Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - artful dodger {P}
Yup, Ken Livingstone is set to raise the Congestion Charge in 2009 to £25 for Band G cars.

This is after extending the in charging area in Feb 2007. Surely this is not a charge but a tax.

I will never drive in central London during the week any more as the CC and parking charges are too high. I wonder how many other people who live outside London feel the same. Shops, theatres and dining establishments will find a drop in custom.

I wonder when the CC will be charged at weekends?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6146442.stm


--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - barney100
Couldn't agree more, i will not drive to london at all now to give Ken his CG. I feel I pay my road tax and that should be that. Not much of the road tax goes on roads anyhow.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Dave N
I make a point of telling my customers in the charging zone that I will charge them £12 extra. £8 for CC, £4 for admin. Most complain bitterly, but it wasn't me that voted him in.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - peterb
"Couldn't agree more, i will not drive to london at all now to give Ken his CG"

One could therefore argue that it's working! (Although £25 seems punitivs)
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - UncleR
"Couldn't agree more, i will not drive to london at all now to give Ken his CG"

One could therefore argue that it's working! (Although £25 seems punitivs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---


I agree - the whole idea is to prevent people driving into London so if people say they will stop then it's working.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - v0n
I make a point of telling my customers in the charging
zone that I will charge them £12 extra. £8 for CC,
£4 for admin. Most complain bitterly, but it wasn't me that
voted him in.


They didn't vote him in either. The system kind of did. Only one in ten Londoners voted for Ken during last elections. It was solely down to the bizarre "primary votes, secondary votes" and "no second round if no majority vote" rules....
--------------------
[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Hamsafar
Why anyone would want to go to the wholly unpleasant Central London, let alone pay to do so, is beyond me.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - David Horn
Surely someone who can afford a 4.4l Range Rover and the fuel won't mind paying 25 quid? So this effectively penalises people on low incomes who might drive older, higher polluting cars. What a stupid tax.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - henry k
Surely someone who can afford a 4.4l Range Rover and the fuel won't mind paying 25 quid?

>> So this effectively penalises people on low incomes who might drive older, higher polluting cars.
What a stupid tax.

>>
And people like me who keep an older car running because I believe overall it is greener than scrapping it for a "newer" version.
So my choice is to just pollute the perimeter of the CC area and I assume the pollution always drifts outwards so thats all right then.

Shopping in London? Forget it. I will not even be thinking about it.

Hospital visits, public transport not an option? Well tough, pay up! What a wonderful world!

P.S. latest bill to date for Ken and his boys trip to Cuba etc. £36K and counting. So thats all right too!
Various figures "Livingstone 'wasted £36,000 on Latin American trip'
"KEN Livingstone has revealed his stop-over in Cuba and aborted trip to Venezuela cost Londoners a "modest" £29,637.


Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - KMO
Pay attention at the back. Band G only applies to cars registered after March 2006. So it won't actually hit "older, higher polluting cars".
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - henry k
Pay attention at the back.

>>Thanks for the clarification.I
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Dave N
Why anyone would want to go to the wholly unpleasant Central
London, let alone pay to do so, is beyond me.


Couldn't agree more, it's hole.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Lud
Why anyone would want to go to the wholly unpleasant Central
London, let alone pay to do so, is beyond me.


Straordinary fellow....
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - daveyjp
The fact that band A and B cars won't have to pay anything shows this is no longer a congestion charge, but a CO2 emission charge. People now go out and buy band A and B cars and clog up the road thereby increasing congestion - pathetic.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - midlifecrisis
I think this suggestion may be a good thing.......hopefully it'll focus the minds of Londoners and persaude them to vote this morally corrupt baffoon out!
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Stuartli
>>to vote this morally corrupt baffoon out!>>

Along with the government ministers etc many of whom are still using "gas guzzling" vehicles as ministerial transport, yet tell the man in the street not to do so...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Dalglish
.>> .....hopefully it'll focus the minds of Londoners and persaude them to vote this morally corrupt baffoon out!
>>

unlikely, even with his recent £40,000 wasted jouney to meet his "bestmates" castro and chavez who jilted him.

the people who vote him in are not those who pay the congestion charge. as long as there is a majority of ethnic and underclass population in london, livingstone will win handsomely every time.

the congestion charge works as is demonstrated in the first few replies to this thread. the result of very high charges, and by law of unintended consequences, will be that as in the old soviet communist era, the roads will be mainly for the chauffeur driven ruling classes in big limos or 4x4s.

Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - David Horn
Out of curiosity, are politicians exempt from the charge?
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - type's'
>>Out of curiosity, are politicians exempt from the charge?<<

No I do not think they are.

They will jsut claim it back of us as travel expenses.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Altea Ego
I live 30 miles on the outskirrts of london. I go into London regularly on business and pleasure. I have never had to pay the congestion charge. No one else has to either so whats the big deal. London is about the only place that has decent enough public transport to get away with it.

Why not go the whole hog. Ban cars completely - ah no tax income

So everyone, do what ken wants, dont drive in and dont pay the tax. see what he does then.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - retgwte
it is particularly offensive for drivers with automatic transmissions, many of which have knee problems or similar - the reason many drive auto's in the first place

if you look at a list of typical family cars with auto transmissions you will see many are in surprizingly high groups

this already causes issues with car tax

really for people with minor health problems like this there should be a fairer tax regime in place
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - madf
I'm sorry. Anyone who lives or works in London.. with all its ridiculous house prices.. and its excellent transport system.. and who then drives a car inside the City is nuts..At those prices, a taxi is economic.


It has been obvious for three years that the congestion charge will be increased.. so why complain ...re-arrange your life to avoid it.
Anyone with a big 4x4 deserves as much sympathy as they give to the environment..



madf
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - henry k
I go into London regularly on business and pleasure. I have never had to pay the congestion charge. No one else has to either so whats the big deal. London is about the only place that has decent enough public transport to get away with it.

Oh thank you. An example of one big deal.
I was ferrying my recently deceased brother for treatment to and from London medical centres in my old auto Mondeo. Dear dear Ken would be charging me £25 a trip. Obviously I would have payed double that or more in the circumstances but it is just not acceptable to be taxed for hospital visits, planned or otherwise.
Public transport certainly was not an option and I live 15 miles from central London.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - sierraman
Not much of the road tax goes on roads anyhow.

that's because it's not road tax,hasn't been since the 1930s.it's a vehicle excise licence,i.e.a tax on car use.
Roads are funded by the treasury(national) and council tax(local).
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - David Horn
Hmm. Assuming 250,000 vehicles a day enter central London 300 days of the year, at £25 a pop that equates to... erm, actually more than this pocket calculator can handle.

After fetching my scientific calculator which can spit out the answer in exponential notation, that's 1.25x10^9 pounds. Enough for 41,000 Cuba trips. He's going to be rolling in it.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Peter C
What happens when everyone is driving the charge exempt cars? Seems to me congestion will be the same as before the charge.

Peter
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Honestjohn
According to the May 2006 VCA New Car Fuel Consumption and Emission Figures there were then ten petrol engined cars and twenty four diesel engined cars that emitted and presumably still emit less than 120g/km CO2. If they are now as exempt from Ken Gesture Tax as electric cars like the G-Wiz, that actually makes some sort of sense even though CO2 emissions from motor vehicles remain less than 0.03% of all CO2 emissions. Now that Chelsea will be part of the Ken Gesture Tax zone, Chelsea tractor prices are plumetting. See Monday's auction report.

HJ
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - DavidHM
However if I were a BMW dealer with a couple of X3 2.0 diesels in stock, I might be feeling rather pleased with myself as that's in Band F - and the RAv4 2.2 180 is in Band E.

But there will be a lot of people who object to paying £5k a year (i.e., £8,333 before tax) to run a low mileage 4x4 in London - if only because it makes a depreciation-proof, 15-year old Range Rover as expensive as a brand new, leased X3 - whereas before they could live with the poor fuel consumption due to driving only 3,000 miles a year.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - tyro
Does this mean that London will soon be comletely congested with Lexus RX 400h's everywhere?
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - madf
It means London will be congestion free so Ministerial cars can drive away to their hearts content.. as benefits our lords, masters and superior beings.. :-((((


Until we vote them out..

:-)))))

madf
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - DavidHM
As a plutocrat, I will now be debating whether to get an Audi A8 3.0d, BMW 730d or Mercedes S320 cdi.

