Do what extent does stopping and starting an engine is bad for it??
For example yesterday, trip to post office, 1 mile away stop engine. Post office to supermarket- 8 miles stop engine. Supermarket to home- 8 miles stop engine. Home- friends 5 miles stop engine. Friends to cinema- 3miles stop engine. Cinema- home- 5 miles stop engine.
Which means i've started the engine 6-7 times in a day. Does this kill the engine a lot??
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Providing you use a decent oil filter (with oil retaining valve fitted) and you do not do too many short journeys from cold then no problem.
Anybody that goes to work will start and stop at least 4 times a day as with school runs and kids taxi's etc.
What you describe above (except for PO trip) will give the car time to warm up properly.
My handbook suggests that 5 miles will get the car warm (it says regular trips under 5 miles will need an interim oil change).
If you are worried, changing the oil more regularly will also help.
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The biggest problem is that by doing lots of short journeys you're not getting the oil hot enough for the condensation and moisture it collects to evaporate. Over time, this will affect the oil's ability to do its job. Most manufacturers recommend more frequent oil changes on cars that do lots of short journeys for this very reason.
When you start an engine, you also have a brief period where the top of the engine receives no lubrication apart from the oil that has collected there from the last run. When you turn off your engine, most of the oil returns to the sump under gravity. When you start the engine, the oil pump has to pick up that oil and pump it around the engine, which takes a couple of seconds even on a healthy engine.
It's not a coincidence that most engine wear occurs in the first few seconds after startup. It won't kill your engine as such, but don't expect 100,000 miles of troublefree motoring if this is all the car is used for.
At the very least, give the car a good run (20 miles+) as often as possible to get the oil nice and hot.
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As an extreme, my milkman said only last week that he was getting through two starter motors a month on his wagon.
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SWMBO's 106 diesel has done over 40k miles with an average journey length of 1 mile. Engine wise it's original apart from hoses and front and middles exhaust sections.
Annual oil and filter changes make it like that. And 2 cambelts.
(all DIY)
madf
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As I understand it, diesel engines cope a bit better because they don't need to run rich when cold. On a petrol engine, repeated rich running can cause bore wear as the petrol removes the oil film from the bores.
That's what I was told once - whether it's true, I don't know.
Cheers
DP
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Tokyo, I once did 130,000 miles on housecalls. About 30 stop starts a day, sometimes just a few hundred yards. ( engine temp never showing normal in winter and often not registering at all)
No problems or extra wear evident in 6 years.
Just change the oil and filter every 6 months regardless of mileage.
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Recently I read the results of a survey and 6% of all journeys was less than 20m. That's right 20 metres! Moving the car off the drive to let another off, getting the car in/out of the garage, correcting a parking mistake, etc. This is what kills an engine.
From what you quoted you are doing is typical for an urban car. I would always advise doing an "Italian tune up" every few days - rev the engine hard to accelerate fast in low gears. This will help stop the bore getting polished from only using low revs, helps clear out any build up of carbon in the cylinder, pushes out any debris from the exhaust. Besides its also great fun to do. In my diesel it always pushed out a cloud of black muck, and then it always runs clean.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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I was under the impression that the 'Italian tune up' was beneficial for diesel engines. Does it have a similar benefit on petrol engines?
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It's cold starts that are bad, not how many hot starts, that's why taxis last so long despite starting and stopping, it's because they rarely get chance to cool down as they're out all day, get home, and swap places with their brother who was in bed all day and the car never cools down to cold.
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So as long as the engine temperature doesn't reach the cold (last bar) it doesn't really matter?
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>>> .... This is what kills an engine. ...
which, as aprilia says from in his considerable experience, , happens very rarely indeed.
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It's a shame it doesn't get one decent run (say 20 miles plus) each day. That would help to evaporate off a lot of the condensation nasties put into the oil on the short runs.
At least you aren't doing really short runs - 20 yards!. They are said to be killers of the catalytic converter, apart from the condensation and neat petrol on the bores. Some cars even have a device that prevents re-start in these circumstances.
Don't economise on oil filters - use a proper one with a non-return valve, to stop the oil draining back into the sump each time you stop.
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I does have a dual carriegwaqy run of about 10 miles there and 10 miles back every Saturday if this helps??!
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As I stated earlier in the thread, your driving pattern is not far from normal for most other drivers. By the way, the Italian Tune Up also works wonders with petrol engined cars.
IMO the main killer of cars is lack of use. Not using it enough allows corrosion to start in places where movement should keep it free like bearings, oil and brake fluid absorbs moisture, the engine never reaches working temperature, the battery never gets fully charged, the thermostat never opens, the water pump seizes, etc. All of these lead to an unreliable car.
So, my advice is stop worrying about a problem that is not there. To look after your car, take it for a good run once in a while, either visit a town further away to go shopping or have a day out somewhere - you will also enjoy the change and driving your car.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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IMHO Its the *evidence* thats needed.
