Imput from a trucker on another forum; it makes sense:
'It is nearly impossible to explain (unless you have actually done it) how DIFFICULT it is to drive in a gaggle of lorries that have varying power and loads plus limiters that are set slightly differently.
I will attempt an explanation but it will be long and boring(like my overtakes)
You are travelling on undulating terrain in a loaded lorry and overtake an empty lorry whose limiter is set 1 mph slower(because you are 30 mins. from your delivery point and they shut in 35 mins.)
You then hit a small incline and lose 2 mph because the engine hasn't enough power to maintain the limited speed.
The driver of the empty lorry thinks that the incline is long enough for him to overtake, and does so because he is 50 mins. from home and has only 55 mins. driving time left.Unfortunately he has misjudged slightly and is only 80% past near the brow of the hill.
You could ease off to let him past but if you did you would lose 15 mph(genuinely - remember a lorry only has 10-11 bhp per tonne when loaded against maybe 100 bhp/tonne for a car and probably 200 bhp/tonne for a VFR). Instead you maintain your speed,crest the rise and immediately gain 7 mph because gravity is helping you to beat the speed limiter(which only cuts the power at the set speed,but does not operate the brakes).
The empty lorry maintains its speed because it is not heavy enough for gravity to make any difference so your loaded lorry then draws in front and the empty one slots in behind.
This can go on for miles, and neither driver can afford to back off - one because he doesn't want to hack his customer off, the other because he doesn't want to risk a £700 fine (and yes, it often is that much).
The difficulty comes because these factors are changing all the time - the steepness of the incline, the relative weights of the lorries, even the wind strength and direction affects lorries of different heights. Before lorries were limited then the driver could fit his overtakes in so that they caused least inconvenience to the smallest number of people, but now we have had some of that freedom taken away we have no choice but to delay other drivers to be able to fulfil our commitments to customers and the law,and surprisingly enough I have been unable to find any evidence to show that there are less accidents involving lorries since limiters became law.
If any of you have made it this far I hope it goes some way to explaining the problem.'
Puts me in a trucker's driving seat, and I have some sympathy....
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Interesting post mazdaboy and it certainly rings true. I do wonder why lorries overtaking on 3-lane roads creates such a fuss, it doesn't cost much extra time to any of us car drivers that are 'inconvenienced' by it. If lorries overtaking causes stress and anxiety then you probably haven't left enough time for your journey.
As it happens, when in that time pressured situation myself, there are two things that wind me up far more than overtaking lorries - the middle-lane brigade and the 1.0 litre in the fast-lane brigade who are simply unable to keep up when the traffic accelerates, yet are equally incapable of moving over (possibly for fear of getting caught up in the middle-lane brigade).
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Mazdaboy's post make a lot of sense and will perhaps go some way to explaining to people who complain about this just what a difficult 'driving life' truckers have.
As I've said before I have a lot of sympathy for them and always try to do my best to make their lives a little easier.
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Today on a short stretch of 2-lane motorway I witnessed 2 separate occasions of a lorry pulling into the 2nd lane obviously without looking, causing the approaching cars to brake heavily in the pouring rain (thank god for ABS!). The more I drive on motorways the less respect I have for these idiots. They seem to extract particular pleasure from overtaking on an incline, forcing the whole motorway to slow to about 50mph which is all they can manage uphill! GRRRRR!
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Today on a short stretch of 2-lane motorway I witnessed 2 separate occasions of a lorry pulling into the 2nd lane obviously without looking causing the approaching cars to brake heavily in the pouring rain (thank god for ABS!). The more I drive on motorways the less respect I have for these idiots. They seem to extract particular pleasure from overtaking on an incline forcing the whole motorway to slow to about 50mph which is all they can manage uphill! GRRRRR!
As I said on the previous thread about this (not that long ago) what god given right have you to do 70mph?
I drove/drive trucks only very occasionally now, but drive the car far more. In the last 12 years I have spent about 1/3 driving trucks and 2/3's driving cars, not once have I had to brake hard for a truck, why? Because I have enough sense to anticipate.
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>>...not once have I had to brake hard for a truck why? Because I have enoughsense to anticipate.
