Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
I know, I know, we have discussed this before .......

......... does a few miles per day in an average contemporary car really make much difference to the planet in the broader scheme of power generation, air travel, livestock farming, commercial air conditioning etc, and is the motorist simply a soft target for the exchequer who justify an ever increasing tax hike as the environmental cost of motoring?

Article in the DT last Thursday - 2006 will be the warmest year in the UK on record, ah global warming perhaps! So if the earth is progressively warming up perhaps the second warmest year on record was 2005, or 2004, perhaps 2003?

No it was 1959, followed by 1947 and 1976 with both 1826 and 1779 within the top 10 warmest years since records began 400 or so years ago.

Not much of a pattern emerging there it seems, however with all politicos standing (albeit rather precariously) on the top of the same environmental soap box it is apparent that the motorist is more of a sitting duck than a soft target!


Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
It has to be a myth.

Otherwise Tone and a dozen of his sidekicks wouldn't be currently swanning around the Middle East at taxpayers' expense in a Jumbo jet.

The hypocrisy beggers belief.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lounge Lizard
I'd be very interested if someone could answer the following question:

I'm not an expert on the history of climate but I do understand that there have been documented periods of climate warming and of climate cooling over the last 2000 years. For example, I think I read in a 1970s Blue Peter Annual (or something) that there have been occasions when the river Thames froze over and impromptu markets / fairs / barbeques / etc were set up on the frozen ice. I also recall other accounts of the British weather being so warm over many years that people were able to grow grapes, etc.

My question is that there is credible evidence of sustained swings in global temperature throughout history (not to mention geological evidence of similar events in prehistory); so why are current trends considered to be so exceptional?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Manatee
Somebody will always make the argument that global warming is a myth, and despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary they might even be right. However, if we're going to be wrong, then for the sake of my children, and theirs, I'd rather we work on the assumption that it is a real threat.

What does depress me is the meaningless gestures. Instead of taxing cars, and therefore travel, out of reach for the less well off, why not remove some of the obstacles to sensible transport use? I live 4 miles from a railway station, but can I get a bus there in a morning and back at night? No, nor can many daily commuters who either drive to station (parking £4.50 a day) or get their partners to drive them (18 miles driving for two return journeys).

For less than the cost of the parking at the station - let alone the train fare - I can drive to Milton Keynes, 20 miles away, and back. The chances of the whole family going on the train are slightly lower than nil.
Global warming - reality or myth? - ziggy
Somebody will always make the argument that global warming is a
myth, and despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary they
might even be right. However, if we're going to be
wrong, then for the sake of my children, and theirs, I'd
rather we work on the assumption that it is a real
threat.


This could be an equally big mistake. The costs to make even a modest reductions to CO2 output are huge, all on the basis of the less than convincing idea we can manipulate the climate with such simple levers.

I detect bad faith amongst enivironmentalists. They say hypnotised people continue to do what they are told yet all the time they know it is a lie. If the threat was as great as is claimed we would have no choice but to dash for nuclear.
Global warming - reality or myth? - boxsterboy
What does depress me is the meaningless gestures. Instead of
taxing cars, and therefore travel, out of reach for the
less well off, why not remove some of the obstacles to
sensible transport use? I live 4 miles from a railway
station, but can I get a bus there in a morning
and back at night? No, nor can many daily commuters who
either drive to station (parking £4.50 a day) or get their
partners to drive them (18 miles driving for two return journeys).
For less than the cost of the parking at the station
- let alone the train fare - I can drive to
Milton Keynes, 20 miles away, and back. The chances
of the whole family going on the train are slightly lower
than nil.


This is precisely why so many people are sceptical about global warming, having been fed countless other porky pies (WMD in Iraq, anyone?). If public transport is the answer, why are councils/rail companies allowed to charge for parking at stations, which acts as a deterent to the use of said public transport.

A car is essential for my job - I survey houses and need to carry a ladder, tool boxes, camera, binoculars, etc. etc. - but I don't need to drive to and from the office. So I used to keep a car in town, near the tube station and get the train/tube to work. Then Brent Council, in their wisdom introduced parking restrictions by all tube stations to "deter commuters". And so now I have no option but to drive all the way to and from work. I did protest to Brent at the time, and their response was along the lines of "You are exactly the kind of person we want to stop parking near stations. You should use public transport." The point of my complaint went miles above their heads - typical politicians!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
The doom merchants are conveniently ignoring a 400 period of great warmth between 1000 and 1400AD. See the following article

tinyurl.com/yc4jtf

Global warming seems to be happening but it is s*d all to do with CO2 IMHO. Just an excuse to raise money which will NOT be spent on CO2 reduction but on safari holidays for chavs and other useless schemes!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
Of course it's a myth.
The planet is stuck in hundreds or thousands of cycles of different lengths from a few hours to 5 figure years, and that's all we know about. Even if it was true, it wouldn't matter in the greater scheme of things.

e.g. www.white-history.com/hwr5b.htm
It is still unknown precisely what caused these Indo-European peoples to start migrating. Recent research indicates that the flooding of the Black Sea Basin from the Mediterranean - established as a factual occurrence around 5600 BC - was the probable cause of the first great movements, and the time scale would certainly fit.

Meltwaters from the retreating ice sheets at the end of the Pleistocene caused the world's oceans to rise by almost 100 meters. In 5600 BC, the rising waters of the Mediterranean Sea burst through the narrow neck of the Bosporus, inundating and destroying the civilization ringing the fertile Black Sea Basin. It is this catastrophe which triggered the great Indo-European migrations and spawned the Biblical legend of the flood, familiar to adherents of the Christian faith.

With the aid of the horse, the first Indo-Europeans moved in all directions, disrupting the slow but steady pace of development everywhere they went. Large numbers settled in northern Europe, staying there till they later began again to move south; others moved off to the Middle and Near East, while others ventured west, crossing into Britain and Spain. www.white-history.com/hwr5b.htm
Global warming - reality or myth? - Aprilia
Of course its all a myth. I remember that there was a drought in 1976 and we had standpipes in the street.
All those hundreds of scientists and climatologists who are trying to convince that global warming is a real threat have obviously been bribed by Tony and Gordon (and the corrupt EU parliament) so that taxes can be raised to price us all off the roads. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be stark raving bonkers...
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Meltwaters from the retreating ice sheets at the end of the
Pleistocene caused the world's oceans to rise by almost 100 meters.
In 5600 BC,


Gee I was confused for a second or two, I read that as "Maltesers from the retreating ice sheets at the end of the Pleistocene caused the world's oceans to rise by almost 100 meters"

Picture it, it's an intersting thought ;-).
Global warming - reality or myth? - Martin Devon
Pleistocene caused the world's oceans to rise by almost
100 meters"

metREs
Global warming - reality or myth? - Micky
"> tinyurl.com/yc4jtf <"

Interesting link, but then David Deming spoils it by refusing to say who the major person is:

"> A major person working in the area of climate change and global warming sent me an astonishing email that said: 'We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period.' " <"

The authorities (at all levels), multi-nationals and the medjia have always conspired to control the heaving masses. Most of the Heaving Masses consciously and sub-conciously want to be controlled. Fortunately, incompetence has always reigned at all levels, but technology could change that. However, the gross incompetence demonstrated with large IT projects gives hope for the future.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
Information on the Thames frost fairs at:

www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=other;type=wint...=

andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Papers/popethames.ht...l

earth.usc.edu/geol150/evolution/images/littleiceag...m

I've posted this information before in the forums.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - mike hannon
It just saddens me - I was in the media - to see what could be genuine concerns in their proper context become the subject of a growing and ill-informed media feeding frenzy.
In the last couple of weeks I've seen stories on French TV and in the papers that seem to be nothing but ignorant scaremongering.
Difficult to believe that in historical context it's anything more than the politicos suddenly grasping gratefully at another 'reason' to extract money from the rest of us to keep their bandwagons on a roll...
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mr.Tee.43
The real question should be,is the current trend for the increase in temperature a result of the efforts of mankind,or is this part of a long term cycle of the planet,the sun and other natural happenings that we don't understand.

It certainly suits certain peoples agenda to argue the former !

The planet was certainly hotter in the past when all that roamed the earth,were dinosaurs and other animals.

Looking at a graph of the earths past cycles,it almost looks like the earth has a heartbeat !
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
Spot on Mr Tee.

If global warming is man made like the hairshirt brigade have us believe, then to aleviate it we would have to revert to an iron age economy and life style. Fitting a lower wattage lightbulb in the loo and shutting the fridge door as quickly as we can ain't going to make a h'apenny worth of difference.

Personally, I don't worry. What will be will be.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Manatee
I am dismayed by the responses above. "You can't prove it conclusively, maybe not even when it's happened and the ice caps have ,melted, so let's ignore it".

Sure, the planet will survive, and if you're happy with that fine but don't make the decision for everybody else.

True, cutting our car CO2 is a minnow's trump in the Atlantic, when China has 500+ coal fired power stations on the stocks and opens a new one every week; but while I agree 's not a trivial matter to make a meaningful difference to CO2, I think it's irresponsible to promote the ostrich response.

How high is your house above sea level?
Global warming - reality or myth? - daveyjp
How high is your house above sea level?

According to my GPS 402ft. Good spot for a lighthouse in years to come!

The argument should shift to the fact that resources are diminishing, rather than go on about the effects of using the resources.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lounge Lizard
"I am dismayed by the responses above..."

Why on earth should you be 'dismayed' by evidence just because it's contrary to the received wisdom?

I'm more concerned by the religious devotion to the notion of man-made global-warning; anyone who dares to challenge it is labelled a 'heretic'; or is called a 'global-warming denier' in the same tone as 'holocaust denier'.

The sad thing about the global warming hoax is how much human wealth is going to be squandered on it; money that we should be spending on curing cancer and going to mars, etc.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
I am dismayed that people are dismayed at the common-sense responses on here.
I guess we'll carry on as we are taking what we need to do what we do and nothing more and you can sell your house and go and live in a mud hut and eat berries.

Here is another excellent article, with citations....
cherylsealreports.com/rapeofthearctic.html

and another which questions the 'Green's' true agenda...
www.davidicke.com/content/view/706/66/
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
www.davidicke.com/content/view/36/26/

Sorry wrong like above.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Manatee
www.davidicke.com/content/view/36/26/
Sorry wrong like above.


I have dutifully caught up. David Icke is arguing with himself - global warming is a myth, except that it isn't and Bush is accelerating it on purpose so his pals can get rich digging up the Arctic. If these are your fellow travellers I think I will retreat from any further "discussion".
Global warming - reality or myth? - Manatee
Not sure what point you're making Ashok; the source you point to does not deny global warming, rather it seems to allege (I haven't read it all - like most paranoid conspiracy theories it is not brief) that Bush is ignoring it because corporate America *wants* the ice to recede so as to exploit the Arctic ...zzzzzzzzzzzzz....

However, I wouldn't want to call on David Icke to support my arguments.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
I'm only posting the links, I didn't write them! but they contain good info and facts, whatever conclusions you draw, now back to Toyota Prius fundamentalism, abortion and population control....
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mr.Tee.43
Seems to me that the article on David Ickes website was highlighting the fact that only a few years ago, the same people who are now telling us that the earth is doomed due to global warming, were then warning of an impending ice age.

They can't have it both ways.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Xileno {P}
Very mild December. If this is global warming, then bring it on.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
That reminds me of a true story.

There's an old countryside saying in this part of the world that if you were asked who came to the door the reply, more often than not, was : "Icke from Bury."

Some decades ago we visited some friends in Bury and the husband and I went along to watch my local team play at Gigg Lane.

To my surprise someone called Icke was in goal for the home side....:-)

At least David wasn't spouting wierd logic around that time.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
all myths and conspiracies, i tell you. next thing you lot will be telling me is that:
hitler is dead
elvis is dead
princess diana is dead
president kennedy is dead
man landed on the moon.
the earth is round
the earth goes around the sun.

all lies. all lies. to begin with, galileo has got it all wrong, the earth is flat, and elvis lives next door to me and president kennedy lives opposite and has invited hitler to the flatearth society xmas party. i won't go because i know his house is balanced precariously on the edge of the earth.

so there.

Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
"Somebody will always make the argument that global warming is a myth, and despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary they might even be right."

That is the problem, there is a "mountain of evidence" but most of it is in the "dont let the facts get in the way of a good story" genre and should reside on the contemporary fiction shelf in the local library.


>>I think it's irresponsible to promote the ostrich response.>>

The ostrich practices insularism not realism, two very different things!


It is clearly a worthwhile exercise to reduce CO2 however the issue is the matter of the government using the well maintained sensible car's insignificant contribution to global CO2 as a justification for extortionate taxation.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
The myth is that there is a connection between CO2 emissions and global warming/ They both exist but there is no proven connection!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Manatee
>That is the problem, there is a "mountain of evidence" but most of it is in the "dont let the facts get in the way of a good story" genre and should reside on the >contemporary fiction shelf in the local library.

Saying that doesn't make it true.

>>It is clearly a worthwhile exercise to reduce CO2 however the issue is the matter of the government using the well maintained sensible car's insignificant >>contribution to global CO2 as a justification for extortionate taxation.

I thought the question was whether GW is a myth? However I agree that taxing cars to death is micturating in the wind (the language filter doesn't half improve your vocabulary).

Global warming - reality or myth? - none
So, if this global warming is just a cyclical thing, happening every few hundred or thousand years or so, and planet earth maintains a sort of rough equilibrium climate wise, are the oil, coal, gold, diamond and other mineral deposits going to be restored within the same time ?
I think not ! We've changed the planet's surface within the space of a couple of hundred years. To me, it seems blindingly obvious that changing just one part of a well engineered and delicate 'system' must lead to effects elsewhwere. Ok, the system might well decay or wear out in time, but we are accelerating the changes. We're affecting the earth in much the same way as a direct hit by an asteroid might do.
Eventually, the human race will die, and after millions of years planet earth will recover.
Then, one day, a tiny sabre toothed Jclarckson will be born - and it all starts again !
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
..So if the earth is progressively warming up perhaps the second warmest year on record was 2005, or
2004, perhaps 2003? No it was 1959, followed by 1947 and 1976 with both 1826 and 1779 within the top
10 warmest years since records began 400 or so years ago. ...

>>
in reply to cheddar's o.p.:

ok, to give a serious reply to cheddar's question - and let us take for granted that he is quoting the daily telegraph article correctly. :

well, the gruniad and the ft reports seem to say something different:

www.ft.com/cms/s/480df08e-8b18-11db-8940-0000779e2...l
...The top 10 warmest years have all occurred in the last 12 years. Meteorologists said the year would have been warmer still but for a cool start owing to the effects of La Niña, ....

environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,...l
... In 2004 Dr Stott and scientists at Oxford University showed that human emissions of greenhouse gases had more than doubled the risk of record-breaking heatwaves such as the one reckoned to have killed 27,000 people across Europe in 2003. The Met Office figures show that 2006 is set to be 1.37C warmer than the mean temperature logged over the four decades from 1961. The previous two hottest years, 1990 and 1999, both recorded mean temperatures of 10.63C.
All of the 10 warmest years in Britain have occurred in the past 18 years, except the fourth hottest, when in 1949 the year's mean temperature reached 10.62C.
Other figures released by the Met Office yesterday reveal that global temperatures have risen too, with 2006 on track to become the sixth warmest year since records began in 1850. The latest figures mean that the 10 warmest years ever have all occurred in the past 12 years. Some scientists already predict a warmer year in 2007, in large part because of a natural phenomenon called El Niño in the eastern Pacific, which is expected to have a profound effect on climate. ...


so what was cheddar asking?

Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
...The doom merchants are conveniently ignoring a 400 period of great warmth between 1000 and
1400AD. See the following article tinyurl.com/yc4jtf

>>

in reply to armitage shanks:
the tinyurl link given by armitage leads to this article
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...l
which is " By Christopher Monckton, Sunday Telegraph" a former adviser to margaret thatcher.

my question to armitage
(also posed here before: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=46...2 )

is this chris monckton not the same man who in 1999 invented "the eternity puzzle" with a one-million pound prize.
it was " estimated that a normal household computer going through every single possible combination would need 130 million billion years to solve the problem".
apparently, in less than one year, the first solution to the puzzle " was found by Alex Selby and Oliver Riordan on May 15, 2000."
prediction 130 million billion years to solve the puzzle, reality one year !!
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
Interesting last sentence - "Some scientists already predict a warmer year in 2007, in large part because of a natural phenomenon called El Niño in the eastern Pacific, which is expected to have a profound effect on climate. ..."

So, nowt to do with me driving my car then?

Also interesting that you quote the Grauniad - I presume their view is totally unbiassed (as opposed to the Telegraph)?

Also interesting that "The Met Office figures show that 2006 is set to be 1.37C warmer than the mean temperature logged over the four decades from 1961" yet the IPCC say that global temps have only increased by 0.6 deg since 1880 - so 2006 has been a warm year but is one year enough to base a whole hypothesis on?

Trouble is, that all these figures/quotes can be "counter quoted" depending on where you go for figures. There was an article last week (Times? Telegraph?) showing that 2006 was the "warmest summer" for 300 years, mainly because of one month - July - and by a whole 0.42 degrees. Personal memories of this year include a very late and cold spring, my tomatoes planted out later than ever before, a very hot July, and August which was cold at times and characterised by persistant North winds which made evenings very cool, nice September and mild autumn.

"All of the 10 warmest years in Britain have occurred in the past 18 years"

Really?? Here are the top 15 hottest years from another source
2006 (odd that since year still has a couple of weeks to go), 1959, 1995, 1949, 1947, 1826, 1976, 1779, 2005, 2003, 1781, 1933, 1727, 1865, 1798. I make that 4 in the last 18 years, just a bit "worse " than 3 in 19years 1779 - 98.

Also, since when has climate been measured over 18 years? I thought the definition incuded the words "many years" and from school (a long time ago admittedly!) I seem to remember being told that it was measured over a minimum of 50 to 100 years.

It is typical of the media that last week the BBC news had film of the lack of snow in St Anton, Austria saying that this was due to global warming and, to show the impact, showed film of the deep snow there LAST YEAR - oh yeah, global warming has had that effect in ONE YEAR?

Anyway, the Q is not really about whether it is taking place, but whether we can do anything about it, and, quite frankly the answer I feel is no, and certainly not by taxing motorists an extra few pence per litre.

I think it is very arrogant of these people to suggest that man can have much effect on Global climate - do they really think that man could do anything to heat the oceans? Few gallons of water there to warm up? Even more arrogant is the suggestion that the 60 million people in UK could possibly have any effect. Let's face it, what proportion of the world's pop have even heard of global warming? What proportion give a damn about it? We should set an example?? Perhaps, but it's about as much use as me teaching my kids good manners in the hope that they will pass that on sucessfully to all of Britain's teenagers.
Whether it is happening or not, taxing cars will have NO effect on global warming.
And while I'm having a right good rant (no offence meant ) why should Monckton be less of an authority than other media types? As well as his first article in Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...7
he wrote a follow up one quoting his sources (it's a 40 page pdf doc)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/05/warm-...f.
What are Monbiot's (of the Grauniad) qualifications? Isn't he an architect - I'm sure I could find something that he designed that is so bad it would destroy the credibility of all his articles about global warming.
Happy Christmas, don't forget to turn down that central heating over the holiday, and forget the Christmas lights/decorations - every little helps you know!!


--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
so what was cheddar asking?



I was quoting UK figures Dalglish, the FT article for one is global so more relevant though only IF accurate.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Professor of Biogeography at the University of London, Philip Stott, quote:

'In the UK, it is a media myth that there are only a few scientists who disagree with the view of 'global warming' on which the Kyoto Protocol is predicated. ..........

