New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Armitage Shanks {p}
So if all these threatened taxes are imposed what will happen to the money collected? Cars are still going to emit gases, aircraft engines likewise. they aren't going tp be modified so what is the money going to be spent on? Why are we going to act if USA and China aren't? Seems pointless and expensive. Global warming is happening but opinion is divided as whether it is anything to do with CO2! V Depends which biased report you read!
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - teabelly
It's a total joke. BP are doing a commercial offset scheme which will charge £5 a year per ton, thus it would cost me £55 not the obscene sums Milli-prat is already bandying around to offset my entire carbon footprint each year. Same for everyone else. Total rip off Britain.

We could abandon cars tomorrow and the chinese would take 3 months to produce the same emissions.




teabelly
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Adam {P}
The worrying thing is, is that the other two parties are pretty keen to jump on this bandwagon too.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - bell boy
makes my blood boil hearing such rubbish from these people
as said let the new superpowers put their houses in order and then sort us out
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Hamsafar
Maybe all energy is required to be diverted to the war on terror axles of evil?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - bell boy
Maybe all energy is required to be diverted to the war
on terror axles of evil?


think the wheel fell off that axle ages ago
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Stuartli
It's stealth taxing by stealth - it's also well worth reading the article by Professor Philip Stott debunking the green myths behind the ever-increasing "environmental" taxes on page 29 of the Mail on Sunday today.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Honestjohn
Back (again) to Peter B's post in the Richmond parking thread. To quote:

"Politicians need ways to raise (ever more!) revenue that are:

a. reasonably acceptable to most voters
b. simple enough to explain and collect
c. encourages "desirable" behaviour

Increasingly, taxes on "gas guzzler" cars pass tests a and c. Unfortunately test b means that it isn't possible to allow for all of whole-life energy costs, emmisions per km, total mileage covered, driving style etc. Therefore we end up with CO2 emissions plus fuel tax plus VAT on new cars as (not unreasonable) proxies.

Not sure what would be better given all of a-c above. However 225gms is much too low to start the top band!"

The whole point of adopting moral high grounds is to use the naiivity of pressure groups in order to extract more taxes and fines from the population so that the current rate of plundering the public sector can continue unabated.

HJ
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Nsar
I think you need to see the problem in context. We're going to hell in hand cart and quick unless we change our behaviour - we cannot pretend that cheap energy consumption of which motoring is a huge part is sustainable and if you think the cost of doing something to change that is high, try not doing something.

Bleating that other countries are not pulling their weight is a playground argument.

I await the replies with the words "tree hugger" used prominently.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - bell boy
look to china me old china it is certainly not a playground
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Nsar
?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Stuartli
>>Bleating that other countries are not pulling their weight is a playground argument.>>

Compared to the resources used by the USA, China and Japan for instance, we are a comparatively minor player.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Andy P
The UK has ~1% of the world's population and produces ~2-3% of emissions. The largest producers are the US and China. If we cut our emissions by a fraction of a percent, that'll have virtually no impact whatsoever.

According to the Government, this is a global problem, so it needs a global solution. We may be "setting an example" to the rest of the world, but can you see the rest of the world doing anything?

GWB is controlled by big business so he's not going to do anything which will affect their financial well-being, although some of the individual states are starting to do something.

China want's to catch up with the west, and that means more and more consumer goods which need electricity which will, inevitably, come from coal or gas-fired power stations.

At the end of the day, these "green" taxes are yet another way for the Government to extract more money while doing nothing to solve the problems we here and now. The whole infrastructure of this country is falling apart yet nothing is done to cure it.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Andy P
...oh, and perhaps if greater effort was put into energy efficiency we wouldn't need more taxes. Electrical items left permanently on standby, outside lights left on overnight, the list goes on....
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - midlifecrisis
Better still, kill all the cows. The millions of tons of methane they produce causes far more harm than cars. It would even lower the price of steak, which is a good thing!

It's reaching the point where I'm going to send my wages to Westminster and hope they'll return a few pence to buy bread and water. Of course all these extra taxes on motorists will result in larger expense accounts for politicians, can't expect them to pay out of their own pocket can we.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Red Baron
Down with termites, I say. Evil methane emitting vermin.

