3 new cars are just comming out. The fiat panda 100hp - based on the top of the range elegazia model (from the press reports - in europe its the Emotion). After that arriving in 2007 (panda launch is Dec 2006) is the renault Twigo, the starting package is the 1.2 or 1.4 litre with 100HP, then later on we get the 150HP model to take on the likes of the MINI. We also get the new Fiat 500 developed with Ford as a replacement for the Ka. This 500 model is meant to compete in the fast small supermini market with a possible Arbath version aimed to woo buyers from the renault twigo.
In short this time next year will see a big improvement in the small car market with hopefully higher specs and more performance.
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Hmm, a FIAT or a Renault? No thanks.
Pity Suzuki don't give us an updated Capuccino. Crazy 657cc turbo engine and all the goodies you need (air con etc) plus great handling and reliability. The Japanese make some terrific Kei-cars, if only they would import them to UK....
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Turn your back on the world of small cars and buy something huge. You know it makes sense ;)
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Aprilia, the reliability on the new Panda should be OK - it´s built in Poland ;-)
Seriously though, whenever we´ve had one on hire it´s seemed pretty well-screwed together. We *nearly* bought one before I stumbled across the Barchetta.
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Hmm, a FIAT or a Renault? No thanks.
I would rather have a car with a bit of French or Italian brio and character than an antiseptic Japanese or Korean box however reliable the latter may be.
Ok there are exceptions though generally Japanese (designed) cars lack character unlike their motorcycles that are the complete opposite.
Pity Suzuki don't give us an updated Capuccino.
I would be concerned about the finish on a Suzuki, their bikes are anot up to the standard of the other big three in finish terms.
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unlike their motorcycles that are the complete opposite.
Cheddar I completely agree with you, but a lot of people in their 50's and over have the complete opposite view. They consider Jap bikes bland, too smooth, too easy to ride and generally "soft"
My dad rode my ZX-7R round the block a few times, came back and said it was the fastest sewing machine he'd ever known. I mean what's that all about?! He is restoring a '69 Bonneville 650 at the moment which is his idea of a "proper bike".
Smashed kneecaps from kickbacks when trying to start it, vibes that blur your vision, reliability that is at best questionable, no brakes to speak of, and puddles of oil under the thing every time you stop. I guess character means different things to all of us. ;-)
Cheers
DP
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Have you ever thrashed a Cappucino cheddar? Do you even know what one is? They are hardly boxy so one can only assume you dont.
Im not talking about the Suzuki Alto here, Im talking about the small, fun jap cars that have every now and again made it over here. The usually have a rorty 3-cyl engine, a whoosy turbo and lots of kit in a reliable and cheap form in many cases.
The finish on current Suzukis is fine and the Cappuccino was quite good for the mid-90's when it was being sold here.
Im sorry but I dont think the Citroen C1 or Fiat Panda have 'brio' whatsoever. Either that or you are very easily pleased.
The Mini Cooper ( the real one not those horrid bloated german things ) offered cheap performance and a fun if hard going driving experience - it felt faster than it was so you could thrash around in one without breaking the limit. I wish there was a modern alternative. Lets see if this Fiat 500 thing comes to anything.
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Have you ever thrashed a Cappucino cheddar? Do you even know what one is? They are hardly boxy so one can only assume you dont.
Aprilia was able to get away with gross generalisation of French and Italian cars, why shouldn't Cheddar do the same with Japanese ones?
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Aprilia was able to get away with gross generalisation of French and Italian cars, why shouldn't Cheddar do the same with Japanese ones?
Actually all he said was no thanks to Fiat and Renault. Thats hardly a generalisation about french and Italian cars. He obviously just doesnt like the two of the makes which is fair enough.
Never said why so how can he have generalised a point about them?
I would tend to agree about Fiat and Renault small cars, but its just a preference of mine. I dont have any narrow minded generalisations about the cars. They just dont sell the kinda car I was thinking of, simple as.
Fiat Panda is a utility mini-estate and the Clio is far to large now to be a genuine small car.
Thats why id never consider either as small, sporty and good value.
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Quite right Aprila. Ive had quite a lot of experience of these cars and they were never anything less than great fun. My sister wanted one for years and years after she saw one, and she is a very fussy young lady about what looks good.
I think its a shame that we miss out on what the japanese are their very best at - squeezing lots into a car the size of a matchbox and making it work. Not only that but the reason that so many people over here think jap cars are boring is because the japs keep the interesting ones for themselves!
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Have you ever thrashed a Cappucino cheddar? Do you even know what one is?
Prefer a double Espresso myself ;-)
Serious fun does not come from 63bhp and four wheels, give me twice the bhp and half the wheels any day.
