The real need is to educate other road users about blind spots and not to sit in them.
good point and so true
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I think what we need to do is install whatever mirrors or sensors are necessary to minimize or remove the blind spots, yes we need to enlighten other road users about blind spots on lorries and then we need serious custodial sentences and lengthy damaging bans on truck drivers who cause death or injury by failing to take account of other road users to the side of them. The blind spot is being abused by certain classes of lorry drivers who drive recklessly to increase turnround times and throughput and who care little for the safety of other road users. In every lorry sideswipe incident that I can recall it is the other road user that who comes off worst, often the lorry driver is completely oblivious, and as such I think that the legal onus needs to rest more on the lorry driver. They need to know that if they don't keep checking their blindspots and looking out for more vulnerable road users then their liberty and livelihood is at risk. It's a blunt instrument but I know from friends and personal experience that the M275 out of Portsmouth is a sideswipe lottery with weaving lorries rushing to or from a ferry, and if the onus is put not on the lorry driver but on other users to avoid the blind spots then we have a 3-lane motorway that for a significant time is not safe for cars or motorcycles to use. Also noteworthy that fact that 4 cyclists have been killed by lorries this year in London alone.
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if it such a problem that the EU has had to rule on it, why wait till the end of March 2009 or even June 2008? Surely it can't be too difficult or expensive to retro-fit, so why not give hauliers 3 months to do and get it done and dusted straight away?
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I agree that the timescale is ridiculous. I also read in one of the Sundays that the retrofit would cost less than than a tank of diesel. ISTM that haulage business dearly wants this kicked into the long grass and is trying desperately to play down any idea that these incidents are directly related to their work practices or lorries.
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Martin Sweeney, I can only assume you have never sat in or driven a large vehicle as you seem to be talking complete drivel.
Each time you add a mirror to a truck you are creating more blindspots behind them, I find DAF's quite bad for this, particularly the drivers side at roundabouts, it is quite easy to loose a bike and a small car behind them, and this is looking forward and to the right, the exact area you need to check when pulling onto a roundabout - how do you propose we loose this blindspot?
I have in the past been in an artic in London by the city, positioned to turn right, with right hand indicators going and yet still had both push bikes and motorcycles overtook me as I was trying to turn - by your way of thinking I would have been at fault had there been an accident - but would it really have been my fault?
As drivers we do not have eyes in the back of our heads or ESP, we use the mirrors we have, but a car sat in a blind spot for a long time as happens on motorways is easy to miss. If you were to undertake any form of advanced training they teach you to hang back until it is clear to overtake the truck completely so spending the minimum amount of time next to them - that is how you avoid the accident, not by trying to legislate. Are there not enough laws already that are quite sufficient to be used should the need arise?
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The real need is to educate other road users about blind spots and not to sit in them.
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Absolutely. I make concerted efforts to keep out of blind spots (particularly when on the bike) but the number of people who just sit in them, oblivious, amazes me. The way I figure it is, the bigger the vehicle I'm beside, the bigger the mess it will make of me!
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Give them as many mirrors as is practical and then they have ever flimisier excuses for their rushed, impatient, target-driven driving.
Maybe then the logistics managers may realise that these lorries have to operate in a real world where actions have consequences and there will be less ridiculous turnaround times for drivers.
What a pipe dream eh? I am aware even as I write that that it will never happen. Time is money, money is time etc. and that's all that matters isn't it?
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This is needed, and anyone who puts themselves in harms way like this needs reeducation and fast, but is not the "real need", as you say. The onus has to be put on the person who is, in the majority of cases, going to cause the injury or death and that is the driver of the lorry with the blind spots who makes the sudden manouevre that starts the chain of events. In many instances, the cyclists or cars find themselves in the blind spot of a lorry through no fault of their own due to the lorry joining a road or moving to a position which puts them in it's blind spot. If one has no escape route and the driver is oblivious to you then you are in extreme danger. If he's on the phone, eating a sausage roll and running late then you're way down his list and if he tanks you then he's looking at what, 6 points and a small fine. Not a huge motivation to double check his mirrors.
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"The real need is to educate other road users about blind spots and not to sit in them. "
Is it really? Please explain, I am intrigued. Obviously one would not deliberately sit in a truck's blind spot, but how can you not, at some point, be in a blind spot? And HOW, pray tell, can you be educated not to be hurt/killed by someone whose SOLE excuse is "I couldn't see you"?