............. climate is one of the most complex systems known, yet we claim we can manage it by trying to control a small set of factors, namely greenhouse gas emissions.'

Global warming - reality or myth? - nick
I'm busy wrapping myself in cotton wool for health and safety reasons. Does this mean I'm going to be too hot? What should I do?
Global warming - reality or myth? - moonshine
What we know to be true:

All the best scientists in the world (those not funded by oil companies) agree that the planet is getting warmer. It's a fact, it's proven and you can't argue against it.

What we dont know:

If the warming is cuased by our activities or part of a natural cycle
What the impact of warming will be (we have a few ideas though)


There are other considerations that should be made here - security. We are very dependant on others for a our energy. Any reduction in our CO2 also reduces our dependance on others.

Also, you don't have to give up cars and live in a cave to make a difference. I heard an interesting term the other day, I think it was called 'micro green'. The idea is that you can make a difference and still have a modern lifestyle.

Too many people on here cite websites and say "it must be true because I read it on this website, here's the link". There are plenty of websites that say Elvis is alive....
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
"What we know to be true:
All the best scientists in the world (those not funded by oil companies) agree that the planet is getting warmer. It's a fact, it's proven and you can't argue against it."

No they don't. In a world of universal deceit they still don't.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
"No they don't. In a world of universal deceit they still don't."

Well I'm not a climate scientist. I read Munckton (sp?) but frankly he's not a credible source - having his own agenda (financial).

BUT
Winters here are getting warmer. Personal experience. It's a FACT..

Anyone who is not a complete muppet can see it with their own eyes.

Will it last? I don't know.
What causes it?
I don't know.

But all I do know is we have been burning fossil fuels - ie. accumulated energy for sunlight eons ago at an acclerated rate for the past 150 years.

Never mind: to some extent that will be self regulating as , of course, it's obvious supplies are finite.

Oh I forget. Many of the people who deny supplies are finite also deny global warming. I don't know why and what their agenda is.. but I could guess...
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
... Whether it is happening or not, taxing cars will have NO effect on global warming...


in reply to philw -

in my previous comments on this subject, i have said exactly the same thing. even terrorists were to blast the uk out of existence, there will be no impact on the course of climate change.

as for philw's point about quotes and conter-quotes, again that was exactly what i was highlighting. you can find sources on the internet to say exactly the opposite of what someone else claims as "fact". my point is that it is up to every individual to research the subject to their own personal satisfaction and then be happy with the opinion or conclusion they come to.

whether due to global warming, or china's thirst for oil, or uk politicians trying to cure the ills of the world, it seems likely that one day soon our ability to enjoy motoring will be severely curtailed. we are doomed, doomed, doomed. accept that we can't really do anything to change any of these scenarios.
in the meantime, be positive, don't worry, and forget the doom and gloom merchants.
as i have said many times before, enjoy your lives to the full and carry on happy motoring.

Global warming - reality or myth? - boxsterboy
My personal view on this is that we should reduce our use of oil because it is a finite resource, not because of global warming.

If we continue to leave empty office lights on all night and make unecessary journeys in any gas guzzling cars (4x4 or otherwise driven ... ) someone will have to invent an alternative to oil pretty sharpish for our kids sake.
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
The hottest British summer I can remember was in 1976 ~ 15 consecutive days with temperatures above 32 degC. In view of that I am unconvinced that our climate is getting hotter in the long term.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
I think your short-term memory is going since in fact this summer past (2006) was the hottest*. At least according to this bunch of conspiracists:

"Warmest ever April to October having a mean temperature of 14.6 °C"

www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2006/pr...l

*I'm drawing no conclusion from that at all.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Of course that word should have been "conspirators". The lack of edit button here is ridiculous.
Global warming - reality or myth? - BazzaBear {P}
The lack of
edit button here is ridiculous.

Oh, I dunno. I quite like the sound of the word conspiracists. I may add it to my vocabulary.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Oh, I dunno. I quite like the sound of the
word conspiracists. I may add it to my vocabulary.


You're welcome. Since it's Christmas there's no charge.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Cliff Pope
Of course that word should have been "conspirators".


Surely "conspiracists" are people who believe in the theory that it is all a conspiracy. Not the same thing as the conspirators themselves, who of course know that it is.
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
I think your short-term memory is going .............


I sometimes go from one room to another and can't remember why I've gone there!
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
As long as you can remember the way back you'll be fine. Leave a trail of rice or something.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
The graphs of the %age increase of CO2 in the atmosphere since 1985 may well exactly match the %age increase of men over 60 dying of lung cancer over the same period, for example, The fact that the graphs look similar is not a reason for concluding that there is a connection between them. As someone else has pointed out, we are seeing the interaction of a number of weather cycles of differing frequency and some of them have peaked together and not for the first time. The Government is giving this plenty of spin! In the same way that money notionally collected for the contruction and maintenance of roads and a public transport system is spent on Domes and vast duff computer systems, the money being collected as a surcharge on airfares will be spent subbing the Olympic village and facilities and MP's obscene pensions.
Global warming - reality or myth? - DP
I'm still a fence sitter.

Too many vested interests on both sides of the debate (oil companies behind the dissenters and revenue hungry governments behind the supporters). No proper discussion, just a lot of name calling, mud slinging and guilt trips. Can't even be bothered to work out who's right. Leave them to it!

Current technology dictates that the energy powering my car, central heating and lighting comes from fossil fuels. Give me an alternative and I'll use it. Until then, frankly I'm not interested. I need to get to work, I need light at night, and I need to heat my home.

Cheers
DP
Global warming - reality or myth? - hxj

Some facts:

1. The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing

2. CO2 in the atmosphere acts as a blanket, reducing the radiation from the Earth out into space.

What no one has demonstrated yet is what definite effect if any this will have on overall global temperatures.

I remember discussing these issues with a professor of chemistry about 25 years ago whose specialism was atmospheric chemistry. At the time he was more concerned about the role of chloro-fluro-carbons on the ozone layer. He thought that that was an easier problem to solve, and mainly has been, as the chemistry and damage were easier to demonstrate.

A man ahead of his time, or a hopeless dreamer, I'm not sure yet.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Waino
A man ahead of his time, or a hopeless dreamer, I'm not sure yet.>>


A man ahead of his time, I suggest.

Hands up ... how many Backroomers have bothered to go and see 'An Inconvenient Truth'?

I have, and the evidence for CO2 driven global warming is very, very strong. After spending 30 years in the pesticide industry, I can hardly be classed as a loony green.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Civic8
IMO, the earth will carry on doing what its doing regardless of what we do,and certainly wont be affected by the motors we drive or fuel used.

So I think its a myth
--
Steve
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"What no one has demonstrated yet is what definite effect if any this will have on overall global temperatures"

Or whether, as some research has suggested, the increasing levels of CO2 are a RESULT of increased temps!! (Just throw another spanner in the works!)
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lounge Lizard
"2. CO2 in the atmosphere acts as a blanket, reducing the radiation from the Earth out into space."

Can you give a mechanistic explanation for this, hxj?

Global warming - reality or myth? - Mr.Tee.43
Seems to me that the biggest producers of CO2 on the planet are PEOPLE in the form of expelled air.

More people,more CO2

Simple.

What are we going to do about that !

What did they use on Apollo 13, Lithium Hydroxide canisters ?
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
Good source for info on CO2/Greenhouse effect/global warming etc is
www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/cause.htm
www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/
www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/guide.htm

--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
We might end up being more affected by worrying about what we're (some say) doing to the earth than the benefit that might come from our concerns. Next year there will probably be something else to worry about. Chill out and let the earth take care of itself, which I'm sure it will do anyway. We're just minute specks in the general scheme of things.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Morgie
The problem is there is so much claim and counter claim, not to mention media hype it really is difficult who to believe. The last article I read a week or so ago said that cows were a greater contributor to the green house effect than cars due the amount of methane they produce as a by product of eating grass. Are we going to slap green taxes on farmers?
Global warming - reality or myth? - hxj

It works something like this:

Mainly visible sunlight hits the Earth's surface and is radiated back into space mainly as IR.

The Earth is at an equilibrium whereby the energy gained from the sun is balanced with the energy radiated into space.

Visible light is not absorbed by CO2, but IR is. CO2 also gives out energy by way of IR radiation.

The higher in the atmosphere the CO2 is the cooler it is and it is less efficient at giving off energy.

So if you increase the concentration of CO2 you have no impact on the light energy hitting the surface.

However more of the energy being irradiated from the Earth is absorbed by the CO2.

This increases the temperature of the atmosphere and therefore the planet.

The energy takes longer to pass through the atmosphere due to the increased amounts of absorption and re-radiation. So whilst you eventually get increased radiation due to higher temperatures you have more energy stored in the system and hence higher temperatures.

The temperature rises as the Earth moves to a new equilibrium level.


Incidentally with no CO2 in the atmosphere the Earth would be uninhabitable, and life could not have evolved.


Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
The Earth is at an equilibrium whereby the energy gained from
the sun is balanced with the energy radiated into space.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the core of the earth was getting cooler all the time.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - mjm
And the amount of energy hitting the earth is non-constant, the sun is not a constant heat source. Some commentators (or experts, depending upon how much faith you have in them) say that sun spot activity has increased lately on this is causing climate change (global warming)
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lounge Lizard
In reply to hxj:

OK, that's a mechanistic explanation.

However, why won't the phenomenon you describe cause global-cooling rather than global-warming?

Surely the effect happens even more to energy reaching the earth from the sun for the first time? In other words, IR energy travels from the sun and hits the earth atmosphere BUT because of increased CO2 levels more of it gets 'reflected' back into space?

So although what IR energy gets through might be retained a bit more; surely this will be more than matched by what is prevented from reaching us in the first place?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Number_Cruncher
>>However, why won't the phenomenon you describe cause global-cooling rather than global-warming?

Because the incoming radiation is visible - not IR. In broad terms this is because the body doing the radiating (i.e., the Sun) is very hot. CO2 doesn't absorb this visible radiation significantly.

As the earth is much cooler, the heat energy it radiates is IR. CO2 does absorb IR.

Number_Cruncher
Global warming - reality or myth? - Cliff Pope
It's interesting to observe that greenhouses themselves are not heated by the "greenhouse effect". Greenhouses work primarily by preventing convection; the greenhouse effect however reduces radiation loss, not convection.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lounge Lizard
How does the earth convert visible light energy to IR light energy, can you give another mechanistic explanation please?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Number_Cruncher
>>How does the earth convert visible light energy...

I don't know about being mechanistic, but here's a good explanation.

www.npl.co.uk/thermal/stuff/guide4.html

Number_Cruncher
Global warming - reality or myth? - Spospe
Perhaps BR's would like to read about the BBC sponsored Climate Change program and see for yourselves what is thought to be going on. This program is an example of distributed computing, where thousands of individual computers mimic one huge machine.

Take a look at: www.bbc.co.uk/sn/hottopics/climatechange/

to see the full story to date.

Seasons Greetings to all ........
Global warming - reality or myth? - Vansboy
While we were in Las Vegas last week, watching their version of 'Do Up Your House & Make It Worth More', on e of the comments made was that the guys home was never less than 55degrees - else he'd have to 'live like them Europeans & freeze''

Motoring link, too - I caught a glmpse of the tail fins of an early 60's Impala, in one of the shots, mentioned it to Mrs V - thougfht that would be the endd of it, till... at the end of the prog, they panned the camera onto the road, the car, actually a pick-up, had been re-built & painted too!! The guy was going to try Route 66 for it's first run!!

& yes climate change exists, 'cos that's what the planet does - to think we'll make much dufference, is the myth. Just going to put the recycling bag out now, we;ll have a 10ton refuse vehicle pumping its diesel fumes into the air, to pick it up, shortly.
VB
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
Yes, and then your waste will probably be shipped to China on the The Xin Los Angeles container ship, that's just dumped 9200 containers of cheap Chinese Christmas tack here, and is going back to China full of the only thing we export these days which is refuse.
So how me driving to work matters and this doesn't I fail to see.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Martin Devon
Then, one day, a tiny sabre toothed Jclarckson will be born
- and it all starts again !

Zackly!

MD
Global warming - reality or myth? - milkyjoe
global warming is not a myth, it happened before in 1976,its true it showed you a bloke frying an egg on the bonnet of a car...really!
Global warming - reality or myth? - lakelad
Anybody who doubts the reality of global warning should see Al Gore's film An Inconvenient Truth. It is serious and entertaining. As well as facts and figures it includes video and comparitive photograhs of the ice caps and glaciers. It is totally convincing and the DVD is now available from Amazon. The planet is going to hell in a handcart and the major nations need to wake up.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Civic8
>>The planet is going to hell in a handcart and the major nations need to wake up.

Not going to hell,rather doing its own thing as its done for millions of years,and will carry on doing so with or without us on it
--
Steve
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Anybody who doubts the reality of global warning should see Al
Gore's film >>


As I said in the opening post "with all politicos standing (albeit rather precariously) on the top of the same environmental soap box".


>>As well as facts and figures


Facts according to who, Al Gore?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Waino
We've had the 'flat earthers', the holocaust deniers - and now we have the global warming ostriches. Ignorance is bliss.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
and now we have the global warming ostriches. Ignorance is bliss.



As I also said above " The ostrich practices insularism not realism, two very different things!"
Global warming - reality or myth? - AndyT
"and now we have the global warming ostriches"


I don't think people on here are in denial about global warming, rather the effects (or not) of mankind on it, and whether we can make any difference.
The planet has always been going through cycles of changes.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
According to some Friend of The Earth being interviewed on the news tonight, 150,000 people are already dying each year from the effects global warming. As usual the interviewer just gave a sympathetic nod of the head to this "fact".

It's those sort of unchallanged think-of-a-number-and-double-it statistics that make us head in the sand ostriches think the whole thing is baloney, from the same type of people who predicted we would be wiped out by aids or CJD by now.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"150,000 people are already dying each year from the effects global warming."

Probably about as accurate as the following figures gleaned from various articles (FAO, New Staesman, BBC etc)

"Every year 15 million children die of hunger"
"Every year, about 6.5 million children under the age of five die because hunger leaves their bodies too weak to resist disease."
"On average, every five seconds a child dies from starvation.[1]
"Using a computer model named IMPACT, Mark Rosegrant and colleagues predicted that 132 million children will face starvation in 2020 if current government policies do not change."
"178 million children are calculated to
starve in 2020."
"Over 4 million will die this year." (from starvation)

Even the lowest figure makes the global warming figure pale into insignificance.Let alone

"2.3 million children, 2 million of them in Africa, are infected with HIV, and 500,000 of them are likely to die next year. Worldwide deaths from AIDS hit 2.8 million last year, "

"According to the WHO, there are at least 300 million cases of malaria annually in the world, resulting in about 2 million deaths."

Priorities????? Is global warming "the greatest threat facing mankind "







--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - milkyjoe
Phil


i imagine all the gas coming off these rotting corpses cant help much .....lime pits could be the answer?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Waino
Sorry, Robin, I've already explained that 30 years in the pesticide industry have ensured that I am not a green loony.

And, yes, we would be well on the way to being wiped out by AIDs and CJD by now - except that we recognised the problem - and did something about it.


Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
Waino,

54 years watching country after country tooling up with nuclear weapons have drawn me to the conclusion that the type of global warming that will see the demise of the human race will not be caused by the exhaust fumes from my Mondeo.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Waino
54 years watching country after country tooling up with nuclear weapons
have drawn me to the conclusion that the type of global
warming that will see the demise of the human race will
not be caused by the exhaust fumes from my Mondeo. >>


Ah, the threat of nuclear annihilation ..... always a splendid reason for staying in bed ;-)
Global warming - reality or myth? - mick1999
As people keep going on about increased CO2 levels, does anyone actually have a %figure for this increase, also are we not still coming out of the last ice age,
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"Carbon dioxide has been increased to about 0.038% of the atmosphere (possibly from about 0.028% pre-Industrial Revolution). Humans can only claim responsibility for abut 3.4% of carbon dioxide emitted to the atmosphere annually."

"If "ice age" is used to refer to long, generally cool, intervals during which glaciers advance and retreat, we are still in one today. Our modern climate represents a very short, warm period between glacial advances."

--
Phil
Global warming Yes - Cause unknown! - Armitage Shanks {p}
Channel 4 - 9pm Thursday 8th March. "An intruiging documentary providing compelling evidence that this theory is based on speculation dressed up as science or even straight lies by what has become the global warming industry" - "dramatic temperature swings were commonplace well before the burning of fossil fuels". Might be worth having a look, just to hear another side of the argument/discussion.
Global warming Yes - Cause unknown! - Theunisse
It's been a mild winter - nothing out of the ordinary (read Samuel Peyps Diaries) but if 150 000 a year are dying as a result (not quite sure how and why), how many are staying alive as a result of winters being milder. I know that my father has a deep reluctance to put on the heating and many of his age group are the same. It doesn't make good headlines, however, to broadcast that, say 20 000 people didn't die this winter because of "global warming".
By the way, the sun is terrifically active at the moment and from past records of sun spot activity, it seems that it is as active as it has been for many hundreds of years - may have a bearing on the temperature.
Global warming Yes - Cause unknown! - Stuartli
>>but if 150 000 a year are dying as a result (not quite sure how and why)>>

A good cold snap early on in winter helps to kill off many bugs and other nasties....

Incidentally, we've just been told that we've enjoyed the warmest winter since weather records began hundreds of years ago.

The second warmest? Back in the Victorian era.

Not much evidence of global warming around at that particular time and there weren't all that many 4x4s, diesel engined buses, trucks or cars on our roads either.......
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming Yes - Cause unknown! - PhilW
"(In January) the monthly average soared to 42.62F (5.9C), just a fraction off the 1916 record of 43.34F (6.3C)". (met Office figures)

--
Phil
Global warming Yes - Cause unknown! - Stuartli
According to this link it was 1868-69:

tinyurl.com/26assu

(44.2 degrees F).

Also states 1833-34 and 1988-89 were equally as mild as this winter.

No global warming pattern there it would appear....:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
I'm looking forward to watching The Great Global Warming Swindle ~ Channel 4 on Thursday 8th March, 21:00 to 22:35 ~ tinyurl.com/2kgz79
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
"New data of sea-level heights from early February 2007, by the Jason satellite show that the tropical Pacific Ocean has transitioned from a warm (El Niño) to a cool (La Niña) condition during the prior two months"

www.jpl.nasa.gov/earth/


Cooler though unfortunatley also drier, though not global warming?
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
One word sums this all up:

GREENLAND


Q. Why did the Vikings live a prosperous farming life on Greenland?

A. Because it was warmer there then than it is today.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mazda-Man
Jury's still out for me..... but I'd rather err on the side of caution and take sensible environmental measures now than find out too late.
Global warming - reality or myth? - tyro
Jury's still out for me..... but I'd rather err on the
side of caution and take sensible environmental measures now than find
out too late.


I'm inclined to agree with you, Mazda-Man.

My concern is that if the current global warming is caused by human activity, it will be well nigh practically impossible to reduce global production of greenhouse gases enough to make any significant difference.
Global warming - reality or myth? - daveyjp
Channel 4 Dispatches now - about misleading Government claims on greenhouse gases etc.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mapmaker
Mr T wrote>>>Looking at a graph of the earths past cycles,it almost looks like the earth has a heartbeat !

Indeed it 'does'. Many many years ago, a chap called Milankovitch developed a climate model. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles He noticed that whilst the earth goes round the sun in a fairly constant fashion (every 365 days), the earth is tilted - which gives us our seasons. The axis of the tilt of the earth, compared to the axis of our tilt of rotation around the sun changes over time. As do similar other such variables. Add the changes together and you come up with a reasonable description of the earth's climate over many tens or hundreds of thousands of years.

This theory is very convincingly the cause of Ice Ages.

So WHEN IS THE NEXT ICE AGE DUE?

