BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - henry k
"Foreign lorries 'threaten lives' "

"Around 400 people are killed annually in UK lorry accidents
Foreign lorry drivers are putting lives at risk by overworking, using vehicles with serious faults and overloading their trucks, a police chief has said."

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/6081596....m
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Collos25
Until you have an effective police force not one that tells us what we already know then the matter will get worse ,across Europe there is a dedicated transport ministry which is extremely effective at stopping unroadworthy vehicles ,it is not uncommon for them to direct all trucks off a motorway and take them to a central check area, they also try to check most vehicles as they cross the border not every truck can be checked thats for sure but a much greater effort is made than in the UK .As far as penalties are concerned why are there effective penalties in Germany and not the UK reason the UK will not apply them.Conclusion no police no laws enforced =cowboy land thats how the UK is perceived by most other EU states truck operators work where they will get the least hastle .
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Honestjohn
If what Andy says is true, then how do the defective foreign trucks get to the Channel ports in order to enter Britain? But he's right that trucks and their drivers are rarely stopped and checked in the UK. Even counties like Thailand now have a network of weighbridges on trunk routes and trucks have to stop to be weighed several times on a long journey.

HJ
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
Not actually true at the moment HJ, I was at a VOSA inspection at one of my clients last week just outside Guildford - the examiner there was telling us that at the moment there is a real big push going on with foreign trucks, and they are stopping lots more then they have done in the past. The average motorist will not see a roadside check as the wagons are pulled by the Police into either a weigh bridge or into motorway service areas and then get checked there. You are right in that we have few dedicated check areas, but then if we had more the illegal operators would just avoid that bit of road, far better to have a more mobile checking system if you ask me.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Roger Jones
400 fatalities, eh? That's over 10% of the total killed on UK roads. Looks like it should be right at the top of the priority list for the authorities, and perhaps TU's post confirms that it is.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Collos25
The number of checks made in the UK by VOSA is minute compared to those made by the German authorities.One centre on the M62 operates 1 day a week and they are lucky if they examine 10 vehicles.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
But as HJ pointed out, the foreign trucks don't just appear out of thin air, they have to transit other countries to get here. So how come they are not picked up in Germany on their way through? I am assuming it is because as a % the UK must check a similar amount of vehicles, but there will always be some that get through, unless there was a 100% checking procedure at ports, but that would be uneconomical and no doubt our european neighbors would complain that it was unfair!!!
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Big Bad Dave
I've seen trucks waiting to cross the German border from Poland on a Monday morning and the queue has been more than five miles long. I don't know how thoroughly or how many are checked or what they're looking for but they wave the private traffic through and stop the trucks. I remember feeling very sorry them as I was driving in the other direction wondering when the queue was going to end.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - v0n
I've seen trucks waiting to cross the German border from Poland
on a Monday morning and the queue has been more than
five miles long.


These are not evaluated for safety but contraband though. Loosing borders along entire Oder line will sooner or later result in massive job losses and job migrations for German customs and border control staff. They are almost entirely surrounded by EU, so there isn't that many places they can go. As far as I know they managed to secure themselves a right to remain in service for as long as illegal transit and movement of illegal immigrants from Russia and eastern states remains a problem, at least at certain level. So, for their own good, to keep their jobs as long as possible they are now much more thorough and overzelous when it comes to checking HGVs and TIRs going both ways...

It's not only commercial transit. Last year, traveling in regular hatchback, with British plates I was stopped twice by german customs patrol cars, within 60 miles from eastern border, escorted to a Zoll garage, told to unpack the car completely and the car, myself and all my luggage was sniffed by dogs, searched and tested for contact with drugs. Not only they are not interested in your travel schedule and the fact you have to catch ferry at very specific time, but they also get more aggressive and annoyed when they don't find find any extra cigarettes or alcohol above maximum quote levels...

Back to foreign lorries. If they are responsible for 10% of deaths on British roads... how come it never surfaced as a problem on the continent? Do these lorries just magically appear in Dover out of some sort of hell gate to wreck havoc or is it first sip of British water that makes them drive like loonies all over UK roads but not anywhere else?
--------------------
[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Big Bad Dave
"Back to foreign lorries. If they are responsible for 10% of deaths on British roads... how come it never surfaced as a problem on the continent? Do these lorries just magically appear in Dover out of some sort of hell gate to wreck havoc or is it first sip of British water that makes them drive like loonies all over UK roads but not anywhere else?"