No, I really mean the insects and even then not those in the inland revenue.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dalglish
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed

>>

i have said many times here and i say it again:

assuming that the experts have got it right, (and i think they may have), this is a global problem requiring global effort.

the uk can be nuked tomorrow to smitherins and its emissions reduced to zero - but it will make absolutely no difference to the world.

china increases its pollution every year by the equivalent of current annual uk pollution. so in a year, the zero emissions from the uk would have been made up by the increase in chinese emissions.

india and china have a combined population total exceeding two billion people.
at least china has stopped growing its popuplation via its draconian "no more than one child per family" population control policy.
india has no such policy, and until recently, india's population was growing at the rate of adding one whole uk to india every year. current rate of growth seems to have sloweed to adding about one whole uk every two years.

why oh why does the uk always want to be the world's policeman (or woman). why does the uk get pleasure from self-harming measures? is it that our politicians and society are sado-masochists ?

why oh why do people think carbon dioxide is the only or the main cause of warming? as midlifecrisis says, it the methane from cattle and sheep, plus the destruction of forests to grow more feed and pastures for the livestock that are the major culprits.

vegetarianism is the solution. and start using your sandals for walking.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - madf
the transport solution was abandonned in the early 20th century. Bring back the horse and cart...



Suggesting we do nothing because no-one else will is defeatism in the extreme imo...
madf
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - bell boy
liked your post till i got the vision of men in shorts and sandals at the end.yuk

why dont we flood the thames and harness the free electric it could produce ?
on poor water days the politicians could get on some big hamster wheel thing to do their bit.
our own likkle yangtze river
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Stuartli
Getting rid of local and national politicians' ever rising level of hot air would play a key role...:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
Gordon Brown will be rubbing his hands with glee.Yet another tax to collect but someone else to take the flak !
I was guided by the experts he will say !

The fact is that the extra tax will be pitched at a level whereby the effect on emissions will be minimal because we always manage to find the extra to maintain our usage of vehicles,in part because our transport system is a joke.

Despite what the politicians may say in defference to the tree huggers and " experts " they still want to win the next election.If they were really serious then let them tax fuel to such a degree that we cannot afford it ie £10 per gallon.Lets call there bluff and see what happens.

That would satisfy the greens,but of course the knock on effect to the economy would be suicidal.

Why does an issue like this always end up with increases taxes instead of a non fiscal measure such as enforced rationing .

Just another labour con to make up for a budget black hole !
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - The Lawman
The idea is that these new taxes will discourage us from "ungreen" behaviour.

What no polititian has mentioned so far is what is going to happen to the overall tax burden.

Are the new taxes intended to be revenue neutral? If so, which other taxes will be abolished/reduced?

I am sure that I am not alone in believing that the new taxes will not be revenue neutral at all, and will end up going towards supporting the ever growing state sector.

Oh, and a simple easy to collect "green" car tax already exists( tax on fuel).

Why doesnt the goverment simply increase fuel duty and make a corresponding decrease in some other tax? Or is that too simple?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - AlanGowdy
vegetarianism is the solution. and start using your sandals for walking.


Apart from the bizarre last sentence (humour?) this is the most sensible contribution to the thread by a mile.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Baskerville
It's stealth taxing by stealth


What's the definition of "stealth" in your dictionary? Mine certainly doesn't say "discuss the idea in the national newspapers and every available news outlet." Does yours?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - John24
We are always being pressed to use our cars less and public transport more but, as usual, it's a case of no joined up thinking. Ever wondered how many cars on the roads are subsidised by the taxpayer? Where I live there are a lot of elderly people and the street is filled regularly with cars belonging to social workers, occupational therapists, care workers, home helps and assorted other 'officials'. We get a 42 seater 'Dial a bus' which comes to collect one elderly lady and is invariably otherwise empty. We also get taxis by the dozen. If the politicians want people to use public transport, why do they issue thousands of licences for taxis?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - bell boy
maybe the last person to leave this country could turn the lights off?
that should help the greens
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Nsar
Oldman, this is the conclusion of the Stern recommendations: spend 1% of world GDP to be 20% richer than we will otherwise be.

Remind me what your solution to this is.


New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Vin {P}
"plus the destruction of forests to grow more feed and pastures for the livestock that are the major culprits"

Destruction of forests?

Percentage of Earth wooded in 1950 - 29%
Percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 - 30%

Odd that this is a seldom-mentioned fact. Note use of word "FACT".