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Is it really? Please explain I am intrigued. Obviously one would not deliberately sit in a truck's blind spot but how can you not at some point be in a blind spot? And HOW pray tell can you be educated not to be hurt/killed by someone whose SOLE excuse is "I couldn't see you"?
Well if you don't know where the blindspots are likely to be then I suggest you get yourself some advanced training, here they will teach you to hang back until there is suffecient room ahead of you so you can overtake and spend the minimum amount of time both in a blindspot and next to the truck in general.
Now do you need me to explain how to turn a steering wheel, or can you manage that yourself?
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TU you're missing a very large part of the problem that I outlined above of having yourself put in the blind spot with no means of escape. How would your wheel turning expertise get you out of that one as you're being rammed into the central reservation or another car?
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TU you're missing a very large part of the problem that I outlined above of having yourself put in the blind spot with no means of escape. How would your wheel turning expertise get you out of that one as you're being rammed into the central reservation or another car?
I have not missed the point at all. What are you doing in the blind spot in the first place? I havent driven a truck for over 15 months now, but neither have I had an accident with one, in the last week I have driven over 1500 miles on a touring holiday, at least 1000 of those miles on motorways, not once have I found myself hemmed in by a truck, if you cant manage to do that maybe you need further training or just use public transport???
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Yes you have and please lose the patronising attitude. I drive in excess of 50k per year and I'm a confident and competent driver. I have seen these incidents happen on countless occasions. If you've never seen or experienced this then you've been lucky but if you can't understand how this can happen then that's worrying. The minute that a lorry suddenly moves into an adjacent lane alongside you, you can end up in his blind spot. You've got cars immediately in front and behind so you're going nowhere. That lorry swerves by a foot or decides to move out into your lane and you're in trouble. The M275 is a 3 lane motorway which splits into three at the top, merges at high speed onto the M27 in 2 directions and onto an A road. Lorries, foreign and domestic weave from lane to lane to get their bearings and when the traffic's thick and one appears out of nowhere options can be limited. I know many good drivers locally who dread the accident that's coming from this blind spot problem. You clearly don't know about it, but it's a serious problem.
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MS, I know that section of road very well as I am not too far from it myself. I have seen blindspot accidents, in fact I posted about one some 18 moths or so ago, where a french wagon on the M25 sideswiped a Uk car. That time it was the trucks fault, I saw it happen, he changed lanes too quickly without looking - but adding more mirrors would unlikely of helped, there is legislation in place to deal with dangerous driving already so none new is needed.
As for Cyclists, well for starters how safe is it for them to be put on the hard shoulder on the A27 by the IBM building near where your example is? I have seen quite a few blown almost into the carriageway there, whose fault would that be? The only safe way is to separate the two types of traffic completely, maybe then cyclists would have to fund their own cycle lanes through their own road tax- now theres an idea!
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It happens with great frequency and my primary point is that the framework of charges and sentencing that is in place is out of date and wholly inadequate to serve as a deterrent to reckless driving which might endanger life.
I'm unsure what the cycle lane layout on the A27 has to do with this thread but the layout of cycle lanes in that area is badly though out and implemented as is typical of most of the UK. It invites traffic conflict and the fatal consequences though I'm a bit perplexed as to your notion of cyclists getting blown into the carriageway??? Most cyclists I've spoken to would happily contribute to such a proper contiguous cycle path scheme if there was any guarantee that it would be properly implemented. You seem to be falling in the trap of seeing cyclists as the aggressors or the enemy here. I do a huge mileage by car, but I also cycle and very occasionally motorcycle and I can see that these 3 groups are being killed as a result of a specific problem which the haulage industry is loath to address on it's own.
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I do a huge mileage by car but I also cycle andvery occasionally motorcycle and I can see that these 3 groups are being killed as a result of a specific problem which the haulage industry is loath to address on it's own.
I strongly disagree with this point, it is not an issue with the haulage industry, it is an issue with truck design and road layout. The haulage industry pays huge amounts of insurance premiums, it invests massively in technology to avoid accidents - ABS has been required to be fitted on trucks and trailers for a number of years, I may be wrong but it is still not required by law to be fitted to cars, it is still an option. Many safety devices such as stability control have been standard on trucks for years as well. What about the blindspots on cars? how about radios in cars? are we to have them removed because of the accidents they cause?