It's very difficult to anticipate when you're practically level with them, doing a good 10mph more than them, one flash of the indicator and they're changing lanes! As far as I'm concerned, where a motorway only has 2 lanes, all HGVs should be restricted to the left lane. They interrupt the flow of traffic, cause people to slow down, speed back up etc, and show very little consideration for anyone else's safety. I accept I don't have a "right" to do 70mph, but I do have a right to make a journey with no other roaduser compromising my safety just to make up a few minutes of their company's time.
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And you have more right to the road than they do too ?
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Where have I inferred that I think that? I have a right, as does every road-user to make a journey without having my safety compromised. If they insist on pulling out to overtake at inappropriate times on a busy, wet road, they're undermining that right for everyone. Yes, wait for a gap in the traffic, but don't just flash an indicator twice and barge an overtaking car out of your way! It's ironic how professional drivers seem to be amongst the worst.
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Where have I inferred that I think that? I have a right as does every road-user to make a journey without having my safety compromised. If they insist on pulling out to overtake at inappropriate times on a busy wet road they're undermining that right for everyone. Yes wait for a gap in the traffic but don't just flash an indicator twice and barge an overtaking car out of your way! It's ironic how professional drivers seem to be amongst the worst.
Have to agree.The number of accidents and near accidents I have witness from lorrys just pulling out into or in front of other vehicles,seems to be increasing all the time.I my self have twice been nearly forced into the central reservation by lorries moving out first,then indicating.IMHO lorries should be restricted to the inside lane on dual carriageways during the peak periods,especially on the A34.
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It's very difficult to anticipate when you're practically level with them doing a good 10mph more than them one flash of the indicator and they're changing lanes!
The anticipation part begins a long time before you are practically level with them. If the gap between two lorries is either a) very small or b) narrowing rapidly then the likelihood of them needing to pull out is obvious from well before you are in the danger zone. I have not seen many HGVs make a sudden manouevre when a) or b) does not apply.
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The anticipation part begins a long time before you are practically level with them. If the gap between two lorries is either a) very small or b) narrowing rapidly then the likelihood of them needing to pull out is obvious from well before you are in the danger zone. I have not seen many HGVs make a sudden manouevre when a) or b) does not apply.
bms,
you're absolutely right........but........some lorries stick closely to each other anyway, no doubt for slip streaming etc.......and don't necessarily pull out at all.......so although anticipation should kick in for the 'maybe'.......sometimes when they do, the manouver can be a tad 'right here we go', with no real warning, which is a bit naughty.....as there ought to be 'mirror,signal manouever'
p.s not an anti lorry driver post as car drivers are worse for not bothering to warn people of their actions
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>>.....as there ought to be 'mirror signal manouever'
Just to correct you here, LGV drivers are taught to "Mirror, Signal, Mirror, Manouever"
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and in reality its
Mirror, Signal, Mirror, Manouever - even if some poor car driver is going to have to slam on his anchors to give me space to manouevre.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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What you say is true but if the lorry pulls out and causes an accident because you have not anticipated it is still the fault of the lorry and therefore they are doing something wrong.
You shouldnt have to anticipate (but if you do you stay alive)
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You shouldnt have to anticipate (but if you do you stay alive)
Should you have to anticipate when approaching a roundabout, a T-junction, a blind crest, a wobble from a cyclist...??
driving is all about anticipation.
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Aim low, expect nothing & dont be disappointed
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>> You shouldnt have to anticipate (but if you do you stay alive) >> Should you have to anticipate when approaching a roundabout a T-junction a blind crest a wobble from a cyclist...?? driving is all about anticipation.
No, its all about preparedness. Being ready for anything anyone may do. If you anticpate what they are going to do you get in severe agro when they do something different.
As they frequently do.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Did you not read mazdaboys post?
On a 2 lane motorway when one HGV is gaining on another HGV in front I always anticipate that the rearmost HGV will NEED to overtake and I ANTICIPATE - and give way to - the overtaking HGV.......................I lose a few SECONDS - big deal - I'm in a much faster car and can easily make up a few seconds/minutes later on.
I'v never reached the end of a journey - short or long - and have honestly been able to say that I've been late or inconvenienced because of a lorry overtaking in front of me (accidents or congestion -yes ).............you are talking about a few seconds on a hill.
