Also my client asked me whether I was a rap singer in my spare time!
And are you? ;-)
--
L\'escargot.
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Our local Thrifty car hire centre had a 300 available for hire - jet black - when I drove past this morning.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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The bugbear of Chrysler has always been quality. Older jeeps are often in a dire state and the less said about the Neon, the better! Hopefully the diesel engine and transmission, being MB-sourced, should be OK. Its whether things like electrics and other traditionally weak areas (air con) hold up in the longer term. The car is sold in low numbers in the UK and has attracted niche interest. As more used examples become available then prices could weaken a lot if there is not more general appeal. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out for Chrysler.
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>> Also my client asked me whether I was a rap singer >> in my spare time! And are you? ;-)
Depends how much I've had to drink ;-)
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Unfortunately build quality is dire and this was also true of the 2 others I've hired on previous visits to the US. With 2000 miles on the clock the leather seats in this particular example were already fraying along the seams. I don't know whether European examples are better in this respect.
Times fairly short today (making up flat pack furniture), but I'll TRY and answer all of your posts / questions step by step.
The build quality issue is a good one. In America, there were a few initial issues on component quality (the transmission WAS a weakness at first) and over the other side of the Atlantic, build quality seems to be of the acceptable level and then any glitches are sorted out by the dealer.
In the Uk, it seems to be a different story. The cars that are amde in Magna Steyr (Austria) seem to have been put together with better glue and the robots seem to have a better eye for lining things up properly and then giving them a bang with a big hammer to secure them in place.
Granted, the dashboard hasn't been hewn fom an oaktree, but it fits tight, doesn't rattle and does the job !
Sooooooooooo. To date.
Build quality very good.
I'll be back later (double cupboard to construct first !)
MTC
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Apart from anything else that is said about the car and its build quality etc,i find it quite refreshing to see them out on the road and not looking like an identikit Eurobarge in silver,and for now,and probably for the next few years i'm sure they will have a better residual value than its main Euro competitors.
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I have to say that this thread has been one of the most refreshing and funny ones that I've read in the Back Room for a very long time, I've had a really good laugh reading through this!
I have to say that I hope that the depreciation curve speeds up a bit, not good for you MTC. but it'll bring forward my ownership of one of these beautys by about 10 years :-)
Blue
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I agree with you.
Design wise, that's the problem when you make something very distinctive - folks either love it (mostly they do) or hate it (see above). But at least they're not bland eurobarges (fill in any brand you like here).
My latest comment from a stranger ? "It's about time that Bentley brought out a decent looking sports saloon - well done lad, it looks grand on you" - and then I told him what it was.
MTC
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A bit of an update for you on the depreciation front.
Someone that I know has just moved his 300C on.
The car initially cost £28000 (incl extras) and 11 months and 11500 (entirely trouble free) miles down the road, he has just sold it privately for £25600 via AutoTrader. He is absolutely delighted at that and I can't blame him for being happy either.
MTC
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A bit of an update for you on the depreciation front. Someone that I know has just moved his 300C on. The car initially cost £28000 (incl extras) and 11 months and 11500 (entirely trouble free) miles down the road, he has just sold it privately for £25600 via AutoTrader. He is absolutely delighted at that and I can't blame him for being happy either.
>
Well I think he would be happy to have got that price as you can now buy them brand new(see best deals today) for under £23k
I really do like the 300C, having driven them in the USA, but IMO the resale values will drop off very quickly now.
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Well I think he would be happy to have got that price as you can now buy them brand new(see best deals today) for under £23k I really do like the 300C, having driven them in the USA, but IMO the resale values will drop off very quickly now.
Are you sure ? I found offers for the Touring and the Petrol saloon, but nowt for the CRD saloon (except for list price).
The other heartening thing for 300C owners is that the guy who sold his car for £25600 said that his phone was red hot with people who wanted to buy it - so (in his case anyway) the demand from Joe Public is still there.