My wife and I run a small recruitment agency tied into a UK logistics company and we've been processing a lot of Polish lorry drivers recently. Most of them are qualified to ADR dangerous cargo and many are licensed for miltary cargo and ammunitions. These guys seem to know exactly what they're doing.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
These guys seem to know exactly what they're doing.

Yep, driving down the wages of the British drivers, to which you are helping and taking a nice tidy profit for your troubles no doubt!!!
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Big Bad Dave
Knew it was a bad idea to raise that here.

But yes.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Adam {P}
>>Yep, driving down the wages of the British drivers, to which you are helping and taking a nice tidy profit for your troubles no doubt!!!<<

The man has to live TU.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Big Bad Dave
"The man has to live TU."

Yeah he's got an overspecced 3-litre car to pay for.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Lud
Yeah he's got an overspecced 3-litre car to pay for.


And a lot of appalling habits by his own account...
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Adam {P}
>>Yeah he's got an overspecced 3-litre car to pay for.<<

And copious amounts of custard.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Statistical outlier
TU, I presume you shop only in Harrods or Waitrose, and only ever buy the most expensive of any selection of goods?

Otherwise, welcome to the real world. For any commodity, and a truck driver is, for these purposes only, a commodity, people will buy the cheapest that is fit for purpose. Any other strategy may work in the short term, but will ensure that you go bust in the medium to long term, as others who are not so high minded undercut you. British Truck drivers are going to disappear, they are not going to be willing to work for the wages that the eastern Europeans will. Nothing we can do about it, at least BBD is making a living from the situation.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
Gordon, well as long as BBD can make a living that is ok, I would hate to think that by him putting xx amount of people out of work he could not make a tidy profit for himself!!!!

The problem is there are far more issues when using cheap imported labour then just undercutting wages. It should be about road safety, how many of BBD's drivers have had even a small amount of training on UK roads before being told to go out and get on with it? How much English do they speak or understand? how much of the highway code do they know? How much of UK road law do they know let alone understand?

Many UK Logistics companies have actually stopped employing foreign labour as it has worked out more expensive for them - they have more accidents and can't do as much work in the same time - but other companies keep employing them!!!!!

I know BBD is just filling a need in the market, but that does not mean I can't disagree with it. In my job I see how many companies (smaller ones) are going under because of the cheap importing of labour, and don't forget that the money they earn is not spent here, it is spent at home and as such our whole economy looses out, but thats ok cos BBD can now afford to put some more petrol in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Big Bad Dave
Eeeek. That's me outcast.

So it might sting a bit when I say that as soon as the next round of countries join the EU I'm going to take my business there where labour is cheaper and the profit margins are higher.

And upgrade to a V8
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Adam {P}
V12 surely. When you have a V6 you upgrade in blocks of 6 cylinders.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
So it might sting a bit when I say that as
soon as the next round of countries join the EU I'm
going to take my business there where labour is cheaper and
the profit margins are higher.
And upgrade to a V8


You might be the one moaning like I am, Isn't Poland one of the few countries that is going to allow unlimited immigration? The tables may well turn! So don't go getting that V8 just yet, might end up having to get a Smart car instead.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Big Bad Dave
I?m a designer by trade TU, I know what it is to see salaries eroded by any old secretary that can work a Mac.

I have been screwed over many times.

But the world doesn't owe me a living, I just get on as best I can
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Statistical outlier
TU, you may well be correct, and if it is more expensive then you can be sure that the jobs will return to the UK.

My point was that he is not putting people out of work any more than a manager moving simple volume manufacturing out of the UK to China (for example) is putting people out of work. If they did not take these actions, then their product would become uncompetitive, and the entire company would go under. By losing some jobs, you hopefully don't lose all of them.