A couple of thousand years AGO. Micturate into the wind as much as you like. Bovine scatalogical investigations likewise. But we are overdue an ice age by a couple of thousand years. Thank GOD for the global warming effect of greenhouse gases which are the only thing between us and an ice sheet across the UK.

WHEN WAS THE LAST ICE AGE?

Does anybody realise that it was only some 10,000 years ago. Go to the British Museum Relics of ancient "civilisations" from 5,000 years ago are in that museum. Modern humans are insignificant in the timescale of the earth and in terms of geological power.

Will we ever know if the current warming (which is definitely true) is aresult of human activity? Probably never.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
Dispatches on Gov't calims to reduce greenhouse gases.. "don't do as I do, do as I say".

Nothing new then.

On Tony Blair's comments: vacuous .


Nothing new then.



madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Jury's still out for me..... but I'd rather err on the
side of caution and take sensible environmental measures now than find
out too late. >>



Oh, I agree, however what constitutes a sensible environmental measure? For instance the poular belief is that trading in a gas guzzling V8 for a hybrid or small diesel is a sensible measure though in truth it is better to continue to run the V8 because of the impact of the manufacture of the hybrid / diesel.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
I notice that nobody's mention the drastic tree felling of the Amazon and other giant rain forests yet.

Left to her own devices, Mother Nature will maintain the Planet. It's the disturbance of that balance that causes many of the problems.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
Fear = power.
Man has nothing to fear, but fear itself.
Gods, governments, parents everyone uses fear for power and control.
This is why the government churns out this daily dose of fear.
Fear is the only thing which stops people reaching their full potential.
It is worse than danger.
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
So WHEN IS THE NEXT ICE AGE DUE?
A couple of thousand years AGO.
WHEN WAS THE LAST ICE AGE?
Does anybody realise that it was only some 10,000 years ago





I think technically we are still in an Ice Age albeit coming out of it.

I would say that I am ntot quite sure what qualifies for an ice age, but as there are ice sheets at both poles some consider that we are still in an ice age. The governments around the world seem to tell us that these ice caps have always been there and have always been bigger than they are today. I have been led to believe that when we are well and truly out of an ice age there are no ice sheets over the poles (or at least very small ones).
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
............ I'd rather err on the
side of caution and take sensible environmental measures now than find
out too late.


Anything you do, or don't do, won't be noticeable in your lifetime.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
>>Anything you do, or don't do, won't be noticeable in your lifetime.>>

Precisely.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mazda-Man
Probably not but then I'm not solely interested in prolonging my existence.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Up until the Industrial Revolution, humans had had very little impact on the environment - there were a lot less of us and there were no machines. The environment dictated what we did and could do.

So, any weather reports from before this time are not exactly comparing like with like.

We all know that planet earth is an unpredicatble place and is quite capable of bowling googlies (?) of its own making at us - ice ages and all of that , 1976 heatwave etc etc - all of these things happened before humans had any environmental influence and there is no reason to imagine they won't continue today

In other words - planet earth will always go along in its own sweet way - whatever

Since the late 1800s though we humans have started to do a lot more mechanised thing, a hell of a lot more combusting and by golly there's a hell of a lot more of us!

To imagine that all of this 'change' (regardless of what the planet itself is doing independently) has 'zero' effect seems daft to me.

All the gunk that's been pumped out of engines for the last 150 years has certainly depleted certain resources - it has changed those elements into something else (all that smoke certainly affects breathing - what else could it change - try and go plants behind your exhaust pipe) and all within an enclosed space (the atmosphere).

Separate natural occurences - all previous heatwaves and weather variations and just think about what we as humans do in isolation.

We don't know what the long term effects will be - but think - cause and effect - it will do 'something'.


We have to separate our views on what would happen anyway in nature - there could be another heatwave or ice age - and what will only happen as a direct result of human intervention.

What we do does matter - we know putting chemicals that we make in water can kill things - we know what the bombs we've made do - we don't know yet what all the engines we run do - they will do something - cause and effect!

Is it likely to be bad? Live near congested streets for a while and the effects on health are marked - what does that mean? I'm not even talking about melting ice caps and homeless polar bears - this is what happens on your street -

In my darker moments I can't help but feel there's a 'baby boomer' aspect to this - some of them have done so much good and moved the world on a thousand years in the space of a hundred but the vast majority just eat relentlessly and with no regard for the future -the generation that had it all- still want more but don't take responsibility for anything or believe that anything is their fault - leave it all for the rest of us to clean up while we're paying for them to live forever with dementia - god bless 'em


Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
surely the more CO2 we pump out the more plants grow and the more O2 they produce.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
In the 1600s there used to be Ice Fairs on the Thames because the river used to freeze up regularly in the winter...:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
In the 1600s there used to be Ice Fairs on the
Thames because the river used to freeze up regularly in the
winter...:-)


copied from www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/shindell_07/
The late 17th century was one of the coldest parts of the period known as the "Little Ice Age", when hemispheric average temperatures dropped by a few tenths of a degree. Both reduced solar output and numerous large volcanic eruptions could have contributed to the hemisphere-wide cooling. Regional changes were much larger, however. Europe and eastern North America, for example, were unusually cold, while some other areas appear to have been relatively warm.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dipstick
That's because the bridges were narrower and so the flow of water was impeded, allowing freezing. When the arches were made wider to accommodate bigger shipping, the flow rate increased and so the ice doesn't form so easily.

Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
Dipstick is that true or conjecture? What about the Bernoulli Effect
Global warming - reality or myth? - No FM2R
I don't know about global warming. My instinct is to disagree with the type of people who typically bang on about it, but I'm not really sure whether it exists, is an issue, or can be affected.. Even if so, I have some sympathy for the point of view that Clarkson put forward on Sunday (in person, not on the television) - "tell me one bad thing about global warming that I should care about!".

However, a lot for the things that are gone on about in the name of global warming quite appeal to me of late from a lifestyle point of view;

Train to London rather than driving is so much less stress
Driving small cars slower in town is mroe pleasant
Slower cars are nicer when I'm wandering around with the kids and don't want things blasting past my ear
Having to take an hour slowly walkign across town with the family rather than blasting across in the car and then fighting for parking

etc. etc. etc.

All in all I think I might be having a "lifestyle" moment; so whilst I think Livingstone is an ass, his reasoning stinks, and he's a lying git, the things he's trying to achieve might actually be beginning to appeal to me.

We're all going to die, if you are non-religious, as I am, then the only thing you can affect is the quality of the journey to that death. Driving my car at all costs, sitting in traffic jams, driving at 60mph because its my right, roadrage, traffic jams, stress, frustration, etc. etc. are not things which improve my journey. Whereas moving slower, taking time out, spending time enjoying what I'm doing rather than just trying to do it as fast as possible, these things may well improve my lot.

So, I'm going to stop worrying about their measures. If they want to ban my car from London, then they may do so. In the short term public transport will be an issue, but it will all resolve over time as trains, buses and what-not are put in place, or if not as people I work for accept that stuff takes longer and longer. If they want to eventually ban my car because its not green, I think I shall live with that on the basis that it would improve my lot, pretty much as stopping smoking has.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
I'm an agnostic on global warming.

But when I see politicians actually doing what they prattle on about - as opposed to saying one thing.. and doing another - I'll believe it.

Whatever I think about Ken Livingstone (I don't really care not living in the South of England) he does soemthing and largely practises what he preaches.

With Balir and Co flying round the world , using ministerial cars like petrol was 1p per litre and only now putting energy saving lightbulbs in their offices... and owning 6 (?) houses - like Michael Meacher - I switch off when politicians talk cos it's all cow excrement.
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
I don't know anything about the Thames freezing over, or how many mini ice ages we've had, or how many tropical summers we've had - all since records began. Boys love spouting 'facts' - don't they?

But, if you're going to use those events as an example of why freak weather events are not connected to "global warming" then you have to acknowledge that there could be new, different, unique, weather events that might be connected to mass consumerism.

Mass consumerism is a more appropriate term than 'global warming' as 'global warming" (if it exists) is only a symptom of mass consumerism.

Mass consumerism has never existed in the past as it does today.

If it makes people feel better about driving to believe that what they are doing has no effect on anything else - well that's a bit strange.

Without even thinking about where all the metals and plastics in the world come from, if we want oil, we start by digging a hole, - immediately we have 'change' - what will be the end result of that change?

Do I care? Do I not care? Why do i exist? Why do I have children?

I drive therefore I am? My wheels revolve around me and the world is a mere function of me and my car.

I know this is a motoring forum ... but come on guys... keep up!!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
Basically carbon in the form of oil, gas and coal were sealed in to the Earth over millions and millions of years. And over the space of a few decades we are releasing it all back in to the atmosphere. The layman might wonder if there will be consequences of such a rapid release of CO2. The scientists tell us that the consequences will be severe and will include rising sea levels and possibly even changes in deep sea current. So quite a bit of land might end up submerged.

By the way there are other theories for the ice age cycle. A recent theory is based on solar activity, and it explains the two cycle nature of ice ages, which the current theory has trouble with.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Niallster
Got to admit the sheer hypocrisy of idiots like Bonio or the mentally challenged Cameron Diaz who preach the green agenda whilst circling the planet in their private jets is amazing but the all time winner is:

The Goracle. Al Gore to the uninitiated.

His mega mansion uses 20 times the average level of energy use of homes in the US but thats OK because he buys carbon offset credits...

FROM HIMSELF

(he part owns the company he buys them from)

Just jaw dropping...
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
>Niallster

If you (or anyone else) believes anything a politician says (on anything), then imo you need a reality check.

When I hear one speak, my first thoughts are:"He/she is lying. Why?" and go from there. Sometimes they tell the truth...
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
I know everybody here is car mental but...... I'm no scientist, or politician...

It stands to reason....run a car in an enclosed space long enough and if you're in there with it you'll die -

so, what happens when you run millions of cars in an enclosed atmosphere?

I'm not looking for 'boy' 'facts' here - speak common sense - of course it is blindingly obviously not healthy..

And it's only going to get worse -

What is it about this that people don't understand?
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
and the "enclosed space" Jemima is referring to is?

Cos I sure as .... don't understand her post.
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
The ahem...atmosphere?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
The atmosphere is in no way 'enclosed'. Where are the boundaries? If one flies to the moon ones goes through the atmosphere until it diminishes to nothing = a vacuum, but one doesn't pass thru any 'boundaries' on the way!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
The atmosphere is in no way 'enclosed'. Where are the
boundaries? If one flies to the moon ones goes through the
atmosphere until it diminishes to nothing = a vacuum, but one
doesn't pass thru any 'boundaries' on the way!



I think we know what was meant. The atmosphere is effectively finite. And space scientists do define an altitude where the atmosphere effectively ends and space begins.
Global warming - reality or myth? - nortones2
Did you pen the above FM2R? If you did, hear, hear. Just checking....
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
No, I did. AS
Global warming - reality or myth? - sirdave
It's all the cave mans fault, lighting all those fires on the glaciers to cook a woolly mammoth, must have gone down hill since then. Mind you I wonder what cars that lot drove, fred flintstone had a flashy motor.

wonder if anyone collected any ransome money from them
Global warming - reality or myth? - Kiwi Gary
I venture to suggest that we are all barking up the wrong tree, and that carbon dioxide is just a convenient whipping boy to beat us into submission. Greenhouse works by reflecting back some of the heat hitting it. Some passes through. That is why we don't fry during the day, or freeeze during the night. If there were no greenhouse around the earth, then there would be nothing to save us from the sun's heat, and nothing to reflect Earth's heat back to us during the night. Heat, I suggest, is the matter that should be at the top of the climate change agenda.

IF global warming is a disaster in the making { of which I am a sceptic }, then we can have all the electric / fuel cell / bio-fuel vehicles we like, they all produce heat which has to escape into "outer space" via the greenhouse, as does the heat from anything else that requires or produces energy. IF we have a problem, then the only answer is to go back to the caves, but, Sirdave, I understand that woolly mammoths are a bit rare now.

Now, if only Blair, Gore, and our own Dear Leader Clark could get together and repeal the second law of thermodynamics .............. !!!
Global warming - reality or myth? - No FM2R
>>Did you pen the above FM2R?

If you mean the stuff about lifestyle, then yes I did.

Its ironic, the boring gits who rattle on about how offensive smoking is and how it should be banned certainly delayed me giving up smoking and almost stopped me giving up all together.

Now similar tedious zealots rattling on about global warming and how all cars should be banned almost make me determined not to care about global warming.

I'm bothered by people whose enthusiasm always involves not only banning stuff that other people do, but also seems to make seeming smug with a know-it-all and condescending superior attitude almost compulsory.

That to one side, there are increasingly aspects of not using a car, not driving fast, etc. etc. which I find attractive. Mostly, I think, based around trying to enjoy what I do, rather than simply trying to do it as fast as possible. Working 15 hours a day and tearing around the countryside from meeting to meeting is not virtuous, but we seem to see it as so; and to some extent compulsory. Circumstances which lead me to slow down, either because I cannot use my car, the public transport service has improved, or simply because various employers? expectations have reduced seem like an attractive end result.

I was wandering down a country road the other day with the children and dogs, and cars were going past at 60mph or so making it pretty unpleasant. They weren't breaking the law, the road is pretty straight with no residential places or turnings, so there is no reason to ban people from doing so or reducing the speed limit, nor would I support such a move. However, it does seem a shame and perhaps missing the point that that is how we *want* to live.

So I keep returning to the phrase ?trying to enjoy what I do, rather than simply trying to do it as fast as possible". And perhaps what that lying, two-faced, git of a politician in London is doing will help me get what I want, although that is surely the furthest intention from his mind.

However, I?ve only just started thinking about this, so I haven?t got very far with the thought process yet..

{Some typos amended at the request of the author - DD}
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
And perhaps what thay lying, two-faced, git of
a politician in London is doing will perhaps help me get
what I want, although that is surely the furstest intention from
his mind.



Which particular "lying, two-faced, git of a politician in London" would that be? It's not as if you've given us anything to narrow the choice down.
Global warming - reality or myth? - nortones2
I've been meaning to see how you responded FM2R: its busy being retired! Good post, and a lot of sense.
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
surely the more CO2 we pump out the more plants grow
and the more O2 they produce.


At last, someone who realises there are always two sides to every question.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
>> surely the more CO2 we pump out the more plants
grow
>> and the more O2 they produce.
At last, someone who realises there are always two sides to
every question.
--
L\'escargot.


Well, deforestation means less vegetation, and more methane from farmed cattle, and methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. Tundra is melting and apparently releasing stored green house gases (don't ask me how). If the climate changes over sub-saharan Africa, will we get more or less rain? I have heard less, so we will get increased desertification.

But the UK will become a holiday resort for sun-seekers, so Bradford and Barnsley had better get their tourism infrastructure up and running.

But we will know in 40 years time, though I might not be around to see it.
Global warming - reality or myth? - peterb
Good post from Mark (FM2R)

It's staggering how fast this stuff has entered the mainstream. I increasingly see the environmental movement as a religion. I don't mean in terms of its truth or otherwise - more the behaviours that surround it.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
So, none of us know if global warming is a myth or reality, and I certainly don't understand the science behind it -

But, maybe I'm not trying hard enough, I can't think of anything I do in my life, or am being asked to do by some Pro- global warming scientists, which really bothers me or in any way affects my general ability to enjoy life as I always have done

So, what is it that people are so hacked off about? If global warming exists then whatever we do now may help a little bit.

But if it doesn't exist, I really don't feel as though my quality of life has been compromised in any way.

What's does everyone want to do that they feel they're not being allowed to do?

I'm confused....

Burning stuff is bad ...right? That's what killed, and ruined the health of lots of people when we all had fires in our homes ...right?

Flying everywhere for a pound / £1 is bad because that isn't the 'true' cost ...right?


Same with flying food all over the place and comgestion and all that - why would anyone advocate these things as 'good' things?


Is it me? I don't know ... what's everyone beefing about?
Global warming - reality or myth? - No FM2R
Now that's my point; suddenly I find myself increasingly willing myself not to believe in Global Warming.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
I was given a stat this am, there is 50,000 times more energy stored as heat in the upper most 10,000 meters of the earth's crust than in the whole of the global oil and gas reserves combined.

Makes me think that we are arrogant in even thinking that our activities can ever have much influence.

I am all for saving energy, I am just not sure about the political justifications that are given for doing so.
Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
Hi

I'm new to the forum so be gentle on me. I've decided to comment here because I am both an atmospheric scientist and a petrolhead.

Firstly, I don't think there is any reasonable doubt that the global mean surface temperature is currently rising quite rapidly. All the evidence from satellites, met sites, ships etc etc would support this.

Many on this forum have correctly noted that the climate has always changed throughout history, before humans ever emerged. The Earth has been both warmer and cooler than at present. This raises the question - is the current increase just natural or is it in some way related to the changes we have made to the atmosphere?

In an attempt to answer the above question, the key tool is the mathematical model of the atmosphere and ocean - the climate model.
Models are used to simulate the climate over the past few hundred years and when they do a decent job of the past, they are applied to the future. Almost without exception, all the models show that the current rise in temperature is due to the changes we have made to the atmosphere, although they show some variation in how large the variation will be in the future (in 2080, the range could well be 1.5 to 6.0 C). These models are far from perfect and we have to make guesses about future emissions from human activity e.g. how many power stations will burn coal in India and China. These models are essentially the same as the weather forecast models used by the Met Office so we all know they are not perfect but still do an OK job most/some of the time.

What saddens me is the way 'climate change' has been hijacked by all and sundry and is used as an excuse for everything or nothing, depending on the point of view. There is no way that we can say that a particular tornado in Birmingham is due to climate change but we can say that the probability of such extreme events is likely to increase as the temperature increases. On the other hand, surely it is sensible to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels as far as possible as they will not last for ever. Buying a Prius then flying in a private jet is just pink fluffy dice, as is putting a windmill on the roof whilst running an Aga or slapping an extra 10 quid on a flight to Edinburgh when the train is still twice as much.
Global warming - reality or myth? - No FM2R
>>I'm new to the forum so be gentle on me.

New you may be, but that (IMHO) was an excellent start.
Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
thank you - very kind.

Just trying to be as honest as I on based on what little I know on the subject. Good to see some proper discussion online too.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
"Buying a Prius then flying in a private jet is just pink fluffy dice, as is putting a windmill on the roof whilst running an Aga or slapping an extra 10 quid on a flight to Edinburgh when the train is still twice as much."

But is it worth buying a prius at all? Is it not better to keep a car as long as possible instead of causing new cars (even if they are prius to be made?) and what then of the economic cost of closing down car factories?

Is a windmill worth doing at all - not just to power an Aga - what about a lightbulb? Windmills are expensive?

What about putting a £100 on a flight? If more people use the train, the economic argument would suggest the price will fall.

Doing any of these things wouldn't compromise my life - but are they valid approaches?

Is it valid to oppose them?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
But is it worth buying a prius at all?


What is surprising is that the extra-urban performance of these cars is very good. So take out the heavy battieries and electric motors and surely you would have remarkable extra-urban performance. And it would cost less to make and buy. So why not also sell a Prius minus hte electric stuff? The answer is probably "Because the Prius is a fashion car".
What about putting a £100 on a flight? If more people
use the train, the economic argument would suggest the price will
fall.



Trains are horrendously expensive. It is usually cheaper for me to drive on my own in my car than to take the train. But the real problem is that rail was privatised so it cannot be managed as a solution to congestion to create a true integrated transport policy. I cannot buy cheap price tickets any more because the route goes via several operators networks. In the British Rail days I could get cut price off peak tickets by buying a modestly priced rail card.

