The sort of lethal driving described in this revived thread is so widespread now that it is very hard work even in a quite capable car to make proper progress on SE two-lane blacktop when there's a lot of traffic.
It isn't always consciously intended even. Just that it takes a hypnotised cud-chewer in a dawdling, tailgating queue what seems like an age to spot the overtaker and the vehicle batting towards him in the other carriageway, back off and allow the overtaker in.
When you're young and gung-ho you come at them from the side, signalling, and force your way back in. The carphounds care more about their silly cosmetic bumpers and so on than they do about your life, or making progress, or not making everyone's life a misery on the roads. But I'm not young any more and I wouldn't do it now unless pressed.
'Driving to the conditions' now involves a fair amount of enforced mimsing, and I mean mimsing, not driving at or even anywhere near the limit. It makes me unhappy but there's damn all to be done about it. The so-and-sos are wall to wall.
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I'd say that as a percentage of all cars on the road there are no more mimsers than there were 20/30/40 years ago... just that they are more noticable because there are more speed limits, more double white lines, etc. than there was in the 60s and 70s...
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As a percentage, b308, perhaps not, but of course overall volumes are much greater, and mimsers are far more obstructive in thick traffic than they are in thin.
I'm not sure you really have it right though. There were always mimsers and slow cars, but the heart seems to have gone out of people somehow. One genuine mimser shouldn't gather a close train of fifteen or more cars. The first car to catch it should either overtake when the opportunity arises, or damn well leave a decent gap and not tailgate. The same applies to all subsequent arrivals in the queue. If people are content to do 40 on a 60 mph A road, why aren't they content to leave a decent safe gap for those who are less patient?
Because they are hardly real people, let alone real drivers, that's why. Neurotic, infantilised, confused, narcissistic adolescents stuffed with inflated pretension and silly resentment, who shouldn't be entrusted with a pram let alone a car. Or so they sometimes seem...
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but the heart seems to have gone out of people somehow. One genuine mimser shouldn't gather a close train of fifteen or more cars. The first car to catch it should either overtake when the opportunity arises or damn well leave a decent >>gap and not tailgate. The same applies to all subsequent arrivals in the queue. If >>people are content to do 40 on a 60 mph A road why aren't they content to leave a decent safe gap for those who are less patient?
it's definitely getting worse...in England any way. Scotland seems o.k.....can't speak for Wales. My home county (Devon) shames me, it's fast becoming Mimserville.
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...t's definitely getting worse...in England any way. Scotland seems o.k.....can't speak for Wales. My home county (Devon) shames me, it's fast becoming Mimserville....
I dunno, all these people driving at a speed of their own choosing and within the speed limit.
Shocking, lock 'em up I say.
They should drive at a speed determined by the mood of whoever is following.
People today just won't do as they are told.
This country's never been the same since the decline of cheap domestic labour between the two world wars.
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People have a perfect right to cluster dangerously together on the road for psychic warmth, ifithelps, and unfortunately there are no laws in place to lock them up for it.
But they shouldn't do it; they wouldn't do it if they educated themselves a bit in what they spend such a lot of time doing; and it seems wrong-headed if not perverse of you to encourage the bleating brutes.
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I don't see why the faster driver is automatically seen as in the right and the slower driver is in the wrong.
To me, they are equal.
The slower driver cannot reasonably complain if the faster driver hares off over the horizon, but equally, the faster driver cannot reasonably complain of being impeded if he finds himself behind the slower driver.
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If only there were just the two of them there would be no problem ifithelps. What is being discussed here is an area where collective or group behaviour assumes a certain importance.
What we have been discussing at length is behaviour in groups or clusters, not just someone going fast and someone else going slow, and whether they are equal or any faff of that sort.
Edited by Lud on 10/09/2009 at 20:30
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....behaviour in groups or clusters....
So in a moving queue of a dozen cars are drivers all acting in concert?
Piffle.
A slower car will gather a queue behind if there's enough traffic about, but none are behaving in a group or cluster.
And GB's assumption (post below) that none have the nous or ability to plan an overtake is ignorant and arrogant in equal measure.
