Asked this question of Bromptonette's welsh speaking boyfriend after finding Ngymru(h) in some stuff I'd had translated for work.
Peculiarity of a language that is primarily oral, spelling depends on context and the words preceding/following.
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Mrs PU (now I've been forced to stop calling her SWMBO a a consequence to another thread) who is now studying an A level Welsh course tells me (I don't begin to understand - but I do know a BMW 535d is a "Ffast iawn") that Welsh like other Celtic languages mutates certain words in certain circumstances for instance when they start with a consonant so (and I'm quoting her) "Croeso i Gymru" is what is said and seen on signs rather than "Croeso i Cymru" which would sound totally wrong to a Welsh speaker. And apparently all that nonsense about the Welsh not having any vowels is just that they have different ones. Don't think they have anything to be insecure about actually, their language was here a long time before the English language came along and 99.9% of the ones that speak the language can speak two languages which is more than we can claim.
see below for further info.
www.omniglot.com/writing/welsh.htm
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"peculiarity of a language that is primarily oral"
Mrs PU says that's wrong. She says that it has a long and very high quality literary tradition.
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I believe this is what's called a "soft mutation".
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I believe this is what's called a "soft mutation".
Or Triglad meddal as i would say
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"a BMW 535d is a "Ffast iawn" - as opposed to the 335i in your other thread - a fast yawn.
I should think a Mini is a Mini in any language - or is there a Welsh word for it?
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I should think a Mini is a Mini in any language - or is there a Welsh word for it?
Erm, clyfesterau? Pardon my rustiness....
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Interestingly, there appears to be no Welsh word for "Stop", or not one they care to display on road signs anyway.
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If all the welsh speakers are bilingual, why waste tax-payers' money on bilingual signs? As everyone can speak english, why not stick to that?
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As a Welsh speaker from birth my wife wonders why there are any English signs at all.
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as Nick has just said though........if the common language that everyone speaks is...English... why waste money with dual signs? There really cannot be too many (if any) Welshmen who cannot understand English, so save some taxpayer's money
why have i got to read a foreign minority language (alongside the English print) whenever something comes from DVLA? I'd begrudgingly accept it sent to someone living in Wales, but still think it unnecessary as above... but why have Welsh elements of literature sent to an Englishman living in England?....(no doubt it is cost effective to bother the English with it, but not so cost effective that you don't bother with it in the first place)
should the Cornish start doing this, because their traditions said they used to....how far do we go back in time?.... should we all be Nordic/Roman?
get real........we all speak ENGLISH........no objections to others keeping their traditions going, in fact i think it's laudable......but don't see why it should cost extra for or be imposed on me
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I've probably said this on here before but when I was working in Cardiff I used to laugh because, whenever the Western Mail printed something in Welsh, it would be followed by a week of letters pointing out they had got it wrong and every letter had a different suggestion for saying it.
Eventually I concluded that they make up a lot of it as they go along.
Incidentally, I very much enjoyed South Wales and the Welsh!
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Eventually I concluded that they make up a lot of it as they go along.
A Welsh professor told me that he was cross because they were simply making up Welsh versions of many modern words.
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"I'd begrudgingly accept it sent to someone living in Wales"
Whilst I (also begrudgingly) accept what you say for the most part, why would it be begrudgingly accepted to send it to someone living in Wales? I have no Welsh connections of which I am aware, so no nationalism on my part, but I DO know more than one person in Wales (two in Bala, some others near Ffestiniog) that speak Welsh all the time, only switching to English (with which they struggle) when I am there.
No doubt, as arrogant English, we think they're "putting it on" or "making it up". I doubt it. Didn't we invade them and force our language on them? Should the Indians have all spoken English when we "owned" them? Nobody would DARE say that would they?
As I say, I accept the DVLA argument, I suppose I don't need Welsh on my V5 or whatever, but.... the DVLA is in Swansea? Maybe that's why?
Maybe I should just roll over on this, and start being the sort of person who barks in louder and louder English when I am on holiday! "TWO BEERS PEDRO.... Dear god are these people savages..." : )
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Should the Indians have all spoken English when we "owned" them? Nobody would DARE say that would they?
It is a fact that English is still the main official language of India, largely because there were 700 or more dialects/languages across India which were mutually unintelligible; without English it was virtually impossible to unify and administer India as one nation. :-)
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It's funny how this sort of thread always brings out the worst elements in people, it scares me that we are so ignorant of a culture that is totally different, but so geographically close to the English one and how easily we become so suspicious and insecure about something we don't understand, what possible chance have we got when we go abroad eh ?