MTC
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Well I think he would be happy to have got that price as you can now buy them brand new(see best deals today) for under £23k
I really do like the 300C, having driven them in the USA, but IMO the resale values will drop off very quickly>> now. >> Are you sure ? I found offers for the Touring and the Petrol saloon, but nowt for the CRD saloon (except for list price). The other heartening thing for 300C owners is that the guy who sold his car for £25600 said that his phone was red hot with people who wanted to buy it - so (in his case anyway) the demand from Joe Public is still there. MTC
You didn't say anything in the post I referred to about it being a diesel.
Drivethedeal were advertising the diesel here:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=3558
Chrysler 300C Touring 3.0 V6 CRD 5dr Auto £25567 Save £2183
Anyway if I had the choice between this:
Chrysler 300C Saloon 3.5 V6 4dr Auto £22804 Save £3446
and your pal's 1 year old diesel costing £2,800 more it would be a no contest.
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You didn't say anything in the post I referred to about it being a diesel. Drivethedeal were advertising the diesel here: www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=3558 Chrysler 300C Touring 3.0 V6 CRD 5dr Auto £25567 Save £2183 Anyway if I had the choice between this: Chrysler 300C Saloon 3.5 V6 4dr Auto £22804 Save £3446 and your pal's 1 year old diesel costing £2,800 more it would be a no contest.
Fair comment - I KNEW that I was was talking about the CRD - I just didn't share that info well with anyone else !
BTW, the car that my friend has just bought is one of those oh so sensible, low depreciating, proper, Ultimate Driving Machine BMWS & he's absolutely chuffed with the deal. The previous owner lost £22500 oin his BMW 650i in the 14 months that he owned it - nearly enough have bought himself a 300C !!
MTC
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The novelty value still hasn't worn off. These cars are still head turning monsters and totally look the bomb (translation: looks rather tasty) in black with the Bentley grille, tints and the right wheels. Not sure about the estate though.
Just moved office, closer to the station and further away from the free and easy parking. Damn. And it still won't fit on my drive. Double damn. I still really want one, in black, with the Bentley grille, tints and 20" wheels. Only question still to resolve is CRD (head) or Hemi (heart).
Continue to enjoy MTC, i'm very jealous
mare
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What would this have cost new?
tinyurl.com/32ydg5 {link to Autotrader website shortened as was previously screwing up the page width of this thread. Also the postcode changed to one offered by Autotrader to hide posters location - DD}
Probably be worth another 5k without those wheels!
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Oops!
{Now sorted - DD}
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.....I still really want one, in black, with the Bentley grille, tints and 20" wheels........
I fear, Mare, that you´ve just described Murphy´s car, sending his smugometer even further off the scale.
I´m still enjoying driving my Astra, and wouldn´t fancy a 300C touring. Not one little bit. Honest.
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Buy a 530d you know it makes more sense. You won't want to sell it so depreciation is just another annoying word. Seriously I'd want a Hemi and make SWMBO pay the fuel bills.
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The diesels are doing OK, but even CAP are reporting this month that the "bubble" has burst and prices are now moving down in line with the market sector. UK spec V6's are now down to £20k although the CRD's are still £23-24k even at auction. V8's can be had for similar prices as the V6.
I suspect it will continue to do well which will delight Chrysler although it is still a niche car and if they get greedy an extra 2000 units could see a price tumble.
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.....I still really want one, in black, with the Bentley grille, tints and 20" wheels........ I fear, Mare, that you´ve just described Murphy´s car, sending his smugometer even further off the scale.
Close, but no 20" (monostaer wheels) on Arnie - just the bog standard Pirelli shod 18" jobbies
MTC
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What would this have cost new? tinyurl.com/32ydg5 Probably be worth another 5k without those wheels!
It's hard to say isn't it ? It's a grey import, in LHD, with the unpoular engine, 2 years old, in an alternative colour - I think taht he would do well to get what he's asking for it
MTC
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If the car in question is a US market version then you could import a new one for about £20k including VAT and Duty.
I like the 300/300C a lot in the US and have done many miles in various examples but I'm still not sure I'd want one in the UK - they work very well in the US but I can't help but think they're just too big and squashy for UK driving conditions. They may also be relatively cheap to buy but they are also made of some very cheap components in some areas too.
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Saw one today parked up in the neighbourhood. Metallic grey saloon with the Bentley grille. Fantastic looking car. Still turns heads.
It gets my vote because it is a lot of car for the money , and although big, it looks the business.