As for pulling out without looking - only twice in as many years as I can remember has a HGV pulled out causing me real concern/danger, generally their observation is quite good (and don't forget the sign on the rear of some HGV's "If YOU can't see my mirrors - I can't see YOU" -- observation cuts two ways and approaching the blind spot of two lorries in convoy in the pouring rain at such a spped as to require heavy braking would suggest to me that your anticpation/observation skills may need some attention
I've had many more near escapes when car drivers have pulled out without checking their mirrors.
Jacks
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I'v never reached the end of a journey - short or long - and have honestly been able to say that I've been late or inconvenienced because of a lorry overtaking in front of me (accidents or congestion -yes )
What do you think causes congestion on a motorway or dual carriageway? Zebra crossings?
Much more likely to be caused by vehicles travelling relatively slowly in lane 2, others having to brake and it rippling back. Wouldn't that be down to overtaking lorries some of the time?
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Puts me in a trucker's driving seat and I have some sympathy....
If true (and I have no reason to disbelieve it), then the management of these companies need to be SERIOUSLY taken to task for such blatent lack of reason when setting timescales.
The whole system of "time=money" inherent in all the very worst managers in this country (and I have been on the receiving end myself) is sickening. But then this is what happens when union power is reduced to the point where the worker has no say in the matter whatsoever.
If the comments are typical of the reasons truckers do what they do, then these scumbag managers need sueing every time there is a collision resulting from bad lorry driving.
Another side to this (and one that I guess will affect the south of the country more than the north) is that, in France, lorries are only allowed to operate on many roads between 7pm and 7am. One has to wonder how many truckers are nipping across the chunnel to do a bit of moonlighting to make extra cash -- further raising the "incentive" to drive badly to make deadlines of their own making.
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I just hope that everyone who has complained in the past about truckers overtaking reads mazdaboy's post. Everything he said echoes what I have been told by countless truckers in the last 20 years or so. I've only driven trucks on track days but these experiences gave me a good idea of what it's like. They have my sympathy.
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L\'escargot.
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"This can go on for miles, and neither driver can afford to back off - one because he doesn't want to hack his customer off, the other because he doesn't want to risk a £700 fine (and yes, it often is that much)."
As a frequent moaner myself, this says it all to me. And I DO have sympathy with the drivers, but none for the management that impose such idiotic rules and "fines". If the customer has to wait, then he has to wait! Anyone who drives anywhere in Britain knows what it's like, you can't go for more than half an hour without meeting some barrier to progress, largely unnecessary but that's another post!
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Anyone who drives anywhere in Britain knows what it's like you can't go for more than half an hour without meeting some barrier to progress .......
Come to Lincolnshire and experience driving paradise. On Sunday evening I frequently drive for 30 miles and hardly see another motorist. You get the occasional bunch of mad bikers (who, I hasten to add, don't bother me at all) who come here just for the fun of our roads, but at least they never hold you up.
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L\'escargot.
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Sounds like heaven! I had a good hard drive through Rutland a couple of years ago, fantastic. I am thinking I probably went through Lincolnshire at some point too.... but not knowingly. I met a model from Lincolnshire once who could fire breathe, what more could you ask from a woman?!
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I met a model from Lincolnshire once who could fire breathe ........
Sounds like she was really hot! ;-)
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L\'escargot.
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: ) Oh yes.....
Thank heaven for motor shows, I say...
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"This can go on for miles and neither driver can afford to back off - one because he doesn't want to hack his customer off the other because he doesn't want to risk a £700 fine (and yes it often is that much)."
>>... but none for the management that impose such idiotic rules and"fines".
The fines are imposed by the law for breaking hours regulations, not by managers of companies.
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Aim low, expect nothing & dont be disappointed
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C,mon folks, give the lorries a break, they need a bit of room and time to slow down and speed up and god knows how much fuel they eat up through needless speed changes caused by inconsiderate car drivers. How many drivers actually speed up to get on to a roundabout before the lorry does forcing it stop and restart.
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Personally I don't blame the lorry drivers.
Which country has the most congested roads in Europe?