There could be any number of reasons why a driver in the queue doesn't want to overtake.
He might be due to turn off, for example, or he might be early, or he might be on a load of points and afraid of exceeding the limit, even for a short while, or his car might be acting up and he's not confident to overtake with it, or etc, etc.
Edited by ifithelps on 10/09/2009 at 21:13
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There could be any number of reasons why a driver in the queue doesn't want to overtake.
And i have no problem with that at all IIH, so long as the driver unable or unwilling or just not bothered to overtake travels at a reasonable distance behind their leader and doesn't try to kill the one who can overtake by blocking them out should they need to overtake in a series of shorter bursts.
This thread is titled along the lines of preventing others from overtaking and those are the ones who should be hounded by every independent minded motorist (fewer by the year in stalin's surveillance state)....the wannabe traffic enforcement...those who wish to dictate their view of what is safe and acceptable to everyone else, and by force if necessary.
Did someone upset you today by the way, the verbal attack seems a little out of character...;)
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...Did someone upset you today by the way, the verbal attack seems a little out of character...;)
GB,
On reflection, that post did come out a bit on the tetchy side - no offence intended, of course.
I certainly wouldn't support any driver who seeks to prevent an overtake, or who deliberately obstructs another's progress in any way.
In the circumstances described, I find I am increasingly content to trundle along with all the rest.
If it's just me trundling along, then I will often slow a bit more to allow an overtake, partly because I'm a nice chap, but mostly because I don't want an impatient driver behind me.
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in concert?
Piffle.
I've tried to explain it to you ifithelps. But I think it's a bit difficult for you.
Don't worry about it. I'm sure your own driving is impeccable.
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I don't see why the faster driver is automatically seen as in the right and the slower driver is in the wrong. To me they are equal.
Quite agree...however, how often does the slower driver 'dictate' the speed the faster driver can drive by being ignorant...e.g. hogging the crown of the road, failing to leave a decent gap to the vehicle in front, trying to close a gap intentionally, etc.
How often nowadays do slower drivers actively assist a faster driver to get past, e.g. show a left hand indicator when the road is clear ahead.
There was a thread a while back where someone posted they don't bother putting main beam on at night, because they don't want to drive fast...sums it up really...'i'm alright jack'.
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...failing to leave a decent gap to the vehicle in front...
One thing I am quite good at is leaving a decent gap.
As I've remarked before, I haven't got the skill or concentration to tailgate effectively.
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It can be fun catching the mimse out, i don't mean the one causing the queue, they are usually doing their bit for their misguided idea of safety by regulating all those behind.
The obstinate mimse i mean...the one following the lead car, often the herd instinct brings several of them together nose to tail, not one of them with the nous or ability to plan and execute an overtake, but all hell bent on preventing anyone else from doing so.
The overtake must be meticulously planned, you must approach them in stealthy manner keeping a fair distance back most definately not getting towards the crown of the road as that will give the game away, extreme cunning is the most satisfying way to beat these monsters.
You should travel nonchalantly taking advantage of left hand bends by checking up the inside of the 'train' for enough of a clear spell.....then when you have the available slot you accelerate hell for leather but don't pull out until needed and go past the lot...the resultant unexpected blitzing if executed properly should cause mayhem in the train, flashing lights, hooters blasted, feeble attempts to speed up to close the already minute gap...all to no avail as you already had planned blitzing the lot anyway....oh the pleasure that brings knowing the seething hatred for yourself as you disappear into the distance..;)
All this is best achieved in a vehicle that arouses no suspicion of course, larger engined (preferably unbadged) models of normally mimse driven cars are best for this imo.
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GB. That's the ethos of advanced driving. Looking well ahead, assessing all the dangers and going for the extended overtake. By good planning and observations it is possible to execute the perfect overtake in what, to the average mimser, looks like a suicide manouvre. Particularly if you can include what appears to be a zone of invisibility. Extremely satisfying :-)
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But (GB and Fullchat) there's sometimes someone among the mimsers who's got up the courage to overtake and comes out in front of you without looking in their mirror as you are blasting past. I hit another car, gently, under those circumstances once while looking at my own tyre smoke in my mirror and running two wheels onto the verge on the other side of the road, keeping my foot in it immediately afterwards because of the car coming over the horizon at me. That was in a Dyane by the way - not an ideal car for blasting past mimsers, although fine if no one baulks you.
