A standard issue police motorbike used by 22 forces poses a "serious" threat to riders' lives, a coroner has said.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6600897.stm
"The evidence that I have heard convinces me that at speed in excess of 80mph and in variable circumstances, which cannot be predicted, the motorcycle has a tendency to develop a violent and sudden weave which results in a loss of control with catastrophic results for the individual officer involved."
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I'm not surprised, it's a tourer for obese types. Add plod equipment and it's a recipe for disaster. What ever happened to that nice Norton Wankel (with optional flame thrower)?
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well i know nothing about motorbikes but thought this was called tank slap?
and in the main can be adjusted out with modifications to front suspensions/shockers i was always led to believe
Doesnt seem right that a policeman should lose his life while training on one of the things.
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There have been quite a few of these auctioned off, and then onto ebay.
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Interesting thread, the Coroner's letter is quite a strong sanction. This will impact on the Health and Safety Risk Assessment on these bikes and consequently on their operational use. Horrendous incident.
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>>but thought this was called tank slap?
Those who do research work in the subject of motorcycle dynamics define a few different types of instability, among which are;
capsize mode - that's simply the bike falling over to most people, and it happens at "zero frequency" - i.e., it's not a vibration, it just happens. Most riders automatically make the right corrections to stop this happening. If, however, you locked the steering solid, and set off, then you would get capsize mode happening very quickly!
weave mode - usually a relatively slow oscillation of the whole bike, typically with its root cause being a lack of frame stiffness - the deflections of the frame - and sometimes the drivetrain relative to the frame - form a part of the vibration "mode shape"
tank slapper - where there is a steer oscillation of the front wheel and forks, which is typically controlled by increasing the damping between the forks and the frame - those riders with great skill can stop the oscillations of a tank slapper building by temporarily pulling a wheelie.
To find more, seach for papers by Sharp - he really knows his onions! I find the dynamics modelling and the maths behind this particular subject very interesting indeed, although I have never built any models myself.
Number_Cruncher
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"problems affected only police models of the motorcycle with their heavy emergency and communications equipment."
So howcome it's Honda's fault? If the bikes belonged to you or me, we would be in the firing line for overloading them. Balance is everything on a bike, and I imagine that the kit made these machines tail heavy. Is their suspension uprated and are steering dampers fitted? Probably not...
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So howcome it's Honda's fault? >>
Not our place here to apportion blame though I reckon Hinda will have developed the bike for the application.
Tank slap is a much used term and may apply, a steering damper may help though almost seems to obvious under the circumstances.
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">Not our place here to apportion blame<"
Why not? It's a rubbish design used in the wrong application; it's for touring, not fast pursuit. Didn't plod use Blackbirds at one time?
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Hinda, doh, sorry.
Not our place here to apportion blame cos we dont know the full facts. I for one am not going to libel Honda in such circumstances because a judgment has not been made against them.
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This sounds like a re-run of the BMW bike saga where police lives were being lost. I was involved in some of the testing of these machines which, in standard form I believe to be safe. They then changed to Hondas.
I'm afraid the machines are generally unsuitably loaded. In addition they are given to officers who, for the first time in their lives have an opportunity to ride solo on public roads a machine with a higher power to weight ratio than anything they would ever be likely to own. They are also immune from prosecution. Many of them are of limited academic ability.
The consequences are sadly only too obvious. Even the brightest of our our young officers are unable to buck the laws of physics.
659.
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I'm afraid the machines are generally unsuitably loaded.>>
I think you are right.
In addition they are given to officers who for the first time in their lives have an opportunity to ride solo on public roads a machine with a higher power to weight ratio than anything they would ever be likely to own.>>
Not sure, many are genuine bikers with high powered bikes of their own.
>>Many of them are of limited academic ability.
Harsh as a comment, probably untrue and also somewhat irrelevant.
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"In addition they are given to officers who, for the first time in their lives have an opportunity to ride solo on public roads a machine with a higher power to weight ratio than anything they would ever be likely to own. They are also immune from prosecution. Many of them are of limited academic ability."
Rubbish.
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As a part of the BMW trials, officers brought sample machines to the test facility which I was in charge of. This was an establishment with a very high level of security. I'm afraid that the "canteen culture" of the officers involved was captured on our surveillence equipment.