With British Rail you could subsidise rail knowing that the profits would be reinvested, and you could argue that the subsidy was to reduce congestion etc. Now the subsidy just goes into train operators pockets. And because the leases are short term e.g. 5 years it means the train operators cannot negotiate favourable loans and carriage leasing deals, so they pay through the nose. Hence we pay through the nose. It was madness to privatise rail which is a natural monopoly anyway.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
i've heard politicians from all sides acknowledge that the rail privatisation exercise was at best misguided.

It does illustrate, (when did rail privatisation begin? 20 odd years ago?) - it shows that only 20 odd years ago people weren't even thinking about global warming and the effect of privatising the rail system on the environment

Doesn't seem to make us think though - "They weren't half stupid" - "Could we be being just as stupid now?"

Each generation has its own brand of selfishness - survival of the species, no doubt

There's a lot of Thatcher's kids who made their money and their pension funds out of the rail, water, electricity, telephone and oil sell-offs and they're all sitting snug and comfy going bah humbug to the rest of us.

I'm all right jack - stuff you all.

You can only sell off the country's assets once and ours are gone.

I could go on and on about Thatcher and the destruction of society. The kind of individualism she fostered is pretty distasteful and we're going to be stuck with it for a couple of generations

But, that's enough of that, we all have our views on how we ended up here - it's how we get out of here that's important.


Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
I was trying to point out the gestures that people make in order to appease their consciences rather than imply any merits in buying a Prius or using a windmill or taking the train.

Wouldn't touch a Prius with a barge-pole personally. Whole of life pollution from a vehicle is a bit outside my area of understanding. So far as I know, life-cycle analysis needs you to make value judgements about the relative environmental effects of e.g. higher NOx emissions from an old car vs the need to mine more iron ore for a new car etc etc. Our society is based on continuous improvement with people replacing all manner of items with shiny new ones which does keep the economy growing. I wouldn't want to be still driving my MK I Fiesta, for sure. I'd like a Aston V8 but it's CO2 emissions are the least of the reasons why I don't have one.

Windmills - they need constant wind between approx 10 and 35 mph to do their best work. Cities are often useless because they are not that windy and often turbulent. Turbulence really upsets windmills. IMO it's not worth paying 2 grand for a windmill from a DIY centre unless you live somewhere really windy e.g. Western Isles. As you say, buy some energy saving bulbs, insulate the loft, turn the TV/computer off when you are not using it if you want to save energy.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf


I get so annoyed by the arrogant hypocrisy of politicians on this isssue.

EU chief: 'Don't drive as I do, drive as I say'
By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels
Last Updated: 10:42am GMT 07/03/2007 Daily T



The president of the European Commission was forced to defend himself yesterday against allegations of hypocrisy for owning a gas-guzzling 4x4 vehicle while Brussels steps up its campaign against vehicles which pollute the atmosphere.


José Manuel Barroso insisted that fighting
climate change was about 'collective action'


José Manuel Barroso, who owns a Volkswagen Touareg, said: "I have never spoken of myself as an example to anybody - today's moralistic approach is not mine."

The president's German-built 4x4 emits high levels of CO2, running at up to 356 grams per kilometre, well above a 130 g limit Brussels is seeking to impose on the car industry by 2012.

Mr Barroso insisted that fighting climate change was about "collective action" and voiced concern that a focus on an individual's CO2 usage could be a "slippery slope.....................................

tinyurl.com/ynm36y
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
What about putting a £100 on a flight? If more people
use the train, the economic argument would suggest the price will
fall.



Speaking from a personal point of view:

trains - are very expensive as well all know. the thing that I really object to is that I sometimes don't know when I need to take a train and therefore there is little or no chance of me buying a discounted ticket in advance. Of the last half dozen times I have taken a train, only once was I able to book more than a few days in advance and I actually got a seat. The other times I couldn't and I had to stand for about 2½ hours which I object to. If you have more people using trains then there will be complete meltdown.

We are in a sorry situation. The privatised companies will not put in the investment to lengthen patforms (for longer trains) or other measures to increase capacity. Unless that happens and thigns get better and cheaper I really cannot see any reason why I should get out of my car.

My usual train journey is from London to Somerset.

Easy enough to catch a bus to Clapham Junction where I board a train and stand for 2½ hours or if I am lucky I can very occaisionally get a seat after about 1¾ hours.

Arrive at the station where my father in law has driven 30 minutes to collect me.

It would be quicker for me to drive door to door and certainly not cost me (IIRC) £40 or so to do so.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
to repeat what i have said many times in the past few years on this subject on this forum:

personally, i believe mankind is having an effect on the climate.
i don't know the cause - it may be the huge due to population growth (there were less than a million people on earth just a few thousand years ago), agriculture, meat production, energy consumtion, car use, destruction of the tropical forests, or whatever.

however, i also believe that it is drastic global action (particularly in china, india, far-east, but especially the usa) that will have any impact to stop or reverse the changes.

you may as well nuke the uk and europe out of existence such that their emissions and other effects are zero forever, but it will not have much of a significant impact on the global climate.

fatalistic, but that is how it is in my view.

p.s. despite all that, i do my best to live my life such that it impacts other people as little as possible.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
you may as well nuke the uk and europe out of
existence such that their emissions and other effects are zero forever,
but it will not have much of a significant impact on
the global climate.


Actually a mild nuclear winter might solve the problem.

If you're reading this George W., I'm kidding.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
China, India and other far-eastern countries use obsolete technology to make goods to export to us because we have legislated against those very production methods in our countries

We aren't prepared to pay the proper price to allow others to live the quality of lives we are lucky enough to lead - When the Chinese and the Indians get fed up of living on 10p and hour and we can no longer buy suits of clothing for £20 from primark then we'll see who's responsible for what

This country and Europe has, for centuries, exerted the greatest influence over the shape of modern civilisation

There's no reason for that to stop - we are at the economic and intellectual centre of the world

But if we stop caring, you can be damn sure nobody else will be bothered - it's up to us to take the lead
Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
Hi Jemima,

I was at a meeting the other day and one of the keynote speakers was the Chief Govt Scientist. He went on and on about climate change but the emphasis was not on the science but the technology. It seems that the UK Govt now views climate change as an opportunity to gain a competitive advantage over other countries in the development of new technology. The intention seems to be to invest in technological and engineering solutions to climate change e.g. carbon sequestration and clean technology. Nuclear is seen as an inevitable component of the future too.

Will any of it actually happen and will we give it away to the countries that need it? Time will tell, I suppose. Audience was fairly sceptical but who isn't when a 'politician' makes promises.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
. Nuclear
is seen as an inevitable component of the future too.


As any fule kno, declining carbon fuel resources make nuclear essential for energy-hungry societies now, let alone in fifty years' time... This has nothing to do with global warming, just declining resources combined with rapidly growing demand for energy. It takes a lot of energy to separate hydrogen out of water for example, if fuel-cell or hydrogen internal combustion engines are to be part of the future. And if we are going to have rechargeable g-whiz things the same applies.

Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
As any fule kno, declining carbon fuel resources make nuclear essential
for energy-hungry societies now, let alone in fifty years' time...


Who's to say that we won't find another source of carbon fuel? It might be a bit deeper in the ground ..............
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
Can't count on it though escargot. Of course there may be more oil than people try to make out - as the price goes up more expensive-to-produce deposits can be exploited - but it must run out eventually. There's a lot of coal but it too has to be finite.

Personally I doubt that all the world's cars and trucks can be run on biofuel. No one can foresee future technological developments or discoveries, and some way may be found of letting us have our cake and eat it without the undesirable side-effects of radioactive waste (and extinct reactor sites) and availability of weapon technologies. But we can't count on it.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
The price of uranium has more than triple din the past 5 years... ONLY because the Chinese are building reactors. Imo there is NOT enough urnaium to go round.. I'd like o see some relaible statistics..
Biofuel suffers from a major problem... it requires energy from the sun.. so you need lots of sunlight and big areas... and one of the causes of global warming is deforestation..

And one of the things biofuel advocates omit to mention is... deforestation...

And the US biofuel drive has significantly increased the price of wheat and corn.. anyone notice the rise in bread prices? That's why...

So it' all about using natural energy sources without impacting food or forests or...

The real problem is: the elephant in the room is: the unspeakble is:

the world's population is outgrowing the supply of cheap resources..


madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
Jemima Can: " i've heard politicians from all sides acknowledge that the rail privatisation exercise was at best misguided."

Yes, even the Tories acknowledge the mistake.


Jemima Can: "There's a lot of Thatcher's kids who made their money and their pension funds out of the rail, water, electricity, telephone and oil sell-offs and they're all sitting snug and comfy going bah humbug to the rest of us.
I'm all right jack - stuff you all.I could go on and on about Thatcher and the destruction of society. The kind of individualism she fostered is pretty distasteful and we're going to be stuck with it for a couple of generations"

I guess that you are relatively young as I have heard similar views from people born after 1970.

If like me you are in your 40's or older, then you will remember what gave rise to Thatcher. Before Mrs T. the country nearly went bankrupt under Callaghan (Labour), militant unions were attempting to bring the country to a standstill, and Heath (Tory) introduced the three day week. Neither Labour nor Tory could stand up to the unions. The country was a serious mess. Back then "Made in Britain" meant bad quality. Strikes at British Leyland were commonplace and partly explain the collapse of Rover (along with underinvestment). The selfish people were not the Tories, but the unions, who were trying to bring the country down for their own self centred reasons. In Fleet Street many journalists claimed several pay packets for fictitious employees such was the level of union backed corruption.

I'm not saying that Mrs T. did not make mistakes but she is due a lot of credit for the realtively healthy economy we now have.

And she was also the first politician to take global warming seriously. Believe it or not. Whatever Mrs T's failings, she was not selfish. (Note that she was not only an MP and then Prime MInister, but looked after her familty, including cooking for them. A remarkable woman. And I speak as someone who loathed her at the time.)

She also increased home ownership among the working classes and increased the number of people from poor backgrounds going to university. Social mobility has decreased and inequality has increased under Blair. Now young people cannot afford their own homes, and buy to let landlords are getting rich renting out their portfolios of homes. Who would have thought it.

Enough ranting ...
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
It takes a lot of energy to separate hydrogen out of water


A fact that is usually forgotten when discussing fuel cells. And production of that energy will most probably create pollution.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
China, India and other far-eastern countries use obsolete technology to make
goods to export to us because we have legislated against those
very production methods in our countries



In China they use modern factories built and often owned by Western and Japanese countries. Japan is doing very nicely selling heavy engineering equipment to China. Pollution will come from power stations, mining operations, and in time, cars.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
What none of the doom-mongers have explained is how far we need to regress if we are indeed responsible for raising the temperature of the planet (which may not even be a bad thing, who knows till it happens?).

If anyone seriously thinks that buying energy saving lightbulbs and not letting your car warm up on the drive is going to make a ha'penny's worth of difference they are indeed deluding themselves. With a rapidly growing world population we would need to revert back to something like an Iron Age existance to make any effective difference. This would lead to the standards of living and health that people in those days had to indure, which would rapidly kill off at least half of the planet within a short time.

The way to beat the alleged man made threat to the planet is with technological advances that allow us to prosper while doing minimal damage. If we can't manage it in time, well we've had a good innings and we were never going to be here for ever anyway.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Ed V
See The Great Global Warming Swindle tonight on C4
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
"The way to beat the alleged man made threat to the planet is with technological advances that allow us to prosper while doing minimal damage. If we can't manage it in time, well we've had a good innings and we were never going to be here for ever anyway."

The triumph of fatalism!

I don't see where 'regression' became compulsory, or even advisory, in order to save the planet.

Are there too many people on the planet? Too many to support in the way 'we' in the west live - for sure. That doesn't mean that in order to survive we have to live like those in the poorer nations.

It does suggest that it would be less damaging if there were less of 'us' rather than less of 'them'

But that's a turkeys voting for Christmas scenario and lots of people can't even be bothered to change their lightbulbs.

Sure we can all go - what does it matter? We won't be around to see it.

I'm glad all our fathers and grandfathers have taken that approach in the past.

No wonder the kids today are the way they are, get up and fight for heaven's sake, heaven help us if the iraquis ever turned up here looking to invade - oh yeah, the beef's over there, help yourself man.
we don't care, we've all got to die someday, yeah man



Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
China, India and other far-eastern countries use obsolete technology to make
goods to export to us because we have legislated against those
very production methods in our countries


Before I retired, one of my last jobs in automotive R&D was to test and approve assemblies that were to be made under licence in China. The quality was superb ~ if anything it was better than what my UK employer turned out.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
An article in today's Daily Mail that basically states what is my personal opinion as well:

tinyurl.com/33t2sn
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Richard Lindzen? Hahahahahaha.

He is Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology. The Daily Mail neglected to mention the Alfred P. Sloan part. I guess you must know who Alfred P. Sloan was, but just in case you don't he ran GM in the 1950s. In other words Lindzen's chair is endowed by the motor industry. Lindzen has also been revealed recently to have been taking money from Exxon. Honestly, Daily Mail readers will believe anything if it fits their narrow world view.

Sloan did great things with GM and more or less invented car finance, but if you take his money you don't get to express a balanced view on climate change and shouldn't expect to be taken seriously on the subject either.
Global warming - reality or myth? - tyro
Richard Lindzen? Hahahahahaha.


The guy may be in the pay of the motor industry and the oil industry, but that doesn't mean he can be easily laughed off.

In the past 3 years, MIT has been ranked 3rd, 2nd, and 4th among world universities by the THES. Only one university in the world (Harvard) has consistently bettered it. I strongly doubt that they hire idiots
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
>> Richard Lindzen? Hahahahahaha.
The guy may be in the pay of the motor industry
and the oil industry, but that doesn't mean he can be
easily laughed off.


He can on this topic though and he should have thought of that.

No, they don't hire idiots and I don't think he is one. Did you know the department of Linguistics at MIT is funded in part by the US Department of Defense? Guess who works there. Yup, Noam Chomsky, who has made (half) a career criticizing the defence industry and the "Military Industrial Complex." Now that demands respect; were Chomsky an apologist for the defence industry do you think he would be as respected as he is? And just why did the Mail not mention the learned Professor Lindzen's full title? I wonder.
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
>> >> Richard Lindzen? Hahahahahaha.
>>
>> The guy may be in the pay of the motor
industry
>> and the oil industry, but that doesn't mean he can
be
>> easily laughed off.
He can on this topic though and he should have thought
of that.
No, they don't hire idiots and I don't think he is
one. Did you know the department of Linguistics at MIT is
funded in part by the US Department of Defense? Guess who
works there. Yup, Noam Chomsky, who has made (half) a career
criticizing the defence industry and the "Military Industrial Complex." Now that
demands respect; were Chomsky an apologist for the defence industry do
you think he would be as respected as he is? And
just why did the Mail not mention the learned Professor Lindzen's
full title? I wonder.



Fair enough about the people - most people have an agenda.

But the points raised are either true or false and there is no two ways about it. Without wanting to be melodramatic I think that HMG should look at this programme and the points that it has raised and actually come out and either say yes they are true or not.

How many scientists do you see standing up and saying the opposite of what the guys on C4 said (ie the counter argument)? Very few or none - it is always politicians doing the speaking, like Al Gore.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Fair enough about the people - most people have an agenda.


Indeed they do. In cases like this though it would be fairer if they declared it, don't you think, so we can make our own minds up about them? Argument and counter-argument are good, but the "don't believe it" crowd often end up looking very shady indeed. Oddly enough Exxon has recently hinted that there might be something in this global warming business and is funding a couple of outspoken believers. Could be a (small) gamble to make them switch of course...

Curiously Al Gore has been banging on about this for many years now. Since long before it was an agenda-topping issue, and often in the face of some very powerful opposition.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
>>Curiously Al Gore has been banging on about this for many years now. Since long before it was an agenda-topping issue, and often in the face of some very powerful opposition.>>

Yet apparently lives in a (very) big property and flies around the world preaching his message.

Smacks of sheer hypocrisy.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Yet apparently lives in a (very) big property and flies around
the world preaching his message.
Smacks of sheer hypocrisy.


Yes indeed Al Gore comes from a wealthy background and lives in a big house. It is embarrassing for him that it is also quite inefficient even for its size.

The flying though is more tricky. If he's right about global warming, and his campaign has the effect of educating people and persuading them to reduce carbon emissions with beneficial effect, then I'd say the aircraft miles will have been worth it in his case. If he's wrong it won't matter, will it?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
Before I retired, one of my last jobs in automotive R&D
was to test and approve assemblies that were to be made
under licence in China. The quality was superb ~ if
anything it was better than what my UK employer turned out.
--
L\'escargot.



I like decent coffee and have quite a few stainless steel stove top espresso coffee makers. Most are Italian and the build quality is awful though the design is nice. The handle fell off one of them after just over a year of use. I recently bought a Chinese one, and blimey, it is several steps up in terms of quality. And cheaper.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
"The way to beat the alleged man made threat to the planet is with technological advances that allow us to prosper while doing minimal damage. If we can't manage it in time, well we've had a good innings and we were never going to be here for ever anyway."

I have to say that I agree with the Plastic Pig on this. The idea what we can reduce overall emissions is just plain barmy given the massive changes in India and China and the huge numbers of new consumers.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
It seems to me, the bottom line is freedom without responsibility

everybody wants to consume relentlessly at the best price for them and with no responsibility or thought for the consequences or symptoms of that mass consumption

Baby boomers - at the heart of so much that's reckless and wrong - but what do they care?

Not a jot - unless it's going to impinge upon their consumption now

Not my problem - it seems it's theeasiest answer to everything

There's a tv programme in it, I'm sure - one of those C5 or ITV Police, camera, action type things, - "When hippies go bad!"
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
There's a tv programme in it, I'm sure - one
of those C5 or ITV Police, camera, action type things, -
"When hippies go bad!"


Excellent.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Shaz {p}
A good program on right now:

Pretty interesting.

Heres the bumpf:


The Great Global Warming Swindle
Channel 4 Thu Mar 08 9:00 PM

Polemical film challenging the consensus that man-made CO2 is heating up the earth. Featuring leading academics, the film questions the science behind the accepted reasons for global warming and argues other explanations for climate change are not being properly aired.

Bringing together the arguments of leading scientists who disagree with the prevailing view that carbon dioxide, released by human activity, is the cause of rising global temperatures, the film highlights recent research that the effect of the sun's radiation on the atmosphere may be a better explanation for the regular swings of climate. The film argues that the earth's climate is always changing, and that rapid warmings and coolings took place long before the burning of fossil fuels. It contends that the present single-minded focus on reducing carbon emissions not only may have little impact on climate change; it may also have the unintended consequence of stifling development in the third world, prolonging endemic poverty and disease. The film features an impressive roll-call of experts, including nine professors - experts in climatology, oceanography, meteorology, environmental science, biogeography and paleoclimatology - from such reputable institutions as MIT, NASA, the International Arctic Research Centre, the Institut Pasteur, the Danish National Space Center and the Universities of London, Ottawa, Jerusalem, Winnipeg, Alabama and Virginia.

Director: Martin Durkin.
Production: Wag TV
Global warming - reality or myth? - mss1tw
This is a really good program!
Global warming - reality or myth? - midlifecrisis
Not 'An inconvenient truth'............just the truth!

Every slimey politician(ie all of them) should be made to watch this!
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
Have to confess that I am a "Global warming" sceptic (see numerous previous posts if you have nothing else to do!), so I might be a little biassed, but the most refreshing aspect of the programme was the fact that it sought to put the "opposite point of view" to the conceived wisdom. Some pretty authoritative figures made their point - they may be completely wrong of course, but at least it provokes a great amount of thought and debate.

--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
Brilliant programme.

Showed this Global Whinging religeon up for what it is. A complete scam out of which a lot of people are doing very well, thank you very much.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mecon
A bit of background on the guy who produced the program: www.gmwatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=39

Not very complementary.