It would be a lot easier if we rid ourselves of this troublesome land but at least they give us the opportunity to exercise our prejudices without leaving home.
No wonder that Anglo Amercian culture is being eschewed across the world.
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It's funny how this sort of thread always brings out the worst elements in people
I suppose it can...
No wonder that Anglo Amercian culture is being eschewed across the world.
It isn't. In the Far East, it's being taken on board wholesale. There is a large opportunity to do good.
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the begrudgingly accept element, is the fact that a national i.e, British institution funded by my British taxpayer's money is being spent on something that only benefits some people from 1 out of the 4 elements that makes up Britain, despite the fact they don't really need it because we have a national language they can speak
i really don't mind the DVLA being in Swansea, no doubt there was a sound economic reason for placing it there and I have always received good service from the no doubt mostly Welsh employees that work there..... and have no beef whatsoever with the Welsh themselves
....or anyone else for that matter.
as for the TWO BEERS PEDRO........i thoroughly agree with you, which is why in France for example, i try to speak their language... as it's rude not to
can someone not have an honestly held opinion on a subject without automatically being labelled racist or similar.... or anti the country/state/ people being discussed?
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If all the welsh speakers are bilingual why waste tax-payers' money on bilingual signs?
That's right, think of the huge saving in removing a few letters from the road signs. I'm sure my tax bill would drop by half......
I look forward to all British towns being renamed to the first few letters of their postcodes in a further cost saving.
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I should think a Mini is a Mini in any language - or is there a Welsh word for it?
Mini is derived from the Latin for small,smallest as in" miniscule"
Reminds me of the Welsh joke about the Englishman who asks the Welshman what the words for"restaurant" and "promenade" are in Welsh.Welshman replies "If you can tell me what they are in English,I`ll tell you what they are in Welsh"
Just look in your dictionaries,how many original English words are there? Very,very few!
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It's not just the Welsh you know, parts of Scotland have bilinguel signs in English & Gaelic, can be just as confusing too!
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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It's not just the Welsh you know parts of Scotland have bilinguel signs in English & Gaelic can be just as confusing too!
Now that is odd. Very few people speak Scots Gaelic, and it was always the language of the Highlands and Islands, having originated from Ireland in about the fifth century, which is why it is closer to Irish than Welsh. The true language of Scotland is presumably Lallans, or Scots, a dialect of English (or vica versa as they would see it). So, Scots and English signs might make sense.
I can understand the Welsh (or rather a sizeable minority) wanting Welsh signs. After all, English is the alien language. Like others I have met some who have trouble speaking English (such that I can understand them) and many who speak English as their second language.
Cornish is quite different. There are at least 500,000 Welsh speakers. Cornish is said to have died out and been revived by a small group of enthusiasts. Very few people if any speak Cornish as a first language.
Maybe we could have Scouse signs, and Geordie signs.
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Scouse road signs now there's a thought....
Slow = "Calm down, calm down"
NSL = "Come 'ed la"
Geordie? Well there's "Give Whaayay" for starters.
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Reminds me of the Welsh joke about the Englishman who asks the Welshman what the words for"restaurant" and "promenade" are in Welsh.Welshman replies "If you can tell me what they are in English,I`ll tell you what they are in Welsh"
How about "chop-house" and "walk"? Both of Old English origin.
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It would be much better if the celts took the chips off their shoulders and got on with life.
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It would be much better if the celts took the chips off their shoulders and got on with life.
I don't think it is a sign of having a chip on your shoulder to want signs in your own language. Or bank machines in your own language. Or court proceedings in your own language. And so on. Maybe it is a sign of our insecurity or cultural arrogance to assume that we can walk over everyone in these islands. Mind you, I draw the line at signs in Polish in Luton, though they would serve a purpose.
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>>Maybe it is a sign of our insecurity or cultural arrogance to assume that we can walk over everyone in these islands
What?!? The welsh can speak welsh if they want, no-one is stopping them. If they want signs in welsh, let them pay for them. The majority of the economy in Wales and Scotland is public sector, paid for by taxes paid mainly in the South-east of England and particularly London. They're happy to spend english pounds.