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You may well disagree but the facts confirm what I say. Last year the Road Haulage Association wrote to the Commission stating that after consultation they could not support a directive which mandated the fitting of blind spot mirrors on lorries due to the cost. The cost per lorry was between £60-£102 depending on the existing fitting, hardly a massive investment, but as I said, it shows how loath the hauliers are to even seriously consider the issue.
The other safety devices you mention are standard manufacturer fit and have no bearing that I can see on these blind spot incidents.
Blindspots on cars are a problem and most drivers are alert to whatever traffic may enter that spot. The threat and incident rate is not even remotely of the same magnitude as on lorries and as such I can't see how it's pertinent to this discussion.
I don't see what your radio point has to do with blindspots. How are you equating the sound of a radio with a blind spot large enough to swallow a car?
This is very much an issue with road hauliers but it's more than mirrors, it's accepting that other road users, motorists and cyclists, are being killed by haulier's lorries, by a pattern of negligent and reckless driving by their drivers in failing to pay extra attention to the traffic around them and specifically in their blindspots.
TBH I don't really see where you're coming from on this. The deaths and incidents directly flowing from this blindspot on lorries are numerous and irrefutable. IMO the directive is welcome but painfully slow in implementation and it doesn't address the reckless and negligent driving that leads to these incidents. The current charging and sentencing guidelines are woefully inadeqate and clearly present no deterrent to this driving, thus I think we need a much bigger stick. There is clearly a problem with the lorries which needs addressing or do you really think that it's everyone's fault but the lorry driver's.
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You may well disagree but the facts confirm what I say. Last year the Road Haulage Association wrote to the Commission stating that after consultation they could not support a directive which mandated the fitting of blind spot mirrors on lorries due to the cost. The cost per lorry was between £60-£102 depending on the existing fitting hardly a massive
Maybe not massive, but still considerable, how often will that mirror need replacing? They get hit and break far more often then a car mirror. Profit margins in road haulage are very very low, many trucks run for less then £1.10 per mile, for a vehicle that only does 7-8mpg any additional cost is significant. That is quite apart from the fact of just where the hell are you going to fix them? In a truck that will already have 3 or 4 near side and 1 or 2 drivers side mirrors you run out of places. Forward visibility is already compromised by the amount of mirrors already fitted.
investment but as I said it shows how loath the hauliers are to even seriously consider the issue.
Total and utter rubbish, no driver or haulier wants to be involved in an accident regardless of the cost.
Blindspots on cars are a problem and most drivers are alert to whatever traffic may enter that spot. The threat and incident rate is not even remotely of the same magnitude as on lorries
Please provide evidence of this if you are so sure. How many studies have there been regarding blind spots in cars?
This is very much an issue with road hauliers but it's more than mirrors it's accepting that other road users motorists and cyclists are being killed by haulier's lorries by a pattern of negligent and reckless driving by their drivers in failing to pay extra attention to the traffic around them and specifically in their blindspots.
Pure piffle, there maybe the very odd case with which that may be the case but in 99.9% of hauliers and drivers you are so far off the mark it is laughable.
TBH I don't really see where you're coming from on this. The deaths and incidents directly flowing from this blindspot on lorries are numerous and irrefutable. IMO the directive is welcome but painfully slow in implementation and it doesn't address the reckless and negligent driving that leads to these incidents. The current charging and sentencing guidelines are woefully inadeqate and clearly present no deterrent to this driving thus I think we need a much bigger stick. There is clearly a problem with the lorries which needs addressing or do you really think that it's everyone's fault but the lorry driver's.
Try actually getting in a truck and driving one for a while, then maybe your views will change to realise just how many of the general public have no idea whatsoever about how to drive safely and keep themselves out of harms way and reduce risk.
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The methodology of fitting these mirrors isn?t the issue, the sticking point for the hauliers is the £68-£102 cost. I?ve no idea how often they need replacing but commonsense says not very and against the cost of lives saved it?s still peanuts.