V
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Vin {P}
My mistake - percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 is 31%, not 30%.

V
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dalglish
in reply to both posts by vin above:
Percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 - 30%
Odd that this is a seldom-mentioned fact. Note use of word "FACT".


followed two minutes later by another "fact"
>> My mistake - percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 is 31%, not 30%.
contradicting the first "fact".

need i say more. so much for "facts".

the world is getting warmer, the west is getting obese.
the solution is : put on your shorts, socks, and sandals. get out of your car or 4x4, start walking and stop eating beef. solve the obesity and carbon emissions problems in one.

we are doomed, doomed, doomed.

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Vin {P}
followed two minutes later by another "fact"
My mistake - percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 is 31%, not 30%.
contradicting the first "fact". need i say more. so much for "facts".


Dalglish,

A typing error and lack of an edit button leads you to disregard facts.

Once again, as usual when you get involved in an argument, you have descended to farce once your emotional outbursts are contradicted by facts. Troll off.

V
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dalglish
... you have descended to farce once your emotional outbursts are contradicted by facts. Troll off. ..

>>

vin - as i said, need i say more; except that i am impressed by your mastery of facts.
p.s. note - physchology has a description of people who resort to personal abuse in "discussions" or quoting "facts". so i will let you discover that fact for yourself.

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Cliff Pope
"plus the destruction of forests to grow more feed and pastures
for the livestock that are the major culprits"
Destruction of forests?
Percentage of Earth wooded in 1950 - 29%
Percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 - 30%
Odd that this is a seldom-mentioned fact. Note use of
word "FACT".


That's because it isn't a fact. See www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/indicator4.htm
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Vin {P}
"That's because it isn't a fact."

Where, in the link that you posted, is there anything to contradict the facts I stated?

Percentage of Earth wooded in 1950 - 29%
Percentage of Earth wooded in 2000 - 31% (with apologies to Dalglish)

Which of those facts there are you arguing with, please, Cliff?

V
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Cliff Pope
Both. Just one quotation says it all:
"The World Resources Institute estimates that about 40 percent of the world's intact forests will be gone within 10-20 years, if not sooner, considering current deforestation rates. "

I haven't done an exhaustive study of the facts, I merely did a quick Google search and the first hit came up witha site that appears to be showing a decline in the quantity of the earth's forests. Of course you can argue over the meaning of "forest" as opposed to "wooded", and the website may be totally rubbish for all I know.
But anyone who has seen pictures of the smog over Indonesia or the vast areas of barren lanscape created in Brazil will be getting just a little concerned that there might be some cause for concern here.

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Vin {P}
"The World Resources Institute estimates that about 40 percent of the world's intact forests will be gone within 10-20 years, if not sooner, considering current deforestation rates. "

Wow. I wonder if the Earth Resources Institute is an independent body, or whether they need to justify their funding?

Also, I stated facts. You quote their opinion.

V
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - madf
Whilst the Government has been preaching energy saving to us, Gov't departments used 11% more fuel in 2004...



www.sustainable-development.gov.uk/publications/re...m

don't do as I do.. perhaps some civil servants should get on their bikes?


madf
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - madf
There are facts and the truth... 2% reduction stated here

www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/indicator4.htm
madf
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Vin {P}
I'll cite my sources when I get back from the office...

Actually, on second thoughts, I won't bother. When it comes to green issues, why let the facts get in the way of a good subjective emotion-fest?

The problem is, it's people who don't bother to look for the facts that are driving public opinion. It's a lack of facts that leads to the claptrap that people spout in order to penalise motorists. The greens give you a pile of lies built on lies (one little example is "the world is losing its forests", when we have more than in 1950) to justify anything they want. Their aim is to make you feel guilty about the way you lead your life so they can have a say in how you lead it.

Motoring is just the thin end of the wedge. Let them win their battle of emotion versus reason and they will move on to try to control the rest of your lives.

V

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - madf
"Actually, on second thoughts, I won't bother. When it comes to green issues, why let the facts get in the way of a good subjective emotion-fest?"