Which country's government stopped all new road programs when it came ino power? (Not that they alone are solely responsible.. far from it)
When you got too much traffic and the alternatives to road for freight - rail- are not realistic , then problems from lorries are inevitable.
madf
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i don't wear the limiter excuse......yes the limiter causes problems and i'm not in favour of the things....but they're there
on the odd occasions i've driven long distances with a heavy trailer, you adjust your driving to what you've got........if you can't get past or will end up doing overtaking ping pong, then throttle off a bit and accept it....
not carry on regardless and have a 3 mile rolling road block..it's selfish
i can fully understand the want to be at the journey's end and beat the hours regs, but there must be plenty of times that kicks in (i.e they don't make it in time) and it's part of the job
be a bit more professional about it
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Whenever i ever use the A34 between the M4 & the A303 on occasions, i always become stuck behind an artic overtaking another arctic.
Due to the fact it's a duel carriage opposed to being a three laned carriageway & there's loads of hilly sections too.
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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Many thanks for all responses. Mazdaboy, I take your point but methinks you exaggerate, especially mentioning a sudden speed change of 15 mph.
A mere 3mph will see you walk past an artic in less than 15secs.
The hills scenario you mention is understandable to a certain extent - which is why they have at last introduced no-overtaking on the more undulating bits of the A14 as per Germany.
Tractor units are pretty powerful these days - if they cannot cope I would suspect overloading. Random checks suggest this is widespread. I think any lorry unable to maintain speed up a modern motorway hill should be ordered into a layby at the top and weighed.
Lincolnshire may be bliss, M. L'escargot, but the A1 is pretty flat here and this is where it took place.
We all have rights and responsibilities - the raison d'etre of dual carriageways is to enable the maximum amount of traffic possible to get from a-b as quickly as legally possible.
If you want to see what chaos can be caused by lorries, go to Google earth and zoom in on the east-bound A14 just west of Thrapston, Northamtonshire [post code NN15 will take you somewhere near].....one-line answers as to why two artics are in such close proximity, please!
Finally, after how many halfmiles does narrow-mindedness become the offence of wilful obstruction of the Queen's highway?
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If you want to see what chaos can be caused by lorries go to Google earth and zoom in on the east-bound A14 just west of Thrapston Northamtonshire [post code NN15 will take you somewhere near].....one-line answers as to why two artics are in such close proximity please! Finally after how many halfmiles does narrow-mindedness become the offence of wilful obstruction of the Queen's highway?
If you follow the A14 to the junction of the A6116 I think you'll find the reason is there's a police car ordering all traffic off the eastbound A14...
Elephant racing (as someone mentioned on here in a different thread) does cause congestion to quickly build. It's not responsible in the above example though.
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Tractor units are pretty powerful these days - if they cannot cope I would suspect overloading. Random checks suggest this is widespread. I think any lorry unable to maintain speed up a modern motorway hill should be ordered into a layby at the top and weighed.
This really does show just how ignorant of the subject you are. There are no such things as "Random" checks, they always target set groups - sometimes foreign trucks, sometimes older trucks etc. Hence why the figures always look appalling - "out of 50 stopped 50% were defective" etc, etc, etc - if they took a truly random sample then I can assure you that the figure would be much lower. Both the Police and VOSA know how to spot an overloaded truck, and that is not by it going slowly up hills.
Even at 500hp and running at 44t you can still end up slowing on hills - that's what happens.
It is not in an operators interest to run overloaded or with defective vehicles - the laws are much more stringent for O-Licence holders then for the average motorist. Do you get hauled in for a public inquiry before the Traffic Commissioner if you car does not pass it's MOT on the first attempt? O-Licence holders can.
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because you are 30 mins. from your delivery point and they shut in 35 mins.
he is 50 mins. from home and has only 55 mins. driving time left
If anyone can plan a journey of 50 minutes and get it accurate to within 5 minutes (in the daytime) then they're either fibbing or don't have to deal with red traffic lights, other traffic, busy junctions etc.
Does this mean that they're allowed to go through red lights if they're short of time?
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It's not really just the lorries, though, is it?
Picture the maroon coloured Fiesta in the nearside lane being driven by some bloke who looks like he still lives at home with his mother.
