. I think the car needs monitoring from cold.
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Ok, I have had a few tanks of BP petrol now and there is no difference so the petrol isn't a factor.
Someone suggested it could be a temperature sensor telling the car it's warmed up when it hasn't? Does anyone agree with that?
I started the engine this morning (mon) and it hadn't been started since last Friday so it was very cold. Outside air temp was 16.5 degrees. As I said in the original posting, when it starts it idles on 1000RPM, I timed it this morning and just after a minute the revs drop down to about 750RPM. I think it's doing this too early and should stay up on 1000RPM until the engine is warmer. Does this sound too early to anyone else or is this normal??
Thanks!
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i would suspect an air leak is opening up on the inlet manifold side when you throttle the engine,once the engine is fully warm it can cope with this
take it somewhere where a man knows how to look at an engine and not just how to plug a hoover in to the fault codes box
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A minor air leak on the inlet manifold usually results in higher idle speed, not lower.
I would take it somewhere where they can plug a laptop with datalogger software into the car. Then take it for a run from cold and graph the coolant temp., air volume, injected fuel volume etc etc as the engine warms up. 'Poke and hope' is not going to work.
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it could momentarily make the revs die due to cold air though and then the op revs it to get it to pick up
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I'm going to book it back into BMW next week and tell them to check all of the things you have kindly suggested.
I have to take it to the main dealer as I still have a BMW warranty and therefore all the work is free......or is it.....
.......when I took this in last time and they said there were no fault codes they threatened to charge me!! I went nuts and explained they couldn't possibly charge me for their failing to fix may car and three managers later I did not receive a bill.
BMW seem to be naive to the fact that they haven't designed their fault analysis system adequatley enough to make mechanics redundant. The BMW guidlines to the franchise is obviously plug the laptop in, check the fault code, look the code up in the book then change the suggested faulty module.
Problem with my car and probably hundreds of other BMW's is that the car/faulty analysis system doesn't realise there is anything wrong therefore isn't returning any codes! In this case the dealership washes the car and gives it back to the unhappy customer with a bill for plugging in the laptop!
I wonder what the fault code for a faulty failure analysis system is?
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BMW seem to be naive to the fact that they haven't designed their fault analysis system adequatley enough to make mechanics redundant. The BMW guidlines to the franchise is obviously plug the laptop in check the fault code look the code up in the book then change the suggested faulty module. Problem with my car and probably hundreds of other BMW's is that the car/faulty analysis system doesn't realise there is anything wrong therefore isn't returning any codes!
The ECU undertakes a 'plausibility analysis' of the data it receives from sensors. i.e. if the Coolant temp sensor has gone open circuit then the equivalent temp might be -200 deg. C. The ECU knows that this is an implausible temperature and therefore can flag a fault and insert a 'limp home' value for the coolant temp.
The snag comes when a sensor gives an incorrect value which is not implausible. Under these circumstances no flag is set and the ECU attempts to operate the engine with incorrect data. A good example would be a MAF sensor going faulty - still returning a plausible airflow reading - but one that is wrong. Its here that the diagnostic skills of the technician come into play. Its also here that its useful for the tech to be able to read live data (or logged data) to identify anomalous data. Unfortunately as far as many service managers are concerned 'no MIL = no fault'.
Incindentally, charging for 'no fault found' work under warranty is not unusual.
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Just a small point Aocal, You may see an esso tanker delivering fuel so you think its Esso but the tankers ditribute different addatives for different supplies so all is not quite what you think. Its complicated but fuel sharing is common but the addatives that make up individual fuel for a supplier is planned. Some cars Do respond differently to different brands of fuel dispite what the sceptics tell you .
Regards Doc
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My step-daughter has the very same problem on her 318 2L. saloon and she also has been using Tesco petrol. Like you the BMW diagnostic said nothing showed as being wrong , so the problem must be mechanical. I've now been told that mechanics are telling owners of engines 1800cc and above to avoid standard supermarket petrol because it affects the fuel injectors. A collegue said she should use Wynn's Injector Cleaner now, and every three months, and that should soon cure the problem as it did for him. And for the sake of less than £10 a bottle it's worth a go!
We'll certainly be trying it.
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My car has been at the dealership since Tuesday (now Thursday), they can't find anything wrong with it.
On Saturday I had the wife and kids in the car, pulled out onto a really busy roundabout and had Zero power, a lorry had to swerve around us as we were stuck there waiting to be battered.
The dealership asked yesterday if they could have it another night to monitor it again from cold this morning but it doesn't sound like they hold much hope of getting to the bottom of it.