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Serious fun does not come from 63bhp and four wheels, give me twice the bhp and half the wheels any day.
I had a Suzuki Cappuccino a few years ago, lots of fun when you need it but reasonably quiet and sensible when you weren't in the mood. I'd venture a better drive than an MX-5 because it's so narrow you could use more of the road!
Obviously it's nothing like the buzz a bike can give you, but impressive for a little car. I was sorely tempted by a Honda Beat at the time which was a grey import, that looked like a hoot too.
Other fun in small packages dept: Suzuki Whizzkid - a go-kart with 1000cc engine and more dials than a Cortina 1600E, and those funny little Honda 600s which always seemed to be orange, I owned a Whizzkid but couldn't find a solid Honda
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I'd plump for a used Elise. £10k, 0-60 in under 6 seconds and 40-45 mpg in daily use.
If my mate's was anything to go by, very reliable as well, although the build quality stinks.
Cheers
DP
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The definition of a small car is that it is SMALL. The Elise isnt small - its longer than both the Citroen C1 and C2 and nealy as long as a C3. Add into that its impracticality and poor visibility, id rather walk and yes ive driven a fair few Elises which are all very well, but with the roof on, have terrible access.
Obviously the designer was off on the day they designed the doors and the photocopier engineer or the cleaner did them for him. Its on a par with Toyotas biggest fulff up - the MR2 with no boot.
Anyone who cannot design in the fundamentals into a car design should be sacked on the spot.
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I could not disagree more.
Practicality wasn't in the design brief.
Ease of access and boot space wasn't in the design brief.
Light weight, fabulous handling, and total connection with the road (no PAS, no brake servos) were. At that it is arguably one of the finest cars ever made.
I lived with one for 5 months courtesy of a friend who needed the space temporarily, used it for work quite regularly and loved it. Made everything I've driven since, including so-called "small" cars feel flabby and spongy. No issues personally with visibility, and access is a doddle when you have the knack, even for someone like me at 6ft 2 and the wrong side of 15 stone.
All that annoyed me was the tendency for things to fall off it, and the fact it leaked like a sieve.
Cheers
DP
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DP - the point of my post was about small, inexpensive fun cars that you can buy which the japanese are very good at. The Elise isnt a city car with some extra urge and it doesnt have back seats so its useless for anyone with either a family life or social life.
Its a great second car, but comparing it to the other cars mentioned isnt any kind of direct comparison.
Not many people would wake up and say ' Lotus or Mini Cooper?'.
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No idea how old you are stunaorthants. Thinking about your mentality I would put you in the region of 30 to 40. The reason being that the late 1980's was the best time for small hot cheap and fun cars. Unfortunatly the japanise limited the power (or something) of Kei cars and the other superminis like the peugot 205 GTI and other such legends got killed off by insurance and safety considerations. If you grew up in the time these hot hatches and Japanese cars like the dihatsu 100hp 1 litre car were out (I forget it's name - Charade?) then I could see how you hold these cars in great affection.
I find the modifying world the most crazy right now. There was an item on 5th about this man who had a 2,200hp road legal car, and who can forget about the Cobra with 1,200hp made by a provincial village in germany (again forget the name - weinstock?) . These cars make the Bugarti Veyron look postivily boring to a certain extent. Why not get a Mitsubisi i with about 36hp in standard trim attach a hyabusu engine to it (like a smart that apeared on Utube) and then I am sure you would have a small but very entertaining small Japanese car.
(sorry about spelling)
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No idea how old you are stunaorthants.
Im 26, so if you will excuse me, ill have a quiet sob in the corner!
Hence I was a child of the 80's. I remember when the 1990 Mini Cooper was launched - not the most sophisticated car by any means, but FUN to drive and you could drive the wheels off it without breaking the law much, which is very important these days especially.
I do remember the Charade GTti very well and what a superb little thing it was.
The Cuore Avanzato was a sort of latter day version although restricted to the 64 bhp unlike the Charade. I drove one and while it wasnt the fastest thing in the world, with the whoosh of the turbo, throaty little 3-cyl engine and the knowledge that because it was made in the land of rising sun, it wouldnt break if you caned it, it was so much accessible fun.
The problem I have with cars today is that they are a little bit TOO sanitised and they need to have huge amounts of power to make them interesting.
Also, cars on the whole are too fast to give them any stick legally - my mums Hyundai Coupe nearly does the legal limit in second gear, so you get none of that challenge of wringing every last rev out of the box before you have to back off.