There is no point in criticising BBD for serving a customer need. His UK customers presumably are trying ot keep their business afloat by shedding costs. If he is involved in processing and vetting foreign drivers, ensuring that they are legal to operate here, then surely that is better than no control?
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
I fully understand his reasons for doing what he does, but I don't agree with them - I can see all the commercial arguments for what is happening, but again I don't agree with them. But we also want safe roads, and putting drivers who may not be trained to as high a standard as UK drivers are trained on the roads is going to possibly cost us all dear in the long run!!!
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - rover 75
Returnig home from Eastbourne on Sunday (M25 , A22-M1 -Luton) There were large numbers of LT and PL trucks going north , I only recall seing 2 uk lorries. This is a regular journey for me and I don't remember seing this quantity of trucks before I comment not on their condition , drivers , but numbers.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Collos25
In answer to HJ they are probably ok when they arrive in the UK but then maybe go 12 months without seeing any form of service,lets face it a UK firm wants its goods delivered he is only interested in time and price safety will be well down his list.I doubt if some of these trucks are even insured , taxed or the driver has a pucker licence upto this year you could get a Polish HGV licence extremely easily and Albanian ones probably come in corn flake packets.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - artful dodger {P}
On Saturday I drove from home to Ashford along the M20. Going there were saw lots of foreign lorries and only 2 British (delivery lorries for Sainsbury's and Tescos). On our return there were again plenty of continentals and 2 British HGV's. We started noting where the lorries came from as a game to amuse my 9 year old daughter. We definitely spotted lorries from France, Belguim, Holland, Germany, Austria, Poland, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Slovakia, Slovenia, Lithuania and Greece.


--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - IanJohnson
So why don't VOSA do vehicle checks at the ports? Just turn back any that have defects!
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Jonathan {p}
Or even while on the ferries...
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Red Baron
Jurisdiction. They would need to be in UK waters.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - madf
"Around 400 people are killed annually in UK lorry accidents "

So definitely lorries kill..

Ban them or have lorry cameras...

Seriously it's simple and self funding
Inspection plus if any serious defect found, lorry impounded. Pay fine equivalent to 50% of new price to release it.

That will solve the problem asap...
madf
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - bignick

Foreign lorry drivers are putting lives at risk by overworking, using
vehicles with serious faults and overloading their trucks, a police chief
has said."


Er - I may be being naive but are'nt overworking, overloading and operating unroadworthy vehicles all the sort of thing the police should be arresting the drivers for? And prosecuting the operators, and impounding vehicles and cargos?

So why doesnt this police chief stop whining to the press and make sure his officers do their jobs?


BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Robbie
By Deborah James Daily Post Staff


THE number of traffic officers patrolling Merseyside's roads has halved in 10 years.

The number of officers whose sole priority it is to enforce road safety has dropped from 345 ten years ago, to just 178 today.


The above report in the Liverpool daily Post exemplifies the reason.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Adam {P}
Funny you should mention that Robbie. I drove into the city centre before and saw 1 panda car in the entire stretch.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Westpig
because the govt.......... has dictated that police forces will concentrate on 'priorities'...... and these priorities do not include traffic related matters

it is really very simple...........political interference in an area that never used to have it
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - bignick
By Deborah James Daily Post Staff
THE number of traffic officers patrolling Merseyside's roads has halved in
10 years.
The number of officers whose sole priority it is to enforce
road safety has dropped from 345 ten years ago, to just
178 today.
The above report in the Liverpool daily Post exemplifies the reason.


178 officers in teams of 4 = 44 teams and 2 officers off sick!

44 teams = say 220 lorries stopped and inspected per day (5 per team) = 1500 per week.

of course this means pulling traffic police off important duties like manning speed traps, giving lectures to schoolkids, cruising up and down the m-ways making everybody else brake suddenly when they see them etc.....
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Robbie
I think your calculations are somewhat suspect. Rest days; sick leave; annual leave, will paint a rather different picture. Give Merseyside Police their due they don't appear to operate many speed traps. Plus, not a huge number of miles of motorway for them to cruise down.

Adam, I actually saw a motor cycle cop in Prescot on Saturday. Haven't seen one in Merseyside for years.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Adam {P}
Wow! I've not seen a cop bike full stop for years!

The police Jag did follow me off the M57 and through Prescot for a bit the other day. I must look suspicious.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - bignick
I think your calculations are somewhat suspect. Rest days; sick
leave; annual leave, will paint a rather different picture.


It was a bit of a "back of a beermat" calculation - really just making the point that as usual in these discussions what is really at the heart of the debate is NOT the polices lack of resources but their lack of will to enforce some areas of the law.

BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Robbie
It was a bit of a "back of a beermat" calculation
- really just making the point that as usual in these
discussions what is really at the heart of the debate is
NOT the polices lack of resources but their lack of will
to enforce some areas of the law.


I'd agree with you on that, but with a paucity of resources there is not a lot they can do anyway.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - yorkiebar
I think what has possibly been missed is that a lot of the continental lorries and trailers are in better condition than the average british 1 !

Possibly because the british independant transporter (and his drivers) are competing against such unfair cheap labour (made to do extra hours to earn sufficient money etc) from abroad they are cuttting all the costs they can!

new equipment, maintenance, repairs, parts etc etc etc.

Nothing wrong with competition i agree (if its fair). But if we dont protect our jobs soon there will be no jobs to provide money to pay for the goods these other countries are bringing in.

We are in a spiral of downward labour rewards(thanks to cheaper imported labour), against higher pricing goods, to make us more competitive world wide. Trouble is , when we reach the competitive pricing we cant afford to make the stuff here anymore so it gets exported too!

Until and unless we impose high import duties (at least from outside the eu) then it is going to get worse before it gets better. But keep your head in the sand and remember how important it is to pay lower wages and you should keep maklmg profit for some years yet!

Every single employer who moves jobs, production, telephones etc abroad is partly responsible; not just the 1 on here getting his slagging! remember the made in britain logo? It made us better off then didnt it? even made in europe is getting harder to find now too!
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Honestjohn
A lot of pre-show discussion, but did anyone actually watch it? I caught the last 15 minutes. VOSA was complaining about under resourcing. Dr Ladyman said they were making the best use of the resources available. But the VOSA guys came over as good blokes doing a good job, making proper checks in what seems to be a cat and mouse game in which the operators simply take a calculated risk with the odds against getting nicked and the drivers the pawns.

HJ
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - henry k
I did watch it.
It is available to view at
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/default....#
and click on video the latest programme.

Certainly was a bit worrying as there are so many continental trucks on the few bits of motorway I use.
I agree the VOSA guys were doing a good job especially coping with the language problem.
The problems found from the small number of trucks they check could mean a very big problem is being hidden.
IMO Tacho checks and tyre checks do not need the full force of VOSA. I suggest this aspect would certainly give good value to any future investment.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - bell boy
i watched the show and also speak to vosa employee's quite regularly, they are all good hard working guys/girls and are always understaffed as like everywhere they have unrealistic targets to keep especially in places like the glc because the wages do not account for the north south divide.
They do an unthanked job because they are capable of stopping people making a living
They are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont (unsung heroes in a way ) i cant imagine many boast what they do for a living down the pub
The programme was a real eyeopener i never understood how real the problem of these dangerous vehicles really was until they stopped 200 vehicles and put prohibitions on something like 75 of them
Pretty sobering stuff i thought
i thought ladyman was a waste of space .
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Wales Forester
As Oldman says Mr Ladyman was a complete waste of space, he avoided directly answering the questions Fiona Bruce put to him and generally looked and sounded like he couldn't care less. He almost had a permanent grin on his face. Maybe he would have had a different point of view had one of the bereaved family members featured been interviewing him.

VOSA do a top job with limited resources and despite Mr Ladyman's denial, all the evidence suggests that this is the tip of a very large iceberg.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - R75
Yep, watched the whole show - VOSA came out in good light, Ladyman just appeared as he always does not giving 2 hoots. Easy way to solve it, charge the foreign operators to use our roads, use that money to police them, problem could be made far less of a problem.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Vincent de Marco
Yep, driving down the wages of the British drivers............


Such things happen all over the world.
Would you work in a Polish sawmill for an equivalent of 150 quid ? Yes, paid once a month... Guys from Ukraine do. You?ve got the Poles on your neck, we?ve got the Russians, the Rus have others from China, Kaukaz and God knows where else. You can?t stop it. It?s global.


- - - - - - -
Free enterprise is the basis of western economy.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - madf
I watched the program. VOSA came out well BUT
and it's a BIG but

Any service organisation like VOSA ALWAYS needs more resources.

"Work expands to fill the resources available " is still true.

I watched the VOSA checks and they were very thorough. FAR TOO thorough imo.