Over the last five years, the world suffered a net loss of some 37 million hectares (91 million acres) of forest, according to data from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization. This number reflects the felling of 64.4 million hectares of trees and the planting or natural regeneration of 27.8 million hectares of new forest. Each year the world loses some 7.3 million hectares of forest, an area the size of Panama. Due to extensive reforestation, this net forest shrinkage has slowed slightly from the 8.9 million hectares lost annually in the 1990s. While this is encouraging, it obscures the sobering fact that gross deforestation has not declined significantly since 2000."

www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Forest/2006.htm

Lots of references - UN no less...

Of course if you can't be bothered it says only one thing....

Good thing we don't use wood burning stoves in steam powered cars or the forests woudl disappear even quicker...



madf
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dalglish
a pile of lies built on lies (one little example is "the world is losing its forests", when we have more than in
1950)


madf and cliff pope - thanks for your efforts to quote reliable sources to support my lies and opinion and lies and views and lies on the loss of forests and more lies.
i had meant to refer to tropical forests in particular, but i am quite happy to let it st and as a reference to the world's total forest cover). however, i believe there is no point in continuing a discussion once personal insults and accusations of "emotional outbursts " are bandied about .

so once again thanks for your backing.
now back to the original motoring point of the thread .....
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Cliff Pope
I suspect you are extracting your facts from the ideas published by Bjorn Lomberg, who controversially argues that amongs other things, the world is not being deforested, in fact the reverse.

Take a look at www.lomborg-errors.dk/chapter10.htm for a start.

The only certain fact is that there are too many facts. You can prove anything if you take some selective figures and then play around with some flawed statistics, as Lomborg has been accused of doing. Pouncing on the results you like the most and then calling them FACTS and everyone else's mere opinions does not actually add any evidence for anything. It's a futile debate. You cite a report from the institute of XYZ saying one thing, and I produce a paper by professor A.N. Other saying the opposite.

As a matter of fact I agree with you about the way the greens are trying to manipulate the debate, and of course politicians are now trying to muscle in for their own devious aims. And I don't think taxing anything has ever pursuaded people to change their behaviour for the common good, merely encourage them to find a way round it.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - madf
What I seriously and I mean SERIOUSLY object to is :
1.The Government has known from well informed sources for at least 5 years something must be doen, and signed Kyoto and set targets for Government departments.

BUT

Effectively NONE of the Government's own targets for its OWN usage have been met.

Now it proposes to tax us... whilst it has consistently failed to take its own medicine.. weasel words such as "increses due to staff expansion" etc.

IF I saw a REAL attempt to save energy - and a VISIBLE one - I would be more heartened ... but it's a case of "do what I say" NOT "lead by example".

Lets think
two Jags drives 100 metres to save his wife's hair style
Mrs Beckett drives a 4x4.
Government expands Heathrow plans on 40% expansion of airtravel.
Government funds A300 airliner (a white elephant)
Government encourages new house building on flood plains (where water can be stored) and encourages destruction of Victorian houses and new build.



I see no coherent and joined up thinking - just a reaction to pressures...

The Laws of Unintended Consequences will occur with Green Taxes.. the unforseen impacts will have some unforseen side effects.. like taxing uneconomic use of say old cars or refrigerators as "fuel inefficient" thus encouraging more disposals of old and buying of new....







madf
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - tyro
Good post, madf (actually, quite a few good posts on this thread)

1) In particular, I too am highly sceptical about the green credentials of government - a lot of it seems to be about being seen to be green, rather than actually doing it. Buildings are kept warmer than they really need to be. Our local high school is a prime example.

2) The whole issue of "encouraing more disposals of old and buying of new".

Would truly green taxes mean that those who run older cars pay lower vehicle excise duty - say with lower rates coming in at 10, 15, and 20 years?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Nsar
To give this a motoring theme until normal hostilities resume....

Human behaviour can be modified to prevent us doing harm to ourselves eg seat belts - where the law was the main tool to effect change and drink driving where the law and education and social pariah status have had a combined effect.

I find it risible when people respond with sneering comments about "the greens" and "tree-huggers" to a 700 page report from the chief economist of the World Bank who defines climate change as a massive market failure with economic impacts equivalent to WWII and presents options in terms of the business case for spending 1% of GDP now to protect 20% loss of GDP in the future.

It's a business argument - not the greens out to spoil your fun.