Gutted, £20,000+ car and i'm terrified driving it!
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Aocal, has it had the exhaust rear box changed from new yet & if it has is it genuine or after market?. I agree with Aprilla it needs live data read when driving cold & that infornation needs interpreting by a tech! Not just someone waiting for a light to come on. Sounds like its going too weak when cold, could be a progressive fault in coolant sensor or Airflow meter fault, B'ms always had a slight weakness there.
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Hi Injection Doc
Nope, it's the original exhaust, I had the car when it had 17k on the clock, it now has 35k.
BMW have said they drove the car around then brought it back to the garage and plugged it into this analyser machine, obviously by this point it was all warmed up and not faulty anyway.
A few people have suggested the Airflow meter, i'll drum it home to them when I pop in there later.
I'm letting them keep the car for the next week, i'm on hols tomorrow so i've told them they have 7 days to find the fault and fix it.
I've also E-mailed BMW head office saying I want them to buy the car back from me or provide me with a replacement if this isn't fixed. Obviously I will need an independant garage or motoring organisation to agree with me and document that a serious fault exists if it comes to this.
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What they need to do is to look at the live data as the car is warming up, and have a sharp-eyed tech look out for data that doesn't look quite right.
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Thanks for update, lets hope you come back & find it fixed. Remote possibility is that its got a sticky valve or valves & engines loosing a little compression when warming up whilst oil is still thick & cold. If when the idle drops a little low you think it sounds like its on 3 cylinders that is also a remote possibility.
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BMW still can't find the fault, they had it for over a week but couldn't reproduce any problem.
Although the weather has been wet it has been quite warm on the South Coast, temperatures rarely dipping below 19 degrees during the day. This problem is particularly bad when it's below 16 degrees.
I've given up now, told BMW they must buy the car back from me or swap it for an identical car. I've spoken to my solicitor and I have a solid case, this is a serious safety issue and if BMW don't either fix the car or replace it they could be sued on a number of counts. Not to mention that their warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on unless the car produces the illusive fault code.
I have given them the ultimatum so they can do the right thing and swap my car or face the consequences.
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Hardwareman , how did you get on?
>My step-daughter has the very same problem on her 318 2L. saloon and she also has been using Tesco petrol. Like >you the BMW diagnostic said nothing showed as being wrong , so the problem must be mechanical. I've now been told >that mechanics are telling owners of engines 1800cc and above to avoid standard supermarket petrol because it >affects the fuel injectors. A collegue said she should use Wynn's Injector Cleaner now, and every three months, and >that should soon cure the problem as it did for him. And for the sake of less than £10 a bottle it's worth a go!
>We'll certainly be trying it.
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I've only just read this thread.
I know it's not got a carb, but symptons seem very similar to caburettor icing.
Any comments?
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possible disa valve troubles???
i had a 2000yr 318ci and it had symptoms like this..when i replaced the Disa valve it made the car much more perky...the Disa valve sort of extends the inlet manifold( i think)
the disa valve..if fitted on your engine.(im not sure) is a diaphram type contraption...made of rubber internally and can/does wear out
im sure someone else here can elaborate what/if it is the Disa valve
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sometimes a little bit too much opinion....but its only because i care !!!
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ps..disa from bmw was £200 ish...i got a brand new from wrapped in bmw box etc,,from ebay for £10.
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sometimes a little bit too much opinion....but its only because i care !!!
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The DISA valve is a kind of butterfly valve in the inlet manifold. It alters the inlet tract length to improve torque. Below 4000rpm its closed; opens at higher rpm to improve torque. I can't see it being the problem here.
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Yeah, i'm having problems before the engine gets to 1000RPM, let alone the dizzy heights of 4000RPM.
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I really think 'Avoid Supermarket petrol' means avoid sorting out the car! My 'over 1800' BMW ran to 65k miles almost exclusively on supermarket petrol, without the slightest engine problem, or use of injector cleaner. I used it in my Cavalier and Vectra (80k miles) and current Astras whenever I can and have had no problems. These places have 40% of the petrol market and 33% of the diesel market, but don't own a refinery. It comes from the same refineries as every other drop of petrol (and don't forget the major oil companies 'share' refineries, so you're not always buying what you think you are) meets the relevant standards, so why pay more for a 'name'. If it was so bad it would have been obvious by now. BMWs are sold world wide and I'm sure the fuel in some markets is far 'worse' than ours. This is a cop out.