There are more and more drivers like that around. Not mimsers exactly, but anxious and not really competent. That's why I hesitate these days to do the slingshot multi-overtake at the right speed (as fast as possible) and hang back on the wrong side of the road just in case. Tiresome, but necessary.
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comes out in front of you without looking in their mirror asyou are blasting past.
Thats always a problem, and one should keep their third eye scanning the cars at 10o'clock for a possible.
Respect Lud...not only overtaking a pack with the Dyane, but getting it going quick enough for a tyre smoker.
Long time since i've seen a Dyane or Ami being put through its paces, leaning at perilous angles but sticking like glue to the road, sometimes see a white van man doing similar with a berlingo near here, how the tyres stay on the rims amazes me.;)
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overtaking a pack with the Dyane
Thanks gb. It was in the early seventies. Less traffic then, but I doubt if I'd try it now even under identical circumstances in the same place. Of course the thing with 2CV variants, and even the much pokier Skoda Estelles, was maintaining momentum. My tooth-gnashing hatred of mirror-blind mimsing baulkers and the sort of carphounds who get in the way on purpose dates from driving those cars.
A bit after that I did two intensive three-month stints as a south London minicabber. Learnt a lot then about making progress without going too fast. Of course you lose the urban-barracuda lightning opportunism when you don't use it all the time, but you remember the cunning and caution and mistrust of other cars after reading their body language and better-safe-than-sorry malarkey. It makes you a tiny weeny bit slower, but about a hundred times more relaxed and quite a bit safer, although all that is always in the lap of the gods. Better for everyone.
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it's definitely getting worse...in England any way. Scotland seems o.k.....can't speak for Wales.
Down here in rural Pembrokeshire it is not uncommon to come up behind someone varying between 25-30mph on a single carriageway NSL, and that isn't exaggerating either.
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Interesting thread. Interesting for the various points of view.....However, I really do find it amazing the numbers who feel that OP was wrong/"car 4" was correct and/or it is dangerous to overtake more than one vehicle at a time. Really is hard to understand.
I too often drive the road that WestPig mentions and, if one were to "sit in the queue in lemming like assumed security" it would take an age to get to ones destination (Isle of Skye in my case). There are many roads in the Highlands (and Islands) where it is perfectly safe to zip-past a queue. Even the "infamous" Lomond Side offers a number of opportunities! Most motorists, especially PSV and HGV drivers, help those of us who wish to make swifter progress and, in the main, it works.
There are areas where non-locals read the roadsigns incorrectly and all trundle at 40mph when, if they read the signs correctly, the 40mph is for 7.5t+ vehicles. These are roads where passing a number of vehicles in one go is often *required*.
Happy travels one and all.
Z
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There's an easy way to get all that overtaking room you want Lud, just double the price of fuel... it was noticably easier driving when it was over 1.20 a litre!
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By good planning and observations it is possible to execute the perfect overtake in what, to the average mimser, looks like a suicide manouvre.
I remember doing a BikeSafe half day a couple of years ago with a following cop biker.
At one point the road was perfect for a long view if you were positioned in just the right place and I got past, I think 6 cars and the van they were all shadowing. At the end I wasn't sure what to expect - "1's OK, 2's not bad, 3's good, 4 or more is excellent.
Slightly odd doing it with plod following closely though ;)
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Can I add a note of caution to this how many cars people can overtake in one go competition?
Recently I've seen at least two incidents where drivers thought cars in front of them were mimsing only to find out when doing their "slingshot" that the car just behind the leader (or one or two back) was actually turning right and that was why they didn't overtake... its lead to some rather spectacular smoke screens! By all means try these moves if you wish, but be extra aware of the right hand indicators of ALL those cars in front of you!!