The US, China and the other industrialised nations will only respond by creating global economic mechanisms to control emissions that in turn will protect their economies from failure and chaos that follows (think of 30s Germany and any other country where formerly stable economies have stalled to be replaced by ones led by the nutters)

We are already engaged in an economic war in Iraq to keep oil prices stable - the cost of which runs into billions. Now you can have more expensive petrol if we allow the Middle East to go up in flames or we pick up the tab through Defence budgets, not to say huge loss of human life in either scenario.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
Nsar,please explain on what exactly,will this 1% of global gdp be spent and what level of extra taxation, for example on a gallon of petol/diesel ,will be needed to get the job done.


Also tell me how will you quantify and measure the results .

Given our governments record on stealth taxes i.e robbing pension funds,dipping into the lottery "good causes "
etc,etc,do you REALLY think they will achieve anything ?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Armitage Shanks {p}
Madf "Government funds A300 airliner (a white elephant)" It is the A380 and they didn't fund all of it and it is'nt an elephant - it is a whale!
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - alex

madf writes

"Government funds A300 airliner (white elephant)"

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you mean the A380 super jumbo because the A300 is one of Airbus' older planes.

The A380 may turn out to be a "white elephant" as you say. But the important point is that, as aircraft go, the A380 is a green plane. It carries more passengers than any other plane on both medium and long distance route. And therefore the A380's fuel consumption per seat is the lowest of any airliner.

Surely if we want to avoid building more runways we will need to have fewer flights. But each flight will need to carry more passengers. And this is where the A380 comes in.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Nsar
>>Nsar,please explain on what exactly,will this 1% of global gdp be spent and what level of extra taxation, for example on a gallon of petol/diesel ,will be needed to get the job done.


Also tell me how will you quantify and measure the results <<

Yes, that 700 pages will take me just a jiffy to digest in full and just a few minutes more to consult with the major oil companies on their price elasticity models.

The proposals for a global reporting system I reckon I'll have knocked out while I'm waiting for the kettle to boil (but only with a cupful in there mind you...)

If you feel that you could do the job quicker then please don't let me stand in your way.




New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
I'll take that as " I don't know "

No shame in that because I don't believe anybody does.

I certainly cant tell you because I'm just a thick,stupid peasant.............

until voting time,that is !
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Nsar
I don't think anyone could provide answers to the precise questions you have asked which is not to say that answers don't exist and certainly not to say that it shouldn't be done.

The key to the Stern report is that it quantifies the immense cost of doing nothing. If you can accept that, we have a benchmark to start from instead of everyone running round with their own interpretation of the situation.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
But don't you think that in asking us to pay more,the answers to those questions and more should be given to us as a matter of course,otherwise it,s a license to just extract more and more with no end in sight.

Unless,and I believe it is,that is the aim all along !

Mushroom theory.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Armitage Shanks {p}
Global Warming - Yes or No

September was already a record-breaking month - and the average temperature over the last two months put together is 14.95°C.

The Met Office said that would place this year as the warmest for its September/October figures.
The warmest before this was in 1949, when the average was 14.36°C.

Average up 0.6 degs in 57 years - Not proven I'd say!


New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
How warm was the planet when dinosaurs ruled the world ?

Jokes about politicians not allowed.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Bromptonaut
Global Warming - Yes or No
September was already a record-breaking month - and the average temperature
over the last two months put together is 14.95°C.
The Met Office said that would place this year as the
warmest for its September/October figures.
The warmest before this was in 1949, when the average was
14.36°C.
Average up 0.6 degs in 57 years - Not proven I'd
say!


But I suspect average September/October temperatures 2001-06 will be higher than than 1944-49. There will always be exceptional years (1959, 1976), the worry is that most of the warm springs and autumns have been since 1980.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dalglish
Average up 0.6 degs in 57 years - Not proven I'd say!


in reply to armitage :

one or two or three years of abnormal temperatures prove nothing, and you have to look at the long term trends..

