maybe some type of bar similar to rollercoaster rides, that come down when the doors close, and bus moves, and lifts again when bus stops and doors open again.
obviously not feasable expense wise to existing busses, but possibly a safety feature in new designs?
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Something things that comes to mind if this turns out the bus toppled onto its side.
1. What about some airbags on the side of the bus set-off by tilt sensors?
2. Some sort of "tilt-cage" shooting out from the side in a similar way as pop-up roll-cages on some convertibles? Could be low down to try to help rectify problem and then something at roof level if the worst happens. Have to think of other cars but if the bus toppled over it would top onto a car anyway.
3. Ballast tanks that moves the central ballast to the opposite side in an emergency to stabilise the coach? Obviously something should make the driver stop too.
Sure coaches and other tall vehicles could be made safer.
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The bus that crashed wasn't fitted with the Electronic Stability Control system.
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A passenger interview on the Beeb just now (passenger was injured) said that he didn't think the bus would make it round the corner just before the crash. And the driver steered sharply to right and the left.... and then the bus went over.
The Beeb reported drove down the same bit of road... I think it had a 40mph advisory limit.
I hope they find a fault with the coach. This driver has enough to live and cope with already.
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The bus that crashed wasn't fitted with the Electronic Stability Control system.
>>
Jason Barlow was pontificating about it on CH4. I had no idea he was an expert on that subject.
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Whatever we find was the cause of it, surely the consequences of it could have been reduced by universal seat belt use.
This is something that baffles me- people can sit ( for example, on a bus) and read their Daily Mail-or similar- scare story about how many murderers have been allowed out of jail on licence, thus creating a one in a million chance of harm to them, but do nothing about the one in a thousand chance of them dying or suffering serious injury because they do not take a simple action, faastening a seat-belt. And even worse the people who are supposed to be responsible for children/teenagers in their charge who do nothing about it either,
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I have a colleague who hates to wear a seat belt in the back of a car......because he "doesn't like being told what to do"..
No he's not 5, he is 35....
He did, fortunately for him, put his seat belt on, on a 4 hour cross Wales (North to South) run last year, otherwise voices would have been raised. It's not just you that needs to be thought about - a full grown adult coming at you at speed is going to hurt ! (Cycles, Motorbikes, Cars, Buses, all the same).
I and my kids all belt up in any vehicle, taxi's included !
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If he was in the back of my car & refused to put the seatbelt on he would be getting out & walking!
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Just read in the DT that since September you have to wear a seatbelt in coaches by law. I only knew about the child regulations.
Some representative from National Express said in the DT that the drivers always ensure that passengers are always belted - absolute rubbish in my experience on the two journeys I had recently.
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I thought if they are fitted, you wear them ?
I don't use buses or coaches in the UK, but they all have seat belts on holiday (i.e. not UK) for airport transports and it's always mentioned about using them by all UK tour operators !
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Neoplan have been making double deckers for years. I wouldn't have thought they'd put an unstable one into production.
Going of topic, the Skyliner looks fairly impressive, but the Starliner is a stunning looking beast.
www.neoplan.de/en/Products/Coaches/Starliner/Pictu...p
Also if you tap Neoplan into YouTube theres quite a few videos there. This one is rather long and in German but shows a few manoevers - hard cornering, swerving, skidpan etc, the video seems to make a big point about how the coach can be driven at speed over dirt.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSabDvAz850
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Sorry, the English version is here
www.youtube.com/watch?v=60at7T0qKeA
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My son spent several years driving buses. He reckons these are about the best ones on the road, much better than the older vehicles most small operators have to run.
A terrible thing to happen. No doubt the tacho will be scrutinized.
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I thought if they are fitted, you wear them ?
I do wear them (seatbelts) but I was referring to the other passengers on the bus including airline cabin crew.
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Chaz
That classic "target attraction" crash on the M40 that you mentioned was anything BUT an accident.
How did the person that allowed a reportedly "hopeless" 2CV driver to drive a minibus full of children after being up for 21 hours [and driving for 17!] ever escape a manslaughter charge?
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A bit of snippage to this thread I'm afraid - apologies to those of you whose comments have had to go. Please remember that once someone is arrested, the case is active and there are restrictions on what you can/can't say, even when they are bailed. I've removed all references to the way the coach was being driven and anything that might in any way imply that the driver is guilty.
PG
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looks like the bus involved has selectable rear wheel steer, maybe a fault in it?
others may have more knowledge. jag.