Sure, we all have opinions, but I would like to see the evidence of engine damage due to short trips ( or otherwise) when cars are serviced to manufacturers instructions. ultra short trips would be *severe service* needing more frequent oil and filter changes.
Has any tech/engineer seen extra wear or damage when *book* requirements for servicing have been met?
Also how many short trip cars are fine despite short cold engine trips?
I suspect that modern oils and contemporary engines are so good that this is no longer an issue when serviced according to the book.
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Despite the comments from others.
There are a lot of cars with excessive wear at relatively low milegae. No 1 major reason but a combination of poor maintenance, too little or wrong oil (especially too thin imo ), too little use (causing condensation, and resultant internal problems) and no mechanical sympathy.
There is no substitute for using the correct oil, for the type of use, changed frequently, and using the car for distances where the engine can get to full working temperature. That correct oil is different for the same car sometimes, depending on its use !
And yes I have seen engine problems on newer vehicles, despite being regularly serviced by the main dealer ! Reason? I have my opinion and I am confident I am correct but others who read more than me will no doubt try to prove I am wrong as they always do.
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>>I have my opinion and I am confident I am correct but others who read more than me will no doubt try to prove I am wrong as they always do.
If you find that your opinions are being questioned, and don't like it, then,
a) this is a good thing - it's healthy. No-one has all of the answers, this forum thrives by debate.
b) putting your opinions in a less forceful, and more consultative manner might stop people getting their backs up
c) get over it - nobody's opinion on here goes unchallenged - not even HJ's
Number_Cruncher
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Correct, its healthy i dont mind being questioned ! But i do hate being told that 1 bit of information applies to everything !
I dont feel I am any more forceful than alot of others but i dont get upset, if I have upset anyone , let me know and i will re read it and apologise if necessary.
I must be getting over it I keep going !
Way too thick skinned to be put off!
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Do what extent does stopping and starting an engine is bad for it??
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Continual 1 or 2 mls journeys with no "long runs" will cause damage in the end.
However most cars can stand a bit of "short trip" misuse - look at all the Civics & Jazzs about 5 yr old with 25K town miles
What cannot hack short cold journeys are Mazda RXs and some older Jags - taking the car out of the garge to wash it & put it back has beenthe death knelll of quite a few XK engines and the AA call out to RX8s that will not start after such small trips
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Car in question is a Golf VR6 with 100k on the clock. I do of course do the odd mway journey, but not on a weekly basis. Just dual carriegway is on the weekly basis.
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I am assuming you are not the first owner of the Golf VR6 as it has 100k on the clock. A performance engine of this calibre should, once warm, be used to near full revs on a regular basis.
It was originally set up to perform, and over time it would have lost a small percentage of its performance capability, but will still be in middle life provided it has been maintained correctly. You have no idea if a previous owner has run it when it was low on oil, when wear could be be increased due to a higher concentration of small particles in the oil and the oil being slightly hotter than if correctly filled.
You will probably never know all about the car's past, even with full service record. There may have been accident damage that was repaired to a high standard. A head gasket or cam belt might have failed, but details were not passed on. All of these events can have an effect on a car/engine life expectancy.
My advice would be to have a strict oil change policy every 6000 or 8000 miles. My own car abides by this (it's on 92,000 and 5 previous owners) and I expect it to last a good many years yet. Also it will depend upon how long you expect to keep this car. If you expect this specialist Golf to become a collectable classic, then maintain it to the highest standard as you are looking after your investment. If it is not in pristine condition this may not apply. Also the older it gets it will become progressively more expensive to insure for a new owner because of its powerful engine and this might depress the car's value.
Personally, just enjoy the car for what it is - a beautifully made piece of engineering. I doubt your usage pattern will affect the engine's life at all. The car will more likely be killed by an expensive repair (new clutch, gearbox, exhaust, ECU, etc.) or structural rust at an MOT.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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"Continual 1 or 2 mls journeys with no "long runs" will cause damage in the end."
Given that Swmbo's car has lasted 13 years of short journeys, I expect you are incorrect. rust (in the main longitudunal members unseen, ) , an accident or major expense will probably do for it.. But if it does last another 13 years, I'll post what state it's in.
Meanwhile it starts , goes and stops and does 55mpg....What more can anyone want of a town car?
:-)
madf
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>>"Continual 1 or 2 mls journeys with no "long runs" will cause damage in the end."
No. I will accept that:
"Continual 1 or 2 mls journeys in an Austin Cambridge with no "long runs" will cause damage in the end."
"Continual 1 or 2 mls journeys with no "long runs" in a Morris Minorwill cause damage in the end."
Nowadays, the engine is the last item in the car that will still be running. Whoever killed an engine? A cambelt might go, but that's not the engine's fault. the cat's demise isn't the engine's fault.
Tosh; living in the sixties, the lot of you. Indulge me, please and permit me to shout a question for one moment.
WHO CAN CLAIM TO HAVE SCRAPPED A RECENT CAR AS A RESULT OF ENGINE DAMAGE? Cambelts don't count.
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1 engine failure this week so far!
Golf 1400
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