see data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/

from that data, you can deduce that

every year since 1992 has been warmer than 1992
the ten hottest years on record occured in the last 15
every year since 1976 has been warmer than 1976
the 20 hottest years on record occured in the last 25
every year since 1956 has been warmer than 1956
every year since 1917 has been warmer than 1917

now the scientific consensus seems to be that these warming trends are due to global warming caused by a combination of pollution and deforestation. there are the anti-brigade who do not believe any of it. however, the important thing is that the three major political parties in the uk have bought in to this theory and are committed to making motorists in the uk pay for it. ( according to bbc 10 o'clock news tonight, apparently australia and the usa are going to do nothing unless china and india take action too. )

i blame it all on democracy and capitalism and free-markets and the end of the cold-war - the world was a better place when
1. india was stuck in its closed markets with a population deprived of the wonders of the western world,
2. the eastern european communist block population weere deprtived of the joys of driving hummers and ferraris and range-rover-sports. (they were quite happy riding their donkeys with just the relatively few "rich" people who could afford to drive ladas or trabants).
3. the chinese were happy pedalling along on thier bicycles.

the rot started with the dismantling of the berlin wall. i blame it all on margaret thatcher and ronald reagan and gorabachev.

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - teabelly
The sun has been stronger than ever these past 10 years. Plus reducing pollution has changed cloud cover. There was an article in the new scientist recently suggesting 75% of the observed climate change was down to cosmic rays - these affect cloud formations. I also read recently that using ice to measure previous co2 levels isn't reliable as co2 leeches out of it over time thus giving the impression that levels are much higher than they were. They're all guestimates as no-one can analyse the air and say for certain where each molecule of co2 measured comes from. They all look the same. I'd suggest the reason atmospheric co2 is rising is due to the sun; plants need more co2 when the sun is stronger ergo the world provides it. There is an experiment going on at the moment to look at this. If it is proven then I suspect the greenies will accuse whoever carried out the experiment of being in the pay of oil companies rather than admit they could be totally wrong.

The greens hate Lomberg because he was one of them and decided to apply decent statistical principles and examine their claims. They don't like it as they are on their own socialist agenda. They want control not freedom and hitting the motorist is easy as the car is the ultimate symbol of freedom. The deforestation stats mean nothing as the forest coverage is not expressed in terms of square miles & density. Without a graph of the trend over a few hundred years saying one year there was more this than another is also meaningless. Pick your base year carefully and you can say anything. Lies, damned lies & statistics is an excellent book about the very subject. Any statistic with 'up to' means 'we don't know' any with a wide range ie 10-20% this or that also means they're guessing. If they can't come out with an absolute figure and be reasonably accurate then they don't know what they're talking about.

Every few decades people are either worrying about a new ice age or a new hot period. Oddly enough the degree to which they're on about the northern hemisphere is going to cool because of the gulf stream reducing is remarkable similar to the claimed warming over the same period ie sweet fa is going to happen. To the casual observer it would seem the gulf stream is nothing more than a thermostat which is doing its job rather well.

In dust to dust calculations the hummer is in fact more environmentally friendly than the toyota prius. Unfortunately the greens only use such calculations when it benefits them. When it shows them to be wrong they rubbish them. The majority of energy use is out of building and maintaining a vehicle over its lifetime. Some 1 litre buzz box that only lasts 80k is a total waste of energy compared to a 2 litre car which will easily do 250k. Maintenance intervals, reliability and cost of accident repair also add into the equation.

What we should be concerned about is making sure people have clean water, food and the world population is reduced. Diverting the wasted money out of the pointless Kyoto protocol would do more to this end as would a jolly good plague.


teabelly
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - PhilW
"September was already a record-breaking month - and the average temperature over the last two months put together is 14.95°C."

How short are our memories - I seem to remember that this spring was the coldest for years - I know I was planting tomatoes, beans and sweet corn at least a month later than usual. Late June early July was good (OK, very hot) - Easter was cold, Whit was cold and August wasn't that great - cold northerly winds and very cool evenings for the most part.

"Average up 0.6 degs in 57 years - Not proven I'd say!"



--
Phil
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - wemyss
This subject has come to the fore at just the right time for Tony and his cronies.
The war in Iraq was taking the headlines again together with the closure of hospital beds and others Government disasters.
Suddenly he is a new man, stating this is the biggest crisis during his leadership although it was weapons of mass destruction arriving here by Iraqi missiles in minutes not that long ago.
Being an old cynic I believe it is media manipulation again which political parties are masters at. After his failure to save Africa he now embarks on a new crusade to see out his remaining time with a legacy of ?I was the man who began the fight to save the whole world. Beat that one Gordon???