All Band F (surprisingly, the 730d emits the least CO2 ) and just the sort of vehicle to annoy Ken.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - No FM2R
Why is Ken after taxing the poor ?

If he wanted to stop cars he could ban them.
If he wanted to ban 4x4/Guzzlers/whatever he could ban them
If he wanted to discourage them he woudl charge £1000 congestion charge and then give licenced exception to nurses/covenet garden/whatever

Instead he wants to raise revenue, so he's making it as high as possible, but wants to maintain the pool of potential revenue, so he doesn't make it too high.

If I take the Landcruiser to London to work for the day that's £40 odd in fuel, £20 odd in parking, £n in depreciation from mileage and anyone thinks £25 will stop me ? Of course it won't. What it will stop is the people who cannot afford the price. And what it will hurt is the shift-workers and/or lower paid who find themselves without a choice.

Livingstone is an Ass. He's just a very presentable, polished and intelligent ass. Unfortunately.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Snakey
Personally speaking I would never visit London again, by car or otherwise. The stinking attitude towards motorists has put me off for life. So my next mini-break weekend will be to York, Edinburgh or abroad - taking my spending money with me!

I thought ken was supposed to be a socialist? Seems the congestion charge is making London a play area for the richer drivers.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - madf
"I thought ken was supposed to be a socialist?"

But he is.

He supports loony causes and drinks champagne.

QED.
madf
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - daveyjp
York isn't far behind -expect a car ban in the city centre within a few years. The park and ride servcice is excellent though.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - KMO
Odd how it's always the people who say they can afford it who claim it's "taxing the poor". Nonsense. It's taxing you. That's why you're bleating.

You'd be amazed how many poor people don't drive Landcruisers into London...
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - No FM2R
>>It's taxing you.

That's correct. That is also what I said. However, Ken insists its not a tax. Ken insists its to discourage cars coming in to London.

However, it is a tax I can afford since it is n% of my salary. And anyway, most of the time my company pay it. However, if my salary was half what it is now, then it would have an effect upon me of 2n%. If my salary was 1/10th then it would impact me 10n%.

Therefore the lower my salary the bigger the impact.

Therefore;

1) Its a tax
2) it hurts lower wage earners more

Is that a little clearer ? I did try to write it slowly to minimise your confusion.

Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Roger Jones
And there's a handy term for that: it's a regressive tax. Those of a socialist persuasion normally worry about that and try to avoid it. Funny that, given the penchant for trips to meet "inspirational" socialist leaders in the Caribbean and South America.

As for K. Livingstone esq., I've met him twice and never want to do so again.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Lud
As for K. Livingstone esq., I've met him twice and never
want to do so again.


Are you sure that Esquire is accurate RJ? I heard the little brute described as the Lord Mayor yesterday, perhaps on Sky News but may have been the BBC. Perhaps someone's trying to kick him upstairs...
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - artful dodger {P}
No FM2R, I agree with your deductions that it's a tax and it hurts lower wage earners harder.

Congestion charging was introduced on 17 February 2003 by the Mayor of London and was designed to reduce traffic congestion in central London by encouraging people to use public transport rather than private cars.

It started life as a flat £5 charge, now raised to £8. In February 2007 it will have an increase area where charges apply.

The latest proposal means it will no longer be a charge to reduce congestion, as this seems to have been achieved. It is now proposed to make it an emmissions based charge. In any language this must be considered to be a tax. The diplomats who are refusing to pay at present have just been given the biggest justification for withholding payment.

What does surprise me after 3 years of operation is how so many people just accept the Congestion Charge as part of daily life.

There must now be many other councils eyeing this scheme to see if they can make it part of their tax raising scheme. There is little difference between a congestion charge, an emissions tax, a road toll or road pricing - they are all intended to raised money above their cost. Or to put it another way they are a tax, one that cannot be easily avoided, as motorists are a soft touch in an economy that requires freedon of movement.


--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Altea Ego
There are a number of issues to consider here.

As a congestion charge it has a number of elements and by its very nature (reducing congestion) also reduces polutants in london. No one can deny either goal is a bad one.