I?ve never stated that a haulier wants to be involved in an accident, who does? What I am saying however is that the industry is doing precious little to sort this problem at its end. You can denounce this as rubbish all you like, but this contention what is supported by the accident rate, the deaths and the fact that the industry isn?t willing to spend a very small amount to attempt to mitigate the problem.
I didn?t bring up and try to equate the problem of car blindspots, that,I?m afraid, was your attempt to sidetrack the thread. Two stats off the top of my head; 4 dead cyclists this year in London alone due to lorry blindspots, none from cars. European yearly death toll directly attributable to lorry blindspots 400, from cars the figure is so negligible that it?s not even reported. Why do you think that there is such activity over sorting this? What benefit is there to the safety of motorists and cyclists by inventing equivalences to drown the issue? Anyway, if you?re trying to make an equivalence let?s hear your evidence, and ond't forget about the radio evidence.
You use words like piffle and rubbish as if you?re about to actually provide some evidence or even reasoning that disputes what I say but so far all you?ve done is waffle and try to patronize. The cause of the vast majority of these incidents is the reckless and negligent driving failing to take account of traffic movements around the driver?s blindspot. You can fire off abuse as much as you want but aren?t changing the facts are advancing any other reasonable explanation.
Ah right so here's where you're coming from, it's nothing to do witht he lorry driver crushing the motorist or the cyclist or running them off the road, it?s the fault of the general public. So anybody who doesn?t drive a truck, like most of the members of this forum I?d guess, doesn?t know how to drive and needs training? Seriously, listen to yourself and wise up, this kind of twaddle is ridiculous.
FWIW I?ve travelled a fair bit in trucks and while most of them are driven well, a fair percentage, especially the skip and tipper trucks I mentioned earlier, are driven recklessly and too fast, especially in urban areas. If you haven't seen any of this then I have to wonder how many miles you travel by car, bike or pushbike per year? As I said I travel by car, bike and pushbike and yes I?ve seen some dodgy roadcraft by car, bike and push bike users but I?ve also seen some terrifying manoeuvres by truck drivers which endangered the lives of everyone around them. I?ll warrant that there are very few truck drivers who have killed by a collision with a car, bike or pushbike, the damage and the injury is largely one way, so open your eyes and lose the holier than thou patronizing attitude; people are being killed here and all you?re doing is making some very unconvincing excuses.
I'm saying that we need education of all road users, including lorry drivers, we need to help lorry drivers with safety devices, in spite of the industry's reluctance and we need deterrent sentencing against reckless and dangerous driving in this regard. You seem to be saying it's everybody else's fault and that the hauliers and drivers are wholly blameless and need no lessons or further regulation in this regard.
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Whilst agreeing with a lot of your theory you have made some very glaring errors.
No pushbike deaths in london this year from cars? Check facts again !
Very few truck drivers killed in collisions with cars bike or pushbike ! What about the deaths/serious injuries caused by emergency manoeuvering out of the way of the same. A lorry driver is MORE likely to be injured or killed in a collision than a car driver is ! Most are aware of it and drive accordingly.
The point about blind spots that the anti lorry brigade here are keen to miss is that it doesnt matter how many mirrors or how slow or careful the driver of the lorry is; as soon as their is any movement of the steering wheel, vision down the side (or both if enough movenment) is LOST ALTOGETHER! So then if a vehicle or pedestrian moves into that area He simply cannot be seen = accident possibly death.
Its not right and I am not saying its not the lorry drivers fault or responsibility but just consider this. Sit in your car, look around, put a blindfold on and then move! Virtually impossible? Yes, but its the nearest I can explain how driving a lorry islike !
The responsibility lays on 2 sides. The lorry and the other party.
Virtually the only way round it in busy areas is possibly to have a driver and a mate an old fashioned job that got cut because of expenses (by management not drivers!). Ironoically its the foreign lorries that are more likely to have 1 to assist in extra vision because of their need to cover greater distances in time scale!
Imo the introduction of a mate (very expensive though) would greatly contribute to road saftey of these lorries.
I would prefer less lorries on the road personally but we all want cheap products from all over the world rather than local produce and goods so its not likely!
Regardless of what the arguments are I dont think either side is supporting the view that accidents and deaths are good ! But mirrors alone will not make any difference ! Its just a help.
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Some very very good points there, yorkiebar. Will ponder them.