I think that the problem is that many of us just do not want to believe that global warming exists or will cause problems because we are too wedded to the status and lifestyle.
Global warming - reality or myth? - BazzaBear {P}
A bit of background on the guy who produced the program:
www.gmwatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=39
Not very complementary.


Hmmm... Background as written by rabid enemies of his stance. Likely to be at all biased do you think?
As others have said, this program is of course biased, but refreshing to be able to hear something biased in that direction rather than the constant opposite bias we get shoved in our faces by the government.
How can we ever reach the truth, when the arguments are almost entirely political?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
Steady on chaps... but a good representation of the other view nonetheless, in what is essentially a polemical struggle.

I do agree that there is a sanctimonious, moralistic side to the global-warming-is-expensive-motors line, indeed to the global warming line tout court.

Are the sanctimony and moralism justified, we wonder. But answer comes there none.

Either you're a grinning Jeremy Clarkson idiot or a po-faced Gerorge Monbiot idiot. You can't win except by ignoring the whole thing. But people will chivvy you about it.

You can't win.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Shaz {p}
Co founder of green peace, former editor of new scientist magazine... all on the program.

Refreshing at least... well done channel 4.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Shaz {p}
More on:

www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global...l
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
An entertaining one and a half hours TV (phew) but totally unbalanced. It presented not one criticism of the sceptical researchers and politicians interviewed. None of the so-called global warmers had a say, or was allowed to answer any of the points made, or comment on the sceptics research. The sceptics were allowed to talk unquestioned as if what they said was total truth. Such is often not the case in science. The presenter adopted the usual "here is a scandal that we are revealing cos we is clever innit" approach of sensationalistic journalism with appropriate background music to subliminally create the desired mood. Totally and utterly biased and exactly the sort of meeja hype repeatedly criticised by the critics.

But ... there were many interesting points made. Piers Corbyn does have a track record of weather prediction. The solar research presented 'seemed' interesting (despite the uncritical presentation). Lord Lawson is no fool, and the same is true of his House of Lords colleagues. Research spending has increased massively. And of course the media hype on global warming is outrageous. Ascribing every freak weather event to GW is nonsense and even GW advocates would agree with that.

So ... what would be interesting is to see a debate between the two sides, and have criticism of the programme rather than a completely one-sided polemic. Make it balanced. Maybe just maybe that will happen?
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"totally unbalanced"

Of course it was

"None of the so-called global warmers had a say, or was allowed to answer any of the points made"

So, just the same as all those pro global warming programmes we have been subjected to for so long

"there were many interesting points made."

Quite right

"the media hype on global warming is outrageous"

Agreed

" interesting to see a debate between the two sides"

Agreed again

" (debate) Maybe just maybe that will happen"

No chance!! Or if it did, it would be the longest running programme ever! And inconcusive unless it ran
until about 2050 or maybe 2150

--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
And inconcusive unless it ran
until about 2050 or maybe 2150


A bit like this thread then? ;-)
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dipstick
It seems to me that the argument that global warming being man made and therefore we should do something about it because it will be too dangerous not to bears a resemblance to Drake's equation, and is about as meaningful.

That equation takes estimates - very conservative ones - as to the number of stars, stars with planets, stars with inhabitable planets, stars with life supporting inhabitable planets, the time they have been in existence and other factors, multiplies them all together and comes up with a number that makes the chances of there NOT being millions of technically advanced alien civilisations out there somewhere to be vanishingly small. And of course, who knows what intentions they might have. Perhaps we should be prepared in case?

So, you have your "data". You also have a huge - really huge - media interest in UFOs, and countless reports, studies, eye witness accounts - the list is endless.

Am I buying me a laser gun for when the little green men arrive with their probes?

No, I'm taking a balanced view.

I'm trying to be open minded without letting my brains fall out.

And I'm getting on with the business of making money, keeping up Western living standards and contributing however indirectly to a society that has delivered advances in medicine, lifestyle, wealth, pleasure and relief from subsistence for billions, and, however cackhandedly, is attempting to spread to those who don't have all those things yet.

The maintenance of that approach is likely to lead to a better standard of living for everybody ultimately. Sure, there's still abject poverty and misery. Sure, there are people starving and homeless. But changing my light bulbs isn't going to do much. Paying my way, keeping the UK rich, is likely to deliver much more in terms of technology, basic or advanced to those people.

I don't intend to be easily diverted from that difficult and sometime unrewarding course by the tedious and wilful misrepresentation of "fact" that so many are guilty of. I just don't believe it.

And the more hysterical it becomes, the more personal it becomes, the less likely I am to come around.

If someone tells me I'm a GW denyer, an ostrich, an idiot, then I shrug my shoulders, smile nicely and carry on. Whether the argument is right or wrong it is never going to convince me if I'm bullied about it.. There needs to be a LOT more reasoned argument and a LOT more diplomacy to convince me that everything humanity has achieved is wrong, we should be made to feel guilty, and we should positively undo what we have.

As Lisa says to Homer "Dad, just because you keep saying that it doesn't make it true."

Which is why I'm not selling my Jag tomorrow.
Global warming - reality or myth? - DP
So, just the same as all those pro global warming programmes
we have been subjected to for so long


My sentiments exactly. The pro lobby have had all the airtime and all the headlines in recent years. It's about time this theory was presented as such, and that the many dissenters who the pro lobby either call insulting names, or pretend they don't exist altogether, were given their say.

MMCC is now a whole industry. Carbon offsetting companies, renewable energy companies, "think tanks" and I don't even want to think about how the environmentally related departments of our public services have mushroomed in terms of numbers and funding. Governments love it because they can use it to justify high fuel taxes and greater monitoring and intrusion into everyone's lives. The more sanctimonious of the campaign groups see it as a way to impose their beliefs on the wider population.

It always makes me laugh that anyone who disagrees with the theory of MMCC is alleged to be "in bed with the oil companies" or having some kind of self serving personal agenda, yet how many of those supporting this theory depend on it for their job, or for the soapbox they are currently enjoying.

Believe it or not, I am firmly on the fence as far as this one goes. A balanced debate with both sides given equal voice is all I want, so that I can make my own mind up. All I hear at the moment is mud slinging and name calling, and a disproportionate amount of attention given to just one side of the argument.

Cheers
DP
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
A balanced debate with both sides
given equal voice is all I want, so that I can
make my own mind up.


Together with the vast majority of the population I haven't the necessary technical knowledge of the subject to enable me to make an informed decision.
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - MVP
Man Made "Global Warming" is a great scam for governments.

They can't sort out the NHS, crime or schools , so spend most of their time, and deflect a lot of the publics worry, onto something that doesn't exist!

Brilliant!
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
Just a thought about propaganda


In the 1980s and early 1990s the world was going to be destroyed by the ozone layer being destroyed. Result ban CFCs, fit catalytic converters to our cars etc etc.

Now where is this in the news/debate about the whole global warming thing? Nowhere! It NEVER gets mentioned anymore as it is only CO2 that is killing us. Has the ozone layer repaired itself? I thought that the poles were melting because that was where the biggest hole in the ozone layer was! {I believe that the ozone layer was being depleted at one level but was being "rebuilt" at another}.



As I said earlier, if you think that getting in your car and driving to the shops is going to make a difference to the world's climate, I think that you should possibly take a step back and look at the bigger picture (primarily the sun). The human race has always been far too arrogant.
Global warming - reality or myth? - DP
A statistic I once read (can't remember where) stuck in my head.

95% of Earth's "Greenhouse effect" is caused by water vapour of which 99.9% is from natural sources.

Of the remaining 5%, 4% of it is from "Greenhouse gases", of which only 5% is from human activity.

So, if these figures are correct, human activity, including transport, industry and domestic energy is contributes just 5% of 4% of 5% to the greenhouse effect. Or 0.001% according to my calculator.

With this in mind, the idea that sticking a wind turbine on your house or driving a Prius can make one iota of difference is laughable.

Of course, I don't know how accurate these statistics are, but are they any less plausible than the "facts" being peddled by the other side of the argument? I go back to my original point, we are not being given the information we need to make an informed choice.

Cheers
DP
Global warming - reality or myth? - Screwloose
DP

Did I hear correctly ['meant to have taped it] that CO2 is only 0.054% of the Earth's atmosphere and is not a very potent greenhouse gas at that.

So even if we do increase it to - say - 0.057% [Shock horror!] So what? CO2 has no measurable effect on climate at all.

It certainly blew a hole in the "2500 scientists..." claim.
Global warming - reality or myth? - geoff1248
Global warming is a fact, however we are being sold the causes also as a fact rather than as a theory. A bit like the Theory of Relativity it is a theory--we just don't know what is causing global warming or if it is a natural occurance.
Global warming - reality or myth? - KMO
Global warming is a fact, however we are being sold the causes also as a fact rather than as a theory.
That's progress at least. Not many years ago, you lot were denying that there was any warming. LOL

In a few years time, you'll admit that it's man-made, but then you'll start the arguments that it's not viable to do anything about it.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Big Bad Dave
"In a few years time, you'll admit that it's man-made"

No I won't because it isn't.
Global warming - reality or myth? - DP
Screwloose,

I actually missed the programme, so I'm not sure.

To me it's just intensely frustrating that the claims differ so wildly. I just can't help feeling now with the considerable political and economic interests on both sides, the truth becomes cloudier by the day.

Cheers
DP
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
... the truth becomes cloudier by the day


most if not all the questions posed by the "sceptics" are answered here, if they care to look (but then that may not go with their beliefs):

www.metoffice.gov.uk/faqs/index.html

however, most people here are missing one important fact.
it does not matter whether climate change is happening, or if it is, whether it is due to man or nature or co2 or methane or whatever, the fact is that the politicians of a liberal and social bent have accepted in their minds that climate change is being caused by human activity.
and these politicians are putting measures in place to make us pay for it and/or change our behaviour.

if you want to avoid their actions or prevent them doing what they are doing, you need to vote them out and replace them with thatcherites (but not replace them with other politicians such as the new green camerons); or you choose to live in a communist regime as china or capitalist regime as in india or capitalist regime in usa as under bush/cheyne where they don't give a **** what the climate-change lobby say or do.

so stop all this moaning and whingeing and arguing. you have no choice even if you disagree with the green lobby.
go willingly green with the eu politics,
or to avoid the caring-sharing-bleeding-heart pain that is inevitable with the current lot, choose your next leaders who are true capitalists or true communists.

Global warming - reality or myth? - RichardW
"Did I hear correctly ['meant to have taped it] that CO2 is only 0.054% of the Earth's atmosphere"

It's less than that - approx 380ppm, which is about 0.038% (by volume) on average.
--
RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
Global warming - reality or myth? - KMO
It doesn't get mentioned much because the ozone hole has begun to stabilise, as a result of all the measures that were taken. We did what was necessary, the CFC we pumped into the atmosphere is gradually breaking down, and the damage is starting to repair itself.

Quotes from Wikipedia:

A 2005 IPCC summary of ozone issues observed that observations and model calculations suggest that the global average amount of ozone depletion has now approximately stabilized. Although considerable variability in ozone is expected from year to year, including in polar regions where depletion is largest, the ozone layer is expected to begin to recover in coming decades due to declining ozone-depleting substance concentrations, assuming full compliance with the Montreal Protocol.
...
The Antarctic ozone hole is expected to continue for decades. Ozone concentrations in the lower stratosphere over Antarctica will increase by 5%-10% by 2020 and return to pre-1980 levels by about 2060-2075, 10-25 years later than predicted in earlier assessments.


If the problem was still getting worse as a result of our ongoing action, you can bet it would still be in the news. But we've taken the necessary measures, so all we can do is wait for the atmosphere to recover. I look forward to the day when the CO2 levels stabilise and are no longer in the news... But even if we stopped all CO2 emissions today, it will take centuries for the atmosphere to return to normal.

So, were we arrogant to realise that we were destroying the ozone layer? Or would it have perhaps been arrogant to think that it couldn't possibly have been anything to do with us, and that we can pump anything we like into the air and water - couldn't possibly do any harm?
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
Do you really think that westerners stopping using CFCs has made this stabalise?
Global warming - reality or myth? - geoff1248
I remember a TV prog. showing containers full of our broken fridges/freezers being shipped to third world countries for them to repair and use. So we may have stopped using them but they crop up somewehere else.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Do you really think that westerners stopping using CFCs has made
this stabalise?


Have you got a better explanation?
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
>> Do you really think that westerners stopping using CFCs has
made
>> this stabalise?
>>
Have you got a better explanation?



To be honest - no!

But with the interference from politicians, if it had been their measures that had saved us all from being frazzled don't you think that they would be crowing about it? When was the last time a politician mentioned the ozone layer?
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
ps - anyway, back in those days when they did mention it, that was the sole reason for climate change. where was the co2 then?

Also if it was their measures that saved the ozone layer, they would be mentioning it now to give more weight to their beliefs on CO2.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
ps - anyway, back in those days when they did mention
it, that was the sole reason for climate change. where was
the co2 then?


There were Congressional hearings on greenhouse gases (including CO2) and their reduction in the 1970s, and hearings on global warming in the 1980s. This isn't a new thing, it's just that nobody was listening back then.
Global warming - reality or myth? - SteVee
Some good discussion here, personally I think we (mankind) still don't understand the causes of current climate changes, I'm not convinced we have ANY experts on the subject yet

If we look to the planet venus, we see a planet with a great deal of Carbon Dioxide in its atmosphere, though there is a theory that its atmosphere was much more like earth's at some point.
We can be confident that this wasn't due to mankind (though there's a theory that women are from venus :-) ), and that ''nature' is far more capable of global change than mankind.

The effect of Venus's atmosphere is to raise it's temperature above that of the planet Mercury - which is much closer to the Sun. Perhaps we should find out what happened there and see if it correlates to what could happen here ?

We're a long way from understanding our planet, though I would suggest that a reduction in any 'pollution' is good, and that we need to reduce our consumption of resources
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dipstick
It got dark last night. It was horrible.

Someone told me if I ran up and down the stairs for an hour the dark would go away, and crikey, it did! Wonderful!

Have you got a better explanation?

Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
re ozone layer and climate change:

www.metoffice.gov.uk/faqs/2.html#q2.18

www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...l

Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
"if you want to avoid their actions or prevent them doing what they are doing, you need to vote them out and replace them with thatcherites"

Thatcher was the first politician of note to take on board the global warming message. And according to last night's programme, she was the first to pump large amounts of money into climate change research. So maybe she was not the best choice from your point of view.

One of the interesting points in the Met Office guide is that the solar driven climate model is described as being unproven. In other words, it is not disproven. So hopefully the advocates of that model will find out in a few years, or more, whether or not they can put forward convincing proof, or whether it falls by the wayside. I hope they succeed even though I am not a GW sceptic per se.

One thing I find interesting is how so many of us have become emotionally attached to one side of the argument, and happily dismiss the other sides arguments by means of very simplistic statements. Thus GW sceptics dismiss GW by saying for example that volcanos disprove GW, or that natural climate variation has been going on since the Earth first gained an atmosphere. In my opinion the idea that non-sceptical climate scientists ideas can be dismissed so easily is to treat them as stupid. (Which is why I do not dismiss the sceptics arguments. They need to do more research.)
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
It got dark last night. It was horrible.
Someone told me if I ran up and down the stairs
for an hour the dark would go away, and crikey, it
did! Wonderful!
Have you got a better explanation?


Several, ranging from "someone switched a light on" to "a new day dawned". How many do you have for the ozone layer "healing"?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dipstick
Excellent. There are some nice simple explanations for it getting light, presented clearly, with no bile, political bias or extreme fervour. There's also more than one of them. Thank you!


The same clarity of argument for climate change, and acceptance of possible alternatives, doesn't seem to be there.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
..The same clarity of argument for climate change, and acceptance of possible alternatives, doesn't seem to be
there


so you have come to that conclusion despite reading all the information available at :
www.metoffice.gov.uk/faqs/index.html and
www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/index.h...l

dipstick, you have chosen an appropriately suitable user name.

if it is worth saying once, it is worth saying again:

tough luck me old matey. get over it, and get used to it.
the eurocrats have just proposed to force everyone to use energy-saving light bulbs, just as they have recently banned the sale of incandescent bulbs in australia. that is just the start. the bleeding heart socialists and liberals are going to change how you behave whether you agree with climate change opinions or not.
most if not all the questions posed by the "sceptics" are answered here, if they care to look (but then that may not go with their beliefs):


www.metoffice.gov.uk/faqs/index.html

however, most people here are missing one important fact.
it does not matter whether climate change is happening, or if it is, whether it is due to man or nature or co2 or methane or whatever, the fact is that the politicians of a liberal and social bent have accepted in their minds that climate change is being caused by human activity.
and these politicians are putting measures in place to make us pay for it and/or change our behaviour.

if you want to avoid their actions or prevent them doing what they are doing, you need to vote them out and replace them with thatcherites (but not replace them with other politicians such as the new green camerons); or you choose to live in a communist regime as china or capitalist regime as in india or capitalist regime in usa as under bush/cheyne where they don't give a **** what the climate-change lobby say or do.

so stop all this moaning and whingeing and arguing. you have no choice even if you disagree with the green lobby.
go willingly green with the eu politics,
or to avoid the caring-sharing-bleeding-heart pain that is inevitable with the current lot, choose your next leaders who are true capitalists or true communists.



Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Excellent. There are some nice simple explanations for it getting
light, presented clearly, with no bile, political bias or extreme fervour.
There's also more than one of them. Thank you!


Is there more than one explanation for the ozone layer "healing"? If so you haven't said what it is.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Screwloose
Baskerville

There is one perfectly plausible reason for the ozone layer's miraculous "recovery" - there was nothing wrong with it in the first place and it was just another hysterical con by the environmentalists.

Some years ago, I was chatting to a friend from Rothera [then, as now, BAS's main Antarctic research base] and I happened to inquire after the current size of "the hole in the ozone layer." His reply was illuminating - "How big do you want it to be?" Apparently; density tapers towards the poles and the size of the "hole" depends on where you define the "edge" to be.

His view [and he'd been researching it there] was that there was always a hole in the ozone layer over the South Pole in winter - there is after all no sunlight, for months, to make any and it's short-lived stuff. When this lack was "re-discovered" it was presented as a [shock, horror] new phenomenon.

Now that we've been good boys [except those that haven't] and done exactly as we were told; the green zealots will stop laying on the guilt and move on to their next hoop for us to jump through - MM global warming from CO2. The only cure - the formerly untouchable nuclear energy.... Strange bedfellows.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Interesting, but it doesn't tally with what it says on the British Antarctic Survey site:

"The influence of the human race on climate is still a matter for study and speculation, but the ability to perturb the ozone layer is an established fact.

The discovery by the British Antarctic Survey of the Antarctic ozone hole provided an early warning of the dangerous thinning of the ozone layer worldwide, and spurred international efforts to curb the production of CFCs. If the provisions of the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer of 1987 are revised, strengthened and followed, there is a reasonable prospect that the Antarctic ozone hole will permanently repair itself, but not before the next appearance of Halley's comet! (in the year 2061)"

www.antarctica.ac.uk/Key_Topics/The_Ozone_Hole/
Global warming - reality or myth? - Screwloose
Baskerville

True; but when do the PBI ever get to write the dispatches... In so many fields; when you chat to those actually at the coal-face, you get a completely different perspective to the one presented in [spun by] the media. Also, whatever the true case may be here, there are many formerly accepted "established facts" now lying in pieces.

That's what was so different about last night's programme. I could see no obvious agenda behind the contributor's viewpoints - in fact, given their positions, they could have made a fair whack out of simply going along with the rest.

The personal vilification of the open-minded is more akin to the Spanish Inquisition than proper scientific rigour. Is greenoidism filling the gap left by the failed religions. [You wouldn't have dared speak against their "established facts" a few centuries ago - but who believes in them now?]