I have to say, I used to drive 1999 Cuore base models when I was collecting and delivring them as loan cars. They were exceptionally chuckable little cars if you were brave and thrived when pushed.
Sure these ones were bright yellow and a bit old hat even then, but they had that ability to put a smile on your face without resorting to 200BHP. I just miss cars like that.
I think the closest that comes to the fun element is the Smart ForTwo which I owned - terrible handling and gearbox, but you could tell it was designed by someone with a sense of humour.
Thats why I bought it and because you could get it with so many toys to play with which makes sitting in traffic that bit more bearable.
I just hope that there are some affordable fun cars on the way. An Abarth Fiat 500 sounds great btw.
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Sorry Stu, your big issue seemed to be character. I have no idea what a COpen costs.
JH
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>>Daihatsu Cuore>>
The only time I drove one of these was in Jersey and it was pathetic even by the standards demanded there.
In the early 1990s the Japanese car manufacturers produced several cars with three cylinder 999cc engines that left some considerably larger European models for dead performance wise; because of Japanese legislation they were limited to 64bhp despite the remarkable technology that was on show.
One model that impressed me was the Daihatsu Charade GTti which was quicker, at the time, than the Golf GTi with a performance of 0-60 in 7.7 seconds and had the highest performance per litre of any car in the world.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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First Twingo was excellent, simple, practical and totally unpretentious.We don't see many here because it was LHD only. If the new one is anything like that I would have one like a shot if I had the money and wanted that sort of car, LHD or not. But I suppose it will be bigger, fatter and heavier, therefore much less attractive.
As for this 'Renault? No thanks! ' business, even coming from Aprilia who does know his motors, it smacks of bigotry to me. Only Renault I ever had was a great car. I wouldn't touch a MINI with a bargepole, despite its alleged Teutonic genes. Damn estate agent's runabout. No thanks.
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Surprised noone has mentoined a Smart, perhaps they have?
To get back on thread the new Clio and 207 are both the size of a MkII Golf. Small cars are getting bigger for safety reasons, the new Clio is bigger than the old to acheive 5 Star safety and the old one lead the way with 4 Stars from '98, the new Clio looks fine as well, the 207 looks too much like a 206 though the sporty ones are quite handsome.
How would a Copen, Beat, Capuccino, 1071 Cooper S etc do in Euro NCAP?
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How would a Copen, Beat, Capuccino, 1071 Cooper S etc do in Euro NCAP?
About as well as a motorbike?
But you have a similar advantage to a bike - good maneuverability so you can get out of the way.
And the same as on a bike, the primary safety device is good observation by the driver!
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Perhaps someone can explain to me where the character is in a Fiat Panda? Really can't see it myself.
Generally though, the reason Japanese cars are seen as having no character in this country is that "character" cars do not travel well. Our "character" (Megane, say) is Japan's "weird". And so it follows that the funny little quirky designs the Japanese produce in quite large numbers (and always have done) are just seen as odd to our tastes.
So we just get the "world cars" from Japan, which appear antiseptic.
Have a look at the US version of the Ford Focus, one of the best-known world cars here. Over there the same design has been toned down because the Americans would consider the design odd. So their Focus is as bland a vehice as you could ever picture in your head, even though it is much the same underneath.
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I couldnt agree more jase. The Panda reminds me of a Renault 4 more than anything else.
I think we dont get the characterful japanese cars because we dont ask for them. Look at how many Smarts there are around - totally weird car, not all that good in real terms, yet still we buy them. Atleast if it was a quirky jap car it would be engineered right.
Since we are all being 'persuaded' to move to smaller economical cars, maybe the time has come to give us some more choice as the market opens up.
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Exactly. Smarts are brillinat fun around town. Characterful, buzzy 3-cylinder engine, sequential flappy paddle gearbox, and a cinch to park. Driving them is like wearing an oversized rollerskate.
And if you need more than 2 seats, a 3-cylinder C107Aygo is also fun. And a Panda handles nicely. All are far more interesting than any excessively narrow Japanese K-car.
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All you need is a Modus. Fun and characterful. And.........
....." the Modus has at last broken the spell on Renault's poor reliability, with a performance in its first two years that even some Far-Eastern carmakers might envy." (Which? 2006/07)
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All you need is a Modus. Fun and characterful. And......... ....." the Modus has at last broken the spell on Renault's poor reliability, with a performance in its first two years that even some Far-Eastern carmakers might envy." (Which? 2006/07)
Good. If they can keep it up, fair play to them.
And I won't even make any comment about Nissan's influence possibly finally beginning to come through either.
Irrelevant anyway. If it's one more manufacturer who can make good cars, that's all good as far as I am concerned.
Time will tell.
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