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I think I will just Yorkie get on with it as he puts things far better and less emotionally then I can on this subject.
However, maybe we should just end up with the trucks pictured here www.kk.org/streetuse/archives/vehicles/ that should solve all our problems!!
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"Try actually getting in a truck and driving one for a while, then maybe your views will change to realise just how many of the general public have no idea whatsoever about how to drive safely and keep themselves out of harms way and reduce risk."
I'm not going to do that, am I? Not PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED to be able to do it, therefore don't do it.
I think if something is considered worthy of special training for a profession, then it is the DUTY of those drivers to drive in a manner befitting that training. Also, their employers and indeed them need to take some responsibility for their actions. As I have said before, the pressures of drop-offs and deliveries are in no way an excuse for poor, rushed, arrogant and unthinking driving.
Is someone's life worth more than a lorry full of potatoes? Even in this capitalist's paradise, I'd like to say an unequivocal yes.
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I understand Martin precisely, having recently been in just that position. I was in the centre lane of a 3-lane motorway, and max-size articulated truck came barrelling down a junction on-ramp . I knew from the signwriting that he would require the centre lane because of upcoming lane changes at subsequent junctions, so I moved to right lane to let him into the centre. Queue built up behind me, and truck didn't change lanes, so I moved back into the centre lane level with his cab, thinking that he would notice me when he looked right before lane-changing. WRONG!! Truckie decided that he wanted to change lanes after all, so signalled and moved at the same time. Couldn't accelerate without rear-ending the car in front. Couldn't go right because of the stream of traffic that I had just released. Only option was to emergency brake and hope that I could clear his rear. Just made it. Fortunately, the constabulary patrol car behind was following at a respectable distance and reduced speed in time to avoid rear-ending me. Constable pulled the truckie over for a short discussion.
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i think what we need to do TU is bring back national conscription because one thing everyone would be taught is how to drive a tk bedford with no power steering and how to look out for doylans that stay in the blind spots of all commercial vehicles from an escort van to an artic with a its not my fault he chopped my leg off with his waggon AND I AM GUNNA SUE SUE and bob too
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sorry Martin Sweeney this was a general observation it was not meant to be to you it just took me ages to type out #
sorry
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There seem to be two separate issues here and I think they're getting mixed up. One is the specific problem of LHD trucks on UK motorways, whose drivers sometimes cause accidents by moving out to the right when they can't see what's in that lane. Blind spot mirrors may make a difference here if each truck has one that gives a clear view, down to ground level, along the side. And if the truck drivers bother to look in them, of course! And that still doesn't excuse the rest of us from paying attention to our road positioning, and from assuming that the truck driver can't see us until we're sure he can.
As others have said, the other situation is in town traffic and on junctions such as roundabouts, where extra mirrors will make no difference and it's all about defensive driving, anticipation and road positioning. Bhoy Wonder's mother may have been unfortunate the first time - and the driver was certainly culpable. But for the same thing to happen twice! If the truck hit her as it moved across to exit the roundabout - and presuming the driver didn't see her and hit her on purpose! - she must either have kept pace with the truck round the roundabout or come up from behind on its left hand side, which defies all the rules of defensive driving. Sorry, BW, but if she's had two incidents like that and still thinks there was nothing else she could have done, then I wouldn't get into a car with her.
It's a bit like being mugged for your iPod or shiny mobile phone - no-one's suggesting the mugger is in the right, but if you wave the thing around in public there's what M'Learned Friends call 'contributory negligence' at work in putting yourself at risk in the first place.
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I think there is also a campaign to get large warning signs on the nearside rear of lorries telling cyclists NOT to undertake. This may well have some beneficial effect as I'm certain there are many cyclists who are simply unaware of the risk.
However it's not always simple to educate people - what's a cyclist supposed do when they're cycling, as they are meant to, along a designated cycle lane at the edge of the road and are confronted with a slow/stationary lorry?
Especially if they can see that just in front of the lorry is a cyclists advance stop line...
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If Volvocars can create the BLIS system and offer it for c.£600 to a mid-£20k car, why can't the truck manufacturers collectively ask Bosch or one of the other Cat1 suppliers to provide a similar system ?