I view global climate research as only being in it's infancy; so when force-fed "new certainties" by closed-minded, quasi-religious, fanatics; I instinctively reject them pending further, more credible, evidence. Something is very wrong with the whole MM CO2 case; and I don't think I'm alone in this view.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
True; but when do the PBI ever get to write the
dispatches...


If it was a report in a newspaper I might agree, but their own website would represent the BAS's views don't you think? If not there must be some pretty disgruntled people working there. That's not to say there are not people in the organisation who disagree. It's a scientific community after all so there will be uncertainty and disagreement. But those are the views of the organisation; to think anything else just boosts sales of tin foil hats.

I'm not qualified to comment one way or another on this with any certainty, but my personal view is simply that using less energy and fewer resources makes sense on all kinds of levels, not least economically. And my experience with animals tells me that when they foul their nests they tend to get sick. I think that idea probably scales. So if GW might be our fault and we could do something about it then given the potential consequences I think we probably should.
Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
In reply to KMO.

You are correct in pointing out the issue of ozone layer destruction as an example of a potentially serious environmental issue where political action on a global scale will solve the problem by the end of the century. Chlorine levels in the lower part of the atmosphere (troposphere) are now falling due to the Montreal Protocol and subsequent agreements. Levels of Chlorine in the stratosphere will take longer to respond (several decades) hence the delay between the cut in emissions and a measurable response. The media has moved on - ozone loss is not sexy any more that's why there is nothing much said about it. Europe and the US are still spending millions on research and monitoring of the global ozone layer in case any surprises pop up.

It seems that humans can act in the best interests of the planet when they have to - but finding alternative refrigerants and aerosol propellants is a lot easier than alternative energy sources for an energy hungry population. Hats off to Thatcher on this one - she saw the importance of this issue (she was a chemist) and, as someone from a mining family, I don't compliment her lightly.

For those who are interested, an unfortunate consequence of global warming of the lower atmosphere by CO2 and other radiative gases is the cooling of the stratosphere. The chemistry that causes ozone loss is faster at lower temperatures so global warming is likely to delay ozone recovery by maybe a decade or so. In fact, the cooling of the lower stratosphere (by ~4K over the last 30 years or so) is one of the most compelling indicators of global warming due to changes to the composition of the atmosphere.
Global warming - reality or myth? - tyro
Ibizadriver

Thanks for your helpful contributions.

Could you clarify something for me? You wrote "It seems that humans can act in the best interests of the planet when they have to - but finding alternative refrigerants and aerosol propellants is a lot easier than alternative energy sources for an energy hungry population. "

Is the issue of global warming really simply about finding alternative energy sources?
Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
HI tyro

I wrote a response to you and it must have timed out. Second time lucky.

IMO energy sources are but a part of the issue. We have to balance the desire of all humankind to want an ever increasing standard of living with an ever increasing population but finite resources to satisfy that desire. Maybe technology will bale us out as it has done in the past, then again maybe not - who knows?

I guess what I was trying to say is that the issue of the ozone layer is an example of how society can deal with problems if the solutions are straightforward and relatively cheap. Dealing with the problem of ozone loss was easy - banning CFCs and Halons did not have major implications for society. As it stands, society is probably not yet ready for the measures we would need to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere to 'sustainable' levels. Might not be worth the risk of economic meltdown which could ensue anyway. As the evidence builds then maybe the world will act in time - self-interest and self-preservation are powerful motivators.

It does my head in at the moment with all and sundry banging on about climate change. Trouble is there's no media mileage in a sensible and rational debate.


Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
"the 1980s and early 1990s the world was going to be destroyed by the ozone layer being destroyed. Result ban CFCs, fit catalytic converters to our cars etc etc. "

It was. The world changed the CFCs used in all - ALL - fridges. That was though to be the major cause of the hole in the ozone layer.. IT was. (it was a joinytly agreed world initiative: and more expensive coolants were used instead!)

Result : ozone layer hole much reduced....

I think you need to read some more:-))

madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Dipstick -

"The maintenance of that approach is likely to lead to a better standard of living for everybody ultimately. Sure, there's still abject poverty and misery. Sure, there are people starving and homeless. But changing my light bulbs isn't going to do much. Paying my way, keeping the UK rich, is likely to deliver much more in terms of technology, basic or advanced to those people."

But is it really so hard to change your lightbulbs? No. So do it - please.

When they blow, just don't put in an incandescent bulb, put in an energy-saving bulb. Where's the hardship in that? Humour me.

Why don't people jus do the really easy stuff and stop kicking up such a big fuss about lightbulbs?

Drive a little less - think of your heart - think of your lungs. Imagine, you're not doing it for the 'green' lobby - you're doing it for yourself. Enough with the bitter resentment.

Buy less stuff with tons of crappy packaging - don't think about recycling - just think, maybe the price will come down. - I'm an optimist!

Let's not have three or four children - let's have one or two and give to charity (if you've still got so much spare cash)

Think positive, look after yourself first but when you've done that - look after others - they might just look after you. (I'm an optimist not a fool)

It's not all hardship is it? Is life so miserable having to use different lightbulbs - even if we find out the planet still burns to a cinder? Really? Is it sooooooo hard?

In the end though, if you don't want to change then you won't. And it doesn't matter how many reasons people give you - you still won't.

I still don't know who's right or wrong but most of the things I'm being asked to do are so petty and small they have no influence on my lifestyle - so I'll do them - it might make a difference - it might not - but they don't offend me so that's what I'll do.





Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
>>But is it really so hard to change your light bulbs? No. So do it - please.>>]

We use energy saving light bulbs (even more so after buying them in bulk at 49p each at Morrisons under a government backed scheme), but there are some areas where they are pretty useless due to the lack of output compared to traditional light bulbs.

For instance, we use two 150w bulbs in the living room - no energy saving bulb can compete as the maximum is a 100w equivalent and even that emits rather less light that the traditional bulb.

There's another problem with the energy saving bulbs in that they can cause frequent and highly annoying interference on both FM and AM radios, portable or otherwise.

Even my hi-fi's radio tuner is affected and it ruins listening to plays, music, debates etc.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - billy25
Hmm, Planets were mentioned in an earlier post, which set Billy thinking! (bear with me, i can be fairly energy efficient in the brain department sometimes!), if Venus orbits the Sun in a smaller orbit than Earth, and Mars orbits on a larger orbit than Earth, and both these Planets are Barren and dead because they have presumably lost what Atmosphere they once may have had. Yet Earth in between the two, still has its atmosphere, and is the only planet that as far as i know has had continual life and evolution up to the present day. This seems to suggest to me, that life-forms producing these so-called Greenhouse gasses are actually resposible for replenishing and retaining our atmoshere, and not damaging it.

Billy
Global warming - reality or myth? - ibizadriver
Hi Billy

You are correct that greenhouse gases are essential for life on Earth as we know it. It is a relatively simple task to calculate the mean temperature of the Earth's surface if you assume no atmosphere and all the heating comes from the sun. Turns out the equilibrium temperature would be about -15 deg C or thereabouts rather than the +15 we have. Difference is mostly due to greenhouse effect so without it we would be frozen solid.

The point is - most of the gases in the atmosphere are not greenhouse gases (N2,O2,Ar). Water vapour, CO2, methane and ozone are. These gases are present in tiny amounts yet the effect is huge (+30C for much much less than 1% by volume) so dramatically changing the concentrations of these gases is bound to have an effect on the temperature. We can't really do a lot about water vapour directly but the others we can partially control if we choose to.

FYI - Venus has an atmosphere which is very rich in CO2 and the surface is hot enough to melt lead - hotter than it should be given it's distance from the Sun. Mars has a very thin atmosphere - but more CO2 than Earth, actually.
Global warming - reality or myth? - boxsterboy
Let's not have three or four children - let's have one
or two


Oh dear. I wondered how long it would be before the Greens started to show their true communist colours. Comments like this smack too much of totalitarian China.

Listen, dear, if we all only had 1 or 2 children, the indigenous population would become a minority to imigrants even quicker than is currently the case. (From a proud father of 3!)

Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud

I wondered how long it would be before the
Greens started to show their true communist colours. Comments like this
smack too much of totalitarian China.


No offence boxster, but: Woof woof!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jonathan {p}
>>
>> Let's not have three or four children - let's have
one
>> or two
>>
Oh dear. I wondered how long it would be before the
Greens started to show their true communist colours. Comments like this
smack too much of totalitarian China.
Listen, dear, if we all only had 1 or 2 children,
the indigenous population would become a minority to imigrants even quicker
than is currently the case. (From a proud father of 3!)


Too true

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm

Also, low birth rates are contributing to this countries pension crisis.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville

Also, low birth rates are contributing to this countries pension crisis.


And here's me thinking it was relatively poor stock market performance since the mid-1990s combined with pension funds being used inappropriately, and the whole boomer generation deciding to retire at 50 or 55. Silly me, it must be because, at age 39, I have one child under the age of five. Somehow I don't think the falling birth rate has impacted pension funds significantly yet. And frankly it's falling now because house prices are so high that people can't afford not to be working.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jonathan {p}
There are a number of reasons for the current crisis.

Its a simple matter of demographics. increase the amount of young people who will work and contribute so that the burden of the aging population is spread. Increasing the young population means there are more young people working and contributing to the economy and paying taxes and saving into the pension funds.

www.thisismoney.co.uk/retirement/article.html?in_a...6

Global warming - reality or myth? - Stuartli
A certain G B taking out £5bn annually from pension funds since 1997 hasn't exactly helped either.

In fact it's destroyed the finest pensions schemes available in the world until that point.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
A certain G B taking out £5bn annually from pension
funds since 1997 hasn't exactly helped either.
In fact it's destroyed the finest pensions schemes available in the
world until that point.



Och, worry not wee laddy, Gordon and his mates have the best index linked pension schemes money can't buy. And there was you nearly fretting yer wee self senseless. Och be away wee yeh.
Global warming - reality or myth? - rogue-trooper
But is it really so hard to change your lightbulbs? No.
So do it - please.
When they blow, just don't put in an incandescent bulb, put
in an energy-saving bulb. Where's the hardship in that? Humour me.


Very upset that the ones (low energy one) don't work with my dimmers, otherwise the whole house would have them
Buy less stuff with tons of crappy packaging - don't think
about recycling - just think, maybe the price will come down.
- I'm an optimist!


Not always possible but I always try to but not for the same reason as you. I personally hate landfill sites.

Let's not have three or four children - let's have one
or two and give to charity (if you've still got so
much spare cash)


Silly. Anyway I would have stuck with two but for personal reason have three. In fact as we have an ageing population I might do my duty and have four or five.
It's not all hardship is it? Is life so miserable having
to use different lightbulbs - even if we find out the
planet still burns to a cinder? Really? Is it sooooooo hard?


I think that the sun might burn us to a cinder rather than light bulbs. As it is becoming a Super Red Giant Star (which it is) it will emit more energy eventually will wipe us out. It is thought that the size of the sun will massively expand as well.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
>angelman
the suns turning into a red Giant is an event which is likley to take millions of years.

pensions crisis?

Ignore the Governmnt schem which relies on current contributions to fund cuurent payments.

The crises on funded schemes where savings buty a pension was largely caused by a toxic combination.
1. Actuaries whose calculations run all schemes: underestimated the life expectancy gains through medical advances.. Result funds thought they had surpluses: they did NOT - when actuaries did the sums properly.
BUT
2. The Conservatives decreed the pension surpluses is any scheme could not be large (5%?) so many schemes - notionally in surplus stopped company contributions. then the actuaries - see 1.. redid their sums
3. Mr Brown taxed dividends into pesnion schems .. £5 billion a year tax take..

Put all three together in THAT ORDER and you get surplsues tuning into deficit. Ad a big stock market downturn....


But if you ask whose was the worst fault: it's plain: the actuaries..

madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"Result : ozone layer hole much reduced....

I think you need to read some more:-))"

I took your advice and found this
www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1710757,00.html
and this
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6077018.stm
Basically - the Ozone hole in 2006 was "the biggest ever" - the reasons for tis are interesting!
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dynamic Dave
If someone could turn this thread into a motoring discussion at some point.......

Preferably before I click on the "make read only" button.

DD.
Global warming - reality or myth? - billy25
hows this then Dave?

Billy?s been thinking again and come up with the (tongue-in-cheek) cure for global warming,
Step 1 ? remove as much of the major natural g/house gasses as possible.

H2o vapour- this is the main g/house gas; man has no influence on or over the production of this gas.

Remedy.
Help remove it by running de-humidifiers!

Co2 is the next largest, and can be formed at room temp by ozone acting on carbon, of which every thing on earth contains, therefore co2 would still be produced in massive quantities even if man suddenly stopped all production of it (hypothetically), also the biggest creators of co2 today are the volcanoes.

Remedy
Plants use co2 as food and to photosynthesise, so grow more, Co2 dissolves in water, so use the water from de-humidifiers, and spray it into the air when watering the plants.

Ozone - O3, mainly produced from ultra-violet light reacting with the oxygen in
Atmosphere. No ozone is produced by car engines or industrial means.

Remedy
Degrades naturally in the atmosphere to O2 ? oxygen, so no problem, if levels start to rise ? take deeper breaths.

Methane ? largest producer is natural causes- mainly rotting vegetation, largest amount of this gas was produced at start of the carboniferous period, at the
Laying down of the coal ?seams. Co-incidentally, most dinosaurs were ruminants, e.g., large cows, which produced more methane than today?s cows do.

Methane degrades in the atmosphere to co2 and water vapour/so treat as above.

Step 2 ? get rid of the ?nasties?

By ?nasties? I mean gasses like CfC?s (chlorofluorocarbons) and the ?Halons?,
These have largely been outlawed in recent years, and used to be in things like Fire extinguishers and aerosols. The biggest nasties at the moment are the refrigerants in a/c, fridges and freezers.

Remedy
Forget about specifying a/c in your new car; get it with a sunroof, and top ?up your vitamin D levels at the same time.
Why use a gaseous system for fridges and freezers? ? Use a no-loss liquid system that can be environmentally?friendly drained and disposed of.

Step 3 ? Live life!
If we all follow the above steps, there will be loads of room up there for all the tiny amounts of Atmospheric pollution that mankind does inevitably produce. Green house gasses/global warming? ? Forget about them, they?ve existed since the dawn of time, and the Earth has survived, Man has only been here 10?000 years or so, and like any other species, only has a finite time on this Earth, when Man is extinct ? the Earth will go on, and Greenhouse gasses/global warming will still be a part of it.
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
Why use a gaseous system for fridges and freezers? ? Use
a no-loss liquid system that can be environmentally?friendly drained and disposed
of.


Do you actually know how fridges and freezers work?
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - mare
If someone could turn this thread into a motoring discussion at
some point.......
Preferably before I click on the "make read only" button.
DD.


Ok.

I drive a R reg Nissan Almera which achieves 35mpg. I can afford a brand new Toyota Pruis or even a Lexus Hybrid, but keep with the Prius.

Which has least impact to the environment?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Least impact - keep your Almera - surely?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
Least impact - keep your Almera - surely?


And while you're about it, keep your Cayenne Turbo or Humvee too.

Cars make a negligible contribution even in theoretical terms, and I think we know what those are worth by now, hmmmmmmm...?

Enough already as they say in New York.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Screwloose
DD

Our car taxes are defined by CO2 emission levels; we're being sucked dry by spiralling fuel taxes to "curb our carbon footprints" and there's loads more taxes riding-up over the horizon. We are in the front-line of the environmentalists attack. Man-made Global warming is the most crucial motoring issue of our time.

If last night's programme was even slightly correct in it's assertions, then this is also the biggest scandal ever to be visited on the motoring public - who's contribution to the alleged effect is pretty marginal anyway.

Nowhere else is the subject being discussed in such a civil and informative way as on this thread. I've certainly benefitted from the knowledgeable input of such a diverse and multi-talented grouping and I doubt that I'm the only one.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
>>I drive a R reg Nissan Almera which achieves 35mpg. I can afford a brand new Toyota Pruis or even a Lexus Hybrid, but keep with the Prius.

Which has least impact to the environment?>>

Even if you drive a 56 plate Grand Cherokee 6.1 V8 Hemi you are better driving it until it falls apart even at 15mpg than buying a Prius on the basis that that particular Prius would not be built (and thus its embedded carbon in manufacture and disposal would not exist) without you ordering it.


Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Further to the last point, as I have posted before:


A small turbo diesel cars like Toyota's own Yaris D4D, a Ford Focus etc contain as much as 50% less embedded carbon (carbon produced in manufacture and disposal) than a Prius and produce a comparably low amount of C02 in use.

However more broadly from an automotive perspective carbon would be reduced more quickly if car production decreased therefore it would be much better if we all continued to drive our current vehicles until they simply stopped running. The maths on this are as follows:

[ [ The amount of carbon produced in manufacturing and disposing of a hybrid + the amount of carbon produced by a hybrid over it's life time ] -The amount of carbon my current car will produce over the same life time ] = The amount of carbon used or saved by buying a hybrid.

If the answer is is a positive figure then that is the amount of extra carbon produced by buying and running a hybrid, for most people the answer will be a positive figure.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
What is the carbon cost of manufacturing a typical car compared to say driving 10,000 miles at 40 mpg which is not untypical for one year of car ownership?
Global warming - reality or myth? - KMO
What is the carbon cost of manufacturing a typical car compared to say driving 10,000 miles at 40 mpg which is not untypical for one year of car ownership?

Grabbing the nearest life cycle analysis I have to hand (from the Toyota Auris brochure), it looks like, over the whole life of the vehicle (how long?), Toyota claim:

CO2: Driving/maintenance = 86%, production/disposal = 14%
NOx: Driving/maintenance = 71%, production/disposal = 29%
NMHC (non-methane hydrocarbons): Driving/maintenance = 88%, production/disposal = 12%
PM: Driving/maintenance = 50%, production/disposal = 50%
SOx: Driving/maintentance = 55%, production/disposal = 45%

So, assuming they're not just making it up, the CO2 from driving seriously outweighs that from manufacture.

For the Prius, the production cost is somewhat higher, but not massively so, and they claim it's more than compensated for by the efficiency. Haven't got their figures to hand though.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
KMO: Thanks. Leif
Global warming - reality or myth? - KMO
But the same applies to any car. Most people aren't making the choice "buy a Prius" or "keep my old car", they're making the choice "buy a Prius" or "buy something else". Either of those options are less environmentally friendly, at least on a global scale, than "keep the old car". But a local scale, if you're worried about smog/asthma etc, it can be a good idea to get the dirtiest cars off the road ASAP.

If you're comparing a Prius to another new car, it's a tougher call. It's certainly more efficient than any petrol car of the same size, especially an automatic, but the situation's less clear against diesel. But it does have much lower local polluting emissions than a diesel (or petrol). And automatic diesels are hard to find.

I got a Prius as a company car for a number of reasons: it uses EV technology (thus by buying it you're encouraging commercial development of battery EVs), it's automatic, it's not a diesel (less noise/pollution), it's extremely efficient, and it's a good size. Oh, and the 11% (shortly to be 10%) company car tax rate and £700 grant (no longer available) totally offset the higher price.

And I reckon the seamless transmission is worth something in itself too. No jerking around while the thing selects the wrong gear...
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
But a local scale,
if you're worried about smog .........