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jag, the rear most axle steers at low speeds to aid manoeuvrability.
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peterperfect, note the word -selectable- . it is not unknown for the selectable steer systems in other types of machinery to develop faults with terrifying results. jag.
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Just read your posting...apologies..looks as though you might have to 'snip' mine!
{Done - DD}
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Let us not forget that buses and coaches, along with trains and planes, still represent the safest form of travel available.
If and when an accident or incident does occur, it's the large number of passengers involved that bring them to our attention.
However, the number of people killed and injured in cars annually is dramatically higher overall.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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I was thinking the side windows are very large and as it is a double-decker, it would crash down from a height onto it's side. Maybe it would be best to make the side windows small as on an aeroplane, or make them out of some unbreakable plastic like they use for riot shields?
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It's right right that the moderator is being cautious about what is said here re the driver but there's a misunderstanding here.
Whether or not you may think it's right comment is only sub judice after someone has been charged .So far this driver hasn't been.
If you remember the Ipswich murders all kinds of comment was made before someone was charged
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Thanks, but I'm not arguing with you about it. I know that a case is active once someone is arrested.
Anyone else want to debate contempt, and maybe some defamation too, my inbox, and my many copies of McNaes, are always open. :)
PG
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>maybe the side windows should be small, as on an aeroplane
Areoplane windows are small for quite a different reason. An aeroplane is a pressurised body. The result of this pressure is that the tube where passengers sit is subject to high stresses. The inclusion of windows increases local stressing.
The Comet airliner had nice large square windows. And they fell out of the sky after a few years.
(The corners act as stress concentrators.)
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"even worse the people who are supposed to be responsible for children/teenagers in their charge who do nothing about it either, "
It's a real problem - I sometimes drive minibuses with schoolchildren in. There are notices in the buses to say that ALL passengers MUST wear seatbelts and also a notice to say that the DRIVER is responsible for ensuring that this is complied with, but it needs frequent checks in the rear view mirror to ensure compliance, and to be quite honest, it is still impossible to see whether the little blighter in the back seat has his belt on. It really needs an alarm light or buzzer (like in cars) to warn the driver if any seatbelt is not being worn. I have on several occasions stopped the bus and said that it will go no further if seatbelts are not worn.
Another point with regard to this is that there are no limits to the hours that people can put in with regard to driving pupils in a minibus. I refused last year to take a party to North Wales because it involved a day of work (8am to 4-20) and then to drive to North Wales (getting on for 5 hours). I said it was unsafe, the school Senior (Miss-)Management Team said it was reasonable, so I asked them to take full responsibility (in writing) for asking me to do that. They baulked at that.
You might also like to consider the type of "school-buses" that are used to transport your children to school - a local school has one "yellow bus" - American style - where all children have a designated seat and ful (not just lap-strap) belts. The other (8 or so) are mix of old, very old and patently ancient double deckers with no belts. Some kids last year actually got out of some top deck emergency windows ONTO THE ROOF of a doubledecker and were riding along on the top dancing until a motorist rang the police, reported it and it was stopped - the kids said "what's wrong? We were only having a laugh!"
--
Phil
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The seat belts in buses are often lap belts not 3 point belts as found in cars, as i understand things lap belts can cause very nasty abdominal injurys in the event of a crash as the forces are in one area only. I would not were a lap belt and rarely wear a seat belt except on the motorway.
As has been said the centre of gravity on double deckers has been specificly designed for stability and is most likely comparable to a normal coach.
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This very unfortunate accident involving a double deck type bus reminds me of similar vehicles which I used to use to travel to work on when I first moved out of London in the mid-eighties.
The service (X1) was provided by Southend Transport from Southend to Heathrow (it originally went to Reading) and used a variety of coach vehicles, but the ones that I remember most were the Van Hool Astromegas, which were a very luxurious double decker coach, air conditioned, quiet and very fast. I have been on one of these doing 100mph on the A13, I could see the speedo looking over the driver's shoulder, but they were so very stable it only felt like about 50mph! In those days people were also allowed to stand on the lower deck if all the seats on the coach were taken, I don't recall whether seat belts were fitted or not, but I don't think they were.
During the terrible winter of 1986/1987 the X1 service continued to run even after trains on the Fenchurch Street line had stopped running due to the appalling weather conditions. One freezing winters day I waited at my usual stop in Rainham for about an hour and a half really wondering whether I was going to get home at all that evening but, eventually, an X1 Astromega came along which was full but the driver was still allowing standers on. We travelled at reasonable speed along a series of frozen roads, the coach didn't slide once, which was a great to credit to both the coach and it's skilled driver. I arrived home safely about 2 hours later feeling extremely grateful.