BLIS for those who don't know eliminates the blind spot in the car door mirror?s field of view with the intention of making lane changes safer in streams of traffic. A wide-angle camera in each mirror arm surveys the blind spot area and relays the information to a computer which assesses the level of risk. If the object it spots is moving much faster than you are, or you are moving much faster than it, this is considered low risk and a warning unnecessary. But if, as is so often the case in parallel streams of traffic, a car has sneaked up on you or you have simply forgotten about it, the system warns you something sitting in your blind spot by means of a light in the door trim next to the mirror.
No extra mirrors, no extra blind spots and if fitted as OEM would reduce the overall price.
You may not see anything in the mirror but a bright orange light in the door within field of vision of the mirrors lets you know something is there.
It won't address the cyclist problem. If a cyclist comes across a slow moving truck then they must assume the truck is probably planning a manoevre. Undertaking is not recommended on any form of transport.
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I've been finding it quite difficult not to get angry with some of the garbage written in this thread so, after calming myself down a bit, here goes.
1) In an artic, as soon as the cab is turned relative to the trailer, either to the left or to the right, you *cannot* see down the passenger side of the truck. No amount of extra mirrors on the cab will ever alter this. The view in your passenger side mirrors just allows you to see the back end of the tractor unit under these conditions. You are truly blind - no amount of extra diligence or training can help you. To see down the driving side, you probably have to stick your head ou of the driver's window, as again, your mirrors aren't much use.
2) A good HGV driver will be typically checking his mirrors at least every 10 seconds - compare this with many car drivers! It sometimes feels as though you are looking backwards as much as forwards. However, even with the best will in the world, there are occaisons, when you are going to miss something.
3) IMO, the standard driving test should at least be taken in a panle van, or even better, i a 7.5 tonner. As Olman suggested, this will at least give car drivers some idea what it is like to drive a truck, and this will help them keep out of the dangerous areas.
4) Although margins are tight, I can't imagine any haulier making too mush fuss about the cost of an extra mirror. In comparison to the cost of a tank of fuel, a tyre, or a routine service, the cost is in the noise. I do understand the case that adding extra mirrors may not actually enhance *total* visibility - as has been mentioned, every mirror adds another blind area.
5) Car drivers - although you don't have a licence to drive one, please at least take the opportunity if you can to sit in a truck, and see how little the driver can see - especially if the cab is turned relative to the trailer.
6) If a driver has been careless or negligent, then by all means, he should be "done", but if he couldn't humanly have seen what he hit, how can it be fair to punish the driver - who really is not a decision maker, and is certainly not in a position to specifiy his vehicle.
Number_Cruncher
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1) In an artic as soon as the cab is turned relative to the trailer either to the left or to the right you *cannot* see down the passenger side of the truck. No amount of extra mirrors on the cab will ever alter this. The view in your passenger side mirrors just allows you to see the back end of the tractor unit under these conditions. You are truly blind - no amount of extra diligence or training can help you. To see down the driving side you probably have to stick your head ou of the driver's window as again your mirrors aren't much use.
BLIS camera's could be added to the side of the trailer(s), the technology is not expensive.
The single light on each side of the cab lets the driver know something is there.
He/She won't be able to see it but they are aware that something is there and it is not safe to continue...
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Whilst the blis is a good idea for motorway lanes etc it has a downside on the traffic and junctions problems. These are obviously 2 different issues.
There will always be somethng at the side of a trailer in heavy traffic and so the warning will be of little use if he can see the bus on his left but not the bike! etc.
Not disagreeing with the idea but it is a bit more involved than it appears unless you have actually sat in the driving seat of a cab.
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I have a feeling I may be one of those who have annoyed you. Apologies, it is hard to write concisely without seeming dismissive.
To sum up, if I may, I am NOT saying that every lorry driver is uncaring. I think I might veer towards a view that employers put them under too much pressure, but that's subjective and just an impression gleaned from people I know who work in logistics.
I am also not saying that dilligence or training or mirrors are an all-embracing solution.
What DOES worry me is the attitude of certain folk, and not you Number_Cruncher, who seem to automatically assume that we are picking on poor down-trodden lorry drivers... we're not. My point is merely that we should do everything possible to stop accidents, and that DOES include weeding out the careless and negligent, whether they be drivers or employers.... maybe a simpler point to make would be a careless and negligent lorry driver can in many circumstances cause more damage than the driver of a smaller vehicle; and that you can't use economics as an argument against loss of life. "But he was in a hurry to deliver X to Y".... mmm I don't think so. And yes, I KNOW that is a different argument to some of the others, just reiterating my point.