1 To work it needs to be punative. £5 was never punative, £8 is not punative. £25 is punative
2 To continue to work it needs to stay punative so needs to increase at least in line with wage inflation.
3 You have to accept that as your goal is less traffic, the direct result is rapidly falling, and thereafter continual low revenue from your charge. If you keep a high level of income your charge is not working and needs to be increased to higher and higher levels to the point your income collpases. At that point your congestion charge is working and you have achieved the desire of less traffic and less polution.

By having "tiers" in his charges, it is no longer a congestion charge. It is now blatantly a source of income, describing it as anything else is a lie. He knows that at £25 his income would collapse so not everyone will be paying that fee.

As the "charge" is now obviously a source of revenue that needs to be protected and is tiered, it is now a TAX.

------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Honestjohn
In Hong Kong and Singapore they simply impose a colossal registration tax on cars. Something like £200,000 in Hong Kong for a £12,000 Toyota Crown taxi, according to a Hong Kong taxi driver. The streets are remarkably traffic free. But public transport works, whether metro, surface tram (100 years old), big buses, small buses or taxis. Or feet, of course. I'm not suggesting any such thing for London and could not agree more with No FM2R's assertion that what we have is a tax, not a 'charge'. I'm simply pointing out that it's 'worse' in other cities and they have better public transport. Curiously, there is also an astonishingly well run and well patronised state run public bus service in Northern Ireland.

HJ
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - nortones2
In London, only 10% of passenger transit volume is by private car. Despite the roads being clogged to insane levels. And to forestall the "provincial" jibe, I have spent many a frustrating day trying to travel through and into London, It seems to be a small minority who are causing this normous congestion on the tarmac. Therefore they should be dissuaded. Preferably by non- regressive taxes, but the comparatively poor don't try to get into London by car, do they? Mostly the bankers, brokers, and pokers I'd guess:)
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - drbe
Has it been explained how this is to be administered?

If I take my gas guzzler into London and pay £8, will the software run my number plate and then determine that I should have paid £25?

What happens next? Do I get another bill/penalty charge through the post?
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Bromptonaut
And how ill it work for pre 2001 cars that have no CO2 rating?
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - almac
Curiously, there is also an astonishingly well run and well patronised state run public bus service in Northern Ireland.

There is currently talk of allowing some of it to be opened up to competition. Oh dear!
Alan
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - autumnboy
Those who can afford Band G vehicles in London just for the sake of having a thirsty big vehicle to be up on one and to travel 2 miles to the office, 1mile to the gym and 100yds to the school. Would'nt feel any diffrence @ £25/day it should be £50/day, then they will have sensible vehicles like the rest of us.


ooops


Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - midlifecrisis
Lets just clear this up. It's not about 'gas guzzlers'.....it's about an arrogant, detestable politician.

These are a list of cars that will be hit.

If you thought the mayor of London's latest proposal to increase the congestion charge from £8 to £25 would just hit 4x4 drivers, think again. SMMT has today put together examples of 10 of the family cars ? people carriers, estates and family saloons ? that will also be liable for this 212 per cent hike in the central London motoring tax.

1. Vauxhall Zafira people carrier (2.0 litre petrol)

2. Renault Espace people carrier (2.0 litre petrol)

3. SEAT Alhambra people carrier (2.0 litre petrol)

4. Jaguar X-Type estate (2.5 litre petrol)

5. Peugeot 407 estate (2.2 litre petrol)

6. Honda Accord estate (2.4 litre petrol)

7. Ford Mondeo estate (2.0 litre petrol)

8. Saab 9-3 estate (2.3 litre petrol)

9. VW Passat saloon (1.8 litre petrol turbo tiptronic)

10. Citroën C5 saloon (3.0 litre petrol)

Seem like 'ordinary' cars to me!!
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Xileno {P}
Nice tax on working families.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - andymc {P}
Are there no equivalent diesels on that list?
--
andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - BazzaBear {P}
I won't link to it, because it's a bit rude, but sniffpetrol has some very interesting opinions on the various recent news stories about taxing that most evil of things, the motor vehicle.

(Link to www.sniffpetrol.com/ is okay. HJ)

As long as it's a NON clickable link - DD}
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - bradgate
As a rural-dweller who has never lived in London, and would never want to, several things baffle me about this issue.