Having been reminded of how I originally used to get to work by the recent accident, I've been searching on Google and there's even a website about the X1 service, which makes interesting reading. Some photgraphs from the time are also included.
www.sct61.org.uk/stxone.htm
Van Hool Astromega, the best "bus" I've ever travelled on!
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>I ..... rarely wear a seat belt except on the motorway.
Are you serious?
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PG, Completly. At low speeds IMO a seat belt can do a lot of damage. Besides I find them uncomfortable as I have a bad shoulder.
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Navara Van Man, obviously you're entitled to do as you please, but have you really thought through the consequences of not wearing a seatbelt? A traffic police acquaintance of mine regularly deals with road collisions and assures me that in the majority of accident scenarios the injuries you may receive from wearing your seat belt are far far less than those you're likely to receive if you're not wearing it. Motorways are reportedly the safest roads to travel on, so your motorway only theory doesn't add up.
Also, are you aware it's an endorsable offence if you're caught not wearing your belt?
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I am a School Bus Driver and take around 50 teenage youngsters to school every day. Yes, my coach exhibits a notice regarding the law and that seat belts must be worn. In some cases, a Teacher from the school boards the coach and checks that all have the belts fastened before the coach departs.
It is gauranteed that within a few seconds all the Kids have unfastened the belts and absolutely refuse to do them up. Sometimes the Kids in the front, i.e. close to me will obey and keep them fastened, especially if they experience sharp braking. Those in the body of the coach simply will not keep them fastened.
As a Driver, it is not possible to see in the mirror whether belts are used or not. I can see when kids leave their seats and can tell them to re-fasten their belts, usually with little or no long term effect.
The issue has often been raised with the school directly and also with the Council Officers responsible for school transport. They have proved to be either uninterested or ineffective in obtaining any change.
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Problem got sorted on my bus after the driver stamped on the brakes with a lot of people standing in the aisle. No injuries worse than the odd bruise and graze but people sat down after that.
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Navara van man isn't entitled to do as he pleases .
The reason we have legislation re wearing belts is that they prevent or reduce serious injury or death . If...emergency services didn't have to pick up the mess...medical staff didn't have to treat the injuries sustained..the state didnt have to support those disabled or unemployable through their injuries...the families of those injured didnt have to suffer the grief involved... and I didnt have to pay for it through my insurance premiums ...THEN I would agree he could do what he pleased.
it's like a lot of things to do with driving- speeding, pollution, for example, where your freedom affects mine.
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Navara Man... It's your choice I suppose, I guess I was just inder the impression that everyone wore seatbelts these days automatically, even without the car screaming at them like mine does now.
I got horrible whiplash from being pulled back into my seat by the belt a few years ago which I still get bother from now, but even that wouldn't stop me wearing one. It was doing it's job and stopping me headbutting the steering wheel when someone drove in the back of me.
Takes all sorts I guess. I just hope you never come flying through your windscreen at me!
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"> I have been on one of these doing 100mph on the A13, I could see the speedo looking over the driver's shoulder <"
The National Express coaches of the early 1980's would run at speeds approaching 100 mph, usually at night (timed from mile post indicator), I thought all UK coaches were now restricted.
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I once had the experince of being the only pasanger on a stage coach coach doing 95mph on the M4. These vehicles are definately capable of high speeds particularly the manual gearbox ones.
I actualy made a coment to the driver and he asured me that If he kept his foot right down for long enough especialy on down hill streaches he could reach a ton. goodnes knows what the fuel economy was like!
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Yes, this thread has reminded what a surreal experience it was, particularly in winter on a virtually deserted M11, I don't think the other passengers were aware of the speeds being reached. Needed a long run up though.
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I helped Cranfield Univerity carry out some testing on fitting laminated side windows into coaches. Having these fitted would have prevented a lot of the injures, especially the ones where amputation was the result.
I am very supprised that not one (that I've seen) report has even mentioned laminated side windows, or talked to the university that has been working on this (and many other vehicle safety projects) for a long time.
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That's interesting AR-CoolC. I had always assumed that the side and rear windows were toughened glass as they were easier to break and escape through. Many buses and coaches have windows actually labelled as emergency exits with hammers close by. Laminated would surely take an age to break through? I noticed that the escape hatches were used on the roof of the Neoplan, this is another good emergency exit feature.
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