659.
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Oh Well if in doubt stereotype.
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"In addition they are given to officers who, for the first time in their lives have an opportunity to ride solo on public roads a machine with a higher power to weight ratio than anything they would ever be likely to own."
I agree with Cheddar, Police pay is pretty good, I know plenty of Officers who own seriously fast bikes, certainly faster and more powerful and more competent than the boxer twins than you refer to.
What the hell has academic ability got to do with this ? Again I know plenty of Police Officers with University education and in nearly 30 years of motorcycling I have known plenty of very capable poorly educated expert riders who could ride rings around their better educated bikers.
What you say comes across as elitist, arrogant and down right insulting twaddle - and has annoyed me.
Remind us how long ago was the BMW handling fiasco ????
"I'm afraid that the "canteen culture" of the officers involved was captured on our surveillence equipment."
Friend, when I was a student (and I am pretty well educated) our canteen culture would make a Policeman blush I can tell you !
Oh and I'm sure that most "plods" could spell "surveillance" whatever academic standard they were educated at.
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">Many of them are of limited academic ability.<"
You're trolling aren't you. Riding a bike has nothing to do with educational attainment and everything to do with training and experience .The very best training is riding a dirt bike, the crashes will occur but providing the trees are avoided then serious injury is unlikely to result.
Who approved the use of the Honda? Who approved the modifications?
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A tragedy no doubt.
It's refreshing, though, to see that the speed limit on the M58 has finally been raised to an eminently sensible 110mph.
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Hi Cheddar
Quite handy having a noddy bike that can't go over 70mph. once again its typicle of a goverment institution that doesn't carry out enough prior investigation & testing! NHS computers! VOSA computerisation. they do do well don't they all @ tax payers expense
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The last time I saw a policeman on a motorcycle it was a Velocette! I must get out more!
--
L\'escargot.
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Plod in London use 'bikes for escort work. I think they quite enjoy the leap frogging bit through the traffic. The 'bikes (BMs?) are certainly given a good thrashing, although the signals given to other road users are very confusing.
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One tends not to be able to get a bike up to 110 mph in london
well unless one is a courier
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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"> One tends not to be able to get a bike up to 110 mph in london<"
Ah yes, the 1980s, happy days. Launching from the south side of Waterloo bridge, nowhere for observers to conceal themselves, and then dive into the tunnel through to Kingsway. A special treat for shift workers.
My award for most thrashed bike in an urban situation goes to plod-escorting-on-a-BMW several (many) years ago. I'm sure I could see the valve covers bulging under the strain, loping overtakes all undertaken in one gear. I would like to ride a plodbike in London, if only to clear the riffraff out of the way; of course, the down side is having to deal with the riffraff when one arrives wherever one is hurrying to.
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many moons ago.........i used to drive the big Rover SD1 poice cars in central london in anger...the despatch riders would latch on to you filtering through the traffic (inc the keep left bollards, the cheeky sods).....it was incredibly distracting when you're trying your best not to run a tourist over or T bone the inevitable 'u' turning cab, to have a m/c headlight bobbing about in your mirror, right on your tail.........my way of dealing with it was to wait for a slight straight bit, choose my moment, then brake when they weren't expecting it..... i'd floor it again before any drama, but the whites of their eyes said all... and the practice would immediately cease
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Plod in London use 'bikes for escort work. although the signals given to other road users are very confusing.
What's confusing about 'Stop now, and stay the pink fluffy dice out of the way if you know what's good for you!'?
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What, where plod waves at road user, road user pulls in ready to accept a stern lecture or worse, plod zooms off? Very confusing. Perhaps I should clarify, it's confusing for other road users but not me because I am fully observant. Definitely.
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The last time I saw a policeman on a motorcycle it was a Velocette! I must get out more! -- L\'escargot.
The genuine original Noddy bike.
Haven't been out since 1965 eh? I wouldn't try it now if I were you. Heart attack a strong possibility.
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"would like to ride a plodbike in London, if only to clear the riffraff out of the way; of course, the down side is having to deal with the riffraff when one arrives wherever one is hurrying to. "
This thread has taken a distinct happier line. Thanks.
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