A refreshing change from the usual suspects in the big car market.
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>>300C looks superb on the outside, but inside - forget it... fake wood, cheap plastics, big thin steering wheel, stupid American-like climate control knobs.
Sure, it may be good value for money, but it's no match for the Germans. It simply doesn't belong to the premium class.<<
Fake wood, cheap plastics... could be describing something german or american - the problem with most people is that they dont get a good look and the deterioration over time of a wide variety of cars - as a valeter I do and I can tell you that Mercs, VWs and BMWs are no more durable dealing with your average family useage than anything ive seen from Chrysler.
Plastic wood and metal appears in many german cars and the quality of the finish is only skin deep - doors especially suffer from wear on handles and sill plastics mark very easily, to comliment the average quality carpets. VWs are especially poor as the door handle finish falkes off by around 20k. Impressive? I think not.
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Well the depreciation starts now, I saw a stretched 300C today.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I like the 300/300C a lot in the US and have done many miles in various examples but I'm still not sure I'd want one in the UK - they work very well in the US but I can't help but think they're just too big and squashy for UK driving conditions.
This is a regular thing taht motoring journalists come up with, the 'mushy and unsporting handling', but oddly enogh, one of the things that the owners of 3200C's really like is the hugely comfortable ride that soaks up the stresses and strains of everyday driving. I'll be the first to admit that it would be a complete pig on a racetrack - but then again, if I wanted a race car I would have bought one !
MTC
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The 300C reminds me a little of the 1st generation LS400 (which I had and enjoyed). I haven't tried one in the UK so it may work better than I expect. One thing I have noticed however is that although the ride is quite good the shell doesn't seem very stiff - on US examples large ruts (on the usually awful US roads) seem to send a rather old fashioned shudder through the whole shell more as you'd expect from a previous generation car than a current one.
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The 300C reminds me a little of the 1st generation LS400 (which I had and enjoyed). I haven't tried one in the UK so it may work better than I expect. One thing I have noticed however is that although the ride is quite good the shell doesn't seem very stiff - on US examples large ruts (on the usually awful US roads) seem to send a rather old fashioned shudder through the whole shell more as you'd expect from a previous generation car than a current one.
When I first saw an imported one in a showroom eons ago, I mistook it for a Lexus with a 'funny bodykit' as well.
As regards the body shudder, I've driven a Hemi & a Hemi Magnum in America and I agree with you, but its something that I've not been troubled by in the UK.
MTC
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A comfortable ride and decent handling is possible, it used to be a hallmark of Jags before the Mondeo parts bin was raided.
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Quite what biased drivel that's meant to be I'm not sure. Just had a 2.2D X Type Premium Sport on loan whilst the S-type was in & it handled very well, with a ride that was very good, especially bearing in mind it was riding on 18" wheels. Very impressed, would have had one instead of the S but the wife's snobbery got in the way, both of the X & the estate!
And Mondeo handling & ride is very good in all forms, normally top or near of it's class.
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2.2D? That's a sporting car without a doubt. Did it have lots of power? Where did you test it? Cadwell perhaps? With all due respect, the laughable X-type is a wannabe car and the S-type is for old men ... so that's my next car then.
You're confusing idiot-proof FWD with the ultimately (in the right hands) superior characteristics of RWD.
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The mondeo parts bin is a fine place to start. They have excelent handling and ride.
Traditional jags had appaling handling
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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For once, I agree with TVM - the Mondeo is a very good handling car and as such, who can criticise any car company that uses a highly rated drivers car as a basis for their own?
I perceive the Phantom as one of the best luxury cars money can buy, so would I complain if another company based their platform for a luxury car on it? I think not.
If badge snobbery means that you should drive an inferior product, one should assume that along with the snobbery comes idiocy along with it.
I wouldnt buy a Mondeo because dealers are patchy in their customer care and they arent foolproof reliability-wise, but as cars to drive, I think they are well up there.
Id certainly consider the X-type - Jaguar are far better at customer service, so its more like a Mondeo with its shine on yes?
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Surely the issue is not whether the 300C is a fine car, but will the low rate of depreciation experienced since its launch continue.