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Armitage Shanks {p}
"now the scientific consensus seems to be that these warming trends are due to global warming caused by a combination of pollution and deforestation. there are the anti-brigade who do not believe any of it. however, the important thing is that the three major political parties in the uk have bought in to this theory and are committed to making motorists in the uk pay for it. ( according to bbc 10 o'clock news tonight, apparently australia and the usa are going to do nothing unless china and india take action too. )"

So why are just motorists going to pay and in what way will the collected money be spent to reduce CO2 emissions? If it is like road tax the government will hive off 80% of it to meet budget shortfalls elsewhere and the motorist will be stitched up as usual. It is going to take years and years to actually make cars and aero engines reduce their emissions. I can see no point in a sudden and draconian blitz on motorists when there is no policy statement as to what the money will be used for. All this legalised robbery could start in next year's budget SFAIK


New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dalglish
.... So why are just motorists going to pay and in what way will the collected money be spent to reduce CO2
emissions? ...


i mentioned just motorists, only as this forum is for motoring issues. factories and airlines will be penalised too, i presume. (and the manufacturing and jobs then displaced to the non-taxed locations such as china, obviously).

i guess we will have to wait and see how they decide to tax motorists and other polluters in the uk. as to how they will spend the money - it seems the idea is to bribe the "poor" third world nations such as brazil not to cut down their forests and to use more bioethanol (and save the petrol for us in the west), and bribe newly industrialized nations such as china and india to use our cash to clean up their dirty cars and factories.

(maybe more details in tomorrows papers).
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - wemyss
Actually AS I watched boy Cameron being interviewed this morning for ten minutes on this subject and he didnt actually say anything. His answers were classic politicians waffle.
Yes its a very serious problem..Its something we have been urging the Government to do for years...The interviewer tried very hard to get a straight answer as to what he would do but it was always deflected away. Yes we will look at taxing air traffic, make more use of fuel efficient cars...wind power ...wave power...nothing will escape his scrutiny but he will have to investigate every option before specific policy will be decided. And it all depends on the next opinion polls. (No he didnt actually say that).
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Avant
We need to give David C and the Conservatives time to work their policies out. The media are forever demanding a quick fix: if they provide it they will only be pilloried and accused of U-turns if it has to be changed as time goes on. They need policies for 2009-10, i.e. when they have a chance of being in government, not for now.

Tony Blair was is ths same posirtion in the mid-nineties, and was much more electable for taking time to work out the right polices for the time of the next election.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Kevin
Green taxes?

I guess that's the end of Blairforce One and Prescott's taxpayer funded globetrotting then?

No? Oh well.

I must admit that I haven't read it yet but everyone seems to have accepted the Stern Review as gospel. Does he provide references to the studies he based his conclusions on and the methods he used to interpret the data? ie. Is it open to FULL peer review? If not, he's a fool about to get his reputation trashed.

Too many people have seen too many reports commissioned by this bunch of compulsive liars called New Labour to accept this one at face value.

The next few weeks will be interesting.

Kevin...

PS.

I'm another subscriber to the media manipulation camp and that grabbing Gordon will find this an irresistible opportunity to roll out yet another time-bomb tax.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Dynamic Dave
Less politics, & amatuer weather forcasting / predictions,

and more motoring discussion please.

DD.
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - AndyT
At the end of the day, and living in a rural location, does all this hype mean I'll be taxed so heavy that I'll have to give up one of our two cars, have to use the train to work, be late to work quite often, get the sack, go on the dole, lose my income, and be happy that the planet is saved??
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mad Maxy
That global warming needs to be slowed and halted (even reversed?) goes without question. And it could just be that this new report will help stir other countries into action - even the US (though don't hold your breath, at least while Bush and co are still in power). And I guess one or a few countries have to take the lead.

But why penalise motorists? A lot of people depend on their cars for travel to/from work, and much of life in general revolves round quick and easy transport by car. Also, taxing big cars is not really the answer: buyers will be able to afford the extra costs and carry on as usual. Targeting cars will hardly make a dent in the problem.

We need to think instead about commercial organisations that generate CO2: industry, retailing, offices. All those lights, all the air conditioning, all the freezers and chilled cabinets in Tesco don't run on nothing. And then there's the CO2 produced by power stations. Then there are emissions from airliners; how much plane travel is really essential? Planes generate a HUGE amount of CO2. (And we shouldn't forget farm animals that generate tons of methane either!)
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
I know that this is straying away from motoring issues slightly but if we look at a wider picture,then should we also
start taxing all those goods that we import from China and other countries ?