Unless you were around before the introduction of smokeless zones you don't know the meaning of the word!
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/090307warm...m
Powerful UK Documentary Trounces Man-Made Warming Hoax

www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_1-9/2007-...f
The True CO2 Record Buried Under Gore

www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_1-9/2007-...f
What Really Causes Climate Change?(pdf)

www.rense.com/general75/alat.htm
The Great Luddite Hoax Of 2007

environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0%2...l
US CO2 To Soar By Whopping 20% By 2020

www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0%2C%2C2025725%...l
CO2 Output From Shipping Twice As Much As Airlines

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAJaxSURZTo&mode=related&s...h
CO2 Rise Directly Related To Global Warming

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-ma...s
Mars Melt Suggests Solar, Not Human, Cause For Warming

www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-sci-di...t
Warming - It's Enough To Make You Sick

www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082
Dioxide Levels Are At 820,000-Year High

www.rense.com/general75/gorec.htm
Gore...A Convenient Liar

www.rense.com/general75/0223_inconvenient_gore.pdf
The Fraud Of Global Warming

www.rense.com/general75/who.htm
Who's Lying About Global Warming?

www.rense.com/general75/clioma.htm"
Global Warming In A Climate Of Ignorance

www.rense.com/general75/weather.htm
Everybody Talks About The Weather
Global warming - reality or myth? - milkyjoe
an article in my local paper says that the parks department had noticed that they had to cut the grass a bit earlier this year and i quote "because of global warming" ....im having trouble sleeping at night now because of this catastrophic news!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Now that is interesting!

The chap who cuts the lawns round our flats did the first cut this year on the first of March. Last year it was the first of May. My mum, who's also lawn mental, wnated her grass cut too.

The chap here uses one of those petrol tractor things; my mum uses an electric thing.

How many million households is that multiplied by how many extra cuts before we get to where the lawns were frist cut last year on the 1st of May?

I reckon the old boy will cut the lawn at leatst twice here, based on past observation, and my mother will probably do it four times. Most other people on her street have been cutting their lawns too.

So, you see, it has a bit of a bigger impact than just one chap down the parks department!

Global warming - reality or myth? - Dipstick
They won't be using so much heating though will they. Cuts both ways, as it were.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
True - but that won't apply to municipal grass cutting

Anyway, my Mum doesn't switch off the boiler when going out to cut the grass - apparently they are much more efficient (boilers) when they are left on and regulate the temperature without us switching them on and off all the time

And, they're all driving to the garden centres again



Global warming - reality or myth? - Blue {P}
The one about leaving them on all the time is a common urban myth I'm afraid, I've had to try and assist many customers who have heeded this advice and ended up with nothing but a four figure gas bill to show for it! :-)

The best way to run heating is by having a sensible thermostat setting and using a timer so that it's not burning away whilst you aren't in the house.

I have to admit to being a bit of a hypocrit with this one though, my heating system is so efficient, and my house so well insulated that if I'm careful with the thermostat (turning it very low when out the house etc.) I can get away with leaving the heating on 24/7 all winter without getting a big bill.

Blue
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"The chap who cuts the lawns round our flats did the first cut this year on the first of March. Last year it was the first of May. My mum, who's also lawn mental, wnated her grass cut too."

You must have bloomin' sensitive grass round your way if you can measure global warming by when you cut it. Even the IPCC acknowledges that global temps have only increased by about 0.6deg since 1880 and most of this was before 1940.
And you jmust have short memeories because last year, spring was the coldest I can remember for years. My tomatoes and sweet corn were planted out about a month later than usual, and when we drove to France at Whit (motoring connection) it was freezing colsd North winds - and that was end of May. Must have been the advent of the new Ice Age.

--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
I can't really speak for the sensitivity of the grass - although it does go very quiet if I ask it to do anything!

If warmth is a crucial part in grass growth then it's a lot warmer this year because the grass needs its first cut 2 months before it did last year. That's a big difference.

It might have nothing to do with "Global Warming" (Who's to say?) but it has a lot to do with the globe being warmer.
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"it has a lot to do with the globe being warmer."
Really? It probably just means that this year Jan and Feb have been warmer than last year - but not as warm as 1916,
a few quotes
This January is on course to be the fifth warmest in central England for 350 years.
The Met Office began recording UK-wide weather in 1914, with the warmest January since that time coming in 1916.
The Met Office said temperatures had been pushed up by winds blowing warm air in from the west.

Just be thankful you weren't around in 1916 or you would have been pushing a mower around in Feb not March - oh, and if you think that the "big difference" from one year to another is "the globe being warmer" then I don't think you have quite grasped what "Global warming" is. Surely the arguments are about what might happen in the long term - 50 or 100 years - and whether the 0.6deg rise in the last 126 years might be translated into a rise of 2 or 4deg in the next 100 - and therefore whether we need to do something now to "safeguard the world for our children and childrens children".
And from the point of view of this board whether higher taxes on "gas-guzzlers" will have a meaningful effect anyway.
Noticed that all the leaders of the EU who decided that we should stop using ordinary bulbs, and who promote charging us according to CO2 emissions arrived at the conference in bloomin' great MBs. At least BLiar had the good grace to walk round the corner (though he had probably got there by plane, and left his big car parked up)
Even Al Gore , the champion of the "Global warmers" has a house which produces 20x the CO2 of the average american.
Do as I say, not as I do, you peasants!
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
I meant it 'literally' - my grass grows faster and consequently longer when it is warmer - I believe most people's grass is the same

That means the globe - earth to you - is warmer

I only compared this to last year

I have no interest in 1916's temperatures or the length of the grass then

If you can read what I said 'literally' - I did not say my grass being longer was due to 'Global Warming'- I said it was due to the globe being warmer

Why don't you read it again?- rude boy
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
Sorry, didn't mean to be rude but find these 2 concepts ("'Global Warming'- I said it was due to the globe being warmer")
different to distinguish. Must be the wine
Love
Thick boy
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
And you jmust have short memeories because last year, spring was the coldest I can remember for years. My
tomatoes and sweet corn were planted out about a month later than usual, and when we drove to France at
Whit (motoring connection) it was freezing colsd North winds - and that was end of May

>>

phil w - depends where you live
www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/warme...l
www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/index.html
www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/2006/index.html
www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/2006/seasonal.html

and the 0.6C increase in global temp does not mean the same average is seen in the uk.

statistics are fine for people who understand them, but can be a disaster when used by amatuers (as the cot-death babies expert found to his cost).

Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
Grass will not grow below a certain temperature, so an early Spring means cutting it earlier. Generally Spring has been appearing earlier for the last decade or two, relative to the decades before, with many species such as the Speckled Wood butterfly moving steadily more northwards. Yes last year was a cold and late Spring. If this overall warming means that I get less frost on my car in the morning, then it has its benefits.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Hamsafar
When i was a small boy, daffodils were always out on my birthday of 22nd Feb. Not this year. They were last year, but they weren't for around 10 years before that. Global warming is so bad, that there is not enough thermal shock to crack the bulbs open as can be seen from this graph.....
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"Grass will not grow below a certain temperature"
6degrees C
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Thank you Phil

I apologise for my snappiness too - I was feebly attempting to make a joke about the difference between "Global Warming" - the great big thing, the state, the phenomena, the idea, the concept we're discussing on this thread

and global warming - the simple state of the globe being warmer this last month or so, as in the temperature going up and down every day

it wasn't a great joke but I never promised you stand-up!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Vin {P}
Jemima Can said: "I have no interest in 1916's temperatures..."

In which case, if it's a bit colder next winter than this, you'll be worried about global cooling, I assume. What a strange way to look at things. Surely it's long-term trends that matter.

V
Global warming - reality or myth? - L'escargot
Will global warming be beneficial to the durability and fuel consumption of my car? I suspect it might. It's an ill wind ...............
--
L\'escargot.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Niallster
According to the Sunday Telegraph those scientist who argue that any effects on the climate are natural and nothing to do with man are routinely on the end of death threats and physical attacks, they are labelled 'deniers' by other scientists and the lefty press (obviously trying to link them mentally with holocaust deniers) and their funding is cut off.

It would seem the followers of the New Religion are not keen on debate of this issue.

Also Cameron issued his latest attempt to lose the next election.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Vin P - "Surely it's long-term trends that matter"

I think it is the 'long-term' that matters but 1916 - present day isn't long-term - it's only just beyond the average lifespan in this country

I have no more interest in 1916's temperatures over 1917's or 1918's - one swallow does not a summer make!

Is 90 years long-term in your book?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
I belong to a cycling forum, where most of the members are just ordinary types who happen to be enthusiastic cyclists. It also contains a hardcore of anti-car fanatics who are always banging on about global warming with the fervour of religeous fanatics. If they can't persuade someone to agree with them by rational argument they soon turn to personal abuse, and gw deniers are condemned as lunatics and facists in the pocket of the oil companies and capitalist murderers.

One of those who argued against man made climate change was told he should not air his views as he might persuade people to believe that gw was a natural occourance! All those who appeared on the programme on C4 the other night had their pasts googled, and any evidence of smoking, right wing political aligiences, 4x4 ownership and other non pc activities was immediately presented as "proof" that they were mentally deranged and could not be taken seriously.

The gw movement has all the hallmarks of being driven by the human hating imbalanced control freaks, lapped up by politicians who see it as a way of screwing yet more cash from anyone who drives a car.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
"The gw movement has all the hallmarks of being driven by the human hating imbalanced control freaks, lapped up by politicians who see it as a way of screwing yet more cash from anyone who drives a car."

And relaxxxxxxx..... some of 'us'? and really all that bothered about 'cars' and 'motoring' per se - they're just A to B machines really, although some of them are cute to look at and Minis and Moggies evoke memories of better times....drifts off wistfully....

I'm all in favour of less motoring, flying, packaging just excessive consumption generally

Because, when it's gone - it's gone

And I simply and plainly don't believe in reckless waste - that's it - there's no conspiracy -regardless of greenhouse effects and global warming - I just don't believe in being wasteful

We're lucky - by chance of birth, in the right place and the right time - we ought to celebrate that - instead of peeing our good fortune up the wall on spoilers and xenon lights and other pointless pratting about

Now eat all your greens or you'll get no sweet ;-)
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
>>All those
who appeared on the programme on C4 the other night had
their pasts googled, and any evidence of smoking, right wing political
aligiences, 4x4 ownership and other non pc activities was immediately presented
as "proof" that they were mentally deranged and could not be
taken seriously.


One of the contributors to the programme, Prof. Carl Wunsch of MIT, is now claiming that his views were misrepresented and that in fact he does believe global warming is caused by human activity.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
"The gw movement has all the hallmarks of being driven by the human hating imbalanced control freaks, lapped up by politicians who see it as a way of screwing yet more cash from anyone who drives a car."

And relaxxxxxxx..... some of 'us'? aren't really all that bothered about 'cars' and 'motoring' per se - they're just A to B machines really, although some of them are cute to look at and Minis and Moggies evoke memories of better times....drifts off wistfully....

I'm all in favour of less motoring, flying, packaging just excessive consumption generally

Because, when it's gone - it's gone

And I simply and plainly don't believe in reckless waste - that's it - there's no conspiracy -regardless of greenhouse effects and global warming - I just don't believe in being wasteful

We're lucky - by chance of birth, being in the right place and at the right time - we ought to celebrate that - instead of peeing our good fortune up the wall on spoilers and xenon lights and other pointless pratting about

Now eat all your greens or you'll get no sweet ;-)
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
"We're lucky - by chance of birth, being in the right place and at the right time - we ought to celebrate that - instead of peeing our good fortune up the wall on spoilers and xenon lights and other pointless pratting about"

Like slowing down for countrywide speed humps and then accelerating again to a mind-blowing 15 mph before the next one! Like having a government that wants to cut down CO2 emissions (why - what are they proved to have to do with anything?) but thinks it would be a good idea if we all drove around with our headlights on all day wasting fuel and bulb life!

Nothing in this matter is being thought thru. What is Gordon's latest Air Passenger tax going to be spent on? Subsidising clean aero engine technology? I think not! More likely safari holidays for chavs, useless computer systems, a nice big jet for Tomy Bliar or successor to go poncing round the world looking important.

Global warming - reality or myth? - Vin {P}
Jemima: "Is 90 years long-term in your book?"

No, but it's a damned sight longer than your feeble attempt at proof, namely that you've had to cut the grass earlier this year than last year.

V
Global warming - reality or myth? - Sofa Spud
I've never been convinced by the model for explaining that man-made CO2 emissions are leading to global warming. Even less so since watching a flawed (by omissions) programme with scientists busting the myths about so-called man-induced climate change.

We had rising annual temperatures between 1900 and 1949 then they fell until 1975, since when they have been on the rise sagain. This pattern follows almost exactly the level of sunspot activity.

In the 70's some scientists were predicting another ice age on the basis of the falling temperature trend of the time.

Recently there was a report that the largest piece of the Antarctic ice shelf to break off for 25 years was a worrying indication of global warming. Errr...no! (the clue is self-evident in the above statement, i.e. a larger piece broke off 25 years ago!!!)

The last ice age ended less than 20,000 years ago, at which time sea levels were over 150 metres lower than now and most of the North Sea was dry land. 8,000 years ago there was probably still a large island the size of Yorkshire in the middle of the North Sea where the Dogger Bank is now. In Roman times there was an island calles Scillia to the west of Cornwall. Rising sea levels have since inundated much of Scillia, leaving only the higher areas as the Isles of Scilly.

BUT....Amidst all this global warming debate we have lost sight of the fact that the world's oil and gas is being used up at an ever increasing rate and the finite resources end-game is looming on the horizon - so the need for renewable energy, more efficient technologies etc is still vital. North Sea oil and gas is already running out. True, there might be large new reserves to be found around the world but with China and India having growing fuel appetites how long will these last.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Boy does this thread run and run and very well put SS!

This brings us nicely full circle back to my OP. and the point about global warming being blamed for 2006 being the warmest year in the UK on record followed by 1959, 1947 and 1976 with both 1826 and 1779 within the top 10 warmest years since records began 400 or so years ago.

Clearly it makes sense to use our energy reserves carfully however I have an issue with the motorist being soft target for the politicos who justify an ever increasing tax hike as the environmental cost of motoring. Aa I also said in the OP, does a few miles per day in an average contemporary car really make much difference to the planet in the broader scheme of power generation, air travel, livestock farming, commercial air conditioning etc, I really dont think it does, it is simply the case that motorist is BOTH a soft target and a sitting duck.

However just because it is easy to justify targetting the motorist AND easy to hit him/her does not make it right.

More generally there needs to be credibility and realsism in the energy saving messages. Messages like switch the TV off at the wall, unplug your phone chargers, dont over fill the kettle, switch the lights off on the way out, dont leave the tap running when cleaning your teeth, etc are right on line. However these lose credibility in the mind of the average Joe who struggles to afford to run an eight year old car and is told buy a hybrid car and save 3 tonnes of carbon per year, he reads this and thinks he cannot make any difference. Thus unrealistic-for-most motoring messages dilute and detract from the small though important actions that every one can take.

Good debate!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
This brings us nicely full circle back to my OP


the difficulty is that you can take a horse to water but cannot make it drink. you cannot influence people who have deeply held beliefs, and this subject is one of those. it is a human phychological thing as to which minds are open to accepting new ideas after rational discussion. some will not accept change to their beliefs despite overwhelming evidence one way or another. religion, nuclear safety, moon-landing conspiracies, are examples of such subjects.

personally, i accept that there is growing evidence that rapid climate change is happening, and that on the basis of current knowledge, humans are to blame to a large degree. i also accept that there is a small possibility that the large body of evidence for this may someday prove to have been wrong. in other words, i do not have a closed mind on this.

most if not all the "counter-arguments" cited by the sceptics have been comprehensively examined and dealt with in the science community (and also in the recent "stern" report).

for example, the points raised by sofaspud are dealt with here:
www.engr-sci.org/history/climate/20ctrend.htm

but will any sceptic bother to read that - not likely, because if it they did, it might risk changing their closed minds.

Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
There are sceptics on both sides Dalglish, likewise there are closed minds on both sides, what is missing (again on both sides) is the overwhelming evidence that you refer to.

However my main point is the scare mongering, politicians justifying ever increasing out-of-proportion tax hikes as the environmental-cost-of-motoring when motoring plays such a small part in global "green house gas" production.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dalglish
what is missing (again on both sides) is the overwhelming evidence that you refer to.


so in the time you took to reply, you have already read the vast amount of data at the link i pointed to (let alone the stern report or the recent united-nations ipcc reports):
www.engr-sci.org/history/climate/20ctrend.htm
www.ipcc.ch/

Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
so in the time you took to reply, you have already
read


No, though I have had the time to read a fair bit in the past ;-)
Global warming - reality or myth? - Ed V
More 4 is repeating last week's C4 programme, "The Great Global Warming Swindle", tonight at about 10.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Sofa Spud
I might be sceptical about global warming but, as I said earlier, I do subscribe to the doomsday scenario of when the oil and gas run out.

So I run an economical car (TDI diesel, 50+ mpg) and since it has been available locally I have always used biodiesel (5% blend, admittedly, but that's the only dish on the menu round here).

I am also interested in alternative technology and sustainable / renewable energy, which are worthy causes in their own right.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
There is also the issue of energy security. At present we have to deal with some rather unpleasant Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia, which is basically a dictatorship, and corrupt by all accounts. And would we have bothered with Iraq had they not had oil? I doubt it. And then there is Russia which is using oil and gas as a political weapon against its neighbours. These are IMO good reasons to use energy efficient cars.

Actually something that bothers me is that engines have been getting progressively more efficient and yet cars have been getting heavier. The Golf is a good example. Surely if we made lighter cars, we would get better mpg, or do we need all the extra crumple zones and stiffening for safety?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
"Jemima: "Is 90 years long-term in your book?"

No, but it's a damned sight longer than your feeble attempt at proof, namely that you've had to cut the grass earlier this year than last year.

V"

Vin

You give a good impression of either not having read, or not having understood any of my previous posts, and I would hazard, not much of the rest of the debate.

Your answers are so short and curt - are you just a Yah Boo - er? I really don't know what your bug is about - but it's all yours - enjoy! and Yah Boo to you too!

Global warming - reality or myth? - Vin {P}
"You give a good impression of either not having read, or not having understood any of my previous posts, and I would hazard, not much of the rest of the debate."

You should research a little before making blanket statements like that. If you look around the forum, you'll note that I've been involved in global warming debates for probably around five or six years. Unfortunately, that means that I've seen the subject done to death, which might account for the fact that I no longer post reams and reams of text about the subject. You've been on the forum for three weeks, so perhaps after a few years you'll tire of typing page-long responses.

"Your answers are so short and curt - are you just a Yah Boo - er? I really don't know what your bug is about - but it's all yours - enjoy! and Yah Boo to you too!"

I'm more than happy to pad out my posts, but I really can't see the point. Do you really want me to make my responses longer rather than shorter?

As for calling me a "Yah Boo-er", presumably as an insult of some kind, bear in mind the logical reasoning that the competence of the speaker has no bearing on the logic of their argument. The most stupid (or Yah-Booey) man in the world may tell you it's raining; is that a reason to go out without an umbrella?

V

Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"not having understood any of my previous posts"

I'll confess to that Jemima
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
They're still at it on the box, Newsnight ...

No one is totally convincing on this. The public discourse is a polemical struggle.

Pay attention only to proper arguments. Easier said than done of course. Look at all the wild-eyed scientists taking part in the scrum.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Ed V
There is little doubt about global warming, simply the cause, and whether there is anything we can or ought to do about it. It's happened before numerous times, as has global cooling.
Global warming - reality or myth? - midlifecrisis
"There is little doubt about global warming, simply the cause, and whether there is anything we can or ought to do about it. It's happened before numerous times, as has global cooling."