Historically the only cars that have had really low depreciation, or even their price appreciate, has been when the manufacturer has restricted supply.
The waiting time for delivery of a RHD Mercedes in UK was up to 2 years. So even 1 year old models sold above list price. £thousands were made by those who had the foresight to order well ahead; even more by those who could get them tax free, pay the import duty and VAT, and sell them.
Mercedes increased supply of RHD cars and the depreciation rate increased.
Morgan similarly restricted supply and similarly had zero depreciation ? on a Morgan!!
The only thing that has kept the 300C from depreciating at least as fast as other cars in its sector is scarcity. Personally I have little doubt that if supplies are increased, values will plummet.
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Surely the issue is not whether the 300C is a fine car, but will the low rate of depreciation experienced since its launch continue. The only thing that has kept the 300C from depreciating at least as fast as other cars in its sector is scarcity. Personally I have little doubt that if supplies are increased, values will plummet.
I think that you're right and that eventually we will have the 'day of reckoning'.
But the reason for my initial post was the all knowing doomsayers in the Motoring Press getting the issue of depreciation so totally wrong (& still repeating the wrong information to this day).
MTC
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">I think they are well up there. <"
But it's FWD, so ultimately the nose slides and understeer wins the day. OK for most car users, but proper car drivers prefer RWD.
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>TVM: Traditional Jags had appalling handling.
Can you tell us which Jags?
Mk 7/8/9 1950-1960. A Mk7 won the Monte Carlo Rally on at least one occasion and they were production car raced with some success.
Mk 2/S-Type 1959-1967 Again rally and circuit race successes.
XJ6/12 1969-1992. Voted best car on numerous occasions by magazines and motoring writers. XJ-C was also raced by Leyland/Broadspeed.
C-Type - Won at LeMans 3 times, I think
D-Type - Won at LeMans too
E-Type - Regarded as one of the best handling cars ever
XJ-S Same chassis as XJ6/12, with Magic Carpet ride.
Oh yes, Mk 1, or 2.4 and 3.4 saloons. 1955-1958. Narrow rear track led to some instability, especially with extra power of 3.4. This was never a problem in my 2.4.
So one model out of about a dozen, for about 3 years out of 40 had some undesirable charateristics. The vast majority of classic Jaguar drivers would disagree with your statement.
My 1984 XJ12 is my sixth Jaguar since 1972, having had Mk7, Mk7M, Mk IX, Mk1 and Mk2 before.
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E-Type - Regarded as one of the best handling cars ever
you are joking right? they were regarded as dangerous. I need say no more
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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At best, E-types are hairy! But XJ saloons handle brilliantly for the size of car and with a ride quality only matched by a Citroen CX.
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E-Type - Regarded as one of the best handling cars ever
>>TVM:you are joking right? they were regarded as dangerous. I need say no more
No, please, I want to know, who regarded E-Types as dangerous? Is that dangerous as in Triumph Herald, or Chevrolet Corvair, or Porsche 911? Or just dangerous as in 16-year-old doesn't realise just how fast he is going? Was it only Series 1, or are Series 2 and 3 just as dangerous? Perhaps it was 200+ hp on crossply tyres and single piston brakes and poor headlights. But that was only for Series 1 cars.
They must be truly dangerous, as they are worth next to nothing these days, you just can't give them away. I'd sell my Granny for one, even if they are more dangerous than she is.
Sorry to hij@ck this thread, but I couldn't let such an outrageous statement go unchallenged.
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Didn't Mr Clarckson & Co, (or maybe anothr TV prog) have an updated & uprated eE Type, which certainly hilighted the 'built to a price' original model?
& I'd still have a 300 Tourer, without a second thought, if I was in the market for BIG estate!!
& looking at the prices in This Weeks Best Deals, it'd be a bargain!!
VB
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That was dangerous as in "try to kill the motoring journos of the day" and several of the first buyers.
Yes it was poor suspension, skinny tyres, narrow track, APPALING brakes, and far to much power.
As I said dangerous, and not as you inferred, sweet handling, so we agree on that one then
Dont go off on one tho, nowhere did I mention desireability. Would have I have a pristine Series 1 that I knew would make a widow of Nicolle? Bet your boots I would. Sexiest car made.