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What?!? The welsh can speak welsh if they want no-one is stopping them. If they want signs in welsh let them pay for them. The majority of the economy in Wales and Scotland is public sector paid for by taxes paid mainly in the South-east of England and particularly London. They're happy to spend english pounds.
my point exactly.......if the English wanted something that was only pertinent to the English and expected everyone else to fund it, then i'd fully expect the N.Irish, Scots and Welsh to moan about it....and rightly so
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>...if the English wanted something that was only pertinent to the English and expected everyone else to fund it...
Like the Olympic Games in London, perhaps?
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Back to the purely motoring issue: it can be rather confusing for the English-speaking visitor to Wales, especially when driving alone. I remember a trip I made a few years ago to see a customer in Cwmbran, which, being a New Town, has about 25 million roundabouts, of which you have to negotiate all but one on the way to wherever you want to go. I knew roughly how to get where I was going but assimilating the signs at roundabout approaches and exits in time is close to impossible - by the time you realize you've been trying to read the Welsh for 'bus station' it's too late and you've missed your exit. I don't think I've ever made so many double circuits of roundabouts in a single day!
Of course, the bilingual Welsh don't have this problem. I wonder if the same applies in other bilingual countries - Belgium, for instance, or South Africa.
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It is similar in Spain. On a trip to Valencia I noticed the warning sign on the bus about not to speak to the driver etc etc was in four languages. One was what I recognised as Spanish, one was Catalan and the other two were Valencian Catalan and another version similar to Catalan.
Should Catalans and Valencians also be told to get their 'chips off their shoulders' and start using purely Spanish?
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>...if the English wanted something that was only pertinent to the English and expected everyone else to fund it... Like the Olympic Games in London perhaps?
A, a lot of the English aren't that bothered about having them anyway
B, Londoners are picking up a fair part of the tab
C, If the Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish are to having to cough up in general taxation (i haven't been
following the progress of them), then they'd have every right to moan about it in my view,
albeit they are supposed to be a national games i.e. for the UK as a whole.
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It may come as a surprise to you, Nick, to learn that the vast majority of people in the UK do NOT live in London*, and whilst there is a large concentration of population in the South-East, it doesn't tip the balance so much that you can say "The majority of the economy in Wales and Scotland is public sector, paid for by taxes paid mainly in the South-east of England and particularly London."
If you are going to counter your argument with the old chestnut that "people are richer" down there, then whilst conceding that the top ten counties are indeed in the South (not just South East), I would ask you to look at this: society.guardian.co.uk/socialcare/story/0,,426383,...l to show some surprising (to some) pockets of wealth.
And I have to take issue with "They're happy to spend english pounds". Can you imagine the outcry if they wanted their own currency?!!
No wonder there was the old joke "Come home to a real fire, buy a holiday home in Wales" with some of the stuff I've read on here!
* It's true and I can prove it.... "but but but", hush children. Not everyone gets the tube to work, honestly.
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>>It may come as a surprise to you, Nick, to learn that the vast majority of people in the UK do NOT live in London*,
I didn't say they did, neither do I thank goodness. But 75% of the population live in 25% of the area which happens to be the SE. Neither did I say 'people are richer'. What I did say, and is true, is that the SE produces the majority of the GDP of the country. The Square Mile alone produces several % of GDP. If you draw a line from the Severn to the Wash, above it the majority of jobs depend on the public sector in one way or another. That is, they consume resources (while doing no doubt needed tasks) rather than create wealth.
I'm quite happy also for general taxation to pay for less wealthy parts of the country, as long as that country is the UK. Some (and only some, a minority) in Scotland and Wales want separation but are happy to be subsidised by UK PLC. They can't have it both ways. It's about time certain celts stopped fighting the battles fought hundreds of years ago, started looking forward and stopped whingeing about perceived slights. Any country that wants to get on in the world is learning english like crazy. Like it or not, it is the language of business and science.
My last words on the subject, and now back to motoring........
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If they want signs in welsh let them pay for them. The majority of the economy in Wales and Scotland is public sector paid for by taxes paid mainly in the South-east of England and particularly London. They're happy to spend english pounds.
You must have been away when that economics lesson was given in school? It doesn't work like that, otherwise MY taxes would only pay for the repair of MY street, policing around MY house and care for the sick in MY family.
What actually happens is everyones taxes goes into a huge pot that the government then spend as they feel like. Sorry, but that's how it is, and it's on things that cost a lot more than letters on a road sign.
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It's not just the Welsh you know parts of Scotland have bilinguel signs in English & Gaelic can be just as confusing too! --
Leaving for the Western Isles later today!