JS
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I wrote earlier about my step-daughter having the same problem. She hasn't tried the Wynns cleaner yet. She had just filled her tank from Tesco and has only just used it up and wants to 'start again' with a different brand of petrol, the Wynns in the tank and a long journey to do it justice. I'll keep you informed.
I note the comments from John S about supermarket petrol. I really would like to believe he is quite right, but the comments I'm hearing make me doubt it. The only time my old Mercedes stopped on the motorway was after filling with Sainsburys' petrol. It was a hot day and the AA man said that lack of additives in that petrol caused it to foam up, or something like that and it happens 'all the time'. I changed the petrol brand and it never happened again. (That was several years ago, it has to be said).
I phoned BMW Customer Service on this problem recently and asked about supermarket petrol. The man didn't wish to be quoted but did say he wouldn't buy the stuff.
Anyway, as yet we don't know for sure what the problem is or what's causing it.
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I always thought the bad comments about supermarket petrol was simply snobbery but now I'm not so sure. Filled up at a supermarket in Liverpool last weekend. All the way up the road the car didn't 'feel' quite the same (had just driven from Cornwall so it was a direct comparison) By Glasgow the car was occasionally mis-firing and I was getting that sinking feeling. Pulled into a brand name petrol station and on finding the car would start after being switched off put £15 worth in. After a few more misfires it then ran nicely again and hasn't coughed since. co-incidence?
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Putting Supermarket petrol to one side for a moment.........
Someone has suggested ( A BMW Mechanic in fact who has seen this before but with a fault code) the fault with my car could be the Cam Sensor. BMW can't/won't replace any parts unless they get a fault code. Does anyone know if there is a lead or connector I can unplug for the Cam Sensor, start the Engine thus producing a fault code and giving them enough reason to change the part??
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If, with the engine running, you disconnect the cam sensor then you'll set a fault and IIRC the car will also stop!
Obviously you'll need to reconnect the sensor and drive the car to the dealer. They will probably read the code, reset it, and wait for it to appear again before they do anything!
I think the supermarket petrol issue is complete red herring. Supermarket petrol meets the appropriate BS and EU standards and is the stuff these engines are designed to run on.
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Aprilia, is it easy to disconnect this sensor? Do you know where it is? What am I looking for?
Thanks,
Aocal
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Working from memory it will be at the top front of the engine - cyl head. IIRC its a Hall Effect sensor and will have three wires, so you're looking for a 3-pin connector. I think some models of around this age actually have two cam sensors, would need engine code to be sure.
To be honest its not a plan I would go with. If the cam sensor is really at fault I would expect running troubles (stopping) and the MIL light to be on.
Best bet is if the dealer can have the car overnight (so its cold) and then monitor live data as it is driven during warm-up. Since the car is out of warranty who is paying for this? If its aftermarket warranty then I imagine that the dealer is reluctant to do many favours.
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Hi Aprilia
The dealer had the car for 8 days a few weeks ago and stated they couldn't do anything until they saw a fault code. It has been there three times in the last 7 months for the same problem. The car does still have the warranty, it was purchased from BMW with the Approved Used Car warranty, it has a warranty until October, hence me wanting to get this part re-placed under that.
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There are lots of faults that don't set a code (incorrect value returned by MAF sensor, CTS etc etc) - they need to monitor data from cold. If they won't do that then I would take it to another dealer.
It likely that under used car warranty they get a lower level of payment and so won't want to commit much time to speculative investigation.
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so what is the point of buying approved used if they can't be bothered,
.....and secondly why make cars so complex without proper fault diagnosis capability, why can they not design some form of device that monitors faults themselves and then reads out...it seem that most car repairs are based on smply installing new parts and hope and poke for the best....or to rely to heavily on the dignostic machine which does not offer full diagnosis capability.....or is not being used properly...
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Tell me about it! I'm a Research & Development Engineer myself and know BMW are not naive to the fact that their Fault Diagnosis system will be full of pitfalls. However, they don't seem to have any other guidelines for their dealerships to follow or allow the dealerships any freedom to assess faults. This is probably why they rank miserably in the JD Power ratings. It's a real shame because i'm sure if my was out of warranty and I took it to my local BMW Specialist to look at he would have freedom to do as he pleased and would probably fix this problem quite quickly.
I formally requested that BMW took the car back off me and gave them the option of refunding me, swapping my car for a like for like replacement. They tried fobbing me off claiming that the dealership I purchased the car from was responsible for handling 'vehicle rejection requests' and BMW rung them and naturally they said they wouldn't take the car back and replace - basically because the car wasn't full of fault codes and the fault wasn't 100% reproducible.