Dangerous? it makes them desireable!
But please, dont make out jags were superb handlers. Never were.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Dangerous? it makes them desireable! But please, dont make out jags were superb handlers. Never were.
TVM,
they weren't that bad........what you say is correct, but you need to compare like with like and compare the standards of the day........an early 60's E Type compared with anything else of that era wasn't bad at all.
my step-father used to race/ hill climb E Types in the late 60's and early 70's & to start with they were all virtually bog standard......the pile of cups in my old dear's loft says he must have been fairly successful....so they can't have been that bad
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I must say I like the looks. As for complaints about lack of wood:wood is for boats and vintage cars. I've had a few with wood and frankly it's for elederly drivers who cannot afford to join a club in London or live outside: all for show and no action: unless you call the obligatory revarnishing required after 10 years deterioration from sunlight.
Leather smells nice, but it makes slidy seats: burns in the summer and frozen bums in the winter.
Nothing wrong with a nicely finished plastic and metal dash.
I'd rather the money was spent on the engineering unlike mid 60s-80s Jags which had wood and leather and the rust protection of a mid 1970s Fiat .. and whose relaibility made a pre wr car look attractive.
To judge a 300 on those criteria isimo the sign of soemone firmly living in the past..
As long as they keep going, are reliable , fun to drive etc I would have one.
Having said all that, I read about second hand Jeeps. If they are like that, then no thanks..
(I had a Mark3 XJ6 and for a big car it went very well and handled excellently...but compared to a Mercedes 260E the build quality was .. atrocious..Mind you it has a wooden dashboard so that's all right .. it must have been high quality!:-)))))
madf
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I forgot to add: yes a Early E Type handled badly. But the best handling UK car of that era was a Lotus Elan. I had a standard one: and the handling by today's standards was ho-hum.
Remember this was all nearly 50 years ago and standards have improved.. a lot...
An E series Mercedes on the 1980s- early 1990s is a nice car to drive but drive it hard in the wet and it's a handful imo... (bet you never read that in the road tests)
Times have changed.. to judge a 40 year old car on current standards is just plain wrong....
madf
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Well, Peugeot produced some great handling cars twenty years ago, namely 205, 309 and 405, and I think they would still stand up quite well with modern cars.
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If the 300C is hard to get hold of, why are drivethedeal.com offering it with a discount of over £3500?
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> If the 300C is hard to get hold of...
I suspect the truth is more like it WAS hard to get hold of for a little while three months ago but these fashion blips don't last long. I remember when the PT Cruiser was launched there were reports of people paying over the odds and even of fights over the last one on a rental lot. Now - well, I don't want a three-month-old PT Cruiser at any price but I suspect I could buy one with the loose change I'd find in my sofa.
Fact is that cars depreciate, new cars depreciate fast and while a very few cars manage to depreciate less quickly, I can't see the 300C, whatever the supply problems, remaining in that group for long. MTC evidently likes his and that's fair enough, but I suspect the chance to cash in on it has been and gone.
As for Chrysler restricting supply in the UK, it sounds more like they've realized that the 300C is popular in Eastern Europe (where customers wear those big fur hats over their ears and so can't hear the comments of passers-by >;---) ) and so they're building for that market instead.
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If the 300C is hard to get hold of, why are drivethedeal.com offering it with a discount of over £3500?
The big discounts are being offered on the HEMI 5.7lt V8 and the V6 petrol and also on the less popular Touring (estate versions)------- although, saying that, the first "GENUINE" discounts are now appearing at brokers and DC dealers are at long last breaking the price as well on CRD saloons (not by a great deal, but breaking the prices none the less).
Also, the loooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggggggg waiting lists of last year appear to be disappearing. The wait for a CRD saloon is now a lot shorter that it was last year.
It may be that the times are a changing !
MTC
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to judge a 40 year old car on current standards is just plain wrong
Question number 1
Which car had better handling
A: 1959 BMC Mini
B: 1961 Jaguar E type
Question number 2
Which car won three monte carlo rallies in the 1960's
A: A jaguar of any description?