Gaelic signage is used mainly in the areas where there are gaelic speakers for place names. Apart from stuff in the motorway tourist shops (and possibly the border) the first sign I expect to see in gaelic will be on the A82 just after Tyndrum welcoming me to Highland region (or whatever it is now) and the Gaeltachd.
Most place names are recognisably the same Ceandibig/Kendibeg or Tairbeart/Tarbert. A fork in the road signed Rodel by the west or Rodel by the east is confusing in any language!, actually the Gaelic version of the latter is nearer to Rodel via the Bays - and perfectly descriptive.
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I am sure that the Welsh will be busy 'designing' new words to ensure that their ancient language evolves. The best way to avoid any problems with Welsh is to simply stay away- a bit extreme perhaps but, with the exception of rugby (possibly football) what can be the reason to go there.
BTW In addition to English I also speak passable French, Russian and some Ukrainian; the ability to thereby communicate with such a large number of people would logically preclude me from learning Welsh, much as I would be reluctant to learn Estonian (nice place though it is).
Mind you, the Welsh have been known to produce some interesting cars.
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I think your tongue is partly in your cheek, clive.....
Reasons to go, to North Wales at least, are: excellent driving roads (and if Brunstrom'd leave us all alone, they'd be even better), beautiful scenery: mountains, valleys, seaside, castles etc.
Even the A55, the dual carriegeway that piles it's way through the North Welsh coast to Chester is stunning in parts, Llandudno and Colwyn Bay (Bae Golwyn if memory serves) particularly are spectacular on a late summer evening. Could do with a few more bends, but visually it's very pleasant.
Would I be correct in saying that the Gilbern was Welsh? Didn't Prince Charles have one, an Invader?
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If the fellas across the Severn Bridge want to have 2 languages on their road signs, let 'em get on with it, I say. Not something over which I can get that excited, frankly.
I lived in Cardiff (or Caerdydd if you prefer) for 3 years when I was at uni and most of the very small amount of Welsh I know came from road signs...apart from such necessities as "Peint o Brains, os gwelwch yn dda", obviously.
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Would I be correct in saying that the Gilbern was Welsh? Didn't Prince Charles have one an Invader?
Gilbern were Welsh, don't know if Prince Charles had one though.
As of last month, Connaught are Welsh too. Back onto motoring!
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A quick Google reveals Prince Charles had one, as did Anthony Hopkins.
Will google Connaught now!
I tried to steer (NPI) the discussion back with my A55 talk... : )
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I've heard of Gilberns, of course, but what are the other interesting Welsh cars? Or, to make it easier, name five dull Welsh car manufacturers.
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Returning to the original topic, we have bilingual road signs in Ireland too. In the Gaeltachtanna (predominantly Irish speaking areas), directions are given in Irish first with English translations below them. Stop - conveniently - is stop (pronounced "Sthup") so no confusion there, and most people manage the red-and-while triangular sign with "Geall Sli" written on it at minor junctions.
In the rest of the country, signs are in English with Irish translations for directions - though not always on national roads or motorways where there are more placenames to fit on a billboard-type signpost.
As for bilingual Belgium, which someone mentioned above: Many French-speaking Belgians have poor Flemish - and vice versa. Roadsigns change abruptly from Flemish to French when you cross the border between regions. Also, for example, eastbound trains from Brussels stop in Flemish-speaking Leuven, but then cross the city and stop again on the far side...at Louvain.
Now that's confusing! Following the route to Dingle, then An Daingean (Dingle) is a cinch by comparison...
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Here are some Welsh imports from English:
Tacsi = Taxi (no x is used in Welsh) Similar to Turkish 'taksi'
Ambwlans = Ambulance
Plismon / blismon = Policeman (although 'police' is Heddlw or something!)
Ysbyty = Hospital!
I don't know much Welsh but some consonants at the beginnings of words change in certain circumstances.
Note: The above might include spelling mistakes!
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"Ysbyty"
NLSWMBOFPCR* says that Ysbyty is a very old Welsh word going back to the days of Knights Templar as found in the village of Ysbyty Ifan (James' Hopsital) on the A5 in Gwynedd), I'd like to know the origin of the word Taxi, doubt very much if it originated in England anyway. Heddlu appears on the bonnets of Brunstrom's fleet, nobody moans about that. WDB you exaggerate about Cwmbran's roundabouts there are only 23.5 million roundabouts I drove round them all for a laugh last year looking for the Pontypool Holiday Inn (honestly - I thought it was a joke as well).
*No Longer She Who Must be Obeyed for Politically Correct Reasons.
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