When I pompously say that they are professionally trained and should always conform to this, I am merely pointing the finger at the mavericks. As ever, the badly-behaved minority causes problems for the well-behaved majority.
There are bad eggs in any profession, especially if you work on a chicken farm.
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>>I think I might veer towards a view that employers put them under too much pressure
I do tend to agree with that. My experience driving trucks was via an agency, and so, I saw quite a few different companies. Although this is a bit of a generalisation, the companies who used their own trucks to deliver their own products to their own customers tended not to pressurise their drivers as much.
At the other end of the scale were companies whose trucks I refused to drive after walking round to give them an inspection in the morning. Although I needed the money, I didn't need it that badly!
As for professionally trained, in my case, my HGV training took me 5 days. After that, companies were happy to allow me to take out their trucks to do their work. Having grown up in a garage and haulage yard environment, it wasn't such a travesty in my case, but no-one made any checks to see if I was actually up to the job. That the agency had seen my class 1 licence was enough. I can't imagine many real "professions" which you can get into after 5 days!!
Being realistic, truck driving - however much the pay and conditions might improve - is never going to attract the most diligent and concientious slice of the working population, because these types will have also been diligent at school, and so, will probably be qualified and inclined to do more mentally, personally, and technically demanding jobs.
I really do agree that the careless and negligent should weeded out, and I certainly have seen some thankfully rare but nevertheless apalling examples of truck driving. The points sytem does provide a reasonable deterrent though - you can't leave a trail of destruction behind you everywhere you drive, when driving is the main part of your job, and get away with it for long!
While agreeing with the general tone, I would prefer to say that we should do everything that is *reasonably* possible to reduce accidents. I happen to think that we have swung way too far already towards an excessive safety culture, and we should begin to accept responsibility for our actions. I think too many people carry on in their activities without thinking (in this case about blind spots and how long to "lurk" in them), placing too heavy a reliance on the diligence of others. One of the clauses in the health and safety at work act says that you have a duty to think about your own safety - I think this should be more generally applicable!
>>As ever, the badly-behaved minority causes problems for the well-behaved majority.
I'm in full agreement here.
Number_Cruncher
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"I happen to think that we have swung way too far already towards an excessive safety culture, and we should begin to accept responsibility for our actions."
Full agreement. I am not, and never will be, an advocate of the ambulance-chasing brigade!! : )
"I would prefer to say that we should do everything that is *reasonably* possible to reduce accidents."
That's what I meant to say really, I just use too many words....
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What DOES worry me is the attitude of certain folk and not you Number_Cruncher who seem to automatically assume that we are picking on poor down-trodden lorry drivers... we're not.
I presume this is pointed towards me. I don't automatically assume anything, I have worked in Transport/Logistics for the best part of 15 years now, starting at the bottom and working my way up, I now run my own consultancy business dealing with small haulers and owner drivers every day, I see the effects that over regulation is having on them - which is basically what you seem to be advocating.
Maybe getting hold of a copy of Commercial Motor this week may change your views, Week after week they report on actions the Traffic Commissioners have taken on both rogue operators and drivers. They have the power to suspend a drivers LGV licence and do so on a regular basis, and this is without the time and money spent by the CPS having to go through court cases. So as I have said, there is enough in place already to deal with the rogue elements, further regulation will not prevent it, they need to be caught first and no amount of legislation or roadside cameras are going to do a proper job of that!
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Only partly aimed at you, TU! I do have some sympathy towards fear of over-regulation, trust me on that one.. see my comments agreeing with Number_Cruncher about "safety culture".
And if by "they need to be caught first" you refer to not enough police, then I agree and will leave it at that! My views can get a little militant on that..... (I hear you think "there's a surprise"!!). : )
I enjoy these debates.... there's a lot of intelligent people on here with eclectic interests. I nearly wrote "very eclectic"... is that an oxymoron? Particularly pleasantly surprised by the James May and music comments on another thread, for example.
No offence intended to anyone, just like arguing!
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