B: The mini
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Question 1 and 2 relate to 40 years ago,
Case proved
:-))
No relevance to Chrysler 300...:-)))
madf
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Question number 1 Which car had better handling A: 1959 BMC Mini B: 1961 Jaguar E type Question number 2 Which car won three monte carlo rallies in the 1960's A: A jaguar of any description? B: The mini
Answer 1..... not really a fair comparison.....you are cherry picking one car......the mini was always an extremely good handling car.......but very unsafe in an accident, did your back in over any kind of bump, pokey to get in and out... etc, etc...compare any kind of late 50's/ early 60's sports car/saloon car with an E Type
Answer 2,..... A Jag did win the Monte Carlo, (not 3 times admittedley) 1956, a mk VII.....crewed by Ronnie Adams and Frank Biggar... which is an amazing achievement really when they've never been designed for that sort of thing....
Furthermore look at the success of the mark II in saloon racing in the 60's......it was virtually untouchable at that time.
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Question number 1 Which car had better handling A: 1959 BMC Mini B: 1961 Jaguar E type
What, at 130 mph around a long sweeping corner? The Jag, every time.
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Rather you than me Micky.
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It's OK, I'll wear my safety glasses ....
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....and make sure your last will & testament is up to date!
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Yes.
I'm not certain how the E-type ended up in this thread, I was considering the XJ series as a fine example of a decent ride quality with good handling, none of this "bobbling" nonsense caused by incorrect spring rate and poorly selected dampers yet no wallowing in the style of a hippo.
There are very few BTCC cars today that could catch a Leyland/Broadspeed Jag at, say, Snetterton. Until the Jag broke down of course :-( :-(
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"Leyland/Broadspeed Jag" or a Quakerstate XJ12 !
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"Leyland/Broadspeed Jag" or a Quakerstate XJ12 !
Yes! The Jag V12 was such an under-used engine, 550bhp+ in touring car tune, and the XJC was very understated and very British (can I type that here?). Usual BL problems, outstanding concept but let the customer do the R&D. Oh dear, I'm going to rant ....... No, no, the moment has passed.
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I'm not certain how the E-type ended up in this thread.
Me neither, but its all great knockabout stuff.
I was out repping in my car yesterday and left it parked outside a cafe while I had a brew. (quiet little road side cafe, not a motorway services).
In the time that it took me to drain amug black coffee, 14 people had had a right good look over the car - the most common thing being to get right close to the grille badge to check out what the car brand was (I think).
Naturally, I can't say if they liked the 300C, or disliked it - but they were all curious enough to have a closer look.
MTC
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Love it or Loathe it. No one can dispute it has presence. Its never not going to be noticed.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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the 300C gets my vote........for the sheer presence..........my first thoughts were Bentley wannabee.......but in all reality is that a bad thing.......i know nothing of the interior quality... & any trips i've had to the States have amazed me at how dire some of their stuff is, so i'd want to check that out.
it's definitley a head turner and i consider it to be a positive thing........one of the reasons i went for an S Type..ie. not much else looks like it..........(sneery types liken the S type to a Rover 75......so what, that's a good car as well)
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MTC said: "I was out repping...."
"Rapping", surely?
V
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">14 people had had a right good look over the car<"
But who would buy a car because people looked at it? Surely anyone with taste would buy a car for agility, the ability to make good progress on twisty British roads, and a general sense of decorum and modesty? In other words, a gentleman's car. Which rather rules out the Jag with its caddish image. The hideous Bristol perhaps? Errr..... Ho hum.
Still, each to their own.
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">14 people had had a right good look over the car<" But who would buy a car because people looked at it? Surely anyone with taste would buy a car for agility, the ability to make good progress on twisty British roads, and a general sense of decorum and modesty? In other words, a gentleman's car. Which rather rules out the Jag with its caddish image. The hideous Bristol perhaps? Errr..... Ho hum. Still, each to their own.
Perhaps a sticker - "my other car is a Hummer"
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I though LJKS was dead? Oh, my mistake, the Bristol remark gives it away!
JH
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"> I though LJKS was dead?<"
I am honoured, if only momentarily. I've tried to admire Bristols, the concept is good, they are very British (except for the powerplants) but the styling is very idiosyncratic. Perhaps I should look past the styling and concentrate on the function and the uniqueness.
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