Every time I visit London I use the excellent (compared to the rest of the UK) public transport. I can't imagine taking a car into central London, and cannot understand why any sane person would want to.

Do Londoners who object to the congestion charge actually enjoy sitting in gridlock? If not, what is their alternative to it?

Do they enjoy breathing smog? If not, what is wrong with trying to do something about the problem by discouraging people from driving highly polluting vehicles?

Isn't Ken Livingstone is absolutely right to describe Londoners who drive large 4x4's as 'idiots'? Ken isn't daft - he knows perfectly well that the majority of Londoners agree with him. I am not anti 4x4's, I own one myself and use it to tow a horsebox, but I don't live or work in a city. If i did, i would choose a more suitable vehicle.

The "I am rich and important and I demand the right to do whatever I damn well please and to hell with everybody else" brigade are well represented in this forum. It is probably a good thing that Londoners have voted for a Mayor who tries to put the interests of the many who can't afford Range Rovers ahead of those of the selfish few who don't give a toss about anyone else as long as they are allowed their status symbols.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - artful dodger {P}
The funding of local councils has always been a small part local finance (rates or for a shortwhile, poll tax) and the vast majority comes from central government. This has always been the case in living memory, so local people pay a small proportion of the local services.

The Congestion Charge is mainly paid by people who live outside the area (residents get a 90% discount). This is a very important point, it is a source of finance from people outside the local area.

The only other charges local councils can raise against the motorist are parking charges and parking fines. Car parking charges can apply on either the highway or car parks. Parking fines can only be raised if a driver overstays the time limit or parks where expressly denied. By comparison the Congestion Charge is to drive along a public highway, one that has already been paid for and maintained - so it is a tax on use of a vehicle.

I do not disagree with bradgate about 4x4's being a silly vehicle to use in a city, however it is still the driver's choice of vehicle. Are we becoming so much of a police state that we can now be dictated to about what vehicle you can or can't use? I always believed we lived in a free society. We have laws to give us guidance as the right way to live our lives, so we can all live happily together. Any law that exceeds this should be challenged.

You have to remember it was only a few years ago that it was proposed to vary the rates of motor vehicle excise duty from a flat rate. This was in the name of protecting the environment, a measure to try and persuade people to use smaller more fuel efficient cars. Unfortunately this is now being used for pollution charging by Ken Livingstone.


--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Westpig
As a rural-dweller who has never lived in London, and would
never want to, several things baffle me about this issue.
Every time I visit London I use the excellent (compared to
the rest of the UK) public transport. I can't imagine taking
a car into central London, and cannot understand why any sane
person would want to.
Because:

1, I don't want my head smashed in by some 'care in the community type' or 'just plain violent' who objects to
me 'looking at him'
2, i don't want to sit near someone else who has considerably less bathing skills than i do
3, I don't like smelling someone else's food whilst they are eating it
4, i don't want to sit in the chewing gum/ marks from someone else's shoes
5, i would quite like to keep my wallet where it is
6, were i to be female i would not wish for some pervert to start rubbing himself up against me
7, i'm slightly claustrophobic and don't like it when the tubes stop for lenghty periods in the tunnels
8, i find it intensely irritating when people play their headphones loudly right next to me

there's more, but i feel my point is made
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - PhilW
Westpig,
So these people only occupy the public transport system?
Sounds like you are arguing against visiting London, not just using the public transport.
I'm a "rural dweller" also, in the wilds of Leics, but have to admit that when visiting London, I leave my car at my daughter's in NE London and use the public transport - and have not (yet) encountered many of the problems you outline. Yes, it can be intimidating to those of us not used to the metropolis - but it's a hell of a lot less intimidating than trying to find a parking space. And yes, we have had some good days and nights out in London.
Compared to the rural area I live in , the public transport available in London at all hours is an eye-opener - and quite good fun compared to waiting hours in the rain for a non-existent bus in Leics.
--
Phil
Congestion charge - £25 in 2009 Band G - Westpig
good point, well presented........

it just highlights that there's choice and one way isn't totally right or wrong........ we're human beings who should be thinking for ourselves and are lucky enough to live in a democracy that allows us to (aren't we?)

i would wish to avoid london transport at all costs........although occasionally have to........but fully understand why others do so
 

Ask Honest John

Value my car