And we're still here!!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
It is my burden..... to be misunderstood.... ;-}

Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Vin, Vin, Vin

"I've been involved in global warming debates for probably around five or six years. Unfortunately, that means that I've seen the subject done to death, which might account for the fact that I no longer post reams and reams of text about the subject. You've been on the forum for three weeks,"

I didn't realise one had to be here for years to have some input - don't expect newcomers to 'read up on you' when they arrive i if you don't want to gove considered replies,or you're fed up of doing so - having been doing so for soooooo long, then maybe you just shouldn't bother - your new to me and I didn't judge you but evidently you form nice rash judgements as quickly as you can

And No, you don't read posts carefull - I said you give 'the impression....' which is not a 'blanket' statement - maybe you are just tired after all these years - have you changed or considered your opinions at all in those five years - you sound stuck

"the competence of the speaker has no bearing on the logic of their argument"

I presume you mean this to say that your argument is logical?

Logicality has no bearing on rationality ----- Reverse your statement

The logic of an argument has no bearing on the competence of the speaker

there are many idiots who can spout logic - they are still idiots

Nuff of this .... either post considered replies to 'the debate' or don't bother posting - i'm not interested in you attacking me because I've only been here 3 weeks (checking up, are we?)

I won't be replying to your attacks again
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
I notice on the normally global warming mad BBC News today that they actually gave airtime to a scientist who expressed doubts about our effect on climate change. That and the C4 programme makes a change to the media attitude we are used to where they accept the doom-mongering as proven fact (which it isn't by a long chalk).

Perhaps the tide is turning and now we will be subject to a proper debate where the doubters are allowed to put their case rather than being dismissed as loonies.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
Let me say this only once.(again)
Anyone who believes ANY politician on global warming without looking at what the politiciand DOES as opposed to what he/she SAYS is a credulous idiot.

(cos politicians lie).

On that basis you can disbelieve most of what the Government says . they are BIG on in your face issues ... tax, windmills etc - and carp on key issues - like saving fuel in homes, driving small cars and flying less. Any politician in charge of a spending department is using more carbon year over year by Government statistics...(and we know about those:-(

So I contend we should do nothing not in our OWN financial interest unil we get a personal lead from our Government.

(on that basis, hell will freeze over first imo)


madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Vin {P}
Jemima: "i'm not interested in you attacking me"..."I won't be replying to your attacks again"

Wow; it's odd, since all I've "attacked" is your arguments. Not you. That's the purpose of a discussion or debate. Don't take my accusations that your argument is weak as an attack on your personality.

Strangely enough, you're the one implying that I'm an idiot, as in: "The logic of an argument has no bearing on the competence of the speaker there are many idiots who can spout logic - they are still idiots"

By all means attack my arguments. Don't attack me by accusing me of stupidity. You don't know me at all, so how can you judge my intelligence?

Accusing me of stupidity while claiming I'm in some way attacking you is not really rational (or, more importantly, pleasant, which is the bit that gets my goat).

V

P.S. I suggest you turn the paranoia off - my "checking up" was just because I hadn't seen your name around before.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Why am i bothering - I said I wouldn't be provoked and reply to you again?

The whole point is you haven't attacked any of my arguments - you just given curt, abrasive, 10 word max. rebuttals and denials of entire political/philosophical positions


That's is not attacking my arguments

That is attempting to belittle and antagonise - that is attacking me -

You - still - give no impression of having read any of my comments - so I don't know and cannot tell - exactly what 'arguments' you 'claim' to be attacking

Why else would you link my part in the debate with the fact I've only been contributiing for a short time?

Why?

That is attacking me.

And DON'T call me dear!!!! Mr Sophisticated! Only attacking my arguments - yup - That's right.

You have not attempted any detailed response to the debate while I have been on the forum - I am not going to search out your opinions when you approach a debate in the off-hand manner that you do

Like I said - if you're fed up of arguing your position because you've been doing it for so long - you know what you should do

Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
And DON'T call me dear!!!! Mr Sophisticated! Only attacking my arguments - yup - That's right.

I apologise - that wasn't you - it was someone else
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
"it was someone else "
Might have been me - you did call me "Rude boy" (boy? - old git more like)
Sorry love

--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
ha ha ha

leave it aht darlin'
Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
OK me duck

I've opted out of this Global warming debate - it has become far to politicised with every politician using it as a "vote-winner", every one of them trying to outdo each other as "the saviour of the planet" while doing nothing themselves to reduce their or their department's own carbon emissions, suggesting new taxes which just penalise the easy targets (motorists, people going on their annual holidays), travelling the world by air to make speeches about the threat of global warming(Al Gore), living in huge houses which are "carbon inefficient" an use 20x the energy of the ordinary citizen(Al Gore), imposing ridiculous regulations on all of us (those damned light bulbs which take an age to warm up, are too dim to read by and don't last as long as they say - yes I've tried them), and then claim all their travel expenses to their place of work, - House of Commons, first class - while the rest of us have to either pay huge taxes on our cars/air travel or slum it on a carpy, crowded, filthy, late, public transport system.
I am a sceptic and remain so, especially since by the time disaster hits us and sea level has risen 6 ft (it has risen 6 ft since 1400 - did you notice how it wiped out the human race?) and temps in Southern England have risen by either 1.5 (or is it 6?) degrees - I will be dead.
Sod the future - I have one short life on earth - I don't care what happens in 100 years, I don't want a politician telling me what will happen in 100 years (just look back 100 years - did they know what today's "life" would be like?)
"I've opted out of this Global warming debate "
That didn't last long!!
--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Tony Bee
This was a brilliant discussion until someone let that woman in !!
Global warming - reality or myth? - cardriver
I must confess I have reservations about the contributing factors as to why the world is getting warmer and can understand the argument that states it is a natural phenomenen and has been seen in the past.
I don't believe we can continually just exploit our resources though and also agree with phil that the leadership we get from our politicians is diabolical.
Not once have we had any joined up legislation proposals to tackle the issue if it is a problem and they just seem to dive from one problem to the next with the excuse they can tax us more for the privilege.
As an example, circa 15 years ago we were all told that all cars had to have catalysts fitted which increased the price and subsequent share of tax on the new purchase price because of smog, acid rain and respiratory problems would increase if we did not. Then we see favourable tax conditions for diesel cars that until recently increased the emmissions that cats removed from petrol cars and with many makes continue to do so. Once everybody starting buying diesels, the fuel tax started to increase and now the next round of eu legislation is going to hit diesel engines hard. All the while we see measures introduced with things like speed humps and out of town shopping centres that increase our fuel usage. I am not saying that improving the emmissions standard is bad - I am just saying that it is about time the law makrs started to think in a joined up way. I am also wary of the panic they try and spread so we support their approach - last time it was CFC's that were putting holes in the ozone layer and causing global warming - what happened to that theory.
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
>Cardriver
CFCs? Read the thread!!!
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Vin {P}
JC,

Well, you'd have been proud of me. I wrote about a page pointing out that I wasn't attacking you personally (I hardly know you!), just your arguments. My debating points were erudite, compelling and elegant. Even you, dearie*, would have been impressed and swayed into total agreement with me, such were the subtly convincing logical structures I fashioned.

Then I lost it because of the snarling farging bushwacket time-out on posting.

So, you'll just have to imagine it.

V

* joke.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
Vin - compose it off line in Word or whatever and then cut and paste it into the forum! In this way your input will not be lost to those of us who need and value it!
Global warming - reality or myth? - cardriver
>Cardriver
CFCs? Read the thread!!!
madf

Ooops - well corrected madf - I missed all those posts - I think all this heat is having an effect on me.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
God do shut up.

Don't you people ever sleep?

There is very little of value that a lay person can say on this subject.

(Lay person=not a priest or nun or monk) :o)
Global warming - reality or myth? - madf
>Lud
I thought this thread was doing its bit for global warming ... the amount of hot air is quite impressive:-)
madf
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
You can say that again madf, but it might be better if you didn't under the circumstances.

I think it heroic of you to have held off making that comment for so long.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Vin

ha ha - that'll teach ya!! - I know the feeling well

I didn't see the C4 climate change programme that everyone has been talking about, but George Monbiot -

(I hadn't even heard of this guy before reading this thread - but I know a lot of people have strong feelings about him) -

had an interesting Comment piece in the Groaniad - seems reasonable enough to me (a non-expert - with no particular axe to grind - other than 'anti-wastefulness' and general good commonsense :)

environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,...l

Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Well George Monbiot is not one for sitting on the fence!

Yes, this thread is titled "Global Warming - reality or myth?", on which point I find myself sceptical, yet to be convinced.

However to bring it back to motoring, whatever side of the global warming argument you are on is it equitable that the ever increasing tax burden on the motorist is justified as the environmental cost of motoring when motoring plays such a small part in the production of so called "greenhouse gasses"?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
>>>"is it equitable that the ever increasing tax burden on the motorist is justified as the environmental cost of motoring when motoring plays such a small part in the production of so called "greenhouse gasses"?"

That's an interesting point but (ooooh I can feel that chopping block feels a little bit rough against my neck - could do with sanding... hey ho!)

If we start at >>>>>>"is it equitable that the ever increasing tax burden on the motorist is justified"

My car tax is £175 a year at the moment and over the course of my driving lifetime it has been much less and will probably be much more - so let's take an average of £200 a year ? for say 60 years ? that?s £12,000 in road tax.

What proportion of the price of petrol is tax? About 60% - it has been less and it will probably be more ? but let?s say 66% just for good measure

Let?s say a gallon is £4.50/ 90p+ per litre and I do about 5000 miles pa and get about 50mpg ? that?s £450 per annum so over 60 years that?s £27,000 and the tax would be 66% so that?s £18,000 in petrol tax

And of course there tax on the cars you buy and on the insurance policies and so on, but the biggest proportion is, about £30,000 for 60 years driving or £500 a year in tax

I don?t think that?s too bad really, ? I paid more in a year on cigarettes when I was a smoker

I must have missed something out!!!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Mr.Tee43
I don't know if this question has been brought up earlier on in this thread and apologies if it has.

What is all this " Carbon " tax going to be spent on and how is it going to help, thats asumming that you believe that man is reponsible for global warming at all
and I don't.

The tax will be pitched so politicians can look as though they care but not too much as to actually reduce car / air travel or anything else.Take smoking as a parallel
case.

So I ask again, where will the money go !

And isn't it a bit hypocritical that in 2012.we are going to have thousands of people travelling to London from all parts of the earth just to see a few people running
around a track and throwing a few objects ?

When you add up the cost in money and if you are a believer in global warming, the cost in carbon terms of actually building the olympic site and associated projects.you have to ask, is it worth it

Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
Yes, I think you have! You can't average out road tax, or any tax, over 60 years without taking inflation into account. Also, when the population of China and India all want cars and can afford them, the oil price will probably be over $100 a barrel and will never ever come below that again as world demand will oustrip economic supply. At that price it will be worth extracting it from the Athabasca tar sands but you will live to see £2+ per litre, and more, although I shan't!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Inflation!!!!


Although those motorists who are around the 50-60 + age group (assuming they've been driving 30 + years), even accounting for inflation, have had very cheap motoring lives indeed, and are unlikely to come out with an average as high as mine

The good old days - long gone now....

Inflation has to take into account the increased cost of what the taxes are spent on too, so actually - is that not just relative???

And my pay will be inflated too - so no, inflation actually doesn't figure
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
Lucky you! Inflated pay! I live on on some laughably small pensions which increase annually at about 1/3rd of the rate of inflation in the real world. Parking at my local station has gone up from £5 a day to £9 a day in 12 months, which is an extreme example but there is anothing I buy regularly which has got cheaper in real terms vis a vis my income, in the lats 12 months. Some politician, probably Conservative, said some years ago that there were 2 things not to be in UK. Old or sick! I agree
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dynamic Dave
Yes, this thread is titled "Global Warming - reality or myth?",


It's been so tempting for me to abuse the use of my edit button and substitute the letter W and m in 'Warming' for the letters Y and n instead.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
fastest finger first
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Global yarning? Excellent, a tall tales contest.

I remember when I were a lad...
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dynamic Dave
Global yarning? Excellent, a tall tales contest.
I remember when I were a lad...


Damn, I meant to have also said to substitute the 'r' for a 'w' as well.

And I'm the one with an edit button!! God knows what it would be like if you lot had one as well.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Lud
How about 'yawping' while you're about it DD... honestly there are limits comrade, knowImean...
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
Is this the forums longest ever thread?

And how much damage has it done to the environment?
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Dynamic Dave
Is this the forums longest ever thread?


Certainly is. Previous record was held by Murphy The Cat and his Chrysler 300C. Something like 260 replies before I split it into separate volumes.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
Global yarning?

Well I have tried to steer it back to motoring on a couple of occasions.

Global warming - reality or myth? - PhilW
Simple question chaps.
I keep hearing about "carbon trading". Way I understand it is that if I drive my car "too much" and use too much carbon, I can buy carbon credits from someone who does not use his "allocation" of carbon. How exactly does that reduce the amount of carbon produced? Even Milliband said it the other day - "Gov have set a target of reducing carbon emissions by 60% by 2020. But if they fail they will be able to buy "credits" from "less carbon producing countries"". Does that reduce carbon emissions? Am I missing something, am I being incredibly thick??
Thanks in advance ffor your sympathetic and understanding explanations.

--
Phil
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Simple question chaps.
I keep hearing about "carbon trading". Way I understand it is
that if I drive my car "too much" and use too
much carbon, I can buy carbon credits from someone who does
not use his "allocation" of carbon.


Not quite. There are several ways of doing this, none of them a long-term solution.

It could be that to make up for your own emissions you invest in forestry, or in schemes to research low energy building, or low carbon fuels. This is known as offsetting.

Carbon credits are slightly different. It might be cheaper, for instance, to build a massive wind farm in India than pull down Drax and build Sizewell F. Doing so would (arguably) reduce the global carbon output, but would not reduce the UK's output. In paying for the wind farm in India the UK could claim credit against its own homegrown emissions.

Finally straight carbon trading depends on each producer of carbon being allocated a limit, which hasn't happened yet. If there can be agreement on how much carbon each of us is entitled to use then it could be a way of staying within the guidelines overall. It doesn't reduce carbon emissions per se but it can create an incentive to cut down. An example of trading might be that our neighbour's household (1 adult and 1 child) is unable to fit all her rubbish for a fortnight into one wheelie bin. Our household (2 adults and one child) only uses half a wheelie bin in that time. So we put her overflow into our bin and as a bonus we get to make sarcastic and self-satisfied remarks about it at every opportunity. Two households produce two wheelie bin loads either way you look at it, but if we charged her for putting her excess in our bin then she would have an incentive to produce less waste.
Global warming - reality or myth? - No FM2R
As I said about 3 million posts ago, one of the few things that makes me determined to believe that Global Warming does not exist, is people like Jemima telling me it does. Repeatedly. A lot. Over and over again.
Global warming - reality or myth? - cheddar
one of the
few things that makes me determined to believe that Global Warming
does not exist, >>


I am open to the view that it exists, as per the the following:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6456897.stm

However I am sceptical as to the cause and whether we mere mortals can really make much difference.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Altea Ego
Has anyone consdiered the contribution to global warming this thread has created?
Its now some 300 + entries long and takes an age to read, consuming vast amounts of electrickery, thoughts and comments are duplicated, again consuming vast megawatts. Add to that all the hot air and methane expelled by some of the contributers, and here, enscapsulated in our small world, is the cause of global warming,

Close this thread now I say, and save the planet

------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
Close this thread now I say, and save the planet


The thing about this thread is that although it is huge, keeps popping to the top of the Backroom agenda, and is something to which I have contributed more than my fair share, I don't believe any of it is my fault. In fact I doubt it even exists.
Global warming - reality or myth? - geoff1248
In many years time someone is going to say "I told you so!"--wonder which side it will be?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
The beauty of being a denier is that you can never be proved wrong, because if it is going to turn into a catastrophy like the doomers say we will all be dead. Only we can say "I told you so...".
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Baskerville
a catastrophy like the doomers say we will all be dead.
Only we can say "I told you so...".


It's true, and the Chinese start a new "Global Warming - reality or myth?" thread EVERY FIVE MINUTES!!!! IN CHINESE!!!!! How will locking this thread help with the looming global crisis?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
>>>> " people like Jemima telling me it does " >>>>>

Gosh!!! -- people like me - what are they like I wonder?

You can't have read my posts very thoroughly - I don't know / or say whether it exists or not

But I just don't endorse wasteful, priggish, prattish irresponsible behaviour - so there!

I don't believe in 'wasting' anything - petrol, oil, metals, money, life -

I didn't 'tell' you anything - but if you are the sort of person who does the opposite of what common sense would tell you to do - just for the sheer bloddymindedness of it -

then I hope global warming does exist - just so you can choke on your humble pie - course "your kind" never admit when they're wrong do they? - That's 'your' point - isn't it?

Sitting comfortably in the 'old boys' club? cigar sir? wake you up for dinner sir? not to worry sir? won't affect us sir?
Global warming - reality or myth? - Robin Reliant
Jemima has summed up global whinging for me. It is a religeon, and those who "believe" really do hope it exists because it's purpose is to punish the rest of us for leading carefree lives which they can't understand. That's why it's disciples foam at the mouth when their fundamentalist theories are questioned.

There is no room for disent, there is only ONE way, mother nature will get you, etc etc.
--
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
Yawn... she'll get all of us eventually ... I wish I had the kind of mind which allowed me to live a carefree life too

ignorance is bliss eh?

The truth is - I haven't come down one way or the other - but you guys - I certainly don't want to be associated with your closed-mindedness - I'm happy to live life normally
Global warming - reality or myth? - Leif
"There is no room for disent, there is only ONE way, mother nature will get you, etc etc."

The extremists on the GW side are not the scientists but the nutty hard core bunny huggers, who were born and raised in a yurt on the edge of the Greenham Common airbase. Something I can't stand is people who try to bully others into submission. There are two GW sceptics at work who are otherwise very pleasant, but get rather aggressive if someone dares suggest that they are not themselves a GW sceptic. On R4 I heard Gabriel Walker, a science correspondant, winging on about how she had seen GW with her own eyes. No she hasn't. Scientists cannot say that any specific event is due to GW. All they can say is that there is warming. I dislike her emotional irrational adherance to GW as unappealing as the hard core sceptics ranting.

I suspect that most of us do not really know, and so have to make a choice based on the media's presentation of the 'facts'.
Global warming - reality or myth? - No FM2R
>>>> " people like Jemima telling me it does "
Gosh!!! -- people like me - what are they like I wonder?


Very, very boring.
You can't have read my posts very thoroughly - I don't know / or say whether it exists or not


Very true, I do not read your posts carefully. I find I lose the will to live around the second line. But I certainly find your ntoes irritating enough that I would far rather you were wrong. Therefore The idea that Global Warming does not exist is attractive,.
course "your kind" never admit when they're wrong do they?


Should it ever happen, I will let you know. I find that avoiding spouting on stuff about which I know nothing tends to lower the chances.

Global warming - reality or myth? - midlifecrisis
I see that that the credible organisation known as 'The EU' is intending to force Germany to reduce its autobahn limits to 80 mph to 'reduce emissions'.

We apparently throw away 20% of our food (mainly gristle and fat according to the report) and this waste food decomposing 'increases greenhouse gas emissions'

So there you go....another reasoned report by the environmentalists! Alleged climate change doesn't scare me, but the fact these idiots are in positions of power does.
Global warming - reality or myth? - Armitage Shanks {p}
Balanced counter-argument here, suggesting that the doom merchants are overstating the position.

tinyurl.com/26afcb

Global warming - reality or myth? - milkyjoe
global warming?....snows been forcast for next week!!
Global warming - reality or myth? - Jemima Can
8< SNIP

Comments removed as they bear no relevance to this thread. Some relevant comments after this posting may well have been deleted in the cleanup process - which were unavoidable.

And whilst I am at it, this thread is now locked because, as far as I am concerned, the subject has been exhaustively discussed.

DD.

ps, if further global warming discussions should start up and have no connection with motoring (in case you hadn't noticed, this is a motoring forum) then they will simply be deleted without notification
 

Value my car