The goods that come to mind are things like the Dyson vacuum cleaner.Once manufactured in britain but now in China to maximise profits.Most of the stuff we get so cheaply down at B & Q etc,in fact if you think about it,most of the manufactured goods that we buy are from China,because we don't have a manufacturing industry left.

What about the computer you and I are using now ? all the components made in the far east.

What about all the food we eat,that is flown in from exotic parts of the world.The clothes we wear.

If you think about the big picture,it seems to me that to satisfy the green lobby,the only real answer is to go back to the pre industrial age.

Are you all prepared to give up most of modern life for an ideal that is impossible to achieve !
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - madf
now IF the Government was serious , it would apply reverse taxation for those cars which over a lifetime use less energy.
So say all cars over 10 years old and less than 15 pay RFL of £100 or less (whatever is the rate).
Over 15 years pay zero.

That will encourage longer whole life use of cars.
Usual MOT rules.
Simple and easy - age based on UK registration date full stop.


Of course will never happen as new car sales decline and Sales/VAT decline... BUT
madf
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - tyro
now IF the Government was serious , it would apply reverse
taxation for those cars which over a lifetime use less energy.
So say all cars over 10 years old and less than
15 pay RFL of £100 or less (whatever is the rate).
Over 15 years pay zero.


You mean like I suggested at 1613 yesterday? Good point, madf ;-)

New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - teabelly
I'd support that idea. Partly because all my cars are over 15 years old :-) Lifetime of vehicles is a serious problem as the majority being produced today are economically unrepairable by the time they are only a couple of years old. Doing something to help the lot of independent garages would help in this respect - all electronic control systems should be made accessible by the manufacturers and at a low cost rather than the huge amounts they charge at the moment. Mine already do everything I need so I don't find the urge to upgrade to a later car.

It would also benefit the poor who could use the money otherwise wasted on RFL to keep their car serviced properly and save fuel.

Use of biodiesel & bioethanol & butanol as fuel substitutes would also help as it seems odd to be using fossil fuels when a) the price is going up and b) there are alternatives that are plug n play virtually. Retro fit conversion kits should be a big market but surprisingly no one seems to be showing much interest in doing it.
teabelly
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - PR {P}
I would support a heavy "green tax" on petrol, one which pays by the mile and punishes "gas guzzlers" the most.

As a basline, petrol is about 20p per litre. Ok then, lets add a hefty 75 ish percent duty and VAT. Hey presto.

Hang on, we already do!
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - TheOilBurner
I like fuel duty as a taxation system too.. It already achieves everything the environment lobby want and doesn't penalise particular types of cars or usage of cars. It's a perfect system because low mileage but thirsty cars do little harm to the environment and pay less, but high mileage or poor fuel economy etc is dealt with automatically. But this method of taxation is going nowhere presently. We can blame the petrol protests of 2000 for this predicament.

The government now feels it is electorally impossible to raise fuel duty, even being very wary to add inflation to it.

So, whilst we were trying to force the government to reduce painfully high fuel duty, they're bringing in lots of other, less fair and reasonable taxes to supplement it. Taxation that can punish so-called gas-guzzlers that are hardly driven anywhere, taxation that doesn't reward people for driving economically or maintaining their car properly. Great. :( I never thought I'd say this, but bring back the fuel duty escalator, if we're going to be taxed (of course we are...) then at least it should be fair.

Law of unintended consequences anyone?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - boxsterboy
Agree with you TheOilBurner. The proposal for Road Charging is a complete joke. The cost of setting up and running the system is so astronomical that, of the money raised, only a small amount is left for spending on whatever the Government thinks it should be spent on. Although whoever runs the system will obviously earn very nicely out of it, and doubtless the directors of said company will be very cosy with the Government.

Fuel tax is so much simpler and ore efficient, and apart from the very few who live in the back of beyond, much fairer. Those who are discriminated could have some form of tax credit to off-set it. Just what does go on inside Government Minister's heads?
New 'Green' Taxes Proposed - Mr.Tee.43
Just what does go on inside Government Minister's heads?


How much can I claim in expenses? How big will my pension be ? Can we fool them again ? Can we get away with more stealth taxes ?


Can we serve the public ? NO
 

Ask Honest John

Value my car