After all one bald tyre.. and that's it. No need to inspect anymore. Just stop then and issue prohibition notice. Then inspect again when tyre fixed. Another defect? same result.

No need at all to do 100% inspection once a vehicle has faile don any critical point.

Be intransigent and stop them.. after a couple of episodes the message will get across.

I watche dthe debate with a driver over leaking and inactive brake hoses. Took 10 minutes to do what should be a "fix it properly.. until it is , don't move"

Personally I thought VOSA had the same mentaility as a jobsworth who was looking to take as long as possible on a job.. I can see their point but adopting the above policy would imo treble throughput and force more safety consciousness from drivers..

Ladyman imo showed the usual level of competence expected from the current government....on a par with the Home Office? :-(((

madf
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - IanJohnson
At risk of this becoming a speeding topic - what can we expect of a Road Safety Minister whose reported action on getting 9 points for speeding was . . .to buy a speed camera detector!

BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Aprilia
In the '80's and 90's British companies increased profits by shifting manufacture overseas. Now they are importing cheap labour to cut the costs of services. The Great and Good, generally lawyers, doctors, accountants etc are in protected jobs with high barriers to entry, so they benefit from the falling cost of unskilled and skilled-craft labour - they are all for what is happening. The government permit it because its what business wants - they are always after someone cheaper. Witness the Gate Gourmet dispute at Heathrow - the previously 'cheap' Sikh women workers being replaced by even cheaper East Europeans. Manpower is never cheap enough for these people. One of the worst things I read recently was that the CITB (Construction Industries Training Board) have opened up a training centre in Poland to train Poles before they come to the UK - very patriotic of them. No doubt the top brass of these organisations will have a retirement bolt hole lined up in France or Spain (because Britain 'has got so bad recently') and will not have to use the overloaded state health and education systems.
Even banks are in on this now. A friend of mine owns a hotel near Leicester - he is almost permanently fully occupied with long-term residents from India. They are being brought into the UK as IT workers for a major bank.
Universities are at it too. They recruite overseas students on to courses costing £12000. The student pays just a £500 deposit in his home country and gets a UK visa - once in the UK they can 'disappear'. I was actually told this by an Indian guy living in London - he thought £500 was great value for a visa!
My own belief is that you don't increase prosperity by paying less. By buying in cheap workers profit goes up but the tax take goes down. How much does someone on very low wages contribute to the tax system - does it even cover the cost of the public services that they consume? We (and possibly Eire) on the only EU countries taking this soft approach. I know from my own experience in Germany that they are incredibly thorough about policing their labour market. They are also rigorous about pulling in trucks (and cars) with East European plates. Germany has much less of a problem with illegal working than we do - its now very much an integral part of the economy here.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Xileno {P}
When the next recession comes - and it can't be long now - I suspect a lot of these workers will go back.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Vincent de Marco
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Lud
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Aprilia
To an extent greed IS good - but it needs to be moderated and controlled by government. The problem is that in the UK (despite all the moaning from corporations etc) we actually have minimal control. Even in the US the profitability of certain companies (like power utilities) is capped by their government at below current UK levels of profitability, for example.
The current way we are heading, with UK plc's addiction to cheap labour, is leading to a polarised and disintegrating society. My wish for the UK is that we should be more than just a place which is simply 'good to do business in', but that also can offer a good quality of life. Sadly many countries now offer a more enticing lifestyle even if their GDP is not quite as high as ours. Unfortunately I think we are now beyond the point of no return. For the working classes life is getting more difficult and insecure, and the young Kev and Tracy are locked into council estates, benefits and crime - aspirations toward home ownership must seem pretty futile. The employers prefer young Marek who is willing to work for a lot less (for now), more compliant and turns up for work promptly. Whether he'll still be like that in a few year's time when he becomes eligible for benefits and employment rights is in doubt though IMHO - weren't all these people bought up in the dreadful communist system where there was no work ethic and people became accustomed to getting paid for doing nothing.....
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - Xileno {P}
What a bleak prospect. I'm packing my bags and going home.
BBC1 1930hrs. Lethal foreign trucks - yorkiebar
Dont always agree with Aprilia but in this subject I am totally.

I too think it is past the point of no return though; thats the worrying bit !
 

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