Just such a character pootled along at maybe 55 - 60mph on the M6, causing real grief to all the lorries that invariably had to overtake.
Unless there are exceptional circumstances, cars should at least maintain the speeds of a lorry when in 'that' lane.
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Imagine this Fiesta is doing 35-40mph on the section of the A42 where vehicles over 7.5 tonnes are not permitted to overtake.
I've experienced it and I gladly let the coach driver pull out in front of me to get past the loon - if the coach driver had been pulled for breaking the no overtaking law I would have gladly been a defence witness for him.
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Today I had the pleasure of driving on the A14 where they have BANNED lorries from overtaking.
Between Junct 1 and Junc 2 there is a journey time trial taking place where lorrier over 7.5T are banned from lane 2 between 06:00 and 22:00.
Its bliss. The outside lane is clean clear andfast flowing. the lorries all trundle along at 55mph ave. Perfect.
Dont give me this old argie bargie about how hard it is to all keep momentum in a lorry convoy restricted to one lane. Its pink fluffy dice.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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>>>>However I guarantee you'd find it even more annoying if one did it at the last minute without indicating while you are doing in excess of 140mph- as happened to me last Friday.
You can't expect lorries to anticipate someone approaching at that ridiculous speed. Unless you are a Police officer and you had your lights/sirens on.
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You can't expect lorries to anticipate someone approaching at that ridiculous speed. Unless you are a Police officer and you had your lights/sirens on.
I can expect them to and I do, as do others. Speeds of 140mph are quite normal on some of the roads I use and if you have your headlights on and there is no reason for a truck to pull out without indicating ie not an emergency then they shouldn't.
140mph isn't a 'ridiculous speed' either, it's just another number.
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>>>I can expect them to and I do, as do others. Speeds of 140mph are quite normal on some of the roads I use and if you have your headlights on and there is no reason for a truck to pull out without indicating ie not an emergency then they shouldn't.
>>>140mph isn't a 'ridiculous speed' either, it's just another number.
Maybe you live in Germany?
Assuming the roads you quote are in the UK, I strongly disagree with you and hope that you never drive anywhere near me and my family at those speeds. Putting on your headlights does not give you a licence to drive at 140mph which IS a ridiculous speed.
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All speed is relative to what is going on around you. 140mph on a quiet motorway probably not so ridiculous if its permitted.
140 on a motorway when there are wagons doing 50-60 who may want to overtake other wagons suggests 140 is ridiculous in this situation (especially when you balme them for pulling out in front of you).
Your approach speed on the wagon is about 100 mph - 150 ft per second - would you attempt to cross a road knowing there were cars apporaching at 100 mph, even if they did have headlights on?
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I don't live in Germany but I often drive there and I don't believe that any speed is 'ridiculous' as long as you drive according to the conditions whichever country you are in.
You might have a point though in saying that lorry drivers in the UK aren't acclimatised to a driving environment where people drive at high speeds.
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>>>I don't live in Germany but I often drive there and I don't believe that any speed is 'ridiculous' as long as you drive according to the conditions whichever country you are in.
You are being deliberately vague as to whether the example you gave of doing 140mph was in this country or not. If it was in this country, the previous poster put it very well - if lorries are on the road, the conditions weren't appropriate.
>>>You might have a point though in saying that lorry drivers in the UK aren't acclimatised to a driving environment where people drive at high speeds.
Correct. And neither am I acclimatised to people driving at double the speed limit. And neither should I be.
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I don't live in Germany but I often drive there and I don't believe that any speed is 'ridiculous' as long as you drive according to the conditions whichever country you are in.
I don't want to get into the argument about whether 140mph is justified on British roads, but I must say I find the hypocrisy amusing if any of you can not honestly say that you do not speed at all.
All speeding is illegal. The relative amount of speeding doesn't really come into it, on the motorways at least. If the 90mph driver sees fit to criticise the 140mph driver, someone is missing the point.
I would agree though that a lorry driver would never pull out at all if he thought there were 140mph drivers around everywhere. You could be a mile down the road and still have to slam on the anchors.
If you're prepared to do that, that's fine, but it may not actually be the lorry driver's fault in a lot of cases.