TBH if I'm going to do that sort of overtake I tend to switch on my headlights and may even sound my horn (to warn them of my presence) when overtaking...
Edited by b308 on 10/09/2009 at 22:39
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The post from the Highway Code was right. There's nothing wrong with overtaking, in fact it's encouraged. I've done two advanced driving tests and I would have failed if I hadn't (safely) overtaken in the circumstances described. If I'd have driven at 35mph in a 60mph limit I'd have failed too.
The whole point of driving is to get from A to B.
On the other hand, when you overtake you must understand that your head is on the chopping block, and if anything goes wrong it's probably you that will be blamed.
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I dont think the OP has done anything wrong here ,unlike the idiot who blocked him,i drive a lot of country roads in my job getting from call to call and sometimes overtaking is a must due
to all the ditherers who simply will not overtake the slowest of vehicles thus holding everyone
else up,i have had this done to me before and it is usually some clown in a 10 year old fiesta
on his way to pick up his weed,pathetic petty jealousy....English disease.
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I have just read the whole of this thread and am definitely in the Leif, Lud, GB, Westpig and Fullchat camp.
My name is Old Crocks and I like overtaking.......but unfortunately I now do most of my driving in the London suburbs and get very few opportunities.
Several months ago, when returning from a weekend at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, I found myself on the A29 behind a horsebox and two cars following but not using any of the all too infrequent overtaking opportunities.
Finally the chance presented itself. Straight downhill road, no turnings. Accelerate in the sensibly sized gap I had left, out and past all three before they knew what had happened. All very satisfying and with only 115 bhp.
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Straight downhill road, no turnings. Accelerate in the sensibly sized gap I had left, out and >> past all three before they knew what had happened.
Heh heh oc... I use that road a lot and would be willing to bet that you were about two miles south of Ockley when you did that, just before a long sweeping 100mph right-hand bend with a junction on the left at the beginning of it. Done it myself a few times...
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Yes Lud, I think you are right. It's not a usual route for me so I had little local knowledge to work with but it was oh so satisfying.
I was thinking of you at the time but no PT Cruisers about!
Edited by old crocks on 12/09/2009 at 01:30
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switch on my headlights and may even sound my horn (to warn them of my presence) when overtaking...
Yes b308. Sound policy, and I do it myself sometimes.
Of course there's always the chance the Double Take Brothers will poo their trousers or get indignant because they think you have hooted at them and are Toad.
Pathetic ignorant carphounds.
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I once knew a driver who had a penchant for deliberately putting other drivers in the wrong. His favourite trick was if an oncoming car was squeezing past a parked car or something, just over the white line, he'd deliberately move over to the RIGHT so as to miss the oncoming car by a few cm. He was a somewhat bad-tempered man and it was not fun riding in a vehicle with him. He particularly singled out women drivers for this treatment.
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Leif - I've read some of this and scanned most of it. From your description I think your overtake is sound and nothing in the highway code suggests you shouldn't do so. Some of my colleagues obviously support this view but haven't mentioned the continual need when pressing on for overlapping or dual planning. If I'm overtaking more than one vehicle I always have the secondary plan to drop back in and look to ensure that option exists by the vehicle spacings - if something changes such that I can't take the lot then I'll take the gap. If that gap doesn't exist in the first place then the whole manoeuvre has a different magnitude in the first place. I'd be looking for absolute certainty and take account of the accelerating driver before I committed, if there wasn't a gap to utilise if needed. I think B roads offer few opportunities for 3/4 car overtakes for exactly the reasons you have described. But I wholeheartedly support the fact that if others want to mimse then feel free to overtake. If they don't like the wake up call and lack the maturity to deal with it - tough, take some lessons or wake up.
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Leif - I've read some of this and scanned most of it. From your description I think your overtake is sound ... >>
;-) Woodster - why did it take you over two years to reply to Leif? ;-)
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I can't speak for Woodster, of course - but possibly because another newbie has resurrected an old thread.
This practice has made me do a double take more than once.
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For me, the principle is that it's the second person that makes the queue, not the first.