So BMW have basically washed their hands of the warranty obligations claiming it's up to the dealership to honour the warranty! Even though it clearly states in all of the warranty information and on their website that the warranty is backed by BMW and no 3rd party is involved. www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/auc/about/benefits/0,,,00.html
I've got trading standards invloved now as this is a breach of contract. If they can't do anything I will get my solicitor on the case and take them to court. I have aired the fact that I have serious safety issues which could result in my death or serious injury and they are totally disinterested because THERE ARE NO FAULT CODES and the fault won't occur on demand.
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I think Bell Boys post about using someone who understands the engine rather than 1 who can plug a machine in is the key to satisfaction?
How about giving bmw the option of getting it repaired elsewhere and they footing the bill? It may be a way of forcing the issue, their legal defence is likely to hinge around "No fault found so we cant do anything. Until or unless we can identify any fault then we have to believe it is probably a characteristic of the car and/or its driver."
I come under the "poke and hope brigade" refered to earlier, I have various scan tools but never enough for all the cars; so have to use knowledge to identify problems and intermittent ones are always awkward.
Diagnostic machines/tools are good; but only as good as the operator. Knowledge is another thing altogether.
IMO cars have been made too complex (for little benefit) and need to take a step backwards to improve reliabilty/customer confidence.
I think the 1st major manufacturer to market a car on its reliablity/simple diagnostics (if its true of cousre) will score a good following of dis illusioned car owners. People wont keep paying heavily in time and money to keep having the fault there! Or will they?
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The Radio packed up this morning. Stuck on my local radio station, can't adjust the volume, can't turn it off, can't switch to multi-changer. Although I have found that if you press the on/off button repeatedly it will go off eventually.
Talk about a Friday afternoon car! I've decided to sell it and cut my losses, the legal battle will be endless, if I move to sell it now with warranty I should get more money back. Feel a bit guilty selling it with all these problems bu what else can I do?
Anyone want to buy it?
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2 Months later and I have a happy-ish ending to this story! Which will hopefully prove useful if someone else has the same problem and searches the archive.
It was sugegsted in here that the CAM Sensor could be to blame and this was also suggested to me by the BMW mechanic but BMW wouldn't change any parts unless they had a fault code in the computer so I bought an OBD II fault code reader off E-Bay for 30 quid along with the BMW service SW.
I pulled the connector off the CAM sensor and started the engine, to my amazement with the connector hanging off, the engine started and ran exactly the same as it did before! The CAM sensor was doing nothing, but there were no lights on the dash board or anything to suggest to the driver that anything was wrong. The Engine Management system must have been constantly running on a default value but had not put a fault code in the computer.
Anyhow, plugged the sensor back in then plugged in my OBD II fault code reader and finally a fault code had gone into the computer. My car was booked in for a service so I asked them to check for fault codes, obviously they found the CAM sensor fault code and with no quibble changed the part under the warranty.
Got the car back last night and it is now running like brand new! Drove it this morning from cold with an outside ambient of 5 degrees and it was perfect!
Shocking service off BMW that I had to go to such lengths off my own back to get this fixed but I got there in the end. I hope no one else has to go through this polava to get a dangerous fault rectified while their car is under warranty.
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Absolutely disgraceful service, but I'm glad you got a result! Reading this brought back painful memories of trying to get an intermittent stalling / erratic idle problem fixed on a company owned Peugeot 306.
"We plugged it in and the computer says there's no fault with it." Ten times!! It still makes my blood run cold just thinking about it, and I wasn't paying the bills!
A skilled mechanic then had a look at it, and found the problem in less than half an hour. A stepper motor had gunged up. Stripped it, cleaned it, refitted it and the car was good as new.
If this is the standard typical of main dealer mechanics, and the amount of professional pride they have, then main dealer service histories are not worth the paper they're printed on in my opinion.
Good result - shame how you had to get it!
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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Aocal
I think you must have the version with two cam sensors. Must have been mucking up the operation of the VVT.
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Aprilia,
What's a WT?
There were two CAM Sensors I had a 50/50 choice but obviously chose the right one!
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VVT not WT I think . Variable Valve timing.
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Hi, it's me again. So, after a long summer and a bit of winter my step-daughter says that the problem has gone!
She gave the engine a dose of Wynn's petrol addative to clear the tubes and, especially, no longer uses Supermarket petrol.
Has anyone else found that giving up the supermarket petrol has had any effect?
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