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if you have your headlights on and there is no reason for a truck to pull out
They're headights, not a forcefield. You're assuming someone is looking for a vehicle - much more likely they had a quick look 5 seconds earlier and didn't see anything, so pull out.
Hard enough dealing with that at 70 sometimes, best of luck at 140.
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>>>All speeding is illegal. The relative amount of speeding doesn't really come into it, on the motorways at least. If the 90mph driver sees fit to criticise the 140mph driver, someone is missing the point.
My citicism is nothing to do with the law, it safety. The difference between 90mph and 140mph is considerable in terms of stopping when an overtaking lorry pulls out in front of you.
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Surely people who do 140 on motorways don't just blind past slower traffic, but back off to a more cautious 110 or so.
And cars capable of quickly reaching that sort of speed are probably capable of losing 70mph in a couple of seconds.
Driver has to have the correct attitude of course.
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the general awareness of drivers in this country is appalling....and getting worse
i'm not that old (or at least don't think i am), but even through the 27 years i've been on the road, i've noticed it getting worse
i think that the mentality of ever decreasing limits is actually worse for driver awareness, because the 'average joe' doesn't have to think as much
if the state increasingly lowers limits for alleged safety reasons.......and people generally drive more slowly, then they'll be more bored, less aware and more prone to thinking 'i'm alright jack, i'm driving to the limit'.
I'd rather they actually 'think' about what they are doing and maybe even take an interest in it, they'll make a far better job of it
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another thing........
when i drive on the continent.....normally France, occasionally Spain, odd occasion other places... there is far better mirror work on a motorway before pulling out into another lane
in the UK, it's my belief that it's now considered a 'right' to pull out when you need to and the car in the outside lane needs to give way to you, not the other way around as it should be.
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in the UK it's my belief that it's now considered a 'right' to pull out when you need to and the car in the outside lane needs to give way to you not the other way around as it should be.
I read somewhere that, on a crowded motorway, if a car moves into the outside lane and causes a car already in that lane to brake it may result in the traffic a long way behind actually coming to a standstill and the traffic jam can take a number of hours to clear.
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L\'escargot.
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when i drive on the continent.....normally France occasionally Spain odd occasion other places... there is far better mirror work on a motorway before pulling out into another lane
I'd agree with that. The only people who ever seem to pull out in front of me without looking on Continental motorways are driving cars with British numberplates.
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i think that the mentality of ever decreasing limits is actually worse for driver awareness because the 'average joe' doesn't have to think as much
At the times I've driven slowly on the motorway I've found that I have to think more to be honest. You have to be absolutely sure that you're not holding others up -- I won't do it, I'd rather sit behind a lorry doing 55 for 2 minutes than force a convoy of traffic to slow down for me. I'll be sat in third for the last 10-20 seconds of it waiting for my opportunity.
Sadly too many drivers don't share my concern for other road users. The last thing I want is a BMW up my pink fluffy dice when I'm driving something small anyway!
Drive at 80-85 and you find that you're driving at or above the same speed as everyone else, and it hence becomes much easier to weave in and out of traffic safely.
The other folks that annoy me are those who are on the outside lane and brake to allow lorries to overtake, knowing damn well that they're forcing others behind to brake hard by doing it too late. I try to help out lorry drivers where I can, but there are other road users to think about as well, and people should bear that in mind before deciding to be "helpful".
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people who do 140 on motorways don't...........backoff to a cautious 110 or so.
cars capable of quickly reaching that sort of speed.....capable of losing
70mph in a couple of seconds.
Driver has to have the correct attitude of course.
My experience more or less other than the fact 140 is probably what I've got down to from top ending the car on a quiet road.
Some of the attitudes of the people on here say to me they have no experience of a driving environment where there are no limits and I might suggest they probably aren't cut out for one. Thankfully they have the 70mph limit in the UK to protect them.
I might not have made it clear enough but there is of course no way I'd drive above the speed limit in the UK. I'm not joking either- I generally pootle along at 65 on the motorway. Makes a refreshing change and from what I can see I tend to get there just as quick as the people breaking the limits who seem to spend most of their time either accelerating or braking.............
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