Drivers can drive at whatever speed they choose. But actively impeding someone else's overtake (or any manoeuver, for that matter) is dangerous and illegal.
I drive quickly and overtake a lot. But I also watch my mirrors and leave several car lengths in front of me in case someone is going quicker than me. If someone's in a rush, let 'em go.
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It took me half my lunch break to find this - which is kinda sad... but I do remember seeing someone on here a while ago trying to justify their actions...
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?m=797206...e
{chosen a more polite word}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 11/09/2009 at 14:51
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Another reason for not speeding up to prevent a car from overtaking is that should the overtaker have a crash with an on-coming vehicle, you too are going to end up as a dustpan and brush job because you'll have been too close to stop in time.
The same people who speed up are in the same class of people who try to stop you merging from a slip road on a crawling motorway because they think you're taking 'their' road. Also in the same group are people who constantly change lanes when a motorway is going nowhere fast in a vague attempt to get a few metres ahead of everyone else thereby causing unneccesary braking and frustration of the cars behind.
But that's for another thread I'm sure.
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switch on my headlights ... (to warn them of my presence) when overtaking...
Yes b308. Sound policy, and I do it myself sometimes
Seconded, especially on those three- or four-car-wide single carriageways where it's possible to thunder straight down the middle from one roundabout to the next (A507 for the first 8 miles west of the A1(M) springs to mind) overtaking a procession of cars travelling at an indicated 59mph (nearer to a true 54mph) because of the forest of NSL repeater signs with a camera symbol attached.
1 is OK, 2 is good...
In the early 90's I managed a 10-car overtake on the old A16 somewhere out Lincolnshire way - including ducking back in between nos. 8 and 9 to miss a surprise mimser pulling out of a garage on the offside. The cars I was overtaking were well spaced and I didn't have to reduce my speed during that manoeuvre - even though I must have been going at about 40mph more than the stream of overtakees.
1,000-yard overtakes, those were the days...
Dave TD
Edited by Dave_TD {P} on 12/09/2009 at 01:00
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In the early 90's I managed a 10-car overtake on the old A16 somewhere out Lincolnshire way -
Only now and again have i witnessed the fluid overtake you describe Dave, usually from the lofty height of the truck.
It gives true pleasure to see the easy expert timing and calm calculation that goes with a safe quick overtake, especially the ones like your memorable feat...the multi car nip in and then out with scarcely a touch on the brakes...performed fast but not too fast that heavy braking is needed to slot in....helps when the brain dead types arn't about that try to prevent you though.
As an aside someone was coming down a Lincs road this week at a limited 53mph (true reading by gps), and about 500 yards ahead of him was one of those fast tractor things, the truck driver involved (ahem) thinking he would have to plan an overtake was mildly amused to find that said tractor pulled steadily away from him and disappeared from view...impressive..;)
Edited by gordonbennet on 12/09/2009 at 09:34
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WOW, I never thought that posting a new message in an old forum would produce so many new posts.
I was just so annoyed that I keep getting held up and was looking for clarification of overtaking law on an A road a few cars behind a lorry.
I always felt vaguely like the bad guy but its gratifying to see that I'm not. Quite a boost actually.
I guess I love the overtaking well the open road ahead and actually able to drive at my speed, usually just below the regulation ( lorries always seem to be 10 mph slower).
The best is when there is a super sports car that is stuck trundling along with the rest and then I zip by overtaking in my Aygo :). That soon wakes them up.
Just to complete this thread there are more and more lorry drivers, artics and trucks that sit on the back door of a leading lorry and get 'annoyed' at you over taking. This seems to be getting worse over the last five years on the roads I travel. I have been overtaking for 22 years and have seen an increase in lorry lorry queue on A roads.
Another pointer when over taking is get all the way over to the right and put as much space between you and the ones you are overtaking, but you all already know that.
Again I don't know about the rest of you but there is a constant internal dialog checking all possibilities, dangers, escape routes. So much so that if I'm listening to the radio it goes unheeded and I pick it up again on the road ahead.
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